TROY: " Editor, As the Winter Olympics in Sochi start today - opening ceremony is tomorrow but there are several events competing today - I suggest that you post a piece about the Olympics from the perspective of Canadians who live among those who do not want to be part of Canada anymore."Every now and then, there is idle talk and wishful thinking of a 'Quebec' team among ardent separatists who yearn to see the day when the Quebec flag can be hoisted in front of blue and white clad athletes marching into the stadium representing the independent state of Quebec. With half of francophones in favour of sovereignty one might assume that half of those Quebecers representing Canada would prefer to march under the Quebec banner, but I doubt if it is true.
Athletes are high-level achievers and even those from the hinterland of Quebec make it their business to learn English as fast as possible. They travel across Canada to train and across the world to compete and like all elite athletes they learn very quickly that the world spins in English.
No bitching and moaning about the dire straights of French for these athletes, they don't have the time to waste.
These high-achievers are aboard the train of success and if becoming accomplished in English an element of that success, so be it.
As francophone athletes successfully compete on a world-wide level, be it on the ATP tennis tour, the NHL, the Olympic movement, motor-racing or tiddlywinks, they embrace a larger world and generally leave the Quebec pettiness over language far behind.
Am I talking through my hat...I think not.
A couple of years ago, organizers tried to put together a hockey tournament featuring Quebec NHLers against the world in a francophone type of tournament that never happened because of the overwhelming refusal of francophone NHLers to join in.
It just didn't sit right with many of them, firmly encamped in English Canada or America, where they have made a life for themselves, outside of the politics of language confrontation.
For Quebec Olympic athletes, there is an extra payoff post Olympics, the ability to represent national companies and products bilingually, where companies seek one spokesmen or women that can carry the torch (1st Olympic allusion) in both languages. The level of excellence and competitiveness crosses all language lines as demonstrated by English athletes like Sara Hughes who train in Quebec and quickly take up French. Evidently high achievers look to conquer, regardless of language and competing under the Canadian Maple Leaf is a thrilling experience and something that transcends political debate.
A couple of days ago, I was served up a remarkable lesson in patriotism when in an interview, Sylvain Bruneau, the coach of Canada's Federation Cup tennis team, (who are competing this weekend in Montreal against Serbia), in an accented but excellent English talked about pride and patriotism and how excited he and the competitors were in representing their country.
Anybody who thinks francophones aren't excited to see Canadians compete wearing the red maple leaf is just plain wrong.
As for sovereigntist fans cheering for Canada, there is no contradiction. For them, as it is in other provinces, it is an extra thrill to have local athletes medal, but in no way dampens the enthusiasm for medalists from the opposite end of the country.
Most sovereigntists don't hate Canada. They prefer to move on, like a maturing teenager moving out of their parents home, certainly not in anger or acrimony.
And so cheering for Canada is perfectly natural.
There are some very militant haters, who will cringe at the sight of Quebecers marching under the Canadian flag, but they are few and far between and an unhappy and frustrated lot, at that.
 |
| Sisters Maxime, Chloe and Justine Dufour-Lapointe, left to right, have all made it through the first round at Sochi |
The COA insures that Canadians from all provinces and backgrounds have an opportunity to compete and train while respecting language requirement as best they can.
It isn't perfect, but as good as we can expect.
 |
| How well will this prediction pan out? |
I'm happy to note that our government has made a financial commitment that only heavyweight countries can afford, full in the knowledge that to achieve at the Olympics, substantial dollars must be invested in athletes.
So cheers to our government for spending the money, an expenditure that most Canadians are proud to finance through our taxes.
These next two weeks is the payoff for the investment we taxpayers have made and for the athletes, it's the culmination of a dream, one that only an elite athlete can understand.
So let's wish all Canadian athletes much success and thank them all for representing us with their dedication and effort.
Here's a summary of Canadian medal contenders according to Jeremy Freeborn at Examiner.com
"Canada's top Olympian will be Charles Hamelin of Levis, Quebec who is projected to win four medals in short track speed skating.
Charles Hamelin- Multiple medal contender
The eight gold medalists are Jennifer Jones of Winnipeg in women's curling, the men's hockey team, Kaille Humphries of Calgary in women's bobsled, Hamelin in the men's 1000m short track speed skating, Maxence Parrot of Cowansville, Quebec in men's slopestyle snowboarding, Kaya Turski of Montreal in women's slopestyle skiing, Alexandre Bilodeau of Montreal in men's moguls and Marielle Thompson of Vancouver in women's skicross.
The 14 silver medallists are Brad Jacobs of Sault. Ste. Marie in men's curling, women's hockey, Mikael Kingsbury of Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts, Quebec in men's moguls, Rosalind Groenewoud of Calgary in women's halfpipe skiing, Mike Riddle of Edmonton in men's halfpipe skiing, Justine Dufour-Lapointe of Montreal in women's moguls, the mixed relay luge team, Dara Howell of Huntsville, Ontario in women's slopestyle skiing, the men's short track speed skating relay team, Patrick Chan of Ottawa in men's figure skating, the figure skating team event, Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir of London, Ontario in ice dancing, Dominique Maltais of Petite-Riviere-Saint-Francois, Quebec in women's snowboard cross and Spencer O'Brien of Courtenay, British Columbia in women's slopestyle snowboarding.
Finally the seven bronze medalists are Hamelin in the men's 500m and 1500m short track speed skating events, Valerie Maltais of La Baie, Quebec in the women's 1500m short track speed skating, Alex Gough of Calgary in women's luge, Mark McMorris of Regina in men's slopestyle snowboarding, the women's long track speed skating team pursuit and the women's short track speed skating relay team." Link
Looking through the photos of Canada's Olympic team it occurs to me that there's a lot of very good looking specimens both men and women.
Have a look who's hottest over HERE
As good a performance as one can expect from Canadian athletes, it pales to that of the Norwegian delegation which is predicted to win the most overall medals of any nation.
Considering that Norway has one-seventh of Canada's population and one seventieth of America's population it is a stunning accomplishment.
Incidentally, I think Canada will do better in the GOLD category then the predicted 11 above and can come away with as much a fourteen.
Ah to dream!.......
By the way, have you have a laugh at some of the lack of preparedness by the Sochi organizers?
Brown water?
No Heat?
It was a bit funny, especially watching reporters bitching and moaning over the conditions.
What did they expect, IT'S RUSSIA.
Have you ever watched those Russian dash cam videos?
PRICELESS!!!!
Here's another chapter.....enjoy.
Haha!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wzVAa5Fxzo#t=30
I disagree with the comment..."Most sovereigntists don't hate Canada." Nothing further could be further from the truth. Bills 14 and 60 were drafted on the basis of hatred towards linguistic and religious minorities. Now Mme Marois wants a white paper favourable on sovereignty.
ReplyDeleteAnd she can't wait to get started on that white paper, even break the election law!
Deletehttp://www.cjad.com/cjad-news/2014/02/06/premier-ready-to-break-fixed-election-law
@Anonymous
DeleteI also disagree with the statement that "Most sovereigntists don't hate Canada."
Since the Editor is an Anglophone who hangs out predominantly with other Anglophones as opposed to those of us who drink in Francophone bars and can overhear and understand the vile shit coming from the mouths of these people, he's not aware of what is TRULY in their hearts.
Case in point: there is a bar on St. Hubert (in the market, close by to Beaubien). Can't recall it's name.
The bar is beautiful, very nicely decorated.
Then one day I was sitting at the bar, reading quietly when who comes in?
Two members of Loco Lowclass.
Immediately, people sitting at the bar all started talking about Anglos like they're the scum of the Earth. Sure enough, I've never gone there since...and they now fly the Patriote flag out front.
Phil, please refrain from being so democratic and offering olive branches - once they grab hold of said olive branches, they'll start whipping us with them. They hate us.
That's not to say this blog should be turned into a slanderous hate site (a la saveur de Vigile.net), but I'll never understand offering endearment and civility to those who (less than secretly) fantasize about burning "lest autres" at the stake.
Am I exaggerating with that last statement?
Non, je pense pas: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/02/04/quebecs_xenophobic_moment.html
"Most sovereigntists don't hate Canada."
DeleteMixing "Sovereigntist" and "don't hate" in the same sentence is nothing less than an oxymoron. The defining trait of a Quebec sovereigntist is exclusion, division and above all else, HATE.
Canada, the country, stands for equality, acceptance, openness and a society of multiculturalism where everyone is welcome and treated respectfully regardless of your race, skin color, region or language. Separatists DO NOT WANT ANY OF THIS, THESE ARE DIRTY WORDS TO THEM. The whole raison d'etre of the separatist movement is to have a segregated society of purist who were born in Quebec, as White, Catholic and French. Bill 14 and Bill 60 certainly clearly cover the latter two, and for the former, it was Quebec Premier Bouchard who said, "We're one of the white races that has the fewest children."
To me the whole Quebec sovereigntist movement is about hate, nothing more, nothing less. After 40 years this has become crystal clear. They do not want to be a part of a country that considers everyone equal, and by that extension, hate Canada and anyone who is different from them. If a Quebecer does not hate Canada, then they are not a sovereigntist.
Thu only English that sepratists hate is the ones who don't talk French/
Delete@ anonymous
DeleteWell strange then, that English people who speak fluent French are STILL ostracized and belittled by the French Quebecois. Take Marvin Rotrand for example, he was put down for speaking perfect French, but.......with an accent!
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/12/05/graeme-hamilton-accented-french-latest-target-of-language-guardians/
And this is a man who also goes out of his way to defend the STM and their bigoted treatment of English customers. That's right, he sides with the racists, an Anglo appeaser. You'd think then he'd be a hero to Quebec nationalists for going against his own kind, but no, if you're born English, you're tainted for life. You can never fit in to Quebec society and will be rejected no matter what.
Furthermore, I can site examples of persons who are not only fluently bilingual, but have mastered the (Joule) Quebecois accent. Of course once it's discovered they have an English last name, are Jewish or any other ethnicity for that matter, they're hated and despised by the Quebecois. That's just the Quebec way.
...And why should anyone hate another person because they don't speak your language? You judge someone one their character, who they are and how they act. NOT the color of their skin, NOT the language they speak, NOT what clothing they wear, NOT by how different they are. Quebec as a whole is nothing less than disgusting, and I say that seeing how high public support is for the so-called Charter of Values. The only positive is this exposes Quebec society for what it is for the entire world to see.
Right on Apple - even if they speak French without an accent, if their heritage is not "fighting for the just cause of separatism", they are blackballed and ostracized. The complaints of not being able to find a job, even though fully bilingual, are many on the social websites. Shows they "look after their own" and the rest of us are just garbage. Nazi like thinking and behaviour, even if they are not willing to admit it.
Delete@editor
Deletewhy don't you address apple iigs's hallucinations in a future post? you know the whole "they hate us" falsity? it's quite a common line amongst your followers (cebeuq, cutie003, anonymous coward, etc) and you don't agree with it as you clearly stated in this post. your position is being attacked vehemently as if you wrote some kind of heresy.
in my humble these bad analysts clinge on this credence because it's the easiest way to undermine a separatist's point of view. no effort, just repeat it as if it was written in the sky: "they hate us". in doing so they obviously mistreat the truth and show little regard for intelligence. why do they do it anyways? brainwash? fear? lack of morality? all of the abpve?
i think there is matter here for a constructive article.
I just have to address Student's post because this, I believe, just might be her most over-the-top attempt at crashing the No Dogs blog.
Delete"you know the whole "they hate us" falsity?"
Exhibit "A": http://bit.ly/1iGKNfb
Exhibit "B": http://bit.ly/LZomY4
Exhibit "C": http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/editorial/story.html?id=554ea4c4-41d1-4f46-9d4d-24ab9b27b147
"your position is being attacked vehemently as if you wrote some kind of heresy."
I believe the term most commonly used was "I disagree" - a rather benign statement that hardly comes off as a "vehement attack."
"in my humble ---> you missed a word here <---- these bad analysts ---> misspelled another word here ---> clinge on this credence because it's the easiest way to undermine a separatist's point of view."
Correction, it's not so much the easiest was as the truest. You are the shameless bully looking to treat others as he wishes and get away with it without any kind of repercussions. We're merely calling you out.
"why do they do it anyways? brainwash? fear? lack of morality? all of the abpve?"
See above statement. If you have trouble understanding, my 4-year-old nephew can explain it to you. Just ask.
"i think there is matter here for a constructive article."
Oh sure. You here that Editor? You've been called on to write a "sympathy for the devil" piece and help us understand how hard it is to be a racist, xenophobic separatist who suffers from extreme groupthink.
Leave it to a separatist to have the nerve to show up on this blog and have a piece written in their favor. Narcissism +100.
Why should the Editor give space to these zealots to have their say in anything? They have plenty of blogs and newspapers that blindly support their point of view and never give the other side any space to rebut the arguments in favour of separation. She is just testing him to see if he will fall for the bull but I'm sure he is not interested in the least to give her and/or SR any more space to waste on their stupidity. Hate is obvious from both of them all the time in any matters ever discussed on this blog. People will only be pushed so far and then they push back because that's human nature. They will not bankrupt me and steal my home or my land just because they vote to do so. They are in for a rude awakening if they think we will sit back and accept that without a fight - people are sick of these racist bigots and their agenda of ridding the province of everything and everyone not of their ilk. This land belongs to all of Canada not just to the province of quebec - it's been paid for many times over and the natives also have their land claims against the province. Neither will they be ignored - just try it!
Delete@anonymous coward
Delete"I believe the term most commonly used was "I disagree" - a rather benign statement that hardly comes off as a "vehement attack."
you're right apple iigs was more vehement than you in his attack against the editor's position. but i was refering to your reaction as a group, not yours specificaly. but still, you disagree, and it could be interesting to know from the editor why he thinks you are wrong, as he must think many of his followers are. there is something to exploit here, that is if he wants to understand what's going on, that may not be your case.
"...it's not so much the easiest was as the truest. You are the shameless bully..."
well the editor thinks otherwise. let's hear what he thinks brought you to fantasize as you do.
"You here that Editor?"
this phrase doesn't make sense, what did you mean mate?
@anonymous coward & @cutie003
Delete"Phil, please refrain from being so democratic..."
"Why should the Editor give space to these zealots to have their say in anything?"
haha. openly anti-democratic now. every day a tad lower. fascinating.
"haha. openly anti-democratic now. every day a tad lower. fascinating."
Delete-->> http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/02/04/quebecs_xenophobic_moment.html
No need to argue with the troll (and I knew better).
@anonymous coward
Deletefirst you claim editor should be less democratic, when busted you try to get out of it by posting an artcile on another subject. wtf mate?
@student
DeleteI think the point was to show you how Quebeckers are so undemocratic they're laughing at a woman who died because she wore a piece of clothing she feels she should not be allowed to wear (which is a lack of democracy in itself).
Here, I'll make it easy-peasy for you since we can't stretch your fragile mind too far.
Anti-democratic: Bill 101, Bill 60, FLQ threats in the 60s to attack the Queen of England if she dares appear in a parade in Quebec city, and the list could go on an on. And then you call the posters here un-democratic?
@sylvain racisto
Delete"And then you call the posters here un-democratic?"
of course, one calls for less democracy and the other one thinks some people should not be granted freedom of expression. that's top anti-democratic. don't you agree mate?
Alright, I'm not going to waste any more time on this crap, but close with this:
DeleteAnglos/Allos/ROC: never created a law like Bill 101, telling people what language to speak in and what to call their businesses (even though they're the ones spending the money to open the business). That's undemocratic.
Anglos/Allos/ROC: never created a law like Bill 60, telling people how to dress and what to believe in. Once again, that's undemocratic.
Anglos/Allos/ROC: don't have any equivalent to the FLQ and never threatened to kill any prominent Quebeckers or members of non-Quebec French society if they ever showed up at the Canada Day festivities. That's undemocratic.
Your 'movement' as you like to call it is guilty of all of the above and more, and then you come here and grovel to us to show you some democracy? The same democracy you'd never give us in the same position?
We could easily name a dozen sites/blogs you could go get petted on the head for your racist attitude, but this site isn't one of them.
BTW - way to dodge everyone's points.
"In a democracy, you do not take away the rights of the people, you give them more rights." Rene Levesque said that, from what I've heard. I'd be curious to know if he actually said that, where and when.
Delete@sylvain raciste
Delete"... way to dodge everyone's points."
no you're the dodger. i asked if you agreed with me about anonymous coward being anti-democratic for begging the editor for less democracy and cutie003 being anti-democratic for begging the editor for less freedom of speech. you never answered.
FROM ED
DeleteTheo, I seem to remember Rene making this comment but at the time he made clear that he meaiving new rights to the French and that the English would always have the rights they enjoyed. Ed
Rene gave the English the right to be forced to live in French!
DeleteGuys, hate to break it to you but "student" isn't real. You know those spam-bots that are programmed to flood website discussion forums with ads for Viagra, body lotions and prescription pills ? Well this is one of those bots, just slightly less elaborate. It even has a bug that improperly filters ASCII code and strips away case sensitive text.
DeleteIt's programming script has it reply to all our comment posted, and then print the exact opposite opinion, no matter how absurd, ridiculous or logic defining it ends up sounding. Seems like someone even programmed in some canned sentences for it say, almost seems human sometimes! Eerie. Kind of reminds me of that game I had on my old 8-bit Apple II+ and Commodore 64 computers called ELIZA.
Ah well, kinda of fun nostalgia having an ELIZA script to play with as a distraction while we have these serious debates. Though come on guys, it's not a real AI, stop trying to talk to it like it understands you....I mean, that's just plain silly. Computer programs don't think, not yet anyway.
Whatever, anyone know the command to turn it off? I'm getting bored with it and it's just making it difficult to see actual discussion going on in here.
@apple iigs
Deletehaha. good fiction mate. so you're a computer geek aren't you? are you a database admin like hugo shebear? that is so cool.
FROM ED Apple, you're 100 percent right. This is a damned nuicance but the but the problem we have is not the bot, it is people like Anectote and one of the Anonymouses who keep the computer replying. They know it's a wste of time because it hs been explained many times. But they choose to say t0o hell with usi and carry on. Ed
DeleteVisitors to Sochi, Quebeckers or Canadians alike, must be amused at the topless portraits of Vladimir Putin in their hotel rooms.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/02/sochi-hotel-guests-complain-about-topless-portraits-of-putin-in-rooms.html
These people have much bigger fish to fry and 99% of them don't give a sweet damn about the language battle that goes on in quebec. Why should they? They are out to further their careers not the careers of the stupid separatist politicians that are the ones that are pocketing all the money they can get their hands on before this stupid movement is killed off and dies the inevitable death that it so deserves. The ROC is not so small minded that they don't cheer for ALL the athletes, even those that come from this backward province unlike the separatists that would have the quebec flag be carried rather than the Canadian flag and don't cheer except for the quebec entrants.
ReplyDeleteEquipe Quebec?????????? I suppose they'd go on Ottawa's dime, right?
ReplyDeleteBTW Ma tante Pauline will debate her new White Book on Quebec's "future" i.e. independance. And why Ottawa is nasty to Quebec.
Wanna see that Quebec ship sink real fast? Stop equalization payments now!!!!!!
TRANSFERTS FÉDÉRAUX
DeletePure propagande!
http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/canada/398668/pure-propagande
Prend ça mon ti-clin :)
S.R., did you actually read the article? Nowhere does the author say that Quebec does not receive more money than it pays to Ottawa.
DeleteHe can read but not understand.
Delete"It was a bit funny, especially watching reporters bitching and moaning over the conditions."
ReplyDeleteDon't underestimate the propagandistic aspect of these "complaints" as well as of this whole "gay rights" thing that is being thrown at Russia. It is farcical to watch people like Francois Hollande announce that he won't go to Sochi because of "gay rights", and then fly to Qatar to make an arms deal.
A reasonable ban on gay proselytizing in Russia gets blown out of all proportion, while real abuses of homosexuals in client states like Saudi Arabia, Qatar or Kuwait go unnoticed.
New lows in world politics are definitely being hit, this time by insecure Western politicians jealous of an emerging non-western power. In recent years Russia and China were the only counterweight to Western expansionism. They stalled Western interests from thrashing another middle eastern country (Syria). They did not turn over Snowden. They protected Iran from Western schemes and plots.
Russia is back, and these little people ruling the West can't stand it.
This is what you call a homerun post.
DeleteWell done.
i totally agree. good one adski.
DeleteFor the record, Human Rights Watch completely disagrees with your opinion about this being a “reasonable ban” enacted in order to protect Russian children. This loose propaganda law is merely a shameful pretext than is being applied to justify oppression, none of which has anything to do with minors.
Deletehttp://youtu.be/zMTbFSJ_Tr4
In addition, Hollande provided no reason for his decision to shun the Sochi Games, just like many other world leaders have also done.
How come the separatists are not up in arms about the rainbow flag being flown at city hall? How come it's OK to support gay rights but not the rights of the anglophones and the allophones? Gee, could it be that they (the separatists) feel THEY can pick and chose just who should have rights and freedoms just like in Russia? Oh that's right; there was that woman that testified at the hearings that children shouldn't have to see ladies in hijab's (but I guess it's alright to see them with their ass hanging out of shorts - no law against that). What a society and what a place!
DeleteJust wait until we see the PQ start digging for oil and the reaction of the "holier than thou" environmentalists here that believe the BS about how much better they are than Alberta.
By AnecTOTE
DeleteYou make a good point Cutie, personally, I'd like to see a Flag that represents 'Civil Rights' flying at city hall, and then that way, we ALL (those discriminated against, subjugated and oppressed, ...everyone), would be represented, under one banner. Short of that, I completely support the rainbow flag at this time.
I have nothing against the rainbow flag - just making the point of how they seem to think it's OK to pick and choose OUR rights and freedoms!
Delete@cutie003
Delete"...they seem to think it's OK to pick and choose OUR rights and freedoms!"
which one of your rights and freedoms are you refering to mate? be specific for a change.
"Human Rights Watch completely disagrees with your opinion about this being a “reasonable ban” enacted in order to protect Russian children."
DeleteThe HRW dropped the ball on this one. It gave in to the pressure from LGBT bullies at the expense of the children.
Completely agreed, Adski
ReplyDeleteYou don't agree with me on this but I find this situation very similar to when the Western media slanders countries like North Korea and Cuba without a shred of evidence. US capitalist imperialism knows no end. It's too bad that the Soviet Union had turned into a war economy instead of investing time and effort in creating a real socialist society. Most people in Eastern Europe have expressed the desire to return to communism, resulting from the many failures of capitalism.
It's hypocritical of Western politicians to want to boycott the Olympics for this supposedly anti-gay law when they have no qualms with doing businesses with the most homophobic nation on Earth, Saudi Arabia. Down with Western imperialism!!
"Most people in Eastern Europe have expressed the desire to return to communism, resulting from the many failures of capitalism. " Those of us with family ties to Eastern Europe beg to differ.
Delete"Most people in Eastern Europe have expressed the desire to return to communism, resulting from the many failures of capitalism." Maybe the old people.
Delete@Maoist Rebel
DeleteAh yes, North Korea: a hereditary thugocracy workers paradise. Don't you find it a bit inconsistent that Korea, Cuba and virtually all the former bastions of communism had to use force to keep their citizens from voting with their feet?
Communism: A system for chronic underachievers like Maoist Rebel to raise themselves up without putting in the effort.
This is where the new country of quebec is headed in the middle of North America! About 11% of the separatist population are communist - something unheard in North America. Is this what they really want? God such a sewer.
DeleteFROM ED
DeleteThe ones wanting to return to Communism are the lazy folk wholike to have the governmnt do everything for them. Very much like the back bunchers in Quebec would be just as happy to have the Church take over their lives. At the moment it's not needed because the government does exactly that and more. I know a Christian Lutheran Minister here who told me he and his wife left Russia but longed for the return of the way it was under Stalin.
To EDM and Anonymous 10:29: No, the majority of citizens in the former Republics want communism back. I should have been more specific
Deletehttp://rt.com/news/ussr-collapse-mistake-poll-585/
" Don't you find it a bit inconsistent that Korea, Cuba and virtually all the former bastions of communism had to use force to keep their citizens from voting with their feet"
It's not inconsistent because your premise is complete bullshit. There are local elections in both the DPRK and Cuba. Those elections are more democratic than the petty bourgeois democracy that we have in the west. And it's funny that a capitalist should call communists underachievers given that capitalism is all about making profits at the expense of others. Communists have led revolutions that violently overthrew capitalist regimes that then went back crying to mommy (the US) for financial support to fight the commies. In most communist societies, jobs are guaranteed by law, as are housing, education and health care. But then again, a capitalist like you who believes in financial slavery will never be able to comprehend the concept of complete economic equality.
ED: Quebec is a social democracy, which is not that much different from a liberal democracy. The Christian Lutheran minister is one of many to be nostalgic about the Stalinist era. Russia had changed from an agrarian, backwards society in the early 1920s to an economic and military superpower by the early 50s--that's 30 years!!. If that's not a success, then what is? Oh and before you give me the "Stalin killed 30 million people" BS, here is the evidence that it's a complete fabrication
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdOEVoucMC8
FROM ED
DeleteActually, Stalin did order the "Scorched Earth Policy which left six million in the Ukraine starving to death. The Ukraine was the bread basket of Europe. He did it to protect Moscow from the advancing german army. i don't need to lok at your fancy evidence, I was old enough back then to remember it happening I remember the newsreels of people looking worse that the survivors of the Holocaust. Ed
@Maoist Rebel:"It's not inconsistent because your premise is complete bullshit. There are local elections in both the DPRK and Cuba."
DeleteAh yes, you can vote for any candidate you want as long as it's the Communist Party's candidate. Do you really think someone can run against "Dear Leader"? Ever notice how the some of the least democratic countries feel it necessary to add 'Democratic' to their name, like the DPRK and the defunct DDR?
In fairness, I have seen societies where communism worked quite well. Last summer there was an ant hill in my backyard and a wasp nest on my eaves, and both seemed to function efficiently. BTW, I can comprehend the concept of complete economic equality, but I can also comprehend the reality of human nature and the latter will always ensure that the former remains nothing more than a concept. Dream on, Rebel without a clue.
@Maoist Rebel:'Oh and before you give me the "Stalin killed 30 million people" BS, here is the evidence that it's a complete fabrication
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdOEVoucMC8 '
That's your evidence? Some Bolshevik wannabe posting on Youtube from his parents basement? So they 'only' executed about 780,000. How many died in the Gulags and other prisons and the Ukraine, as Ed pointed out? Who cares? they created a workers paradise. Good enough for me comrade, where do I sign up? I can't decide whether you actually buy into all this crap or if you're just yanking our chains.
Ed: Bullshit. The Ukranian famine occurred as a result of capitalist pigs refusing to share their kattle to feed the starving masses. They are responsible for starving people and were rightly arrested and tried for murder.
Delete"Ah yes, you can vote for any candidate you want as long as it's the Communist Party's candidate. Do you really think someone can run against "Dear Leader"? Ever notice how the some of the least democratic countries feel it necessary to add 'Democratic' to their name, like the DPRK and the defunct DDR"
There are 3 or 4 main parties in the DPRK and they have more independent candidates than both Canada and the US. Cuba is much more democratic than the USA or Canada. A political scientist who lives in Montreal has done great research on the subject. You can read the interview here:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/cuban-democracy-versus-american-democracy/5335208
And for the record, the DPRK has not been a communist society for a little over a decade now. The ongoing sanctions, combined with the collapse of the USSR, has drastically damaged the country's economy. Bad economy and constant threats from the West forced the country to adopt a military first policy.
Diogenes, your "human nature" excuse is complete bullshit, just like your other arguments. Your premise is that people do everything good simply for the profit motive. If that's the case, why wasn't anybody naked in the Soviet Union? Why do people have shoes in countries like the DPRK? People don't do stuff simply for the profit motive.
"That's your evidence? Some Bolshevik wannabe posting on Youtube from his parents basement? So they 'only' executed about 780,000. How many died in the Gulags and other prisons and the Ukraine, as Ed pointed out?"
Many innocents died in the Great Purge of 1936-1939. The Soviet govt was extremely paranoid of Nazi subversion and Hitler used this to his own advantage. He gave fake documents linking top Soviet bureaucrats to foreign espionage. Also, a famine was occurring during this time and the kulak class refused to share their kattle withe masses who were starving. This class was heavily targeted. The innocents were mostly ethnic minorities who lives along the borders, the families of the bureaucrats in question and so forth. By any measure, this period was tragic.
Why would I just troll? I'm a real Communist. I view world history as constant struggles between economic classes. I view Western liberal democracy as dictatorship of the bourgeoisie because they control the means of production and therefore have the biggest influence in running the state. This is simply one of capitalism's major contradictions: everyone has an equal say, but your voice is more equal than others if you have more money.
By the way, great way to shoot the messenger instead of the evidence. If you want more evidence, here are some academic sources you can check out:
- Getty, A., G. Ritterspom, and V. Zemskov. "Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence", American Historical Review 98 (1993)
- Wheatcroft, S. "More Light on the Scale of Repression and Excess Mortality in the Soviet Union in the 1930s." Soviet Studies 42 (1990)
- Getty, A. "Origins of the Great Purges". Cambridge University Press: Cambridge (1985)
How's that capitalist paradise in Somalia working out for you?
FROM ED
DeleteIt was not cattle that starved people. The SCORCHED EARTH POLICY ordered by Communist Stalin was the burning of the wheat, ryee and other grain fields to leave nothing for the german armies advancing on Moscow.
I don't need books or videos or an idiot like you to convince me otherwise. I watched it happen. Ed
Rob Ford souhaite que l'on retire le drapeau gai devant l'hôtel de ville
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/national/201402/07/01-4736777-rob-ford-souhaite-que-lon-retire-le-drapeau-gai-devant-lhotel-de-ville.php
After reading all the comments, i understand that Canadians really hate les Québécois, not the other way around....
ReplyDeleteThat's a horrible assumption given that it is not true - do not mix up the majority of the francophone population with the separatists. The separatists hate Canadians and make no bones about it. They have stirred up the backlash that is now coming their way with their treatment of anyone that is not pur laine francophone. Go read Vigil.net or the Saint Jean Baptist Society of Quebec and you will see for yourself how they hate us.
Delete"Most people in Eastern Europe have expressed the desire to return to communism, resulting from the many failures of capitalism. " Those of us with family ties to Eastern Europe beg to differ.
DeleteI agree with Robert. This blog has not identified the folks that are being addressed. We keep referring to them as French Canadians, Quebecers, francophone, Québécois etc. Someone mentioned *Language Nazi*(no nazi syndrome is necessary), this sounds good to me.
Delete@ Maoist Rebel, yes I have noticed that the Ukraines want to hookup with Russia
FROM ED
DeleteCutie is right. Not all French men are separatist. The fact that the Liberals almost got elected in spite of the CAQ splitting the vote and falsely calling them corrupt..there had to be a lot of votes in the outback to do this because a lot of English were convinced by people like Complicated here on the blog defining the Libs as thieving sewer rats. Ed
Would you believe he's ready to do it again.
English had suport and money from Briton it helped them put down the French who were abondand by France. After the Slanush armada was sank the French King was afraid of the BRitish Navy so he gave them Quebec.
DeleteAnd Dan Sinew was arrested - if the above is not a threat, I don't know what is. You will kill nothing you ingrate. Your cowardly ways of bombing mailboxes killing people you don't even know and strangling victims that have no defence, along with your cowardice through two world wars, is well known. If you think we're afraid of you, you're even more stupid than I thought. And we have a lot more than language to kill for: our land, our homes, our country and our businesses. So get over yourself and learn to crawl again.
DeleteEditor: How does you blog attract so many of these crazies? Must be something you're doing right!
Êtes-vous une amie proche de cet individu cutie003 ?
Delete@Editor: I really think that the guy that posted that above should be reported to authorities. If his comment was on FB he would be reported but not sure how to go about that here. Sounds like a threat to me and a lot worse one than Dan Sinew made in his casual comment.
DeleteThe Dufour-Lapointe Sisters on the BBC
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25988150
FABULOUS!!!......Thank you JF for the link.
DeleteI think this BBC video validates what I have said in the post above about Francophone athletes and Canada.
3 young Francophone Quebec sisters who speak about the pride they have in representing Canada at the Olympics, in ENGLISH
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25988150
I beg you to watch this video and tell me that my take in the above post is invalid.
Dufour-Lapointe-Saputo
Delete" Cheesy "
DeleteTrue story
Deletehttp://s1201.photobucket.com/user/interima/media/siblings_maxime_chloe_justine_dufour-lapointe.jpg.html
FROM ED
ReplyDeleteRob Ford , who has been protested against is protesting the gay protesters who are protesting in support of gay protesters in Russia
who are protesting the fact that Putin is protesting their wanting to protest the gay ban of no protesting durng the games.
Ford is right the homosexuals are going to far. This in your face practice needs some boundaries. They are not more important thean the Olympicss. They are trying to get more attention than the Olympics. With all the money and effort that the Russians have invested they don't deserve that..
FROM ED
ReplyDeletePuin obviously puts p pictures of himself shirtless to show his musslef. It's a good thing and he needs to do tat.
He wants people to feel that he is young and able. Russia ha had such a list of ancient men from Stalin to Breshnev and JHruhchev. They laste a few months before their drinking killed the,. Andropov was one of the shoertest terms They said ther'e a cliff out back. And someone said go out back Andropov. So he did. Ed
Un « fan du Canadien » tente de détourner un avion vers Sotchi
ReplyDeletehttp://www.journaldemontreal.com/2014/02/07/un-avion-de-ligne-turc-parti-dukraine-contraint-datterrir-a-istanbul-apres-une-tentative-de-detournement
Héhé!
Bwana BirukIl
ReplyDeleteCanada is autonomous state of USA. like Lesotho in South Africa
Canada never heard of the USA where is it?
DeleteFROM ED
DeleteAs I sit this morning scanning the Olympics on diferent channels I'm struck by the interview with 20 year old mark McMorris from Saskatchewan. i've been wondering whether the amount of money the games cost as opposed to the overall value is worrth it.
I was dubious until I watched young Mark an hour ago. To begin with his jump was exhilarating. Seeing a human body spinning so gracefully so high in the air is amazing. The interview also turned me on. The boyish face on this young lad who at twenty is still more boy than man coulldn't hide his exubrance, which he well deserved. The mature side showed a little when he thanked those who helped him, espcially the people of his native Province. The fact that he had the courage to fly after being badly injured makes hmgreat. I have decided the Olympics are worth the effort. Ed
"Athletes are high-level achievers and even those from the hinterland of Quebec make it their business to learn English as fast as possible. They travel across Canada [...] and across the world [...] and [...] they learn very quickly that the world spins in English."
ReplyDeleteThese are your own prejudices : If separatists would open up to english and travel Canada and the world, they would be cured of their disease. Interestingly, I first felt that Canada was not my country when visiting Canada during a student exchange in high school (Manitoba and Ontario). Ironicaly, those trips were then organized so that young anglos and francos could discover each other culture, those were the Trudeau years.
Jean-Martin Aussant is fluent in french, english and spanish, he studied and worked oversees. Yet, he is an independentist.
You will oppose Mario Beaulieu (who doesn't speak english I believe) with his sometimes petty fight against english. Well, Beaulieu is of course independentist, but his crusade is a crusade for french language not for independence. And there are acadians outside of Québec, for instance, who also crusade for french language without being independentist.
The independentists who seem to me the most rational, the most articulate, the most logical are the ones who speak french and english, if not a third language, and the ones who traveled the world. I am thinking of Parizeau, Aussant, Lévesque, Jean-François Lisée (one of your favorites) Jean-Jacques Nantel, Joseph Facal, Joseph René Marcel Sauvé.
"With half of francophones in favour of sovereignty one might assume that half of those Quebecers representing Canada would prefer to march under the Quebec banner, but I doubt if it is true.[...] For Quebec Olympic athletes, there is an extra payoff post Olympics, the ability to represent national companies and products bilingually[...]."
My guess is that some athletes would prefer to march under Québec banner, but will tone down their feelings to keep the opportunity to cash in on a sponsorship agreement. A hardline sepratist wouldn't sell much as a coast to coast spoke person. Si Paris valait bien une messe pour Henri IV, un commanditaire pancanadien veut possiblement bien une feuille d'érable...
Just as Student does a fine job of tying a noose around her own neck, so does Patrice.
Delete"My guess is that some athletes would prefer to march under Québec banner, but will tone down their feelings to keep the opportunity to cash in on a sponsorship agreement. "
Hmmmm... sounds like a familiar line of thinking:
“Never go into business, unless you want to be hated. Get a job in government instead. We French Canadians don’t like successful businessmen.”
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/02/03/lise-ravary-biting-the-hands-that-feed-us-in-quebec/
Looks to me like there is indeed a case to be made for diseased thinking.
Welcome back on board Yan
Delete@michel patrice
Delete"My guess is that some athletes would prefer to march under Québec banner, but will tone down their feelings to keep the opportunity to cash in on a sponsorship agreement."
my guess is a slight variation of yours. i think many quebec athletes would prefer to compete for quebec, but they're just not gonna make a political fuss at the olympics. they are young, naive, exhilarated and there to have a good time. politics are not part of their mission, or so they think.
most of quebec athletes end up having rep deals in quebec only anyways, so i doubt it would hurt their future career much if they showed their patriotism on the podium. now don't come up with the list of quebec athletes that got a pan-canadian deal, as i wrote most not all.
also, many of them are quite young and not quite aware yet of what canada is, and what quebec could be. probably an experience like the olympics will bring a few of them to the idea that it would be nicer if quebec, their real national border, was a country like all the others that surround them in russia.
By AnecTOTE
DeleteWhat absolute BS as usual, you don't know these girls personally so you have no clue what they would prefer. What we witnessed were two outstanding athletes being proud of what they accomplished for themselves and Canada, who made it happen for them. We could tell they were proud and euphoric about that.
Congratulation to the Dufour-Lapointe sisters, and Congratulations to their parents as well, who made huge sacrifices for them to show up today. Madame et Monsieur, les médailles appartiennent autant à vous qu'à vos filles. Bravo!
Lastly (Let's give to Caesar, what is Caesar's lol), it is becoming a habit a Winter Olympics that the first gold medal for Canada comes from athletes from Montreal. LOL
@s.r.
Rejoice... pour les prochaines deux semaines exclusivement, le Français passera avant de l'anglais à Sochi. Lolololololololololo.
Bonjour Yannick,
DeleteContent de te relire à nouveau.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteAnonymous Coward,
DeleteI don't see the link between world class athletes keeping their hypothetical political opnions to themselves and our attitude toward entrepreneurship. In this instance, the athletes would NOT bite the hand that feeds them and, in Ravary's post, one is biting the hand that feeds us. Perhaps you could entertain us by elaborating on your idea.
By AnecTOTE
DeleteMmm...they sound way too cosmopolitan (read: bilingual and well travelled) to be from levis, lol.
Entertain you?
DeletePetit penseur, the allusion I was making was that the athletes whose minds you appear able to read do not strike me as the type of people who are only after sponsorships. If that were the case they'd certainly have chosen more mainstream sports where there is real money to be had (baseball, tennis, golf, basketball).
And the link to Ravary's article and your statement?
Simple - you exhibited the same line of thinking as Ravary's father: “Never go into business, unless you want to be hated. Get a job in government instead. We French Canadians don’t like successful businessmen.”
The only difference being that you transposed the success of English interests (in the quote above) to Francophone athletes and how you resent their success. You automatically believe that any Francophone athlete who sincerely has no interest in your little movement is a greedy little sell-out.
Crabs in a bucket.
@team canada
Delete"...you don't know these girls personally so you have no clue what they would prefer. What we witnessed were two outstanding athletes being proud of what they accomplished for (...) Canada, who made it happen for them."
mate you're so bad. it's incredible. i gave my opinion on what i though was a common mindset amongst quebec athletes. answering the editor's question remember? of course i don't know them personaly, so what? since when do you have to know someone personally to form a thought about a group's motives?!?
but then here is when you finish yourself. right after you pretend my opinion is invalid because i don't know "these girls", you carry on with a very precise opinion on them: doing exactly what you wrongly accused me of having done! isn't this spectacular? it sure is.
By AnecTOTE
DeleteHow about you shut the F...UP and offer some sincere congratulations to the girls and what they accomplished today...instead of incessantly turning this into a trivial moment to validate quebec again...give it freakin' rest always proving to all of us time and time again how absolutely stupid you are. (yawn)
@team canada
Deleteno. i'm more interested in you trying to extirpate yourself from your contradictions. now if you could please address the highlighted one up here. or remain stuck in it.
the guy calles himself editor makes a big deal abut three sisters from Quebec that can talk English. Lots of people from Quebec can talk English.
ReplyDeleteTwo of the sisters pictured above have just won a GOLD and SILVER medal and will stand on the podium together!
ReplyDeleteFELICITATIONS!!!!!
Yes, the girls have done well - how proud must they be? Congratulations girls and keep up the good work! What an honour!
DeleteIs there a common language in the Olympics world? Does the team from France communicate solely in French?
ReplyDeleteLa Charte olympique en son article 24 relatif aux langues précise notamment :
Delete1. Les langues officielles du Comité International Olympique sont le français et l’anglais.
http://franceolympique.com/art/831-le_francais,_langue_olympique.html
A while ago, the Editor wrote a statistic backed scientific paper demonstrating how quebeckers were less generous than canadians. I then wrote the following comment : "The Tim Horton next to where where I live is a franchise owned by a quebecker, all employees are quebeckers and, if we forget the occasionnal tourist, all customers are quebeckers. My guess is that there are a couple of Tim Horton franchise owners who suggested that Tim Horton gave some money. That money, or at least a part of it, came from franchises in Québec. So, in your generosity contest, you should credit a part this money to Québec."
ReplyDeletehttp://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.ca/2013/07/lac-meganticthe-tragedy-that-surrounds.html?showComment=1373980016250#c5415823220714582315
The clever answer that the Editor came up with was : "But the decision to donate is made in Toronto..."
So regardless that money would have been raised in Québec by quebeckers, the donation would be credited to Canada because Tim horton's head office was in Toronto.
Voilà le Canada dans toute sa splendeur : we don't exist. So, you will excuse my lack of enthousiasm when you wave the canadian flag.
About Québec athletes and the canadian flag, I remember Jennifer Carroll who waved a tiny Québec flag at the Commonwealth games. I remember the canadian olympic team coach reaction. I think that the proper english expression is : going ape shit. Again, le Canada dans toute sa plendeur : our existence is offensive.
Can you possibly be more of a victim?
DeleteWhile I understand what you're trying to establish with your statement, you stepped directly into the melodrama trap and blew yourself clean out of the water. I took a quick look and it does not appear that these corporations have stats on the collections of individual zones.
Care to try and dig some up for us?
Donations are in fact a non-negotiable decree from the head office in Oakville, Ontario for all franchises to participate in.
So while you might say that the generosity of the Quebecois is overlooked, by way of using your Tim Horton's example, try to keep in mind that the Editor's report was built on a statistical amalgam of several different charitable societes (such as Médecins Sans Frontières, the Canadian Cancer Society et al), and that on a broad basis, Quebec was one of the less generous places.
BTW, Michel, do you know why mos Tim Horton's patrons donate to that little plastic box? For the same reason they leave a tip on the counter - guilt. They're not doing it out of a charitable spirit.
By AnecTOTE
Delete"About Québec athletes and the canadian flag, I remember Jennifer Carroll who waved a tiny Québec flag at the Commonwealth games. I remember the canadian olympic team coach reaction. I think that the proper english expression is : going ape shit. Again, le Canada dans toute sa plendeur : our existence is offensive."
You would think this and assume this, of course it never occurred to you that, in certain instances, it is about having a sense of occasion, an appropriate sense of occasion. When you look in the crowd, during such international events, like the Olympics or even the Commonwealth games, you don't see other Canadian athletes waving the flag of their native province, they are waving the Canadian Flag, since Canada sponsors them in a BIG way. It is rather poor form to wave "any" provincial flag as opposed to the Canadian one. Someone as worldly as a "Michel Patrice" (lol) should be capable of grasping such basic etiquette!
Justine et Chloé Dufour-Lapointe avec leurs racines à Québec et dans le bas du fleuve...Plus pure-laine que ça,tu meurs.
DeleteNous savons tous qu'elles ont la fleur de lys tatouée sur le coeur,voilà ce qui est important.
By AnecTOTE
DeleteOh brother ..ok s.r. if you're gonna be a baby about it, take a pill already. Lol
Pure-laines or not, and tattooed fleur de lys bla bla...it will be the Canadian Flag that will be raised, AND the Canadian Anthem sung at the medal ceremony, and we shall savor it...!!! Lol, (smiles)!
Go Team Canada!
"Canadian Anthem"
DeleteUn autre produit québécois.
La première Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste en Amérique du Nord adoptait la feuille d'érable pour emblème en 1834.
DeleteL'érable rouge (Acer rubrum) est une espèce d'arbres de la famille des Sapindacées, originaire de l’est du Canada (Québec).
Ouch!
Le drapeau canadien ainsi que son hymne national sont d'origine québécoise,pas une question de supériorité...Moron.
DeleteIs the Canadian national animal, the beaver, actually the Quebec national animal?
DeleteEn 1678, Louis de Buade, comte de Frontenac, gouverneur de la Nouvelle-France, proposa pour la ville de Québec des armoiries contenant un castor, celui-ci étant à son avis un emblème approprié pour la colonie. En 1690, pour commémorer la résistance victorieuse des Français à Québec, la médaille « Kebeca Liberata » fut frappée: une femme assise, symbolisant la France, avec un castor à ses pieds, représentant le Canada, figurait au revers de la médaille.
DeleteLe castor fut également inclus dans les armes de la ville de Montréal en 1833.
http://www.pch.gc.ca/fra/1363619815777/1363619877898
Patrice writes "Voila le Canada dans toute sa splendeur : we don't exist" and "Again, le Canada dans toute sa plendeur: our existence is offensive," when Canada has been bending over backwards to accommodate Quebec Francophones in every way possible for decades. It is actually the Quebec government - with its illegitimate laws - that has been doing its best to label Anglophones and Allophones as offensive undesirables, to make their presence in Quebec invisible, and to drive them out of the province.
DeletePatrice has been posting here more than usual today. As a separatist he must be really upset at having to watch Quebec Francophones celebrate their victories as Canadian athletes wearing maple leafs, with the Canadian flag being raised and the Canadian anthem being played. They're speaking some English too. How delicious!
@Durham - "As a separatist he must be really upset..."
DeleteI've noticed that of all the separatists since the Olympics began. It really is driving them bat-shit crazy.
You have Michel crawling out of his cave and whining that he doesn't exist, Student-Bot is putting in some serious overtime and now S.R. has topped his usually banal nature by trying to say that Quebec's trees are superior to Canada's.
This speaks volumes about the separatist mentality.
With their crabs-in-the-bucket mentality, they simply cannot be happy for their fellow Francophones as they shine in Russia. Instead they accuse them of being sell-outs or point out little things like fleur-de-lys tattoos.
You might want to take a second look, seppies.
While you guys devote (re: waste) your time on promoting your racist, divisive agenda, these other Francophones devote the same time and energy to perfecting their lives to compete against the world's very best.
While you spend endless hours trying to convince people to support your Bill 60, these Francophones roll out of bed at 4:30 am, and immediately start doing push-ups, counting every calorie, depriving themselves of alcohol (and other little pleasures) in order to achieve their dreams.
That makes them winners, and of course, you are the losers. So keep on bickering about where the beaver originally came from or who wrote the Canadian anthem...it will never change the fact that you've accomplished nothing in your lives and that you hate everyone (including other Francophones) who've made awesome lives for themselves.
Team Canada,
Deletehttp://www.rds.ca/plus/amateurs/autre-controverse-impliquant-natation-canada-1.207506 :
Quote from the article :
"C'est absurde, a pour sa part noté la ministre du Patrimoine, Sheila Copps. (...) C'est sûr que c'est une discrimination parce que si c'était un drapeau de la Saskatchewan, il n'y aurait pas de problème."
D'autres médaillés canadiens ont déjà grimpé sur des podiums, lors de jeux olympiques, avec à la main le drapeau de leur province d'origine. C'est le cas de la patineuse de vitesse Catriona LeMay-Doan et de la joueuse de curling Sandra Schmiller qui ont brandi le drapeau de la Saskatchewan lors des jeux de Nagano. Les deux femmes n'ont pas eu à faire face à des sanctions ou des réprimandes."
And Swimming Canada later apologized to Carroll : http://www.cbc.ca/sports/swimming-canada-apologizes-for-treatment-of-carroll-1.340165
Anonymous Coward,
Delete"Can you possibly be more of a victim?"
You understand this as playing the victim,it is not. It is underlining an element of pettiness in the canadian nationalism. And I will not be ashamed to underline this pettiness to someone qui nous chie dessus writing a post such as the "Lac Megantic...Another Tragedy Surrounds the Disaster" post.
No Michel, I understand it as this:
DeleteYou're just looking, everywhere and anywhere, to find an instance in which English Canada is "shitting" on you.
Worst of all, you are such a sad, sad example to your daughters.
Let's take a look at the contrast, shall we?
Two Francophone parents, you and the Dufour-Lapointes.
The Dufour-Lapointes taught their daughters that they are winners. Obviously it worked, because people who whine and make excuses DO NOT go to the Olympics and they sure as hell do not come home with gold and silver medals.
And now you, and the example you're setting for your daughters: "Les Anglos nous chie sur la tête. Nous les Québecois, nous sommes un peuple opprimé."
You are a victim, but what's worse is, you're going to pass your mentality down to a new generation.
"it worked, because people who whine and make excuses DO NOT go to the Olympics"
DeleteEst-ce que vos enfants compétitionnent aux olympiques coward ?
Si non...Ta gueule!
"Ta gueule!"
DeleteOh ho ho! I know the seppies have been very sensitive since the Olympics started, but that's pretty raw, right there.
Whether it's through getting a country or the accomplish of their offspring, it appears that separatists are constantly looking for validation through the efforts of others.
Well, no need to worry.
It was Quebec that gave Canada it's national anthem, so on behalf of Canada allow me to you a pat on your little separatist head and thank you for the song. I am hereby giving you a 2L bottle of Pepsi as thanks.
On behalf of Canada, I would also like to thank you for giving us our Maple Leaf as well as our national symbol, the beaver. Here's another pat on your little separatist head mon petit bonhomme. Let me award you with un petit pain for those wonderful gifts you gave us. If you want some butter for your petit pain, ask the evil Eaton's lady, she'll help you (so long as you ask in English).
Now it's time for you to crawl back into your mediocre cave of quiet obscurity so the adults can discuss matters that are not suitable for the kiddies table.
By bye petit bonhomme.
@A.C
DeleteSi je comprend bien,à part vouloir être des Américains,les "canadians" n'accomplissent rien digne de mention.
Sauf peut-être Rob Ford et les catastrophes environnementales reliées à l'exploitation du pétrole le plus sale au monde.Je pourrais nommer d'autres gestes honteux de la part du gouvernement canadien mais je m'abtiendrai de le faire ici,en respect pour certains lecteurs qui ont l'épiderme plutôt sensible lorsqu'il est question de certains sujets.
"A little tap on your round (?) head "
Au plaisir mon bien petit bonhomme :)
By AnecTOTE
Delete""C'est absurde, a pour sa part noté la ministre du Patrimoine, Sheila Copps. (...) C'est sûr que c'est une discrimination parce que si c'était un drapeau de la Saskatchewan, il n'y aurait pas de problème.""
Wow Michel, how petty can YOU be? You just won't let this go. Did you not read my response? Okay here's the picture to go with:
At any "International" competition, it is Poor Form ...POOR FORM..to do that...for any Canadian athlete of any province, to wave ANY flag, other than the Canadian Flag, got that? The end.
@Yannick
ReplyDeleteThough we've had differences in the past, I am happy to see you back.
It was just the other day that I was thinking, "What did happen to Yannick, anyways?"
There were times in the past that I felt you were too ambivalent, but now that you're back I can appreciate your stance as that of someone who can help offer more balance to the conversation here - a referee if you will.
By AnecTOTE
DeleteI'd rather have Chik, just sayin' lol
@team canada
Deletewhy do you prefer aparatchik over yannick?
@yannick
Delete"I like to use this blog (as well as the comments section) as a way to keep a finger on the pulse of Quebec politics."
just make sure it's not the only one you use in order gauge quebec's pulse.
29% of Quebeckers want own Olympic team
ReplyDeletehttp://www2.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=9d8dd22a-5fd1-40fc-91d2-c5f53f6416db
They just want Canada to pay for it.....
DeleteUh Theo, that story is dated March 7, 2010
DeleteYes, the Leger survey was done after the last Winter Olympics. Don't think they do that kind of survey when the Olympics aren't happening.
DeleteFrench sports fans might like this. Rocket Richard was on the Ed Sullivan show 50 years ago, just like the Beatles!
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2014/02/08/rocket-richard-and-the-beatles-appeared-with-ed-sullivan/
FROM ED
ReplyDeleteWe seem to have an abundance of ANONYMOUSES today. Either that or the one who usually posts as Anonymous is having a
bad day. Even with one liners you can tell difference. Ed
M. Patrice,
ReplyDeleteI am glad to see you back. I consider you to be the voice of the separatist movement here who still have the modicum of decency and who discusses in good faith. In the previous piece I posted these questions. I would appreciate it if you could give the answer from the perspective of one that leans toward the separatism idea. I am ready to discuss the issues with you if you are willing and will stay for a while.
1. I readily admit that aside from hockey, Quebecers (anglophones and francophones) are quite contenders in the Winter Olympics - not so much in the Summer but I digress. The serious question that I have for separatists is how they feel watching Canada participating in the Olympics. Do they just watch the games like they watch Euro Cup, that is watching good athletes play without any attachment? Do they cheer for francophone-Quebecer-Canadian athletes only? And how do they feel when such athletes win and celebrate themselves in all things Canadian? Do they care at all if Canadian athletes not in above category win?
2. Related to point 1., how did separatists feel when in 2010 Canadian athletes won big in the games on Canadian soil, reveled in their victory with the rest of Canada and even had their victory parade along Ste-Catherine Street in Montreal? Hey, I was there and I got Scott Niedermayer and Hayley Wickenheiser signed my Olympic shirt.
3. Clara Hughes. She is arguably the greatest Canadian Olympian. Her hauls of 6 medals ties Cindy Klassen but Ms. Hughes won them in the Summer and Winter Olympics, the only Canadian who has ever done so. She is also active outside of sports, notably in mental health issues. She has many honors from different organizations, including the Order of Manitoba and the Officer of the Order of Canada. Clara Hughes is a resident of Glen Sutton, QC. I would think that she deserves to be called a Quebecer, if by choice. However, there is honor bestowed to her from Quebec, despite being a resident. How do you see the situation, would she deserve l'Ordre national du Québec?
1. i think separatists, and most francophone "federalists" as well, are happy and proud when a quebecker wins and indifferent when a roc canadian wins. mcmorris just got bronze in slopestyle snowboard. i doubt any francophone quebecker feel anything at all except hey, good for him and canada. it's one more medal. good for the statistics, but not much more.
Delete2. when canada won big in 2010 separatists were very happy for canada. well done canada. but here again, tears could only be drawn by local athletes: bilodeau, rochette, etc.
3. hurray for clara hughes. of course she deserves to be called a quebecker. but is she? you need to ask her.
By AnecTOTE
Delete@Troy
Are you putting me on? Really? Why are all of you falling all over yourselves over this imbecile. WTF?
"...I consider you to be the voice of the separatist movement here who still have the modicum of decency and who discusses in good faith."
WHAT?
NO SEPPIE today discusses anything in good faith. And if you imagine for a second that he or anyone of his ilk have any interest in anything you have to say or care about your opinion...I've got swamp land...and you're sadly mistaken. The only time he will garner ANY credibility as far as I'm concerned is when he openly admits that his seppie party running the show in qc city right now is as full of shit as all the other provincial parties if not more and are the epitome of PLAYERS. Short of that, he's no better than the other trolls trying to desperately defend the quebec brand in here...to save face with the world.
SNAP OUT OF IT..all of you. He's the puppet master.
FROM ED
DeleteAnectote or Team Canada whichever name your using now. If it's true as you say that "NO SEPPIE today discusses anything in good faith" then why do you keep discussions with the trolls. Just wasting space and time. Ed
By AnecTOTE
Delete@Apple
Judging by the asinine comment above just now from EB, looks like we're invaded by those spam-bots you mention in an above post. You are correct, they're a bloody nuisance.
Troy,
DeleteI am not a sport enthousisast and I don't like the Olympics much because of the media frenzy that I find just too much.
To answer your first question, I feel for Québec athletes more than for canadian athletes, just like, I guess, people from Alberta would have a sweet spot in their hearts for Alberta athletes. But that I feel more for Québec athletes seems bad in so many ways, offensive, so uncanadian (as if it were a crime).
I guess that when a New Brunswick athlete competes under the canadian banner, there is no commenter telling him : "You see? You see? He competes under the CANADIAN flag! Not New Brunswick. You see? You see? He got out of his shithole province, emancipated and embrassed the canadian flag."
But when a Québec athlete competes under the canadian banner, brace yourselves. This petty triumphialism is unappealling and repulsive. (And you, Troy, very often give into this repulsive triumphialism.) I don't blame canadian for feeling for canadian athletes and for Canada, but I just don't feel like being part of the parade.
I guess this also answers question 2.
Question 3. I guess you mean "...However, there is NO honor bestowed to her..." I don't know Clara Hughes, I could name no more than a handful of athletes. But if lives in Québec, I guess that she deserves the same honor than any other Québec athletes. Your question is, I guess, about if I consider her a true quebecker or not. I think that you should ask her how she feels about it.
"NO SEPPIE today discusses anything in good faith. And if you imagine for a second that he or anyone of his ilk have any interest in anything you have to say or care about your opinion...I've got swamp land...and you're sadly mistaken. The only time he will garner ANY credibility as far as I'm concerned is when he openly admits that his seppie party running the show in qc city right now is as full of shit as all the other provincial parties..."
DeleteLa démonisation de l'Autre. Je ne suis pas une personne, je suis un séparatiste. Et tous les séparatistes sont pareils. Et ils sont toujours malintentionnés. Et il est inutile de discuter. Et c'est moi le monstre. Et c'est moi qui ne peux ouvrir la bouche sans laisser dégouliner un flot d'injures et d'insultes. Et c'est moi, bien sûr, qui ai le hideux visage de la haine.
@Michel
DeleteWhat's the matter? You still upset that we conquered you, bro? :-)
@A.C
DeleteEt vous,ça vous fait chier de devoir apprendre la langue des conquis?
By AnecTOTE
Delete"La démonisation de l'Autre. Je ne suis pas une personne, je suis un séparatiste. Et tous les séparatistes sont pareils"
Seriously Michel, who you trying to play here, me? ME? Oh no..wait, this isn't at all for my benefit is it?
All seppies are not alike. Take s.r., yes he says vile despicable things, unworthy of the human race a lot of times, BUT unlike you, he's authentic, ...gives you the finger and too bad, and in that respect, what you see is what you get, and you know exactly what you're dealing with, though he may have no honor, there is a certain honor in that. He doesn't try to play anyone, (he deludes himself, this is true, but that's another story). He doesn't try and sell a load of bull that the reason he doesn't watch the Olympics is because he's not a sports buff, bla bla...I would bet bucks that if those quebec athletes would be hoisting up the fleur de lys, your eyes would be glued to the tv....and what's wrong with that? What's wrong with admitting that rather than hiding behind some moronic excuse to garner ....acceptance? What's wrong Michel, you're afraid that if you are completely true to your creed and come out of the closet on this blog, as the racist xenophobe you are deep down you wouldn't be as "respected"? Ah yes..you too have to earn a paycheck, don't you?
@s.r
I just watched the medal ceremony of those two beautiful Canadian athletes, the Dufour-Lapointe sisters on RDI, très éouvant d'ailleurs, in your face baby.
@GTc
DeleteAurez-vous les yeux rivés sur votre écran lors des prochaines élections provinciales?Si la tendance se maintient,celà risque aussi d'être fort émouvant...Surtout pour les anglos.
By AnecTOTE
DeleteOut, mais avant cela .... "Mon cher PQ, c'est à ton tour, de te laisser parler.... DU BUDGET...calissee " ...
Then we shall see....smiles!!!!
M. Patrice,
DeleteYour not knowing Clara Hughes I think is an indicator how Quebec separatists see themselves and see the environment around them, that is chauvinistic and provincial (pun is intended). For sake of discussion, just check her out on Wikipedia. My question is not whether she is condidered a Quebecer or not. But it is rather that the government of the province that she lives in refuses to honor her, presumably because of her ethnic background and the language she speaks. How do you find this situation?
@troy
Delete"Your not knowing Clara Hughes I think is an indicator how Quebec separatists see themselves and see the environment around them, that is chauvinistic and provincial..."
no. what it shows is french canadians are of a different culture than english canadians. they have their own heros. they don't need yours mate. it would be chauvinistic and provincial if they claimed some local dude is better than her or anyone even though it's not the case. but nobody claimed that. the correct word is autonomous troy.
"the government of the province that she lives in refuses to honor her, presumably because of her ethnic background and the language she speaks. How do you find this situation?"
it refuses? who asked for anything and when was it refused? also she received all honors possible from the government of canada, isnt this enough?!? isn't quebec part of canada? then is every jurisdiction where she hops by supposed to give her another medal? don't forget that she's only a skater and cyclist. it's not like she found the cure for cancer or anything really important.
"Your not knowing Clara Hughes I think is an indicator how Quebec separatists see themselves and see the environment around them..."
DeleteProbably. It seems that we live in two different cultural/mediatic environments. This is nothing new. These are the Two Solitudes.
About Québec honoring her, I don't know. She lives in Québec? Someone suggested her name? Would she want an honor from Québec? If so, yes, she should be honored.
I honestly don't know what to tell you about this.
Once in a while, when I feel up to it, I go explore the internet to see what's being said about Quebec in the rest of Canada. I am not sure why, but I like to open myself to other opinions, good or not-so-good. What I find is a horrible collection of anger, hate, fear and ignorance. Not just on the fringes of the internet like this blog, but also in the comments sections of major newspaper websites. My theory is that the media like to criticize quebec, then the readers pick up on it, encouraging the media to go even further in a vicious circle. In the meantime, quebeckers are watching with puzzled looks, wondering where all this is coming from. No, really. I don't see any anglophone getting round up and shot in the streets and I don't see extermination camps being built. I can understand why people would think we're on "welfare" thanks to other provinces, but that has long been completely debunked by various sources, most notably statistics Canada if i remember correctly. My significant other, who happens to be english speaking, has never been mistreated because of it in all the years she lived here. And we live in a very french-speaking neighborhood.
ReplyDeleteJust to balance it out, I went on a search for blogs, forums and other comment sections where french canadians would bitch on english Canada. I couldn't find any. If they exist, I couldn't find them, in either french or english. Sure, i did find some debates, but nothing that could be considered hate speech even remotely.
I think it might be because by necessity, people in Quebec have more contacts with the rest of Canada than the other way around. When you know the person in front of you and when you talk to them, you start to view them as actual human beings and no just "the dangerous others".
My only hope for this country is that what i'm reading here is the expression of a very, very tiny minority. On the plus side, I have never been assaulted, insulted or abused while traveling in Canada. I guess I have not met any of the above posters yet
Your theory is that the media like to criticize Quebec. Why do you suppose that is? I'd like to hear your opinion.
DeleteThanks
Is it any wonder that quebec is criticized by the ROC? 40 years of bellyaching, blackmailing, taking every dollar they can from other hardworking Canadians and getting spit in the face every day by the separatists and the media in quebec. Bragging how much better they are, how their culture is better, how their language is better, robbing Canadian citizens that are unfortunate enough to reside here of the right to live they way THEY see fit and not the way that the separatists see fit, trampling on basic human rights every time the damn PQ are in power (and a little less so by the liberals when they are in power), insulting them constantly on the world stage and generally being a big fat pain in the ass and an embarrassment to the country as a whole. Shoving their language down the throats of every one that is seeking employment in the federal government of Canada and having to kiss their ass because they think they deserve it and that they are more "special" than other Canadians.
DeleteWhen you talk of fear, the only fear they have is the economic hardship that will be placed on the country, especially in the stock markets for God only knows how long, when they vote to push us into civil strife and possibly civil war that no one in this country deserves or wants! It's long past time for the separatists in this stinking province started reading exactly the kind of hate that THEY stirred up in a country that is known to be one of the best in the world with kind and generous people that have turned against them and their miserable, self-centered agenda! Yea Canada!
cutie003 : Médaillée d'or catégorie slalom aux olympiques des angryphones :)
DeleteIn a province other than Quebec, does the government restrict a person from living their life in French?
DeleteIn Quebec, does the government restrict a person from living their life in in English?
@anonymous
Delete"My theory is that the media like to criticize quebec, then the readers pick up on it, encouraging the media to go even further in a vicious circle."
mine is english canadians are very scared of quebec to secede from the rest of canada. they would fell it as a defeat. and nobody likes to be defeated. they now rule quebec, and they like it that way. as a reflex they will say and write whatever sounds harmful to quebec in order to hamper french canadian pride and confidence. hence all the hate speech. the irony is that all the insults actually fuel a reaction from quebeckers to distance themselves from canada. don't they realize that? or is the instant pleasure they get from smearing you so strong that they can't rein themselves in? this i still have not figured yet, so i keep on studying.
if you know someone who's kinda undecided about voting yes or no next time, steer him towards this comments section. it will turn him into a definite yes in a week.
@ Anonymous,
Delete"Just to balance it out, I went on a search for blogs, forums and other comment sections where french canadians would bitch on english Canada. I couldn't find any."
I question whether you're being completely honest here, as there is plenty of anti-Canadian and anti-English sentiment in the Francophone media and on the internet.
Here are a few sites for your perusal, though there are many more:
http://www.vigile.net/
http://www.jeunespatriotes.org/
http://www.imperatif-francais.org/
http://ssjb.com/
http://quebecfrancais.org/
http://www.journaldemontreal.com/
@ student,
"mine is english canadians are very scared of quebec to secede from the rest of canada. they would fell it as a defeat. and nobody likes to be defeated."
If a referendum were held today in the rest of Canada regarding the expulsion of Quebec from the country, chances are that it would succeed.
The Dufour-Lapointe sisters show off their CANADIAN pride. Painted their nails with CANADIAN maple leaf. Spoke on the phone with CANADIAN prime minister. Gee, they forget to mention Quebec, eh?
ReplyDeletehttp://globalnews.ca/video/1137919/the-dufour-lapointe-sisters-show-off-their-canadian-pride
"...they forget to mention Quebec"
DeleteÉvidemment,avec un tel accent australien :)
Tante Marois is busy defending her husband. No time for athletes.
DeleteIf I am repulsive, so am I. Eugenie (without accent) Bouchard face paint on the Fed Cup. Note that it is not part of her uniform. That one is on her own.
ReplyDeleteAviez-vous remarqué que les sportifs sont rarement des intellectuels et n'ont souvent que très peu de culture ?
DeleteVoilà les raisons pour lesquelles ils ne seront que des statistiques dans le royaume du sport,lorseque nous aurons oublié leur nom.
@troy
Deletewhat's your point troy? that eugenie bouchard presumably feels canadian? so what troy? what does this show exactly? are you down to counting the no votes one by one?
and along with s.r, i'd say that if you want to underline a significant no vote with a french last name you need to dig it out from the historians, university professors and journalists pile. thing is you're an tiny bit away from making a point with the opinion of the next random dropout you come accross troy. you won't reach your goal this way mate.
By AnecTOTE
Delete"Aviez-vous remarqué que les sportifs sont rarement des intellectuels et n'ont souvent que très peu de culture ?
Voilà les raisons pour lesquelles ils ne seront que des statistiques dans le royaume du sport,lorseque nous aurons oublié leur nom."
Amen....UNTIL, of course, they compete under the fleur fe lys banner, in honor of their new "nation", then they will suddenly become, beautiful, talented, intelligent and relevant, hahahahahahahahahahahhahaahhahaahhahahah...pas vrais s.r.? You're soooooooo full of shit...LOLOLOLOLOL.
Ps: I will always remember Nadia Comeneci for the absolute marvel she was in'76, a small kid myself don't remember, much, but still today, remember her, ...and our eyes were glued to the tv to witness the perfect 10 she gave to gymnastics for the first time in history...at The Montreal Forum.
I will always remember Gaétan Boucher, and the absolute pride we felt back at the Sarajevo Winter Olympics in 1984, the Trail Blazer he was for showing the rest of Canadians how it's done...even way back then as he set the precedent. But I am sure he will be so thrilled to learn of your true opinion of him and the excellence he achieved in athletics for all time, and most especially, for this country.
Opps..Comaneci ....mea culpa.
DeleteFROM ED
DeleteYou're a slimy bitch Anectote. Youi know damn well that Apple was talking about you messing around with the trolls but you twist his post to make it look like he was talking about me. This is beneath the respectacle ethics of this blog.
You have been asked by at least a six people to stop but you ignore all of us and carry on. But it is below the belt when you spin the words of one to go against another. We're being honest with you but you spit in our face and work against us. Ed
By AnecTOTE
Delete@Brown,
You had better start warming up to the idea that I am not going away any time soon (unless Editor deems otherwise), and I am not the enemy. Also, you had better start using great restraint when addressing me, CAPITO? I don't know you from a hole in the wall, nor would I want to, and you don't know me. Should you ever make the kind of colossal mistake you just did (and you're Completely violating blog rules), where I am concerned, I will come at you with everything I've got and take no prisoners...forewarned ...you little classless drunken so-and-so. I hope we are FINALLY clear ...you monumental ignoramus.
@Mr. Sauga,
This is a long time coming, but I would like to profusely apologize to you publicly. I once came to the defense of that indecent slime, and it caused a riff between you and I for which I am immensely sorry for. I would NEVER have permitted myself had I known what a low class, disgustingly misogynist piece of crap he is. I deeply regret my faux-pas. Once again, so sorry.
FROM ED Anectote I said you're a slimy bitch and I meant it. I call them as I see them.
DeleteI'm no more afraid of you than i was at Kapyong on hill 77. At least the Chinese came stright at us not like sidewinder like you do. I'LL address you wit respecvt when you deserve it. I hate bullies. When someone points out the truth to you you come back with your claws out but it doesn't scare anyone, your word are s empty a your wisdom.
Ed
frFROM ED \
Deleteshould be hill 677 Ed
By AnecTOTE
DeleteAre you drunk?
Stop hating women because you feel inferior......learn from them ...Asshole.
Now go back to bed ..you absolute Pig, you're a bloody horror.
FROM ED
DeleteTO ALL . I know that harsh words and threats are upsetting to most people. I apologize to those who might have been upset by my actions and this is my last word on the subject. We are expected to keep a certain level of honesty to each other on this blog and that includes leaving other people's words as their own. We can put any spin we wnt on our posts but we do NOT take someone else's words and try to make it look like they are saying something else, especially something against a third party which the poster has nothing against. When we post our words are there for eternity. We cannot go back and defend ourselves if we don't kow that they have been changed. Harmony and respect for each other, please. Ed
What brilliant seppie anti-logic:
ReplyDelete"We just got our asses kicked and our blind, brainless nationalism turned against us...so let's just refer to athletes as dumb jocks with little else to offer society."
And then they wonder why they can't win a referendum to save their lives.
From Ann,
ReplyDelete@student - Quebec separation is a lose lose for everyone. The instability that it would cause would result in a devastating economic reality for Canada, for the new country of Quebec, and for the citizens in both Quebec and the rest of Canada. It will be a windfall for Marois, Lisée, Drainville etc as they will be rulers and will not have to worry about their own personal finances, their healthcare etc. Like lambs to the slaughter the average Quebecer and Canadian will end up financially messed up while the rich and the political class who have their money parked elsewhere will be sitting pretty. It is kind of like when two people get divorced, the real winners are the lawyers while the husband, wife and child end up paying through the nose. Quebec separating will be a very messy divorce with fights over property, finances, borders, contracts, you name it. The Canadian dollar will shrink even further, and there might even be civil unrest. Be careful what you wish for. The political class is playing the population for fools.
@ann
Deleteare you sure about that divorce analogy? cause what you are saying here is married couples should never divorce. religious bigots tend to think like that. is it your case ann? my guess is you're not and it's just that you had not thought it through. right ann?
I think you are wrong in one very important way Ann. Canada will not suffer at all if Quebec leaves..if anything Canada will be stronger..with an extra 15 billion per year they dont need to spend on Quebec. The dollar will drop which will boost the manufacturing sector in Ontario and be a boon to most exporters. As well many wealthy Quebecers will move to Canadabringing their money and businesses with them which will futher boost the canadian economy.
DeleteFor Quebec seperation is lose-lose..they lose 15 billion per year from Canada..they lose up to a million people who move to Canada..generally the wealthiest and brightest. They are stuck with all the people who generate little economic activitty and expect the government to take them of them..wow..in a way I would love to see this scenario play out..Quebecers actually having to standon their own two feet for once..it would be sweet.
Divorce is a poor analogy..once Quebec is gone they are not going to be receiving any alimony...ahuge difference. Wonder how many people would divorce if there was no alimony.
From Ann
DeleteMy point about the divorce analogy is that the Quebec politicians, like divorce lawyers, will be laughing all the way to the bank while the average Quebecer will suffer. There will be a flight of money, a flight of people, the health care system will get even worse without the manpower and the finances, etc. Forty years of language laws and the OQLF inspectors have already drastically hurt the economy, separation and the fighting that will ensue (as in a divorce when the couple fight over assets and liabilities) will destabilize both countries in the eyes of the world. Marois is rich so she won't get hurt by any of this. All the rich and influential people will be sitting pretty...it is the middle class and poor who will be economically devastated. Of course I believe in divorce when couples are not getting along, but sometimes couples just divorce because they think being single will give them more benefits than being part of a couple. Although I am a happily single (never married) person, I can tell you that there are more financial advantages to being married than being single. Two can live more cheaply than one. Two people sharing rent, two people sharing household expenses, two incomes instead of one. An independent Quebec would have to pay for their own border patrol, and everything else that Canada covers the bill for or helps cover the bill. I don't see how Canada is actually so horrible to Quebec, particularly with the transfer payments. Quebec governs its own immigration, does its own taxes etc. Successive Quebec governments (PQ and Liberal) have run the province into the ground, their method of fiscal responsibility and governing is not suddenly going to improve simply because they are their own country. The province has become less and less democratic and it will become even less so as its own country. To quote another expression...power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
As for Canada, there is more to having a stable country than simply having more money. There will be fighting over borders which will destabilize the country. If Quebec was geographically where Newfoundland is it would be easier, but Quebec is in between so how would there be free travel between Canada west of Quebec and Canada east of Quebec. I doubt very much that the US will suddenly open their border to have very free flow of Canadians from Ontario into Eastern Canada. If anything, border patrol would be tightened on the US side if Canada was imploding. ROC should not be so smug thinking that they would all be better off without Quebec...that is just as simplistic as the thinking that Quebec would be better off without Canada. As the expression goes...United we stand, divided we fall.
@ann
DeleteThe first part of your last comment is just parrot talk about what you were conditioned to think. your masters want you to disseminate this to scare quebeckers away from a decision that could give them control over their destiny. money will leave, brains will leave, health care will be worse, etc. all unsubstanciated blabla that quebeckers have heard since the beginning of times. carry on, it works on many, but not on me. i need meatier analysis that your usual scare tactics ann.
"Of course I believe in divorce when couples are not getting along, but sometimes couples just divorce because they think being single will give them more benefits than being part of a couple."
i think the quebec canada relationship is akin to the former: not getting along. so now you believe in divorce don't you? i'm glad you switched your opinion so fast. it means you can be reasoned with.
"An independent Quebec would have to pay for their own border patrol, and everything else that Canada covers the bill for..."
really?!? oh my god i had not tought of that. seriously ann, we're beyond this.
"Quebec (...) does its own taxes etc."
no. half of them.
"The province has become less and less democratic and it will become even less so as its own country."
that's an apparent double falsity that i invite you to develop further.
"To quote another expression...power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
why would this apply to quebec and not to other countries like canada for example?
"...so how would there be free travel between Canada west of Quebec and Canada east of Quebec."
have you ever been to europe? there you go. quebec won't close the border, why would it?!?
" ROC should not be so smug thinking that they would all be better off without Quebec..."
i totally agree, but in the long run they'll be better off too. imagine no more internal quebec issue. that's a lot of spared time and money.
"As the expression goes...United we stand, divided we fall."
so it follows that you think france and uk should be a single country. i don't agree.
From Ann,
DeleteYes, I have heard the "scare tactics" argument before from separatists. I have also heard grand denials that the economy is not really collapsing at all and that Quebec is not really moving away from democracy. Back in the 1930's when Duplessis invoked the Padlock law, Quebecers were in denial as well, both francophone and anglophone alike saw it as a great thing and the media was also on board. When the padlock law was enforced only then did Quebecers understand just how draconian and destructive it was,except, of course, to the political leaders. Keeping the head firmly planted in the sand is not something new in this province. Too bad once again Quebec will have to learn the hard way. It seems that only once the damage is done do Quebecers understand..then they quickly forget for the next time.
@ann
Deleteyou didn't address any of the counter arguments i brought forward, many of them with specific questions. can i conclude that you agree with me?
you will have to find something else than eighty years old padlock law to convince separatists that your doomsday scenario is more than a mantra.
student -
DeleteYou are one piece of work missy. You come on here telling people to bring real analysis but you provide none. Where is your great analysis? Your sole argument is that we are fear-mongering or quebec-bashing..that is not real analysis..its just deflection and rhetoric.
You want analysis..why dont you look at Montreak pre-1976 and after 1976. You honestly are telling me that Montreal has not declined at all since 1976..my assumption is you werent even born then so you have no idea what Montreal was and could have been.
Montreal was the premiere city in Canada until 1976..100 head offices left after 1976 most moving to Toronton including all the 5 large banks. Thousands of high paying jobs moved out of the city. Montreal still has one of the highest unemployment rates of any major city in Canada..the infrastructure is among the worst in the country..the skyline has barely changed since the 1970s even though every other major city in Canada has seen big changes. The provincial debt is by far the highest in Canada and we also have the highest taxes in Canada..a winning combination. Quebec spends way more on business subsidies than Ontario to try and keep more businesses from leaving..even though Ontario has 50 percent more people.
http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/-1082503.htm
Why do you think Quebec needs to spend three times more on corporate welfare than Ontario..could it be that businesses would never consider moving here otherwise. The pharamaceutical industry..the aerospace industry..the video game industry (government pays 30 percent of all employees..nice deal) and on and on. If Quebec was such an attractive place to invest in why does the Quebec government need to spend so much money enticing them to come here. Its really not rocket science missy..the taxes are sky high here..the constant politicial instability here..the anti-anglophone attitude and xenophobic nationalism does not help..the corruption and total mismanagement in most levels of government here notably provincial and municipal..the powerful and criminal unions who make quebec one of the least productive places to do business..a crumbling infrastructure that is maintained by corrupt and incompetent quebec based construction companies.
Why would any sane foreign company want to come here unless they were getting a huge subsidy or other financial deal??
Have you not noticed that number of a louer signs for commercial buildings all over this city..I noticed this when I first moved here in 2001..it has never changed..I have never seen this in any other city in Canada..there are empty buildings all over the place..why would that be if the economy is so wonderful??
People like you..students..and others who only care about a government job for life think everything is wonderful..cheap tuition..cheap rent..a job for life where you dont really need to work..but the cost for this has been the largest debt in Canada and the highest taxes and infrastructure that is literally falling on our heads..and an economy that has been chronically weak. When Quebec loses the ability to borrow infinite amounts of cheap money then all this comes crashing down..go talk to people in Spain and Greece missy and tell me that this is not coming here..
And Complicated gets the gold medal for the STFU post of the day.
DeleteTwo thumbs up, Complicated.
congratulations on your gold medal performance complicated. Canadians coast to coast are proud.
DeleteFROM ED
ReplyDeleteAnn, Apple is trying to tell us something very important. You are answering an automatic but complicated anwering machine. I'm moving his post down here hopefully with his OK so evryone can read it and learn.
".Apple IIGSSaturday, February 8, 2014 at 10:23:00 PM EST
Guys, hate to break it to you but "student" isn't real. You know those spam-bots that are programmed to flood website discussion forums with ads for Viagra, body lotions and prescription pills ? Well this is one of those bots, just slightly less elaborate. It even has a bug that improperly filters ASCII code and strips away case sensitive text.
It's programming script has it reply to all our comment posted, and then print the exact opposite opinion, no matter how absurd, ridiculous or logic defining it ends up sounding. Seems like someone even programmed in some canned sentences for it say, almost seems human sometimes! Eerie. Kind of reminds me of that game I had on my old 8-bit Apple II+ and Commodore 64 computers called ELIZA.
Ah well, kinda of fun nostalgia having an ELIZA script to play with as a distraction while we have these serious debates. Though come on guys, it's not a real AI, stop trying to talk to it like it understands you....I mean, that's just plain silly. Computer programs don't think, not yet anyway.
Whatever, anyone know the command to turn it off? I'm getting bored with it and it's just making it difficult to see actual discussion going on in here.
FROM ED Apple, you're 100 percent right. This is a damned nuicance but the but the problem we have is not the bot, it is people like Anectote and one of the Anonymouses who keep the computer replying. They know it's a wste of time because it hs been explained many times. But they choose to say t0o hell with usi and carry on. Ed
Reply
Les Suisses rejettent l'«immigration de masse»
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lapresse.ca/international/europe/201402/09/01-4737070-les-suisses-rejettent-limmigration-de-masse.php
Les Suisses sont racistes
Check out UN REFERENDUM AU MOMENT OPPORTUN
ReplyDeleteSums up the reality of the situation.
Le Québec au 5e rang du classement des médailles après 2 jours de compétition
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/lhs8wq8
Héhé!
Like most people here, I live in Montreal and am well aware that our communist has serious grievances against the language laws that have been put in place. However, as a follower of Marx, I view the Quite Revolution as the French majority overthrowing the bourgeois anglophone capitalist class that controlled the province's economy for centuries. The francophone collective majority were successful in seizing control of their own province and economy. Much like many other reactionary movements, the extremist wing of the nationalist movement seized control of the separatist movement.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Quebec has the right to separate is it wishes to, I don't sympathize with the movement because they can no longer claim any significant grievances against Canada. The majority was well capable of seizing the province's economy and have put in place laws that are oppressive to English speakers. Taking account all the federal programs that Quebec receives cash for, Quebec gets more money than pays into in taxes to the federal govt, and also get the biggest share of the equalization payments. The idea behind the equalization payments was great but it eventually became a policy that awarded incompetence. Clearly, something needs to be done about the "Quebec question" and as a Communist, I believe the working class should have the biggest say in their political future.
From Ann,
Delete@Maoist..."overthrowing the bourgeois anglophone capitalist class"....and replaced it with a bourgeois francophone capitalist class that the government is throwing money at while leaving average Quebecers, including francophones, paying for it all through their tax dollars. Problem is the hatred towards anglophones plays a big part in the economic destruction of Quebec.Instead of building on what the anglophone business community did, they spent more effort and money doing things to put them down and this did more harm than good to the economic viability of the province. Look at any country in the world where hatred for the "other" was more important and you will find a country that is not thriving. Hatred destroyed Germany and Japan. It was only when they focused on the economy not hatred that those countries thrived. Hatred destroyed the US during the Civil War. Hatred destroyed Bosnia. Hatred has not been beneficial to many countries in the Middle East. When the Israelis pulled out of Gaza, hatred drove the Palestinians to destroy infrastructure that the Israel's left behind rather than use it to recreate their institutions with that infrastructure. Hatred made a mess of Northern Ireland. After WWII Jews could have hated the entire world and acted on that hate...instead they built a thriving country in the middle of a region full of enemies, they moved to the US, Canada etc and excelled in science and medicine, winning Nobel prizes. Focusing on hatred and getting even only drags people down. Quebec has been dragged down because of their focus on hate and getting even. That is not Canada's fault, that is their own fault.
I sympathize with the francophones back in the 1960s and 70s who were effectively under the control an elite anglophone class..no arguments there. But the way it has been handled since IMO has been a disaster. Its one thing to take back the control but its another to then go out of your way to punish anyone who is anglophone or allophone and even strip away basic rights that all anglophones have. Its one thing to totally mismanage the government here, participate and/or ignore rampant corruption, to support militant unions who have seriously undermined the economy in Quebec and so on.
DeleteThe new ruling elite look as bad or worse than the old elite. I hate to say it but I see shades of Zimbabwe, South Africa, and so on..the small ruling class was justly overthrown but then the new ruling class proved to be even worse in many ways. Zimbabwe is a total disaster..South Africa is also not faring well at all. If Quebec really wants to stand on its own then it needs to PROVE that it is capable of managing affairs competently and so far if the provincial and municipal governments are any example its been a total failure.
"I view the Quite Revolution as the French majority overthrowing the bourgeois anglophone capitalist class that controlled the province's economy for centuries"
DeleteThe Quiet Revolution was in a sense a change of guard: one bourgeois class was replaced by another. The socialistic side of the QR was just empty sloganeering. Scotland's Alex Salmond, himself a banker and an elitist, uses the same populist language, while he obviously has very little to do with the Scottish working class.
This is what differentiates Third World nationalist from First World nationalism. FW nationalism (Scotland, Quebec, Catalonia, Flanders) is a movement of economically privileged people who want more. The elites want more international exposure, more recognition, more access to high level cocktail parties to feed their egos, and more control over the working classes who are led to think along national lines and distracted from thinking along class lines. The distracted populations of these societies have little to gain materially from any sort of secession, but many are still attracted to it by the Romanticist Herderian claptrap about "asserting their identities", believing that their potential will never be fully realized until their identities are acknowledged by others. Though the material needs of these people are satisfied beyond the wildest dreams of the rest of the world (3 billion people in the world live on 50 cents a day), their identity "needs" are not, and it causes a psychological "strain" and even "distortion", never allowing these people to fully "realize" their "potential". This is the kind of claptrap that emerged with Romanticism that Student subscribes to ("Quebec athletes loyal to Canada do not realize what Quebec could become").
TW nationalism lacks the Romantic side of the FW nationalism, and the class interest of the FW nationalism is muted since the TW bourgeois circles did not have the time to asset the power of FW bourgeois circles. TW nationalism is mostly about survival, about throwing off the yoke of the oppressor and creating a state where the class problems will undoubtedly emerge later on, but first the entire society must be liberated.
This is what I tell Scottish nationalists when they ask me why I support Palestinian claim to statehood but brush off the Scottish claims.
Below is a link to an excellent article by the Scottish writer John Wight on why he will be voting No in the upcoming Scottish referendum. A lot of it relates to Quebec, since both Scottish and Quebecois obsession with identity are products of the same philosophical evolution, and material interests of the elites driving these movements are also very similar.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/scottish-independence_b_4736261.html
Thanks for the link adski..he makes many interesting and valid points. I love his line on how the world really is divided into different classes rather than nationalities. I agree totally..its the elitist class which really drives the world. Now we have the french elites led by Queen Marois who want more power and they are using nationalism, fear and xenophobia to get the votes they need and many Quebecois are foolishly falling into her trap.
DeleteQuebec is surely not talking about independance because their survival is threatened..many people live very comfortable lives here and a good chunk of the reason is because they are part of one of the richest countries in the world. They certainly are not oppressed in any way..they control their immigration, their pension system , education, health and on and on. Of Course they expect Canada to pay more than its fair share to Quebec.
But fear politics seems to work. However what most people fear is not what they should fear. Its not the anglos and muslims which are to fear..its the total mismanagement of the quebec government over the past 40 years and in particular the enormous debt load we have. That is the real elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about because people prefer to bury their head in the sand than tackle it. The choices to reduce the debt are all very painful but the longer we wait to deal with it the worse the choices will be.
"hatred drove the Palestinians to destroy infrastructure that the Israel's left behind rather than use it to recreate their institutions with that infrastructure"
DeleteDesperation-driven hatred of people who have white phosphorus rained on their heads and whose children are lured by snipers to be shot at like ducks.
vs: ideologically-driven hatred:
http://iacknowledge.net/israeli-citizen-i-cut-the-heads-off-all-of-the-arab-babies/
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.209/west-bank-rabbi-jews-can-kill-gentiles-who-threaten-israel-1.4496
"instead they built a thriving country in the middle of a region full of enemies, they moved to the US, Canada etc and excelled in science and medicine, winning Nobel prizes"
Israel is a product of British colonialism. It's the West's beachhead in the oil rich region, run with Western contempt for Third World people, with Western style apartheid laws, backed by Western advanced weaponry, and rationalized with western PR techniques to whitewash the crimes as defense of "democracy", "freedom", and other bourgeois follies" which serve to distract from serious crimes, etc...(Note that top pequistes also march in every gay parade in order to give themselves "progressive" credentials and deflect attention from their other actions.)
From Ann,
Delete@Adski....I see you bought into the propaganda, even using the same buzzwords "Apartheid" and using examples of articles about the lunatic fringe in Israel. They represent Israel as much as Bain represents anglophones here or the Lev Tahor cults represent Canadian Jews. Not at all. As for the children "lured by snipers"...more like the children are encouraged by their own people to strap explosives to their bodies and be a martyr for the cause.
Ann
DeleteThe propoganda is the pro-Israel bias we see here in North America via the media and our own government. Its clearly the Palestinians who are suffering and not the Jews. Apartheid is not far from the truth Ann..there are all sorts of restrictions put on the Palestiniaisn in their own country. How much more land is Israel going to steal from them..how much is enough?
And I think its high time that Israel stand on its own two feet and stop using the USA to fight its own wars.
From Ann,
DeleteSadly the Palestinian leadership is the reason why the Palestinians have been stuck in poor living conditions. Money was pumped in and the leadership took all the money for themselves. Israel is always to blame, never the Palestinian leadership who use their own people as pawns, much like the separatist leadership use their own people as pawns here in Quebec. There is a culture in the Muslim world of violence and victimhood...Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc, they are all killing their own people and their own people live in squalor. The Palestinians are part of that collective mentality and even if they got their own state, they would still be suffering because of their own leadership. Israel is not perfect and I don't think they should continue to build settlements, but to the blame squarely on Israel for the plight of the Palestinians is not addressing the issue. It is like the PQ blaming Canada for all the ills of Quebec.
"The Palestinians are part of that collective mentality and even if they got their own state, they would still be suffering because of their own leadership. "
DeleteHer conscience has thus been cleared.
Complicated, do not disrupt her zen any more. Otherwise, she might have to dish out 100$/hour for "therapy" with a "psychologist", indulge her guilt in mindless shopping, go for a pedicure at a spa, or pop an anti-depressant.
The Palestinians have had their back pushed up against the wall by Israel for decades. They have no choice but to fight back. How many UN violations is Israel up to now? How much more land is Israel going to steal? Israel is a country which exists only because of western interests. Your statements about Muslims being violent is quite telling..how many innocent Palestinian women and children have been gunned down by over zealous Israeli military officers..far too many.
DeleteThe bottom line..the Jews in Israel are living far far better than the average Palestinian.
Le Québécois Charles Hamelin a entrepris les Jeux de Sotchi en fanfare en décrochant la médaille d'or du 1500 mètres.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lapresse.ca/sports/sotchi-2014/patinage/201402/10/01-4737175-charles-hamelin-gagne-lor-au-1500-metres.php
Un autre pure-laine
Les conservateurs voient le PQ majoritaire
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/politique/politique-canadienne/201402/10/01-4737218-les-conservateurs-voient-le-pq-majoritaire.php
Wow!...Quel sens de l'observation
SR -
DeleteBravo..Mme Marois and the PQ have discovered that promoting racism wins votes..she has sunk to a new low and it is very telling that many quebecois support a racist government..
Once again, the dullard takes only what he wants from the content he provides.
Delete"Les Québécois, à l'instar des Canadiens, demeurent fortement préoccupés par l'état de santé de l'économie et ils ne veulent pas revivre les vieilles chicanes constitutionnelles du passé, résume-t-on dans les rangs conservateurs.
Alors qu'un scrutin au Québec au printemps se profile à l'horizon, les stratèges conservateurs refusent de parler publiquement du scénario qui pourrait bousculer la donne politique sur la scène fédérale: l'élection d'un gouvernement péquiste majoritaire déterminé à relancer le débat référendaire."
Even Mr.Parizeau sees the obvious..Quebec in serious trouble..first time in 30 years he is worried..he should have been worried 10 years ago but better late than never..
ReplyDeletehttp://www.journaldemontreal.com/2014/02/09/ca-prend-un-remede-de-cheval
From Ann,
DeleteParizeau trashed minorities after he lost the 1995 referendum...then years later he chose the Jewish General Hospital for his medical care. Jean Martin Aussant, the separatist, chose an English country to run to rather than stay in Quebec where he would have earned less. The separatist politicians do major damage and then once the damage is done either run away to take care of themselves and their own well-being leaving the average francophone they duped to deal with the consequences. or they suddenly admit they were wrong once it is too late. Parizeau is wealthy so he won't be personally hurt by a worthless Quebec economy.
This is the great irony. Mme.Marois literally lives like Bianca Castifiore (Tintin) in her castle on Ile Bizard. Her husband has been implicated in some dubious dealings involving the government and government entrerprises. These people are the elite..and they are pretending to be for all quebecois..all they really want is power and money..they want to rule over a kingdom
Delete.
Its really quite stunning that such a leftist province would elect a leader who is so elitist. But she is playing the nationalist card to the tee and the fear card. Politicians use fear more and more to their advantage..here its let terrify the quebecois that muslims are invading their territory..lets terrify them about anglophones..lets terrify them about canada. If people were not scared they would never fall for all this bs.
Queen Pauline put her castle in Ile Bizard up for sale. There was a foreign buyer but the deal may have fallen through as the buyer did not meet Quebec residency laws for foreigners buying real estate. Marois now lives in a condo in Quebec city. She also has a condo in Mexico, in a building where a Mafia guy also has a condo.
DeleteTheo - Whats really sad is that most Quebecois dont seem to care about this..what does that tell you? There almost seems to be a tacid support for this type of behaviour or perhaps people expect it..its the way things are done here. Nobody seems to up in arms about all the stories from the Charbonneau commission..people whine a bit but where are the hundreds of thousands of protesters marchinig down the street demanding change..real change??
DeleteBut you could get hundreds of thousands on the streets because of a tuition fee increase which would have still maintained quebec as the lowest on the continent. I guess the only thing people really care about is what the government will do for them personally..thats the bottom line. They dont care about the integrity of the government, they dont care if the government is criminal, they dont care if the government is bankruptcing the province..they care about themselves and whats in it for me. Thats why things have to collapse here before there is any chance of them improving..people just dont get it. People like student..she doesnt get it..she expects the government to take care of her..ie other peples money to take care of her.
There is no public outrage about the lying, cheating and stealing - that's just the way it goes in Quebec. People have faith in their nanny-state to provide for them so they can overlook all that.
DeleteThere is some fallout from the corruption commission though:
"The Solidarity Fund usually collects $600-$800 million a year in new contributions, but appears to be meeting some resistance this year from the public after the unflattering portrayal of its inner workings and former leadership at the Charbonneau Commission."
http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/terminates+Yvon+Bolduc+brings+fund+chairman/9478827/story.html
I can not help but feel it is curious that S.R chooses New Orleans Saints as his avatar. Never knew that it had interest in gridiron football.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.journaldemontreal.com/2014/02/10/un-enqueteur-a-la-barre
ReplyDeleteVive le Quebec sous le FTQ!
Another example of how things are done in democratic Quebec. Bullying unions..nobody stands up to them..only the CAQ has stated they would. No wonder the Quebec government has to pay 6 billion dollars per year in corporate welfare to keep companies here..why would any company want to base themselves here when there is no rule of law??
And at the Charbonneau Commission a witness is saying that Hydro Quebec paid two crane operators a full wage plus overtime for over a year to do nothing because they brought in crane operators from Germany and the quebec union didn't like it. The guys played cards, slept in trailers and DID NOTHING! That's our quebec unions and the idiots in quebec support them!
DeleteAnd of course Parizeau came out this morning and said that quebec is living beyond it's means and that cuts have to be made! YES - finally a separatist that can see we are heading to bankruptcy and willing to admit it! The PQ are pissed - lol.
Cutie - My last link actually was about the crane operators. And the link i sent earlier was about Parizeaus comments.
DeleteSorry complicated - was in a rush and didn't have the time to check out the links - not trying to take anything away from your comments - my bad.
DeleteHere is a link to a piece on CTV regarding those workers of which there were more than two:
ReplyDeleteHydro-Quebec forced to pay do-nothing workers to keep labour peace
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/hydro-quebec-forced-to-pay-do-nothing-workers-to-keep-labour-peace-1.1678875
As for Parizeau, he is just a Quebec basher and none of what he is saying is true, he is just fear mongering,
Seriously though, I wonder if Parizeau realizes that his 1995 referendum played a huge part in the state of Quebec's economy today.
Not just the economy Laurie - the whole problem we have with "us" vs "them" mentality started with him turning people against the allophones in particular. Disgusting old man should just leave for France now and leave us to hell alone although I'm glad he has made the PQ look like they don't understand anything to do with economics. That will hurt them in the backwoods where they glean most of their votes.
DeleteAlexandre Bilodeau remporte la médaille d'or dans l'épreuve des bosses
ReplyDeleteEncore un pure-laine :)
Que font les anglo-canadiens ?