Monday, March 17, 2014

The Trouble with Sovereignty: Buying a Pig in a Poke

"When ye proffer the pigge, open the poke." is an idiom as old as the hills  standing the test of time, warning us to be wary of "An offering or deal that is foolishly accepted without being examined first.
By the way, a 'poke' is from the French ''poque' a sack and the phrase reminds us not to buy something sight unseen.

Now I've no problem with sovereignty as a concept for Quebec.
Self-determination is a universal right and let's face it, Quebec represents a 'distinct society'  living in a somewhat definable geographic area (we'll not discuss borders here.)

But opting for independence is a BIG step, something to be considered seriously, the consequences dramatic and irreversible.

When you are an impoverished nation, seeking independence is not much of a risk.
Take for example East Timor, one of the newest members of the family of nations. About 40% of the  population lives below the international poverty line – which means living on less than U.S. $1.25 per day and about 50% of the population is illiterate. The country sits 134th on the Human Development Index.
Not much of a risk going independent, I imagine. 

But even basket case countries with nothing to lose, sometimes actually do worse after independence.
South Sudan  is another twenty-first century example of an impoverished nation declaring independence after a referendum where an astonishing 98.83% voted in favour of independence. Unfortunately, it hasn't really worked out that well with a war of succession ravaging the country.

But in the end, one can understand that those living in these cesspools would vote for any change, considering their hopeless situation.
But in Quebec, nobody can make the case that we have nothing to lose if all turns out badly, because the province enjoys one of the highest standards of living in the world.

If you work at McDonalds or Tim Hortons, quitting your job is not much of a risk, but if you are a successful executive making a large six figure salary, quitting your job on the if-come, a decidedly risky and foolhardy affair.

Now who of we sovereigntists or federalists would buy a home sight unseen?
A thinking person would consider things like the location, the size, the layout, schools and transportation and above all THE PRICE.

I'm obviously not a sovereigntist, but if I was I'd certainly want to know what independence from Canada entailed before I committed to voting to split up.
 I, like you, have too much to lose if the decision turns out wrong, so I'd like as much information about the concept as I could obtain before taking the plunge.

This is where I take issue with sovereigntists and particularly those advocating for the project blindly without a clue as to what will be.

We haven't heard much from Pauline and the PQ, but what we have heard is frightening, a distinct lack of forethought and a manifest deficiency in planning.

How on Earth can anyone vote for the unknown and risk it all on the if-come. It boggles the mind.

The latest round of nonsense is Pauline's declaration that the new country of Quebec will use the Canadian dollar, this with or without the approval of Canada itself, permission to do so, not likely.
Now some sovereigntist leaders remain adamant that Canada can't stop it from using the Canadian dollar, but Canada can certainly make the process awfully uncomfortable, Canadian dollars not quite as bountiful and widespread as the U.S. dollar.
Worse, Pauline's  proclamation that Quebec would seek a seat at the Bank of Canada is also awfully presumptuous, an idea so foolish that it underscores the separatist leaders utter misapprehension of what Canadians think and who Canadians are.
It goes to her complete ignorance of the utter disdain Canadians would likely display towards Quebec post-Canada.
Tourism? Open borders? A European-like union? ......Is she smoking crack?
"No one can stop Quebec from using the Canadian dollar," former Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe says in defence of Pauline Marois' claim that an independent Quebec would retain the loonie and request a seat at the Bank of Canada.
"All of the economists will tell you that it is impossible to stop a country from using the Canadian dollar,"
Last week on the campaign trail, Marois was firm on these points:

  1. Quebec would continue using Canadian currency
  2. Request a seat at the Bank of Canada should a sovereignty referendum end in a "yes" vote
  3. The border between Canada and Quebec should also remain open if Quebec secedes
Duceppe told Question Period that Marois' was right to make all three points. For example, if Canadians continue to be allowed to carry more than one passport, Duceppe said, the courtesy should extend to residents of an independent Quebec.  Link
I demand my Canadian passport, the Loonie and I want my MTV! GODAMMIT!
Quite the impassioned plea for conserving Canadian institutions from Quebec's most ardent separatist.

Sounds like dependence rather than independence. According to Duceppe, an independent Quebec will use Canadian money and its  citizens will travel under a Canadian passport. Perhaps Canada should keep equalization going and continue funding Radio-Canada and pay deadbeats in the Gaspé not to fish. Talk about incoherence!

Again the question is why all these connections to Canada?
Probably because these nonsensical ideas make sovereignty more appealing to the reluctant, nothing more than a strategy to fool Quebecers into voting for something they can never get.
Let us not forget Parizeau's assertion that he was going to fool Quebecers into sovereignty, like 'lobsters in a trap.'

The truth is that after sovereignty, Canadians will hate Quebecers at the worst, ignore them at best.
Interact with them as good neighbours? Not going to happen.
It's more likely that a virtual  if not physical Poutine Wall will be erected between Canada and Quebec, with travel back and forth for tourism a pipe dream conceived by an idiot.

By the way, that ferocious defence of Quebec's right to use the Canadian dollar flies in the face of logic and indeed the very policies that the PQ defended until recently.

Have we forgotten the debate over the 'Dutch Disease' question where Quebec separatists were claiming that the Canadian dollar was overvalued because of oil and therefore penalized the Quebec manufacturing industry?
"The phenomenon is called "Dutch disease" and works as follows: the more oil production is an important part of the domestic industry and exports more oil and gas push up the value of the currency.

High currency increases the price of other goods and services exported, making them less competitive abroad, resulting in job losses for non-oil sectors. In addition, the oil industry employment with high wages employees, which leads to higher wages in other industries, also making their products more expensive and therefore less competitive, hence more job losses. I cited a study by three economists saying that "up to 54% of manufacturing jobs lost in Canada between 2002 and 2007 were due to Dutch disease." Applied in Quebec, this ratio provides 55,000 jobs lost.
Jean-François Lisée,
"The problem is that in 30 years, the oilsands could be much less important. And we will have done away with industries in Quebec, "worries Rodrigue Tremblay, professor emeritus of economics at the University of Montreal. Link
So in fact until last week, sovereigntists were saying that one of the prime goals of independence was to get rid of the over-valued Canadian dollar, a so-called hindrance to Quebec prosperity. 
Now they have utterly reversed themselves, embracing the Loonie as the currency of choice in an independent Quebec.
In the French press the word 'incoherence' is a favourite catchword, used to describe 'inconsistency' in policy, something that the sovereigntists and the PQ demonstrate a mastery of.
It is likely that a cold hard look at the potential value of a Quebec dollar, frightened the separatists to reconsider.
A report by François Barrière, vice-president of currencies at the Laurentien Bank of Canada predicted the Quebec dollar to be worth 73¢, right off the bat, something deemed unacceptable by separatist strategists  in the debate for hearts and minds.   Link{fr}

But how can the complete reversal of the position on currency go so unnoticed, unchallenged and un-debated? It smacks of amateurism.

So many of the positions on sovereignty just don't stand up to the most rudimentary of examinations, like the theory that Quebec would save money by getting rid of costly bilingualism, operating in just one language, French.
It's an easy sell to those eager to believe, until one examines the truth, which is that Quebec lives in English North America and would have to interact in English just the same.

Let us consider the price of a movie ticket which today is the same in Quebec City as is in Sudbury. Yet the Quebec version of the movie is dubbed into French, the cost borne by consumers across Canada, where in fact English Canadians pay for 77% of the cost of bilingualism.
This translation cost for Canadian and American products will be borne by Quebecers alone in an independent Quebec.
In fact, disconnecting 'national' pricing will have an adverse effect of Quebec consumer prices, including everything from software to Corn flakes to cars.
Today Canadian consumer prices are disconnected from those in the USA and we can see the adverse effect, with a car built in Windsor, Canada costing up to $5,000 more in Toronto than Hawaii.

This same effect will manifest itself as Quebec becomes its own distinct market. 
It doesn't auger well for consumers, where in stores like Costco, prices today are higher than in American locations, largely due to reduced expenses, south of the border. 
The same will apply to Quebec where prices will be higher than in Canada because of higher taxes and operating expenses. No longer will Canada level the consumer price playing field for Quebec by robbing Peter to pay Pierre.

Quebec sovereigntists have always used the  cherry picking option to show how Quebec is badly served by federalism, pointing to those certain programs where Quebec gets less of its fair share, while ignoring where it gets more and the balance of benefit, some $17 billion to the good.

In fact it doesn't fill one with confidence to know that the leader of the sovereignty movement doesn't even know how much equalization payments Quebec will get next year, mistaking the total federal transfer (an admission that she is aware of the transfer) of some $17 billion, instead of the $9 billion plus which is the equalization payment. 

Jean-François Lisée, another light bulb, tells us that the PQ is acting responsibly by running up the deficit to pay off the debt. It's scary.

Mention that Radio-Canada receives 40% of the CBC budget or that Quebec sucks out 40% of the unemployment fund and all that is offered in rebuttal is blank stares by separatist apologists who universally conclude that these asymmetrical payments are reasonable and fair.
Some idiot sovereigntists even maintain that the equalization payment Quebec receives is a plot to somehow keep Quebec down and beholding.

What will be in an independent Quebec is of vital importance and interest for those making the decision, the voters of Quebec.
Recently a panel of so-called sovereigntist experts came to the conclusion that Quebec would be just fine after sovereignty, all without ever considering the Canada 'effect' and the relocation of perhaps hundreds of thousand of taxpayers and businesses.

The truth is that nobody really knows what will happen and it is frightening that Quebecers are willing to risk everything on an unpredictable future.

It can go okay or it can go dreadfully wrong and a risk that I am shocked that so many people are willing to make on blind and idiot faith.

I don't want to sound the trumpet of gloom and doom, because if there is a plan that makes sense I'd like to hear it and I'm sure Quebecers should want to hear it as well.

But until then, voting YES is like buying a pig in a poke, not a good idea 400 years ago and not a particularly good idea now.


  1. Anonymous Buster of Shit ArgumentsMonday, March 17, 2014 at 7:53:00 AM EDT

    Marois gets owned and runs away from a 24-yeard old girl:

    1. I can see why she only wanted to do one debate. Yeesh.

  2. UN GARS BIEN SYMPATHIQUE DE FRANKFORTMonday, March 17, 2014 at 8:39:00 AM EDT

    Not sure if I would compare South Sudan with a future quebekistan, however socio-economic degradation IS likely in the near term after a yes at a referendum. quebec separatists can claim whatever they want, at the end of the day the ROC will decide about common borders, currency, etc.

  3. UN GARS BIEN SYMPATHIQUE DE FRANKFORTMonday, March 17, 2014 at 8:55:00 AM EDT

    After reading the article I think that quebec leaving Canada is a good financial move for the ROC.
    As well, several things would have to happen: no passport & no Canadian dollar. Get your own, quebec.
    Next quebec's share of the debt. That would have to be repaid to Canada by any of three ways: monthly payments with interest, clawback some territory and/or revenues from quebec's natural ressources exploitation. Or a blend of all three.

    All we need now is a new Canadian political party that will work towards kicking quebec out since les habitants quebecois are spineless and would probably not have an overwhelming (70%+) yes referendum. Again, the ROC would have to shoulder the load...

  4. "It goes to her complete ignorance of the utter disdain Canadians would likely display towards Quebec post-Canada."

    I disagree with this. First of all, you probably need to divide the definition of "Canadians" into three categories: government, capital and the rest.

    The rest, us average people, would adjust very quickly. As much as we think about Quebec now (which isn't all that much) we would get over our emotional reaction and get back to feeling that way. It's a good tourist destination and a cheap place for our kids to spend a few years at pretty good universities.

    Government will go through negotiations and adjust. Governments adjust to change all the time, they accept foreign countries starting up and breaking up and they deal with things like NAFTA.

    And capital has mostly made the adjustment. I think the reason so many head offices left Quebec in the late 70s wasn't because they were worried about the province becoming officially French, it's because they were worried about industries being nationalized. The PQ were socialists back then, remember, (the FLQ were welcomed in Cuba, the ultimate bogeyman of seizing assets and there were a lot of socialist and Marxist revolutions in the 70s throughout Africa and Latin America) and what happened to Montreal Light, Heat and Power was ingrained in Anglo Montreal.

    But those things have been dealt with. Sure, there will be changes to banking (will the RBC fall into the same category as Citibank or the BNP?), there will be a Quebec version of the CRTC regulating access to American content (will Canadian content be treated exactly the same as "foreign" content?) and there will be some kind of Foreign Investment Review Board (Quebecor is on the Toronto Stock exchange, so it seems likely a deal will be worked out).

    So, I don't think there will be much animosity from the ROC because it won't really be affected. In fact, the ROC has never been in a better negotiating position than it is now. The question is, how hard will it negotiate? Well, so far there hasn't been a single reason offered why the ROC should be anything but hard-nosed.

    1. Wow - Jay !! I must say that your ignorance is quite bliss. If you think that there won't be a massive emotional backlash against Quebec (and the French language) in the ROC, you're living in the same utopian world as the separatists. If you think companies left because they feared being nationalized, once again, you're dead wrong. Many left because they didn't want to deal with all the Gov't red tape with the NEW Anti-English Gov't and their invasive language law, as well as didn't want to have their head office in a potentially "Foreign" land should Quebec decide to separate.
      The ROC haven't had much of a negative reaction towards Quebec since they haven't felt the impact of separation. If you're drunk enough to think the price you'll pay for education in Quebec today will remain the same in an independent Quebec, wow, pass on whatever you're drinking cause the reality is that the price of education will skyrocket !!!

    2. Companies are multi-national, they deal with different languages and red-tape all over the world. If there's money to made in Quebec they'll make it.

      As for the people, here's a stat to keep in mind - the daily circulation of the Montreal Gazette is about 116,000. The daily circulation of Sing Tao, the largest (but not only) Chinese daily in Toronto is 180,000. I don't think Sing Tao has mentioned the Quebec election once.

      What exactly will be the impact of Quebec separation on the ROC? Sure, it'll be tough for anyone in Quebec who doesn't speak French but outside Quebec? What backlash could there possible be? Less tourism?

    3. Mike is dead on Jay - the breakup will be hard, long and divisive. Right now the division exists only in quebec but will spread like a cancer. Boycott quebec is just one movement with a few thousand which will grow into millions on tourism, quebec products and any exports they make to the ROC. They will hardly walk away from this battle unscathed. When Marois says five years of hard financial times, she's lying again. That will last a lot longer and their precious daycare and cheap university fees will be gone. Resentment will be fierce for a hell of a long time especially if the ROC feel any of this backlash on the stock market and their RRSPs which is bound to happen.

    4. Yes, it will have a generation long effect. In Quebec. But the ROC has already adjusted to most negative effects. The stock market goes up and down, it will continue to go up and down. There's pressure on all our retirements from all kinds of things but almost all are global.

      Things are very different now than they were when Trudeau or Chretien ran Ottawa. Yes, we feel bad for people in Quebec opposed to separation if it happens (and I work with Francophones in Montreal who are very worried about what will happen to interest rates on their mortgages and tuition fees for their kids and those are legitimate worries - in Quebec) but there will be very few negative effects outside of Quebec.

      And some real positives. I have relatives in the RCMP for whom the top level of jobs were always out of reach because their French isn't quite good enough. Anything in the federal government that has been called "bilingual" has been reserved for a Francophone who has learned English.

      In politics the NDP would have made Bill Blaikie leader if he could speak French well enough but they had to settle for their second choice. Even the Conservatives would have as much bigger field to chose from.

      Other than a sentimental or emotional attachment, Quebec separating has almost no negative effect on Canada.

    5. Jay read this article and pay attention to the date it was published. Before this Bloomberg statement, Harper didn't give a rat's ascii what was happening in QC. He sure paid attention after and so should the ROC ...

    6. "It's a good tourist destination and a cheap place for our kids to spend a few years at pretty good universities."
      I'm not going to make the case that Quebec will be to Canada as Cuba was to the US for a very long time, but it will definitely be close. Quebec will be remembered as a province that sucked the rest of the country dry, all the while whining and denigrating the rest of Canada, until they decided to break up the country that most Canadians hold dear.

      As to sending your kids to universities, I don't imagine most of the English ones will be quite as illustrious in an independent Quebec the huge brain drain that will follow separation, and tuition costs are based on where you're from. International students get whacked with much higher tuition, so it would not be a cheap place to send your kids.

      "I think the reason so many head offices left Quebec in the late 70s wasn't because they were worried about the province becoming officially French, it's because they were worried about industries being nationalized."

      Regardless if this is right, which for the most part I doubt it is, the PQ, before the election was called, was mulling passing laws that would make it very difficult to impossible for company head quarters to move outside of Quebec or for Quebec companies to be taken over by powers outside of Quebec. Either way the fears of the business community will not be assayed because the PQ added PKP to the roster, they are still a party all about protectionism, supporting unions, and adding more language laws, none of which inspires much confidence from business investors.

    7. Of course there would be animosity from the ROC. Do you think they would be happy about the country they are so proud of being torn apart. It's an insult to the veterans from across Canada that fought to keep Quebec free along with the rest of the land, while French Quebecers hid out in the Laurentians, would be furious.
      QUEBEC BELONGS TO ALL CANADIANS. The same way we share in the Alberta oil through transfer payments Canada is indivisible. there will be no separation. It's interesting to investigate but it won't happen. It wasn't just head offices that left Quebec, it was whole industries. they left because the PQ demanded French
      on everything including goods being sold to the rest of North America. We were a forwarding nation. Seventy percent of goods coming into the harbour were meant were meant to be forwarded to the rest of North America. PQ wanted everything translated into French. If they were not produced in Quebec they could be translated back to English for exporting to N.A. and the ROC. A stupid expensive to the companies for which was offered no compensation. McDonald Tobacco led the fight. Tobacco companies in Montreal had had a total of more than 25,000 employees. It was taken for granted that everyone would be happy to cooperate.

      "Companies are multi-national, they deal with different languages and red-tape all over the world. If there's money to made in Quebec they'll make it."
      Ridiculous, the reason we can't get companies to invest here now is just the opposite to what you say..
      "Other than a sentimental or emotional attachment, Quebec separating has almost no negative effect on Canada".These two statements show the author is extremely immature and smokes sheep manure. Ed

    8. now the "author" is immature. Who are you referring to as "the author", Ed? Do you mean Phil, the creator of this blog?

    9. Can you two declare a truce? It's getting tiresome reading your personal attacks on each other.

    10. @ Mr. Sauga: I'm just acting as referee -- Ed was referring to Jay, the author of those quotes, not the author of this blog.

  5. A sovereign Québec would be a hell on earth for those whose first language is not French. I do not understand why so many francophones prefer the PQ over the PLQ. Poll after poll puts the PQ ahead of PLQ in preference amongst francophones. The latest Léger poll was 45% for the PQ and 27% for the PLQ. This is scary and it is reminscent of the 1930s in Germany.

    1. Anonymous Buster of Shit ArgumentsMonday, March 17, 2014 at 9:55:00 AM EDT

      @Anonymous, if you could kindly choose a screen name for us to refer to you to, so we can keep track of conversations, it would be appreciated.

      Following up on the numbers you presented, I think that the polarization of Quebec's Francophones clearly demonstrates what harm the separation movement has brought on.

      Check out the staggering numbers when comparing tendencies of tolerance among Franco and non-Francos:

  6. UN GARS BIEN SYMPATHIQUE DE FRANKFORTMonday, March 17, 2014 at 9:57:00 AM EDT

    Who is boycotting Sun newspapers and its news TV channel?

    1. Anonymous Buster of Shit ArgumentsMonday, March 17, 2014 at 10:00:00 AM EDT

      I for one am doing it. The only time I visit any Quebecor-owned sites is to monitor HOW they're reporting the news, and not the content itself.

      Despite what PKP insists, the situation speaks for itself - his outlets clearly favor the PQ and use tricky language to sabotage all the other parties.

    2. @a bs argument

      "I for one am doing it. The only time I visit any Quebecor-owned sites is to monitor..."

      right, you boycott, but you still go. haha.

      "...his outlets clearly favor the PQ and use tricky language..."

      give examples of tricky language please.

    3. "Who is boycotting Sun newspapers and its news TV channel?"
      Hard to boycott something when I wouldn't read that JDM level rag mag anyway.

  7. UN GARS BIEN SYMPATHIQUE DE FRANKFORTMonday, March 17, 2014 at 10:04:00 AM EDT

    The Gatineau area, on the days following a yes win at a referendum would see a significant hike in the region's unemployment rate. 10 000s of quebecois that work for the federal public force would lose their jobs and a down spiral of indirect job losses. So other regions in quebec would also see a similar faith.

    @Editor: Could you have a poll on here to establish how badly separatists want/need an independent quebec?
    Questions such as: "Would you vote yes at a referendum knowing that in an independent quebec you would be unemployed?"

    1. Some of those Quebecois who voted Oui un 1995 were under the impression that they would continue crossing the bridges every day to their Federal government jobs.

  8. I had to stop to comment on the Question Period show featuring Gilles Duceppe. He lied through his teeth, and there were points I was laughing and thinking "B.S." to myself. GD is OK with Péladeau's entry into the PQ like pigs could fly. I'm sure he was putting his fist through his dining room table and a couple of walls in anger and disgust when he learned of that news. He was anything but "OK". He said the passport is under Canadian law and by Canadian law he could retain his passport, but is that true with a separate Quebec. He was also cooing about use of the Canadian dollar. I don't know who was laughing or the panel that comes on for the last 20 minutes of the show. I'm sure behind the scenes they were having a good bellyaching laugh. At least it was one of their more entertaining hours this time vs the usual. PKP has really thrown a wrench into this campaign, and I love it!

    1. UN GARS BIEN SYMPATHIQUE DE FRANKFORTMonday, March 17, 2014 at 10:36:00 AM EDT

      Who the hell are "les separeux" kidding?
      Only Canadian citizens can have a Canadian passport. Separatists always foot around, which indicates they either have no clue or that they are hypocritely evasive...
      quebecois currency and passports for a "free" quebekistan.
      Queston of the day: Who would be the first country to recognize an independent quebec?

    2. OK, now I've had a chance to read the rest of the article on today's blog.

      Editor, thank you for another deliciously entertaining and very satisfying article. I guess there's nothing like a Quebec election to whet your appetite for some good writing Maybe another minority government will result so we can do this all again in another year or two, but if the separatist government wins, there'll be an overbundance of subjects and I'm sure, should you choose to, you'll be able to post a article everyday, maybe even if you move in with your son and his family in NYC...or better still, come to Ontario. You're most welcome. In T.O. we have shorter winters...well maybe not this year!

    3. "GD is OK with Péladeau's entry into the PQ like pigs could fly. I'm sure he was putting his fist through his dining room table and a couple of walls in anger and disgust when he learned of that news. He was anything but "OK"."

      For the most part because he was probably eyeing Pauline's job and PKP will slip right in and grab it from him!

    4. who: Usurping in Quebec politics is the norm. So is feeding former failed PQ leaders to the wolves and coyotes of the wild. Pauline is definitely on the hit list and her day is approaching.

  9. UN GARS BIEN SYMPATHIQUE DE FRANKFORTMonday, March 17, 2014 at 11:04:00 AM EDT

    Awesomel: "Sudbury poll: Quebec can leave"

    The comments are great!!!

  10. Anonymous Buster of Shit ArgumentsMonday, March 17, 2014 at 11:15:00 AM EDT

    There are only 280 or so signatures needed here to get Louise "Doc" Mailloux out the door:

  11. Le bilinguisme écope à l'Agence du revenu du Canada

    Des fonctionnaires fédéraux travaillant à l'Agence du revenu du Canada (ARC) auraient été informés récemment que leur poste bilingue, auquel est rattachée une prime de 800$, serait dorénavant désigné unilingue anglais.

    Ho! canada

    1. Hmm I wonder what huge waste of money, and massive redundancy, could possibly be why less federal employees need to know French.


    Un restaurant au centre d’une controverse sur les réseaux sociaux

    «Tout le monde lui parlait en anglais, mais il voulait que ce soit un anglais impeccable», a ajouté Robert.

    Ho! canada

    1. English company English employes period!!! All American company's should do the same. Let the French companies hire French people F em all to hell!! Ruining a beautiful province and city...

  13. Anonymous Buster of Shit ArgumentsMonday, March 17, 2014 at 12:36:00 PM EDT


    Barry Morgan is owning the living shit out of Gilles Duceppe on CJAD right now.

    Hope you guys are listening to this gold - Duceppe is getting furious.

  14. Enjeu constitutionnel: Couillard corrige le tir

    Un...Deux...Cha cha cha

    1. I really liked this piece....

      Well who's dancin' the cha cha cha now? Referendum, no referendum, referendum, no referendum, references, no least you all can keep Time, but LEN, would not be giving you a TEN! He'd be sending you home.

      Go Home, you wasted people's time enough already...40years worth.

  15. Je viens d'apprendre que les anglos du Québec ne sont pas considérés comme étant de vrais canadiens dans le ROc...Malheur!
    Étant donné qu'il ne sont pas considérés non plus comme de vrais Québécois au Québec et comme un malheur n'arrive jamais seul,les Américains considèrant les canadiens comme étant des anglos de seconde classe,les anglos du Québec passeraient donc en troisième classe en Amérique.

    Ho malheur de malheur!

    1. It's too bad this makes you happy. It says a lot about what kind of country you want. I think you are in the small minority, even among separatists. Most people don't find such pleasure in things that only affect someone else.

    2. Yes, and I bet it was a scientific national poll with an overwhelming percent of respondents saying that. Oh, wait no, let me guess it was some guy called SR that told you that, right Press 9? lol

    3. OMG - it really is true ---> S.R / Press 9 / Doug Nutt really is Roger Binette!! Look at the writing, it's the exact same style and syntax. Scariest of all the dude is 36 fucking years old and this is how he behaves. Look at all the LOLs he puts when talking about bad shit happening to Anglos & Canada: <<<------- S.R / Press 9

    4. Press 9, you're quite ignorant, incorrect and incoherent as usual. Recent research has indicated that younger, progressive Americans are actually emulating Canadians and adopting our values.

      According to the article, "Canadians are more idealistic, autonomous and self-confident as individuals than Americans."

    5. Les Américains sont désespérés à ce point?

    6. If they were desperate they would start behaving like Quebec separatists, who are seeing their (wet) dream slip away.

    7. You're not a true canadian Durham,i'm really sorry.

    8. @Press 9

      Donc pour résumer la situation il y a les first-class anglo-saxons, soit les Britanniques et les Américains, il y a les second-class anglo-saxons, soit les Australiens et les Anglo-canadiens, et enfin il y a les third-class anglo-saxons, soit les Néo-Zélandais et les Anglo-québécois.

    9. And the toothless Quebecois - particularly the likes of Y.L and Press 9 - have absolutely no class at all.

  16. @S.R.\press9

    Please share where you found this information. With a web address.

  17. Press9 is actually Roger Binette.

    1. And here I was believing it was Sylvain Racine:


    2. Thats awesome guys. You got him this time.

      He ran over to Facebook and deleted his page right away.

      Roger "no teeth" Pinhead

    3. @ Cebeuq

      Roger Binette's Facebook page is still there. I assume you mean that he deleted something on his page which proves he's "Press9"?

  18. Kebek can never have its own currency. We all know that welfare is the largest industry in Kebek. And to keep that industry, Quebec need someone to pay for these cheques. Press9, where are you going to cash your welfare cheques if they are in franc? LOL

  19. Souveraineté: «les deux options se valent», dit Legault

    François Legault a refusé de se dire fédéraliste, cet avant-midi, avant de souligner que les deux options constitutionnelles se valent.


  20. Voila, je ne devoile:

    1. Anonymous Buster of Shit ArgumentsMonday, March 17, 2014 at 2:54:00 PM EDT

      Hoho!-ly shit.

      I have to agree that in going through his timeline, this is beyond a doubt the closest match to S.R to date.

      What this means is that some of S.R / Press 9's previous messages are now indictable.

    2. I dunno there are a lot of idiotic anti-Muslim, anti-anglophone PQ supporters, with poor grammar, limited vocabulary and education out there, so it's hard to tell for sure.

  21. Lorsque l'on regarde les choses en perspective : Les Blacks Américains,sous tous rapports,sont devant les anglos du Québec en terme de reconnaissance.

    Hé bien...

    1. Yup - there's no arguing the fact. SR / Press 9 really is Roger Binette:

    2. Wonder if he'd appreciate us commenting all over his page in OUR language - giggling about the ridiculous things the PQ do MDR !!!! lol

  22. Hi. I was wondering if someone has an answer to this question. From what I understand, a passport is given by the Canadian government. The passport merely reflects the idea that someone can travel abroad to countries that Canada has a treaty or relationship with. So, Canada needed to negotiate with the other countries first to allow travel back and forth for Canadian citizens to enter that country. I keep hearing that if Quebec seperated, they could still use a Canadian passport or make their own.

    Even if they made their own, I would assume that they would need to negotiate all over again with other countries to gain access to travel there. If there was any animosity or security concerns, I believe there would be issues gaining access to travel abroad. The USA documents from 1995 showed that the USA would discuss with Canada any concerns in the event of a 'YES' vote. Even if Quebec dealt with the USA, the USA could ask Canada to discuss the matter and deny entry to any Quebecer into their country. The same problems could occur for travel destinations to the Caribbean.

    This doesn't mean that negotiations could be started to one day allow Quebecers to have a passport to the USA or other destinations but I would imagine it might take several years to a decade to allow this to occur since there would be many issues stateside that would take precedent first. This might mean a long time before any person could travel abroad and especially worrisome if you had property that you purchased abroad no? Lots of Caribbean destinations depend on Canadian tourists and if Canadians had any resentment , they could boycott specific destinations and force tourist areas to support one place over another by spending their money selectively. Could someone reply with what might be an outcome or result of this passport fiasco?

    1. The only thing the US would have any say about would be people crossing directly from Quebec into their country, such s the Blackpool border crossing on I 87.
      A passport basically identifies to the destination country that the carrier as a citizen of our country who is not known to be dangerous in any way. (no criminal record i.e.) Canada does not negotiate with other countries. The country of destination decides whether they wish to accept it and allow entry. It also guarantees that one will always be able to get back home. As long as you have a Canadian passport, Canada will stand up for you anywhere in the world. Ed

  23. Gilles Duceppe says that Quebec borders with Canada should be open if Quebec secedes. Well, there is one problem with that. Canada guards its border with the United States seriously. How will Canada know that Quebec will do the same? If Canada does not know how well Quebec plans to maintain it's border with four U.S. states. They might not the Quebec/Canada border to become a backdoor for American smugglers, so I don't see a Canada/Quebec border being COMPLETELY open.

    That being said, it's in Canada's interest to keep it as open as possible to maintain transportation connections between the ROC and the Atlantic provinces.

    1. That is exactly why we need to partition those areas of quebec and then establish borders to keep the quebec separatists where they will have chosen to stay for life. They have made the choice to leave Canada; they should not have access to anything Canadian or as little as possible. If they can't read well enough to find out exactly what is going to happen, there is nothing more we can do for them except let them have the isolation they've wanted and desired for the past 40+ years. I know most of us all really tired of trying to point out the pitfalls of all this nonsense and the end will not bode well for them.

    2. Other way, Cutie. Quebec in its entirety has to have its border closed and THEN partition. Quebec has no credibility re guarding its borders. Heck, they have no credibility period.

      As I have stated time and time before, Quebec CAN retain the Canadian dollar, but at its own peril. The Bank of Canada will do what is in Canada's best interests, not Quebec's. Trust me when I write Quebec will revert to its own currency well within the 39 days Slovakia took to develop its own currency separate from that of the Czech Republic. Besides, why would a country wanting to break away from its motherland then subject itself to that former motherland's monetary policy? I do not anticipate the Bank of Canada would permit a foreign country sitting on its board. They haven't so far.

      A separate Quebec can request a seat, but I don't imagine their wish will be granted, and it shouldn't. They can also ask for a million other things, but it doesn't mean they'll get anything they ask for. They can negotiate a free trade deal with Canada, but for sure they'll lose half their milk production when Canadian dairy farmers can easily produce enough milk and shut out the Quebec dairy farmers and their cushy political clout they have enjoyed...that is, until now, and the dairy industry is only the beginning of where Quebec will suffer.

  24. Come on
    She speaks for north-east
    And yes, those guys from riviere du loup strongly believe than they will be able to use CAD and sit in National bank

  25. Some excellent points by Paul Wells on the legal quagmires subsequent to a "yes" referendum victory.

  26. I have yet another set of questions for members of separatist groups.

    Prior to the campaign, high-ranking members of separatist groups told the public that independent Quebec would be in better economic position than currently as a province. One point of that argument was that independent Quebec would not need to send tax money to Ottawa and that independent Quebec would be 100% responsible of its revenue and expenditures, including collecting 100% fees and royalties associated with its resources.

    In this blog, Michel Patrice and student adhere to above-mentioned school of thought.

    The campaigning leaders seem to agree that the biggest problem the province now faces is economy. Also, leaders of separatist parties certainly have independence as the main reason of their parties' existence.

    Considering those conditions and the argument above, why does Pauline Marois not present her economic model in the framework of independent Quebec? It is her party's argument that independence is more beneficial economically. It is her party lifelong objective to gain independence. Why not combining those to objective right now?

    Because, if what they were telling the public was right, there was nothing, but nothing, better for Quebec economy than independence. That is one premise they kept on telling us. Therefore, there is really no economical disadvantage for the province to get independence and become a sovereign country. Why is the PQ not selling the idea now? Do they not believe in the economic independence anymore or do they deliberately leading the province to a worse situation by not offering independence?

    1. Troy, the economic plan for an independent Quebec is the status quo. The idiots want to continue as is using Canada's money, passports, central bank expecting real Canadians to shoulder the costs of while they play fake country ripping off Canadians hard earned money. They have no morals constantly whining about Canadians but have their hands in our pockets. S.R, Y.L, student, Paulinr Marois, J.F. Losee make me sick...

    2. @troy

      "...high-ranking members of separatist groups told the public that (...) independent Quebec would (...) be 100% responsible of its revenue and expenditures, including collecting 100% fees and royalties associated with its resources."

      which high ranking member of a separatist group argued that quebec would collect 100% royalties?

      "In this blog, (...) student adhere to above-mentioned school of thought."

      please quote me.

    3. "which high ranking member of a separatist group argued that quebec would collect 100% royalties?"

      I'd hope all of them, who else would an independent Quebec be sending mining fees and royalties to?

      "please quote me."


    4. Hey look. Student disagrees that it follows the school of thought that independent Quebec would be in better economic position than currently as a province. Does this mean that student thinks that as a part of Canada Quebec is economically better than being independent?

  27. I am thinking these separatists want to make Quebec into a one big Indian reserve for just francophones.

  28. Les anglos doivent savoir qu'ils deviendraient des citoyens de première classe dans un Québec souverain,des citoyens normaux quoi.

  29. To be fair, while I despise the man completely, there are a number of points that Gilles Duceppe are right during CTV Question Period interview.

    He is right that Canada can not stop independent Quebec (or anybody else) to use Canadian dollar. Canadian dollar is a hard currency that is globally traded in the open market. Wait, maybe I need to make my point more precise. Canada can not stop anybody to use Canadian dollar without severely crippling its own economy because Canada could, technically, declare that all Canadian currency outside Canada is invalid. So there, it is almost impossible for Canada to stop Quebec to use Canadian dollar.

    However, what Marois implies is more than using Canadian dollar. She implies monetary union. For that to happen there needs to be bilateral agreement between the countries (or multilateral in the case of Euro). For the life of me I can not fathom why Canada would be willing to be a party in a monetary union with Quebec, and to have a Quebec representative sits on the Bank of Canada. What is really in it for Canada?

    The second however is that while it is true that a number of countries in the world use foreign currency as their official currency, those countries are minor or not economically developed. The practice is called currency substitution. Countries that adopt that practice include El Salvador, Palau, Kosovo, Tokelau and Lesotho. Is one sure that that is the path that one chooses Quebec to go to?

    He is also right that according the laws in Canada right now, dual citizenship is allowed. Canadian citizens are free to get and to maintain citizenship(s) from any other countries in the world, just like I do. The laws also do not care if the other citizenship is gained before or after Canadian citizenship is gained, either by birth or by naturalization. And he is also right that it would be up to Canadian Parliament to legislate citizenship issues.

    The however in this case is that he grossly underestimates the reaction of people and governments of Canada and of other provinces in the case of separation. Canada never repeals multiple citizenship because there is no precedent of a part of Canada leaving. Reading at the comments from RoC people and media in regards to Quebec independence movement, one can be pretty sure that reaction from Canada would be harsh and totally against Quebec interest. Because, again, what is in it for them?

    This is one of the biggest lies separatist movement tells the population, I think. They perceived that independence simply means that the Government of Quebec will take over control of governance of Quebec and that is it. Everything else will be just business as usual and the Government of Quebec has 100% control of whatever happens in Quebec and whatever happens in relation with Quebec.

    1. "He is right that Canada can not stop independent Quebec (or anybody else) to use Canadian dollar."

      "He is also right that according the laws in Canada right now, dual citizenship is allowed."

      you are a sensible man troy. isn't it incredible that he has to go on english media and explain these simple things to anglo audience? how come you guys couldn't figure these out by yourselves? such simple things. it is truly fascinating.

    2. Maybe he needs to explain what would be different?

    3. @troy

      also troy, why do you "completely despise" a man that just opened up your eyes? you already long for the times when you could still believe the national post propaganda? of course life was easier. but i think you are a better person now.

    4. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    5. It is really funny to see student making all that comments without reading and understanding all the howevers. Quite a highlight of the (lack of) intellect and reading comprehension of a typical separatist, or the untruthfulness and dishonesty of the same.

    6. I find it sad to see what happens when one becomes so profoundly indoctrinated.

      Healthy nationalism would not rely on robotically repeating the same old dogmatic beliefs that have a lengthy track record of failure.

      For some reason, Quebec has been infected with a version of nationalism that manifests itself in smart-aleckness and general asshatery toward everyone who is not them.

      The Quebec version is grounded in a persecution complex that glorifies perpetual victimhood, the result of having lost the colonialism wars of centuries ago (but which is treated as having happened the day before yesterday).

      This Quebec version of nationalism has been completely rejected in Scotland and Catalonia, for example. Their version of nationalism is far more respectful of their citizens compared to that of the language martyrs we have here.

      And though I don’t have any concrete evidence, nor have I heard of Quebec’s poisonous, condescending version of nationalism manifesting itself in Crimea either.

    7. Of course an independent Quebec could use the Canadian dollar, many countries have used stronger, more prosperous countries' currency when theirs failed.

    8. In Quebecois logic,

      The damn jews were German bashing for years. We had no option but to put them in the ovens. To Quebecois Jews are "racist" against Germans.

      Defending against Francophne people that spend decades destroying anglophone/immigrant culture and people is "racist" in their backward thinking.

      A boycott is strike.
      Separation s economic opportunity instead of economic suicide.

      No logic in Quebec. Only "feelings", symbols and "what we want".

      Worshipping idols without any understanding or logic.

    9. Talking of Jews. Can someone explain to me why Jews were kick of their land 2000 years ago. Was it because of their attitude towards others?

    10. Importantly, left out of the above list was Zimbabwe. That country at one point printed hundred trillion (Zimbabwe) dollar bills that couldn't buy a dozen eggs. They finally scrapped their currency and adopt other currencies for the time being.

      When Zimbabwe was Rhodesia, it was a very affluent country, but nationalism killed that country. Caution, Quebec!

  30. Imo, the separatist lies are perpetuated by a federal government that has never bothered to address any of the goodies Quebec assumes it will leave with.

    A few suggested answers to the PM du jour:

    Qc: our borders will stay the same
    Ca: Oh no, they won't

    Qc: we'll keep the Canadian currency
    Ca: whatevs

    Qc: We'll want a seat at BoC
    Ca: Oh no, you won't

    Qc: Free border movement
    Ca: Oh no, no free border movement

    So on and so forth...

    And the common folks have no reason to imagine anything would happen differently as long the federal gov't stays mum.

    1. thing is it will be in canada's interest to have a good relationship with new neighbour country. don't you agree? or are you so sick that you consider grudge and hate to be better trade drivers?

    2. TS est dans sa phase du "non" , comme le font les bambinos :)

    3. Will it be exactly what we have with the USA?

    4. thing is it will be in quebec's interest to have a good relationship with its neighbour country. don't you agree? or are you so sick that you consider unreasonable requests and excessive demands to be better trade drivers?

      thing is 'good relationship' does not mean yielding to any requests that would be detrimental to Canada.

  31. Wow, talk about a great subject EDITOR, there's so much involved.
    Quebecers probably could go on using Canadian money providing there's enough of it in the Province. For local retail there would be no problem. They could ask that currency for exports be paid in Canadian funds, which would be spent in the Quebec.
    Passports would be no problem since Canada shares dual citizenship with many countries such as France , they would be given the same consideration I'm sure.
    As far as the border is concerned Ottawa would have to set up immigration crossings the same as they do with the U.S. Border crossing guards would be armed the same as in the rest of the country. Of course with the P Q's history of choosing immigrants it would be essential to know who's crossing into Canada. If we didn't guard against this the U.S. would be forced to tighten up even more than they have since George Bush's days. Ed

    1. Why on God's earth would Canada give separatists dual citizenship? They cannot stop them from using the Canadian dollar but they sure as hell can stop them from crossing borders when background checks have to be done by CSIS for all Canadian passports. And those seppies that like their 6 months in Florida every year via the Canadian passport better start giving thought as to the length of time it will take to get clearance to travel anywhere. Another bunch of BS that the separatists spread without a second thought. RS is right - what's in that for Canada? Why would they want these people spreading their hate and bigotry all across the ROC? Keep them inside the new borders where they have people of like mind.

    2. Exactly, Ed thinks it would be no problem to have dual citizenship!!! Is the rest of Canada going to get Quebec passports? total nonsense.. So Quebeckers could move freely within Canada with all the benefits..

    3. Ed is in denial of so many things it's truly sad. With partition, we keep Canadian borders intact, provincial border changes but he doesn't seem to get that. He asks if the PQ get in would we be happy with Peladope because of the economy not even realizing that with Bill 14 and the Charter of Non-Values, there would be even less investment and less people moving here - a huge exodus of people that are already here (those that can afford to leave without equity in their homes), and a suffocating atmosphere losing more rights and freedoms as Canadians and all we are to think about is Peladope taking on the unions (which is good but not good enough to get people to come here).

      And, please, why would anyone want to come to quebec for many, many years to come even as a tourist with their attitude? If I'm forced to leave here as Canadian, they can stuff their quebec passports you know where. I would never set foot in this province again, for any reason and would probably join Mr. Sauga in relegating the separatists to the backwoods of quebec in a nano-second. He says he can read hate in my posts - he's correct - I hate the separatists (not the francophones that he tried to intimate I was referring to) with a passion and will until the day I die. All they've done is shit disturb for no reason for years and made me completely ashamed to be a resident of this province. When Bill 101 came in I accepted that and there was no hate but from then on, it's been one thing after another showing hate to everyone and anyone that is not "part of their society" so the hate is now returned - one of the results of years of robbing me of a serene and stable life.

      Canada will be holding the cards in negotiating with quebec when the split comes (and I hope it's soon) and I hope they stick it to them good - really good!

    4. should have read "insinuate" rather than "intimate" - wish there was a correct button on this blog.

  32. It’s truly sad to see these manifestations of the kind of nationalism that infects Quebec.

  33. On the subject of quebec keeping Canadian passports, Canadian currency and intact borders in the case of separation, as professed by Marois, before one black penny is spent on any activity toward separation or sovereignty, we want and expect Marois and the PQ to get it in writing from Ottawa, we want "Agreement Certifications", actual signatures on paper validating/ confirming Marois's unsubstantiated claims.

  34. Sorry, if Quebec became a country some day there would be no dual citizenship. I don't care what the law says it would be changed. you people are deluding yourselves if you think otherwise. Even some of you federalists here are buying into the seppie nonsense. Trust me, Canadians hate Seperatists with a passion and if Quebec goes we will want to put the screws to you. If you clowns think you are going to live in Montreal or Gatineau and think you can go back and forth and work for in Ottawa for example, frget it. Dual citizenship... That makes my blood boil just thinking that you could be so arroagant. Mock my country, drain my country with over 18 billion per year, rip off another province off its hydroelectricity, criticize other provinces for developing their resources and then reaping the benefits. Far as I am concerned Quebec can go fuck itself...

    From a Canadian

    1. My suggestion is that if you want to keep Canadian money, open borders and a Canadian passport then don't vote for The PQ. Its called logic.

    2. We are just as frustrated with the things Quebec is doing as you are. I understand that you’re blowing off steam, which is understandable, but you cannot be a regular blog reader since you completely misunderstand the audience of this blog.

      Just like you, we are Canadian too, you know. You do realize that the PQ squeaked in despite 70% of us voting against them last time, don’t you?

      Just like you, this blog’s readers hate separatists with a passion, we are not mocking *our* country (it’s not just *your* country), we don’t have any more control over the rules that exist for transfer payments than you do, we did not personally negotiate with Joey Smallwood nor do we have any more say with Hydro management decisions than you do, and we’re not the two-faced PQ politicians who are waiting to develop natural resources but only after a hypothetical separation. You don’t specify what this seppie nonsense it is that you believe federalists are “buying into”, so that was a pointless comment that cannot be replied to.

      So your hostility here is completely misplaced.
      Your understanding of who it is you’re writing to is lacking.
      It’s disappointing to see you being so condescending to federalists and showing your lack of support to your fellow Canadians in Quebec. However, I’m sure your comment made the seppies very happy.

      So you know what? As far as I’m concerned, *you* can go fuck yourself.

      From a Canadian

      And to the poor Anonymous idiot offering us voting suggestions (and who doesn’t even follow the blog rules against posting as “Anonymous”), apart from two trolls, nobody here votes for the PQ. How something so obvious could possibly have escaped you is disturbing.

    3. When was Canada sold to an idiot named Steve. According to his rant he speaks for all Canadians. Apparently he is the dull citizenship sheriff in charge of hydro dammits and mocking. birds. Also drains, maybe a plumber. He really shoud go to Craigslist RANTS AND RAVES. they are trained to read such crap and he can find the fuck he's apparently begging for. Ed

    4. @ R.S

      You make very good points. Of course, emotions runs high.

      We seem to always be in this situation where there is no clear majority. Yes, the PQ may get less than 50% of the vote, but most polls show a referendum vote would be very, very close. And more than 50% of Francophones (outside Montreal) support separation.

      And I think you're right, it would help to have some frank discussions about exactly what separation would look like. We seem to spend more time avoiding the real issues rather than talking about them.

      For the ROC the example would be the relationship Canada has with the USA. For the most part it works very well. We have things like NAFTA and the Auto Pact and all kinds of other agreements. We're good neighbours, but separate countries. That's the way most Canadians see it working.

      Here, maybe this might help: most Canadians view their relationship with Quebec the same way Quebec views its relationship with New Brunswick. Sure, it would be good if New Brunswick's economy was better, but it's not such a big deal in Quebec. And sure, Quebec feels it's good that the French in New Brunswick have a university and French high schools and so on, but Quebec is still willing to leave them behind in Canada.

      And the maritime provinces don't need to be physically attached to Canada, we already have the example of Alaska not being attached to the 'lower 48' as they call them.

  35. Latest poll in La Presse + shows the Liberals in the lead with 39%. Could this be the end of Popo-topia? If so, you can almost bet that in the weeks following a PQ loss, there will be any number of disgruntled individuals suddenly eager to divulge all the details of the infamous "deal". She and her husband might be joining Applebaum in the clink sooner rather than later.

    1. "Pour son enquête de mars, CROP a doublé la taille de ses échantillons dans la région de Québec et dans la couronne de Montréal."

  36. UN GARS BIEN SYMPATHIQUE DE FRANKFORTTuesday, March 18, 2014 at 5:44:00 AM EDT

    Aparemment que le PLQ est en avance dans les sondages:(

    A ce point, le concept de separation et ce "projet de societe" utopique sont deux mythes au quebec.
    Trop caves pour se separer.... beau people de pissous.

    1. Ce sont les fédérastes pissous de la CAQ le problème :)

  37. La crédibilité d'un candidat libéral mise à mal

    Encore un "lib" ... smh

  38. Interesting column in today's Citizen re: How David Cameron deals with the separatists in Scotland: