Friday, June 14, 2013

FIFA Deals PQ & FSQ Stunning Humiliation

It's not often that a prediction is borne out so quickly, (in fact the next day) but in yesterday's post I told you that the issue of the turban on Quebec soccer pitches would have to be dealt with by FIFA itself as the diametrically opposed positions of the Canadian and Quebec soccer associations was leading to a dangerous situation where all players and teams were being dragged into a world of hurt.
When Ontario teams cancelled appearances at a weekend tournament in Quebec because of the suspension, FIFA had no choice but to act.

"In the end this issue will not be resolved in Quebec or even in Canada." Link

Here's what the international body said in an email;
BY EMAIL
13 June 2013
Presidents and Executive Directors
Provincial/Territorial Soccer Associations

Dear Presidents and Executive Directors,
In accordance with the directive of the Canadian Soccer Association as outlined in its 11 April 2013 memo permitting the wearing of turbans/patkas/keski (male head covers), we wish to inform you that the International Football Association Board (IFAB) and FIFA have authorized the wearing of male head covers in all areas and on all levels of the Canadian football community.

The following conditions must be met:
Be of the same colour as the jersey
Be in keeping with the professional appearance of the player’s equipment
Not be attached to the jersey
Not pose any danger to the player wearing it or any other player

For clarity, please find examples of the IFAB permitted head covers enclosed.
Thank you for your implementation of this policy and your assistance in ensuring the long term growth and development of the sport of soccer in Canada.

Warm regards,

Peter Montopoli
General Secretary

 Prompting the CSA to issue this:



The affirmation by FIFA is a stunning setback not only to the Quebec Soccer Association, but the PQ as well, which hitched its sovereigntist governance star to the issue and which encouraged the FSQ to maintain their position in the face of the Canadian Soccer Association's suspension.

It would have been the perfect political gambit, the Quebec public and the Quebec press lined up massively in support of the anti-turban ban.

Just yesterday, Richard Martineau of Le Journal de Montreal said this, which is pretty representative of views the French press had on the issue;
"How do you arrive at a solution to satisfy everyone in such a case? You have two parties who do not speak the same language! Two clans who do not live on the same planet! So at a certain moment, somebody  must decide.
Canada sees things one way, we another. Every people draws the lines according to its values.The Canadian solution is neither worse nor better than ours.And ours, neither better nor worse than their own." Link

I can only comment  that Mr. Martineau should rework his article and exchange this line;
"Canada sees things one way, we another."
for this line;
"The world sees things one way, we another."

For the PQ, it will be hard to explain that their position is utterly rejected by the world body and most importantly, it will be hard to explain to its own constituency how the world sees things one way and they the other.

The worst of it all is that the Canadian Soccer Association triumphed and the Quebec Soccer federation whipped rather painfully.

It is a cold and distasteful dish of humble pie.....

Look for a quiet and subdued reaction by the losers, with the PQ downplaying the disaster as a 'soccer issue' and nothing else.
Remember, yesterday it was an issue to sovereigntist governance, with the PQ pushing the FSQ to maintain its position even in the face of the suspension.
Today, for the PQ its time to move on to the next chicane.

In a hilarious and galling example of Quebec spin and effrontery, the FSQ greeted the news by saying it was happy that FIFA had finally settled the issue.

And by the way, since the French media was also invested in the anti-turban position, look for a united effort to sweep this humiliating affair under the 'carpette.'

198 comments:

  1. This issue has shown the world what Quebec as a nation would look like -- isolated, by its own hand, from the rest of the world.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Beep beep beep!" That's the sound of Marois going forward by aiming backward... AGAIN!!!

      Typical Formula Q:
      http://ygreck.typepad.com/ygreck/2013/06/formule-q.html

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    2. "I reverse so often that my car has a forward alarm." - P. Marois

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=511674632219121

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    3. Each time shows them up for what they really are. Thank God for computers and social networks or this province would be living in the 1700 hundreds.

      Delete
  2. While i agree usually with the bulk of what you say and stand for, I do want to point out that La Presse and her journalists generally wrote AGAINST the turban ban, whereas Le Journal de Montreal wrote for the ban. Not all French media subscribes to the xenophobic views of the government and the hardliners.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just because their base follows "mob rule" logic, the PQ think that they are going to win a majority next election and pick these battles to show "we don't need no damn Canada" and/or "we don't need no damn business" to live our lives. No matter how often they are proven wrong, they will still pick some cause to show that they are "different" than others in Canada. Thank God there are established values in North America that are always going to prove they are not that different - if they choose to be that different, they will become a very isolated, lonely little part of North America with nothing to prove except how selfish and backward they really are while the rest of us move forward without them. The Editor is right - they will try to bow out of this without coming off as the racists and bigots they really are. Watch the scrambling over the next few days to get out from under.

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  3. Marois has really for the most part cooked here own goose on this one. Unfortunately it is the players that are paying the price ....as so often is the case where innocents are caught by those with political agendas. Wonder how convoluted the PQ response will be on this one.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Meanwhile, in keeping with a soccer metaphor, Quebec is doing a fantastic job kicking the ball...right out of the province! GO QUEBEC GO!


    --
    -130 unionized employees at Old Dutch Foods in Lachine will be laid off when the 50-year-old plant shuts permanently in late September.

    -In mid-July, the first 200 of 1,300 workers at the Swedish-owned Electrolux cooking appliances plant slated for closing in L’Assomption will be thrown out of work.130 unionized employees at Old Dutch Foods in Lachine will be paid full salary until the 50-year-old plant shuts permanently in late September.

    -Next spring, the Mexican-owned Mabe Canada dryer factory in east-end Montreal will close, leaving several hundred more without jobs.

    -And in another example, in Châteauguay and Quebec City, 150 workers at Original Foods will be unemployed when the company moves to Ontario.

    Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Closing+insult+Dutch+workers/8527481/story.html#ixzz2WE6qfEhn

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's OK - they'll blame the ROC and try to blackmail them into some kind of payout for these unfortunate people or will make that a promise for when they gain their independence - whatever, it will be someone else's fault and the spin will be that it would never happen if they weren't part of Canada.

      Delete
    2. @unemployment quebec

      sure. and how many new jobs popped up in the same period? last time i checked unemployment was down, so you must be overlooking important things here, mate.

      Delete
    3. Sadly, it was just announced that La Senza, a Montreal born and bred company (sold to Victoria's Secret) is moving its distribution centre to Columbus, Ohio.
      Scratch another 70 jobs.

      Delete
    4. Et...

      Jean Coutu déménage à Varennes

      http://tvanouvelles.ca/lcn/economie/archives/2013/05/20130529-092220.html

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    5. You'd better write and complain about Jean Couteau to the language police - they still treat me with respect and speak english to me plus they have press 2 on their machine for english rather than 9 or none. This disrespect must be reported. Do your job you little freak! Oh of course, they're interested in my business plus the English all over because they have stores in NB and Ont. Guess it wouldn't do much good because they still want my money.

      Delete
    6. From statscan

      "Given that job growth was much higher than the increase in the population aged 15 and over during the past year, the employment rate rose by a percentage point. Moreover, with the pronounced decrease in the number of unemployed workers, the unemployment rate is continuing the downward trend it has been on since the last quarter of 2011. The current level is 7.4%, the lowest since the last recession. We note that the unemployment rate in Québec has reached this level twice: in the second quarter of 2008, just before the recession, and in the 3rd quarter of 2011, when the recovery was well under way."

      The employment rate went up by 1% in Quebec from may 2012-2013, lower than the national average of 1.4%, we must be doing something wrong if we can't bounce back from a recession like the rest of Canada. I mean the PQ tried to fudge the numbers by handing out multiple jobs to its' cronies, too bad no one told them that's not how the rate is calculated.

      Delete
    7. student,

      sure. and how many new jobs popped up in the same period?

      How many? Please tell us. Or else, you are just full of hot air.

      Delete
    8. well troy i raised the fact that unemployment numbers are on a downwards trend. this should be enough for you to figure out more jobs have been created then lost. therefore the initial comment here gives a unrealistic impression. don't you agree troy?

      Delete
    9. actually unemployment can go down even if less jobs are created then lost. but my previous conclusion remains valid. listing a few closed shops hoping to induce negative feelings is dishonest, to say the least.

      Delete
    10. Matt Gurney: Good news! Everyone in line at the Quebec unemployment office speaks French
      Matt Gurney | 2012/10/01

      Quebec already lags behind most other provinces in business start-ups and employment. Soon, it might find itself even further behind, with most of the benefits of the hard work of Quebec’s best and brightest flowing down the 401 right to Toronto.

      Over the weekend, the Montreal Gazette ran a long feature profiling the Montreal company Kovasys. It’s a small start-up, run by a entrepreneur in his mid-20s, Alex Kovalenko. His company does head-hunting and recruitment for software and IT companies. Business has been going well — so well that Kovalenko wants to take his staff from 12 to perhaps as many as 30.

      This should be a success story for Quebec. But it isn’t. Kovalenko is considering directing all these hires to his company’s satellite office in Toronto, making the success of a business in Montreal a good thing for another city and province. The reason? The Parti Quebecois’ proposed tightening of workplace language laws would be too onerous for Kovalenko’s business to sustain if he insists on keeping its growth in Quebec. So it must grow elsewhere, or not at all.

      Chalk up another victory for the French language in Quebec. Pretty soon, everyone in the workplace will speak French all the time. That won’t be many people at all, but hey. They’ll be speaking French. […]

      Yes, employees can serve customers or clients in English, when necessary. But the language in the workplace is expected to be French. This includes all formal documents, all memorandum and corporate communications, all websites and promotional materials not targeted at a non-French speaking audience. It also is expected that French be the language that management uses when dealing with staff, and even that staff use among each other during meetings. The business is required to have a certificate of “francization” that must be renewed every three years.

      Businesses with fewer than 50 employees, however, are exempt from some of these requirements. Meetings can be held in English. Memos can also be recorded in that language. There is no requirement that the business be certified French. The PQ has mused about tightening up the regulations for businesses over 50 employees, but more significantly, extending those same regulations down to companies with more than 10. This would bring tens of thousands of new business — the outright majority of companies in Quebec – under the more stringent requirements.

      Delete
    11. Businessmen like Kovalenko aren’t interested. Larger companies can handle the bureaucratic hurdles imposed by needing to be French certified and producing all business documents, even internal ones, in French. But smaller businesses are leaner by necessity. Entrepreneurs who run their own businesses are often already working long hours, and doing two or three jobs, to keep costs down. Adding additional work to them often simply isn’t possible, at least without robbing time and energy from more productive efforts. They can hire more help, of course, but the reason the entrepreneur works hard and late is to avoid hiring extra people until they absolutely need the help to keep their business growing.

      Extending the current laws down to small business, or perhaps extending even more stringent laws, will be hailed by the government as yet another sign that it is promoting Quebec’s language and culture. But at what cost? The mere prospect of tightened and expanded language laws in the work place is already serving as a brake on Quebec’s economy, leading to fewer start-ups, fewer employees and Quebecers who have built companies exporting the fruits of their success to other markets where hiring motivated staff isn’t quite so burdensome. Some victory for Quebec. The language warriors are pulling the temple down on their heads, but the important thing is that all the workers tugging on the ropes are speaking French.

      And the final irony? Kovalenko’s employees are effortlessly bilingual. It’s a non-issue in the office. The French language is doing just fine at Kovasys. Not that that will stop the government from killing bludgeoning the golden goose with a spiral-bound version of Bill 101. Making sure that Quebecers have good, high-paying jobs in their community isn’t as important as micromanaging how those citizens communicate with each other.

      National Post
      mgurney@nationalpost.com

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    12. student,

      Of course you can not substantiate your claim. What - if any - can be expected from you?

      Delete
    13. "...in Châteauguay and Quebec City, 150 workers at Original Foods will be unemployed when the company moves to Ontario."

      Good for us. Bad for you!

      For the ignoramuses who think a lower unemployment rate in Quebec is good, think again.
      If you're not looking for work while on EI, YOU DON'T COUNT!
      If your EI benefits run out, whether you're looking for work or not, YOU DON'T COUNT!
      If you're on welfare benefits, YOU DON'T COUNT!
      If you're unemployed and living on your savings, YOU DON'T COUNT!
      If you're on a government-subsidized training for jobs that don't exist, YOU DON'T COUNT!
      If you take courses on your own unsubsidized, YOU DON'T COUNT!

      Government does everything it possibly can to keep the "official" unemployment numbers down. The "hidden" unemployed is very high. Too, those working "under the table" don't count among employed statistics.

      Delete
    14. While language policies have certainly been the cause of companies moving to Ontario, I wouldn't blame the PQ when a Quebec company gets moved to the states. I would blame laissez-faire capitalism and free trade.

      Delete
    15. EDM: Written like a vrai Québécois. The horrors of capitalism. What are you, a follower of Amir Khadir? Did you ever consider that maybe the costs of francization are imposing? Did you ever consider the fact labour laws are too slanted against businesses? Unionized shops are a bureaucracy unto themselves. Endless grievances, endless committees, endless language nonsense.

      Laissez-faire capitalism enables companies to seek the path of least resistance at the lowest production costs. What's wrong with that?

      Delete
    16. Get back to me when the past of least resistance takes your job to the third world, Sauga.

      Oh that's right - you're probably in a field where that has little chance of happening - you can afford to be righteous with other people's problems.

      Delete
  5. Évidemment un anglo...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cBG2_QlY_t4#!

    "Je paye des taxes ici..."

    Donc je peux contrevenir aux lois...Moron!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. J'aime les dernières secondes de la vidéo Hahaha!!!

      Delete
    2. Glad you did, no one else watched it.

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    3. Honnêtement je trouve ça dégradant pour le pauvre gars: Attaché et transporté comme un animal.Malheureusement,va falloir s'habituer à ce genre de scène...

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    4. "...no one else watched it."

      Vidéo mise en ligne le 13 Juin et déjà plus 2,000 visionnements.

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    5. 2,000 views?? Is that all???

      Here...have a look at this....+2,000,000 views...LOL...
      "You Are Not Special"
      Amen !!

      Delete
    6. Steve est un anglas (voir les dernières secondes de la vidéo) et nous sommes rendu à...à...61,240 Wow!

      Delete
  6. LordDorchester

    Turbans are permitted, case closed. The CSA was right on this one and should be applauded for publicly spanking the Quebec Soccer Federation. They handled a political hot potato that would have sent typical spineless politicians in Ottawa ducking for cover firmly and justly. To those that avocated for the ban in the PQ or on this blog, your "reasoning" was blown out of water and your thinly veiled racisim has been exposed. On this issue, Marois comes out reeking of dog shit. From now on getting caught on camera shaking her hand has just become a political liability.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @lord dorchester

      of course as a classic quebec basher you are trying to interpret all this as the whole world is right and only quebec is wrong. and the worst wrong possible too: racist, bigot, backwards, etc. and as your kind likes being lied to about quebec, the hatred will spread all the way to the the far ends of the english lands.

      that's you.

      now for the respectful free thinking observer who prefers facts, here’s a fair account of the latest developments:

      what fifa did is allow the canadian federation to allow canadian football players to play with headwear. please refer to the real statement by fifa (http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/organisation/ifab/news/newsid=2109325/index.html) instead of the Canadian association email posted above. you’ll see that it is actually broadening the headscarf (hijab) experiment that is currently being conducted on all women to canadian men. canadians only. the results of this experiment are to be examined in october, and a final decision will be made next march. if they want to gather data to support next year's definite decision, insignificant canada is the perfect country with which to do so. and as i still can’t imagine fifa will take the risk of having to deal with a world cup winning goal being scored on a turban caused fluke, i expect next year’s final recommendations to specify a thin and smooth cap, and no turbans.

      so now the sikh turban will be allowed on canadian pitches, but not in india. ironic isn’t it?

      also, the precisions regarding the characteristics of what is allowed proves that the quebec federation was right in not accepting just any old turban on the field.

      finally, the referee still is the ultimate guardian of the player’s safety, just like before. so if a turban is loose, or if it’s held together with a bobby pin or any other sharp object, the referee will still have the power to send the player and his overly devout dad home. this doesn’t change.

      as for the pq, it just supported its federation decision to rely on fifa for a precision on the rules. and it criticized canada for turning this into a political issue and creating the conditions for a new round of quebec bashing. pauline marois has nothing to be ashamed of in this latest episode.

      p.s. i'm surprised that no concern has been expressed by fifa about the interference the grapefruit-size knot will cause upon headshots. it's probably one of the things they will want to study in the next few months.

      Delete
    2. "...about the interference the grapefruit-size knot will cause upon headshots."

      Effectivement très surprenant...À suivre...

      Delete
    3. The most positive way of looking at it QSF is incompetent and can't actually read FIFA rules or understand that turbans pose no threat no players, worst case scenario the whole thing was motivated by them being bigots, take your pick I guess, not really a positive in there.

      As to Marois she should be ashamed because she is so incompetent as to not realize that the QSF is subservient to the CSA, just as the CSA is subservient to FIFA. I get she is a seperatist and in her mind people in Quebec can do anything they want regardless of the rest of the world, but unfortunately for her, she is wrong. She is also guilty of not understanding that there was no actual FIFA ban on turbans.

      The rules are as they always were and are what the CSA told the CFA, its up to the referee, the difference is all referees will allow turbans because they're not idiots and know they pose no risk to safety, can't say the same about the PQ or the QSF.

      As to the magical turban goal scoring ability, you're just being ridiculous, it'd be like banning someone with a specific head shape because the ball would bounce slightly different off of it.

      Delete
    4. Typical separatist spin That Guy - Never, ever admit you're wrong = make it look like your more thoughtful than everyone else. Idiots.

      Delete
    5. @thatguy

      "The most positive way of looking at it QSF is incompetent and can't actually read FIFA rules..."

      well one thing that's for sure is they can read better than you, mate.

      fifa made a special temporary pilot project rule to allow hijabs last year. obvisouly it is a rule that applies only to women. and the turban being at least as invasive as the hijab, it was quite logic for any federation to wait for another similar directive from fifa before allowing it. don't you think so thatguy? or maybe you prefer not to think at all and carry on with the crazytalk?

      Delete
    6. Dudent said: "p.s. i'm surprised that no concern has been expressed by fifa about the interference the grapefruit-size knot will cause upon headshots."
      And I'm surprised that you're surprised. If the topknot injects an element of unpredictability into where the ball is going, that's a handicap to the player, not an unfair advantage. So where does the problem lie? A fluke goal might win a game? Well, that's never happened before, has it?
      He also said: "and as i still can’t imagine fifa will take the risk of having to deal with a world cup winning goal being scored on a turban caused fluke, i expect next year’s final recommendations to specify a thin and smooth cap, and no turbans."
      I don't know if you have ever watched World Cup Soccer, but at that level of play, they seem to have a ball control pretty well in hand, and when heading the ball it generally makes contact exactly where they want it to. Watch next time and you'll see.
      Dudent also babbled: "so if a turban is loose, or if it’s held together with a bobby pin or any other sharp object, the referee will still have the power to send the player and his overly devout dad home."
      Or, and here's a radical, thinking-outside-the-box idea, the player could get sent to the sidelines to re-tie it.

      Delete
    7. @diogenes

      "...that's a handicap to the player, not an unfair advantage."

      not true. if the player was to miss his shot and because of the knot the ball is divreted straight then it's an unfair advantage to the sikh.

      "A fluke goal might win a game? Well, that's never happened before, has it?"

      of sourse it has. too many times, that's why i think it would be better not to adopt new rules that will increase the number of fluke goals.

      "at that level of play, they seem to have a ball control pretty well in hand, and when heading the ball it generally makes contact exactly where they want it to."

      of course they are really good. but i don't agree with you. typically a team will shoot 10 to 15 times towards the goal during a game. and usually they will score 2 or 3 goals. this means 12 to 13 times the attacker didn't quite nail it "exactly where he wants to". but even if you were right and world cup dudes were ultra precise 99% of the time, you won't get this skill level when pei meets yukon. and since the rules are made to be standard...

      "...the player could get sent to the sidelines to re-tie it."

      well... no. it the turban is loose, it means it can loosen up. if it can loosen up it can fall on the ground, get in the way and cause a turned ankle. and no, it is not acceptable, in a serious league game, that the turban guy has to exit after every other corner kick. the contacts are often violent up there. you check it next time you have a chance. and the referee has many things to check other than the stiffness of everyone's turban. you have to imagine 22 turbans on the pitch here. in the world cup final. of course it's not likely to ever happen, but a rule has to handle all theoritical situations.

      Delete
    8. The fact that he continues to equate a turban with a hat simply demonstrates his determined insistence on remaining ignorant. The wearing of a turban is not at all a casual fashion option as is the wearing of a baseball cap. It’s embarrassing that a sheltered separatist, even at this late date, is still trying to argue against imaginary, phantom dangers that have never happened.

      He is acting as though Quebec is dealing with some sort of brand-new issue that has never arisen in Western society before. The fact of the matter is that Quebec is behind the curve in terms of desirable places for immigration and that this simple issue has long ago been settled everyplace else where it has ever come up. That is why very rigourous soccer jurisdictions have all been OK with turbans for a long time already. Even Major League Soccer’s own Montreal Impact has gone on the record as being OK with turbans.

      In any event, actual turbans are never worn while playing sports; it is a simple patka or a keski that is worn (at least that separatist’s close-mindedness has been opened up by that tiny little speck). And besides, those suckers are tied on tight! They never unravel.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6gBwv4fjDU

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    9. Just stop shaming we Quebecers with your ridiculous, nonsensical arguments already. Just stop it. Stop it right now. Yes, this instant. You are too late to the game and your antiquated ideas carry no weight. Plus, you are shaming us. Did I mention that?

      Or, on the other hand, continue doing what you are doing and prove to world that Quebec is an angry, frustrated, ethnocentric, bubbled-up, xenophobic, backward place that doesn’t deserve to ever become a modern country. Your choice, mate.

      Delete
    10. LordDorchester

      @Student

      Keep espousing your verbal diarrhea, you're only digging yourself deeper in the mud. Your position is racist and indefensible. And your sudden concern for the safety of children playing soccer rings about as hollow as a chocolate Dollar Store easter egg. Maybe next you can explain to the rest of us why it's safer for Black people to sit in the back of the bus than in the front? Or why public water fountains should be race specific in order to avoid any cross-contamination? Your Queen, Marois, is an ignorant fool who is a stain on the reputation of my Province, Quebec. She doesn't speak for me and doesn't represent me. Her values and my values don't mesh at all. Being critical of her and her racist policies is not Quebec bashing. It's racist bashing and I highly encourage it.

      Delete
    11. FROM ED
      To those that avocated for the ban in the PQ or on this blog, your "reasoning" was blown out of water and your thinly veiled racisim has been exposed.

      Dorchester, get your reasoning straight. Those who were for the ban because the players are sikhs are racist. Those that agreed with the ban for safety reasons are not Racists. Personally, I feel that the sikhs could have simply made an adjustment to their rules like the female Sikhs do when they play sports so I guess in your mind I'm racist. So be it. Ed

      Delete
    12. LordDorchester

      Please Ed, I respect your opinion but I can't let what you said stand. If these people are so concerned about the safety of children how can they possibly sleep at night knowing that every day in Quebec dozens of kids gets hurt playing ice hockey in fights, collisions or concussions. I don't hear anyone bellyaching about the pure violence that happens DAILY on the ice here, so please excuse me if I seem somewhat cynical about those that supported the ban on humanitarian grounds. The safety angle was a red herring as far as I'm concerned. I grew up with Sikh kids, all of whom had a hell of a hard time growing up here because of attitudes from people concerned about their "safety". Some even cut their hair just to fit in after constant leers and jabs. Bottom line, these kids can resume playing soccer and the QSF along with the Marois government has egg on its face.

      Delete
    13. The following is worth repeating:

      "Keep espousing your verbal diarrhea, you're only digging yourself deeper in the mud. Your position is racist and indefensible. And your sudden concern for the safety of children playing soccer rings about as hollow as a chocolate Dollar Store easter egg. Maybe next you can explain to the rest of us why it's safer for Black people to sit in the back of the bus than in the front? Or why public water fountains should be race specific in order to avoid any cross-contamination? Your Queen, Marois, is an ignorant fool who is a stain on the reputation of my Province, Quebec. She doesn't speak for me and doesn't represent me. Her values and my values don't mesh at all. Being critical of her and her racist policies is not Quebec bashing. It's racist bashing and I highly encourage it."

      Thank you LD

      Delete
  7. Wait a second… what happened to the safety argument for intolerance? No, wait, I mean, what happened to the headshot argument for intolerance? Quebec’s so-called “values” suddenly go poof because someone in Switzerland confirmed that the world is right and Quebec is wrong.

    The QSF and PQ couldn’t possibly have handled this situation any worse if they had tried. By making negative headlines around the world, they have dealt yet another black eye to Quebec simply to try to create a phoney jurisdictional issue with Canada. The QSF is a member organization of the CSA and receives the majority of its funding from them.

    FIFA didn’t really “settle the issue”, they simply confirmed the directive that the CSA had already issued in April and which had no valid reason to be challenged. So now the so-called “autonomous” QSF and Quebecers are going to act perfectly fine with throwing their so-called “values” into the garbage can, simply because Ottawa’s directive has been confirmed by Zurich. If Quebec wanted to be told what to do by Zurich instead of being told what to do by Ottawa, it could have been done quietly and without all this divisive and harmful public intrusion by the PQ.

    Marois says this shows they were right to wait for FIFA. Is she in charge of the QSF now? What an evil cow. She lies to us right in our faces and her intolerant base laps it right up.

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    Replies
    1. @r.s

      "what happened to the safety argument...?"

      no change. referee still has the last word. please tell me, how is a turban held together? is there a pin or something that closes the origami, or is it just tied onto itself?

      "what happened to the headshot argument...?"

      as far as i'm concrned this argumnt is still alive and well. don't you agre a grapefruit on your head will hinder the ball's rebound from the same head?

      "By making negative headlines around the world, they have dealt yet another black eye to Quebec..."

      qsf and pq didn't make any negativ headline. but you did plenty.

      "they simply confirmed the directive that the CSA had already issued in April..."

      as is proven by the difference between the csa guidelines and the fifa new rule, qsf did well in seeking a confirmation. fifa makes the rules, not csa.

      "Marois says this shows they were right to wait for FIFA. Is she in charge of the QSF now?"

      no, but as a premier being asked a question by a journalist, it was a great decision from her to give a response.

      "What an evil cow."

      you insult, she wins.

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    2. They're so gullible it actually laughable except it's so diabolical. Only they seem to like to make assholes of themselves all over the world. No wonder no one wants to move here. They're intellectual terrorists in drag.

      Delete
    3. "no change. referee still has the last word. please tell me, how is a turban held together?"

      No change? this matter was supposed to have been sealed with a government decision, with referee out of it.

      Now it's at a discretion of a referee, and some turbans might be disqualified under particular conditions (like cleats for being too long for example), while most won't.

      How is that no change?


      "as far as i'm concrned this argumnt is still alive and well."

      Really? What's with the tails between the legs?

      This battle is over just like the one against the big 5 chains.


      "qsf and pq didn't make any negativ headline. but you did plenty."

      Yes, it all came from us. If it wasn't for us, this turban debacle would not have happened.


      "qsf did well in seeking a confirmation"

      They made a decision which was challenged by the CSF. They stood by the decision which was then challenged by FIFA. They then turned tails and ran trying to cover their tracks.

      This is a case of politely and meekly submitting to stronger authority, not of seeking confirmation.

      Delete
    4. "Quebec’s so-called “values” suddenly go poof because someone in Switzerland confirmed that the world is right and Quebec is wrong"

      Their "values" go poof the minute stronger authority spanks them. Which only confirms that brats need a spanking sometimes.

      How about their anti-English ("pro-French") values going poof the minute they have to deal with Americans.

      Delete
    5. This just in:

      http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/montreal/Quebec+soccer+body+lifts+turban/8531278/story.html

      QFS lifts ban !!!! Look who sent who home "to play in their backyards"
      Omg do they ever look like fools on the world stage now. This is why Quebec will never be a nation...Amateurs.

      Delete
    6. "don't you agre a grapefruit on your head will hinder the ball's rebound from the same head?"

      Maybe the grapefruit on your head...(moron)

      Delete
    7. Immigrants are here and they are here to stay !! If you don't like it, you can pretty much lump it !!!

      I often don't agree with what Yannick has to say, but the other day he actually made sense...if you don't care for new immigrants multiplying and populating Quebec...then start making babies yourselves...OTHERWISE...CAN IT.

      Delete
    8. Dudent, if you're you're the end-product of the Quebec school system, I weep for the future of the province even if it doesn't separate.
      "not true. if the player was to miss his shot and because of the knot the ball is divreted straight then it's an unfair advantage to the sikh."
      For it to be an unfair advantage to the turbaned player, the knot would have to improve a measurable percentage of the head shots that hit it, so you must think that predictability is actually increased by the knot. Weren't you worried about fluke goals earlier? Make up your mind.
      "please tell me, how is a turban held together? is there a pin or something that closes the origami, or is it just tied onto itself"
      If you have no idea of how it is held together, then your ridiculous safety "argument" is based solely on it being a theoretical risk rather than a quantifiable one. Do you know how many turbans have come undone over the past 10 years in Quebec? Of those, how many caused one of the players to trip as a result? Of the ones who tripped, how many were injured? Of the ones injured, how many required medical treatment? Do some research, and report back.

      "well... no. it the turban is loose, it means it can loosen up. if it can loosen up it can fall on the ground, get in the way and cause a turned ankle. and no, it is not acceptable, in a serious league game, that the turban guy has to exit after every other corner kick. the contacts are often violent up there. you check it next time you have a chance. and the referee has many things to check other than the stiffness of everyone's turban."
      This one is so laughable that I won't waste time on it. I do look forward to your explanation of how the world is really flat. How disappointing for someone of your age to become duped into being amouthpiece for the seppies.
      Dance, puppet, dance!

      Delete
    9. Diogenes, while I see the interest in debunking separatist arguments, I believe your arguments will fall on deaf ears. There was a link posted on the wednesday page describing in detail how the turbans used to cover hair buns (the so-called Grapefruit) are made; Mr. Student actually commented on it, which means that he presumably clicked on the link. However, the presentation debunks most of our studious friend's concerns, so he obviously did not look at all of it.

      As a simple example, had Dudent actually read the whole thing instead of the first two slides, he would know that a)the turban is not held with anything other than itself, and b) it is exceptionally tight (so much that you can't fit a finger underneath it) due to the wrapping technique; essentially the cloth is wound very tight and then the end is tucked underneath its side. Caps in baseball would be infinitely more likely to fall from player's heads, shall we look into the statistics of injuries caused by dangerous caps?

      The whole discussion is a complete red herring and by persisting in it the separatists are showing their best skill - making mountains out of mole hills. I could not find a better allegory for the futility of the sovereignty movement as it currently exists than this whole debacle over frigging hats on kids playing ball.

      You've heard the old adage, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Likewise, it is useless to try and get Dudent to present sources or argue logically, or even acknowledge your argument and discuss in a rational manner. It is the reason why I categorically refuse to engage with him.

      Delete
    10. You're right, of course, Yannick. I should probably just ignore him as I do Y.L and S.R.
      One of my pet peeves is the the decline in civility in modern society. His snotty attitude toward other posters always implies to me that he learned everything he knows about social interaction from watching American sitcoms, and they beg a response. It is self-indulgent to go after him, so I'll try doing what some others do and just ignore him.

      Delete
    11. Cat once described it as "scratching an itch", it was a very apt description. Just like a mosquito bite, though, scratching it only provides short-term relief, it doesn't make it go away.

      Another issue - even if turbans were to be banned, there would still be a 'grapefruit' on Sikh boys' heads, since the 'grapefruit' is a hair bun. Will we also ban hair buns? Perhaps we can give everyone a shave so that equality reigns on the soccer field.

      Delete
  8. """In mid-July, the first 200 of 1,300 workers at the Swedish-owned Electrolux cooking appliances plant slated for closing in L’Assomption will be thrown out of work.

    Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Closing+insult+Dutch+workers/8527481/story.html#ixzz2WF4WorXb
    """

    S.R.

    That's another 1300 monthly unemployment payments that the govt has to try to squeeze out as extra taxes.

    I know you and your friends don;t pay taxes except on wine but that's kinda that problem.

    When everyone you know is getting more from the government then whet they put in, things stop working.

    That applies even to Quebec.

    Sure it takes some time. Governments can borrow for decades to avoid the problem.

    The Quebec "knowledge economy" is sure doing well after Bombardier loses this contract. Seppies can tell themselves anythign they want.

    There were 100 jobs at head office in R&D positions that were going to get payed in Quebec. Every new job requires R&D and writeoffs.

    We would build more Victoria bridges that last 150 years and less Champlain bridges that last 40 years if "R&D"(grants), symbolism and wasting cash on construction unions wern;t the main priorities in Quebec.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-business-stories/bombardier-officially-out-as-uk-finally-awards-huge-contract-to-rival-siemens/article12549801/

    ReplyDelete
  9. FROM ED
    Editor, I'm bringing forth a post from yesterday to which I have made several changes. Please bear with me.

    Cutie is one of the few who makes it clear that she is bashing the Quebec government and not the people of Quebec. This sort of thing puts down all of us just for the sake of jumping in and saying something nasty like Une gars. It makes ourselves look bad. In the words of Pogo "We have met the enemy and they are us."
    For the apologists like Complicated (God love his hairy little heart) Before the sixties both sides worked well together. there was no animosity, both sides were just trying to make a living, build homes for their families and create housing for men returning from war. Many soldiers returned to find their families already ensconched in a nice little bungalow in Crawford Park, Ville Emard or St. Laurent where entire communities had been built with modern kitchen, bathroom and landscaped.
    French and English worked together on the development of Hydro beginning with Montreal, light heat and power. All service was in English because the English were the ones who went for it right away. A lot of homes in East Montreal were lighting with gas lamps right up to the fifties.
    Francophones always ruled Quebec. My Father who could not speak French used to pick the brains of two of our neighbours; Mr. Emil Poirier who lived across the street and Pierre Garon a Quebec court judge who lived nearby. He would discuss with them who the candidates were and usually voted for which ever they suggested. My father taught me to read using History books and I have been deep into history and politics ever since. He discussed every election and political situation with me right up to the time of his death. having been blessed with a strong memory I'm able to look back fairly and tell it like it was. Ed Part 1

    ReplyDelete
  10. Just gassin Part II
    In the sixties there was a terrible turmoil when the Liberal Government of Jean Lesage took the running of the Province from the Roman Catholic Church. The Church played the freedom of religion card and so they were allowed to keep control of welfare and the curriculum for the schools. The Church tried to make it look like the English protestants were responsible for this. Lesage was a powerful man and he made it clear this was being done by a government of Francophones. He didn't want the English to get credit for the idea which we sure as hell didn't want either. Anyway by then most Catholics were tired of the Church's greed with Priests going into their homes demanding money from the poor as well as the wealthy so they ignored Lionel Groulx and his band of avenging angels. After the sixties the Province and Montreal were still governed by French politicos but the population worked together as friends. It was only in 1978 when the twenty five year old son of an old friend came to my home that I noticed a change in the air. Suddenly it seems, he would not speak English to me and he was angry at me. Me! The first one he ran to when they arrived at our campground at Plattsburgh. "Uncle Ed, play ball." he loved to kick the soccer ball with me. I realized this was not the same little fellow that fell asleep in my arms sitting around the camp fire, or the teen that I taught how to drive safely. I'll never forget his words, "Vous aller voir., vous anglais. Rene Levesque est en charge, vous aller voir." his words cut me like a knife. When he left I had a tear running down my nose and realized something wonderful was going out of my life. I watched my friends and some family go west to keep their jobs over the next few years.
    I felt a coldness creep into Quebec. In the stores people seemed afraid to speak English and I felt a subdued gloating from old pal Francophones. Rene Levesque may not have been seen as an English hater but he instilled in Francophones a dishonest sensation that we were the enemy. Contrary to what people who don't know tell you like Complicated, there was love and respect between the solitudes until he came along. (Rene not Complicated.)
    As for the future, I see it going down this way. When Liberals are elected the PQ will be exterminated and bill 14 will die a natural death. When Dr. Couillard orders the death of other legislation the Federal franks will gladly be pall bearers. most french people will begin to see the uselessness of it anyway and people will start to commune. Ed

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. One of my parents is franco and the other is anglo. They grew up in Montreal in the big bad old 1930s, 1940s and 1950s in French and English, respectively, in what is today called the Plateau. And yet, they both had access to similar education and to similar job opportunities (in fact, that’s how they met). They were married in the early 1960s even though they could barely speak each other’s language when they got married. How could this possibly happen if there was so much language tension at the time? I never really understood what these great injustices are that people talk about as I grew up since we certainly didn’t witness them in our family.

      Delete
    2. Cat, there must have been an underlying current prior to the Quiet Revolution and the PQ, with its overt racist policies, brought the Archie Bunker to the surface. It's not as if all was hunky-dory in Quebec and then PRESTO! The minorities were suddenly enemies on the turn of a dime. This was something seething long before the PQ came along.

      The fact the minorities were "running" Quebec was no accident. I have written time and time again the Roman Catholic church kept the (French speaking) population ignorant and pregnant for almost exactly 200 years, from the post-1759 loss of General Montcalm through the death of Maurice Duplessis in 1959, the despotic premier who milked the ignorance of the collectivity for all it was worth.

      Now the separatists are shaking in their boots over the unravelling of «la revanche des berceaux» because they're not procreating like jackrabbits anymore (or as the late Mordechai Richler wrote, like sows).

      Delete
    3. FROM ED
      Cat, That's my point. there was no racial tension until Rene Levesque started it. the young lad in the story I mentioned above
      was a beautiful happy child and young man until he was brainwashed by the separatists. He had a job, a new car and was proud of his life. The last I saw him he was bitter but speaking English to me again. He said, "Those fucking English left the province and took all the jobs with them. I lost my job and I lost my car now I'm on welfare and it's not enough." I pointed out to him that Rene had driven companies out with unworkable language laws. He listened and told me no one had ever mentioned that factor. Three weeks later he died in a car crash. I was asked to do the funeral but I broke down doing the eulogy. As a Christian I see death as a happy thing since paradise is the end result and we should feel happy for the deceased but with Sean I could only think that he died while living such an unhappy life. Destroyed by a racist bastard named Rene Levesque. Ed

      Delete
    4. @ The Cat

      I guess your parents are an illustration that love conquers all :)

      Delete
    5. Nice story ED..truly is and its a shame what happened with this young man. However again you are giving us your perspective of how things were. If you talk to many francophones your age they will often give a very different perspective..one in which the minority anglos ran the show. A world in which english was required in many workplaces..often exclusively english. A world in which the french were treated as second class citizens in their own province. Do you really think millions of Quebecers just suddnely jumped on the Levesque bandwagon because they were totally brainwashed..it was decades of feeling like an underclass that finally erupted when they had a leader who wanted to change things. Now in my opinion the pendelum has swung too far the other way but I certainly think there was a lot of unfairness to the francophone population before the 1970s.

      Delete
    6. I guess so, Roger Rabbit, because they celebrated their Golden Anniversary and are still going strong. Ed, I know, I was agreeing with your point (my question was rhetorical, not directed at you). I doubt that there was NO tension whatsoever, however it’s bothersome when some people who weren’t there peddle revisionist history that all francos were poor, oppressed, maltreated plantation workers and that all anglos were rich, oppressive, fat cat, CEOs subjugating them. The reality is that there were rich francos and poor anglos too and that the mythical fat English lady at Eaton’s was just that, a myth (ascertained by all of my elderly franco relatives, including aunts, uncles and grandparents who in fact were all there).

      Now as then, some of these problems were undoubtedly reported by people for whom the presence of any English at all was an intolerable affront, dishonestly pointing to old black and white photos of English signs on Ste. Catherine St. as being representative of what the whole of Montreal and of Quebec was like. Those people’s problems don’t date from the 1950s but from the 1750s, so too bad for them. They’re the ones who simplistically misrepresent the rebellions of 1837-38 as being a struggle for freedom rather than for the real reason, responsible government, and they neglect to mention that they were carried out by both anglophones AND francophones. They also conveniently neglect to ever mention that there was also an Upper Canada Rebellion that occurred at the same time and for the same reason as the one in Lower Canada.

      So sure, there were problems (if you consider needing to know English a problem in OUR province, it doesn’t belong to francophones alone), but what period of history didn’t have problems? (That’s another rhetorical question, by the way.) But instead of correcting any problems, francos decided to go overboard by vengefully trying to socially re-engineer a French-only Quebec that had ever existed before, treating anglophones as second-class citizens, and thus losing whatever moral high ground they may have had. Hence, the resulting decades of griping, bad PR and so-called ever-present “Quebec-bashing”…

      Then, just to make things even worse, the PQ has also carefully cultivated the notion among a minority of the population that now will never go away; namely that franco-Quebecers are so extremely different from, say, franco-Ontarians, that they form a separate, incompatible nation that is on a noble, glorious, heroic quest to seek its “freedom” from being “subdued”. And then they wonder why they’ve been unable to convince the majority to go along with this, even after so many decades of trying, producing the existing stalemate: they will never get what they want but they will never stop clamouring for it, either.

      Delete
    7. FROM ED
      Mr. sauga, The minorities never actually ran the province. They just went on building it while the French governed their way.
      The Archbishop of Quebec was French and 90% 0f the Roman catholic Church in Quebec was French. The small Anglo section had their own Bishop who like the Archbishop reported to the French Cardinal. like Cardinal Leger.
      You are right when you say there was an underlying current. The difference in lifestyles automatically created un ease. It never surfaced, until Rene L made it the thing to do. People politely didn't mention differences before that. Comments like "he can't help it, he's French" were the norm but never said aloud. Ed

      Delete
    8. In the early 1970s, our next-door neighbours happened to be Jewish and it never ever remotely crossed our minds that we should be anything other than good friends, which is why we used to celebrate a combined Hanukah/Christmas get-together (or as Jerry Seinfeld would later famously call it, “Festivus”). As a Montrealer, what is surprising for me is having recently learned that such an educated person as Yannick acknowledged having grown up in NB without ever actually having personally met any Jews at all (which is, of course, almost unimaginable for someone who grew up in Montreal, unless they grew up in the east end perhaps, I’m not sure about that).

      Anyway, then in 1987, in the hope of appeasing French nationalists, we made the mistake of allowing the renaming of Montreal’s historic Dorchester Blvd. to “boul. René-Lévesque” (who apart from being the first PQ leader was also a former CBC journalist). By doing so, meanwhile, we were spitting upon the grave of Guy Carleton, 1st Baron Dorchester, who had commanded the troops in the defense of Quebec City from the American invasion of 1775 and who was largely responsible for the preservation of the French culture in Quebec. Then we unsurprisingly found out, as did Neville Chamberlain, that appeasement would only ever result in never-ending additional demands. At least we had finally learned our lesson by the time there were calls to rename our city’s historic Park Ave. to “Ave. Robert-Bourassa”.

      Delete
    9. I'm afraid that the Jewish are too intelligent to move to New-Brunswick, its only inhabitants are people who were born there because there are no jobs.

      What few minorities there were would have went to English schools, I presume - including the Jewish. Going to school, I befriended an Arabic girl, but other than that and a handful of protestants and catholics, one or two Vietnamese and some Africans (from France's former colonies), we just didn't really have any exposure to minorities.

      There were a few more at the Université de Moncton, mostly from Africa and Haïti, but not nearly as many as in the English universities where there are more international students who know the language.

      Delete
    10. I mean, about 35-40% of my graduating year at high school were Leblancs - that gives you an idea of the local homogeneity.

      Delete
    11. "Then we unsurprisingly found out, as did Neville Chamberlain, that appeasement would only ever result in never-ending additional demands."

      I'm uncomfortable with this kind of attitude. It implies that the only morally acceptable thing to do is to refuse any compromise or concession - and I refuse to believe that.

      It also implies that the "appeasement" is a one-off hand-out by magnanimous superiors who intend never to hear about the subject again; also a dangerous attitude to have.

      Suppose that opponents of women or homosexual equality would express that granting the right to vote to the former or decriminalizing sodomy for the latter was an act of "appeasement" that did not work, as activists continued to demand more - how would you feel?

      It's completely different, you might tell me : whatever inequality the Francophones might have faced sixty years ago, the shoe is on the other foot now. Perhaps. But the whole mentality is distasteful to me.

      Consider that the Francophones who comment on French equivalents of No Dogs consider the "angryphones" as a militant minority that cannot be "appeased", and you will see the dangers in this kind of philosophy.

      Delete
  11. What is wrong with these STM employees? This whole society is really going down the tubes - beating up an elderly gentleman. Wow
    http://www.lapresse.ca/videos/201306/12/46-1-une-chauffeuse-dautobus-malmene-un-septuagenaire.php/45ac0d909c4a43aea99a559b2f7b10aa

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Comment pouvez-vous conclure qu'il s'agit d'un "gentleman" ?De plus il s'est peut-être adressé à l'agent en anglais.

      Delete
    2. I hope Keith B. does a rant about this one!

      In the meantime, here's mine.

      Simply put, I want Quebec out of Canada.
      Quebec is an embarrassment to Canada.
      Quebec is more backwards than Mississippi and Alabama.
      Quebec is broke.
      Quebec is run by country bumpkins.
      Quebec should be banished from Canada.
      Quebec should be banished from NAFTA.
      Upon its expulsion from Canada, French should be outlawed as an official language of Canada.

      Delete
    3. A video of police taking down a merchant for playing music too loud. Thank god people have videocameras and cellphones to record what happens. I'm sure it would have been much worse for him if there was no one around.

      http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2013/06/14/arrestation-musclee-une-plainte-pour-bruit-degenere

      Delete
    4. Didn't you notice Roger that our little troll thinks it was an anglophone because he made the statement that "he pays taxes"? Crazy people - even when one of their own is at fault for something (police included for over exuberance) it must be an anglo! Anything to take attention away from their outright bigotry and hate for anything but pur laine francophones. And the STM lady (?) that's beating up the older gentleman must be because he spoke to her in English so that's the reason for the assult. More like pre-war Germany everyday.

      Delete
    5. I find it isn't really worth it to have a discussion with the 5 or 6 trolls on this site. They are just here to create havoc, not to have a real debate.

      I am starting to get discouraged about our Quebec society. If you look on the journal de montreal site about this turban issue, you can see in the commentary of readers some of the vitriolic hate that is written, things like sikhs make me sick and then they have 17 agrees.

      I just don't know what to say anymore...

      Delete
    6. @Roger Rabbit

      All we can do is keep speaking out against it and bring awareness to it. To point at it, keep the focus on it and keep repeating that it is wrong and it is unacceptable, eventually it gets through...at least we can hope that it gets through.

      When the entire world looks at you, points their finger and tells you that what you are saying and doing...just ain't cool, they lose respect for you,... I think it sinks in..and if it doesn't then... you might as well just fall off the face of the earth....no hope.

      Delete
    7. Cutie, that bus incident dates back to 2010. When the driver told the man to take the next bus (both francophones, incidentally), he spit at her and she blew up, breaking his hip. Both were charged with assault and both found guilty; the driver received a discharge (and kept her job) and the man received probation. He’s now launching a new case against her and the STM. The full story is here: http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/justice-et-affaires-criminelles/201306/13/01-4660779-poursuite-septuagenaire-malmene-par-une-chauffeuse-dautobus.php

      Delete
    8. @ AnecTOTE

      You are right about bringing awareness and speaking out about things that we feel are unacceptable in society.

      The thing that discourages me is the way the francophone media, mainly the Journal de Montreal, covers these things. They make it into something where it is the canadian federation against the quebec federation. Of course, they do not make note of the worldwide condemnation, in the world press.

      Get ready for more of this BS in the fall when the PQ will start to talk about "Quebec values"

      Forget about health, education, the economy, the fact that we have high taxes, high debt, and take in 20 billion dollars in equalization.

      No, let's talk about "Quebec values" (namely no accomodations of language, 'other' religions, and minorities) and get alot of people riled up. Then go to an election.

      Delete
    9. Yeah - let's forget that she's raising school taxes 20-30% plus trying to tax the people for the care of the elderly while she wastes billions on her "independence" strategy. Make us all broke before she leaves - that's her motto with her 6M safely tucked away in the bank. Bitch.

      Delete
    10. Thanks RS - didn't check the date - I hope he sues the shit out of them and wins. He wasn't right to spit at her but then again she should have been better trained than to jump on him and break his hip which has probably crippled him for life but she wiped the spit off and went on her way. Crazy people - no control whatsoever.

      Delete
    11. "When the entire world looks at you..."

      Et réalise que nous ne représentons que 6.5 millions de francophones se débattant pour leur survie dans un océan de 350.000.000 d'anglophones et ceci sans compter les traîtres et les vendus à l'intérieur même de notre nation.

      Delete
    12. You deserve to be pushed into obscurity because you can't live with anyone else. What is the matter with you? Maybe you would find people more receptive to your desire to keep your language and culture if you treated other people with respect. That's what you don't get - you spit on all of us and we're supposed to "understand" - bah - sick of your whining. Traitors to your cause are the ones that realize you get more bees with honey than vinegar fool

      Delete
    13. "...because you can't live with anyone else"

      Faux...Seulement les anglos et leurs amis.

      Delete
    14. Lire angryphones et non anglophones car j'en connais plusieurs et de très sympathiques.

      Delete
    15. FROM ED
      Anectote,
      Any one who enjoys arguing with trolls is selfishly using up REPLY spots that others might like to get into that exactly wht they want y7ou to do. how long does it take and how many have to tell you before you get it.? Ed.

      Delete
  12. Good one Mr. Sauga. 100% correct. Quebec can rot in hell after partition...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yep - Partition is the answer to our problems - may cause some problems but a hell of a lot less than if they try to take us all down their road to ruination. We definitely need a "Partition Party" that has only one purpose - to let those areas out of Canada that want to leave. Nothing else is more important at this point in time but to get rid of those areas that are causing us so much economic and social turmoil. They don't want to be part of our unit - fine go your own way but those that wish to stay part of Canada have a say in our own future and that is without you. You have done enough damage to this province and the country. A new bilingual province within Canada with areas that vote to remain. Out with the rest of you with your share of the debt, your bigotry and hate.

      Delete
  13. Des élections à date fixe au Québec

    http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/politique-quebecoise/201306/14/01-4661385-des-elections-a-date-fixe-au-quebec.php

    Enfin...

    ReplyDelete
  14. And their apology is as two-faced as their agenda - apologizing to the anglophone community as if they give one sweet shit about our feelings. What a bunch of racist bigots - I'm glad the world is becoming more aware just what kind of government(s) we have to vote for in this province. Bad or worse; great choice.

    ReplyDelete
  15. FROM ED
    Thanks
    Mr. Sauga,
    Glad to know you're still with us. If we didn't get our daily hate mail from you and anonymous we would be worried about you.
    Thanks for your wishes about our beautiful homes. Wish you were here. Ed

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ed: You wrote "Thanks for your wishes about our beautiful homes." Care to explain what that means, because looking up and down the threads, I couldn't find anything written about your homes.

      Do recall I was a preteen when the PQ was founded, and in my adolescence when the PQ was elected, just when I was in CEGEP. I was mapping out my future back in those days, trying to decide what subjects and what my major should be in university to poise myself for the future, and all I was experiencing was ever-increasingly rabid racism and bitter water being consumed by Quebec.

      In my high school years I read about the overt racism of the Nazis against Jews and their other enemies, like the Gypsies, Slavic people and others. I went from reading, and hearing about it from my parents, and especially others who were placed in the concentration camps eye-witnessing these atrocities, living the horrors and losing all family members in many cases.

      Move forward to 1974 and now I was starting to see the results of hatred and racism, with children being denied the right to English school because the rabid separatist examiners failing these little children by making one mistake on their tests, and often not because the didn't understand English. Bill 22 back then made me make up my mind then and there my destiny was to finish my cheap Quebec education for which my parents paid lots 'n' lotsa taxes, then leave. I did it! I DID IT! I DECLARE WITH THE GREATEST OF GLEE HOW GLAD I AM THAT I DID IT I'd shout it today from the rooftops I'm glad I did it.

      The only annoyance, a colossal one at that, is I still have to pay for the loser society called Quebec. On that 60 Minute segment back in 1998, Commandant Louise Beaudoin said to Morley Safer that "[The language police are] civil servants. Civil servants! A bunch of civil servants."

      My response, dear Ed? Quebec is a state of losers. Losers. A bunch of losers.

      First, it was pastagate making its way across the global media. Just a few months later, now you have soccergate. So after putting its collective foot in mouth to help shove the pasta down Quebec's collective throat, now they have to shove their foot down further to get the soccer ball down, and that's harder to swallow than pasta.

      There is an old cliché about being a quiet moron, but everytime Quebec does somthing, they have to open their mouths and prove it. Europe had the Bubonic Plage back in the Second Millennium. Quebec is going to have the Foot-in-Mouth Plague in the Third Millennium?

      Ed, take your thumb and forefinger, the former positioned horizontally, the later vertically and put them to your forehead. Look in the mirror. After your anti-Semitic crack of last month, and what you wrote above, take a good look at the man in the mirror. He's giving you a loud, clear message. If you still don't get it, then place Crazy Glue on the aforementioned digits and in the aforementioned position place your digits on your forehead!

      I was born AFTER the underlying current came to the surface, as you say, through R.L. and his hateful band of vindictive small minds, and now they're fully back just to cause us trouble at the expense of those of us not having to put thumb and forefinger to forehead. I'm sick to my stomach and fed up with the lunacy, and I want you all out of my country...unless you really get the hell out there and protest for all your worth. ALL OF YOU!



      Delete
    2. FROM ED
      Sauga, I WANT YOU ALL OUT OF MY COUNTRY.
      Sauga, who the hell do you think you are. You show your true colours . You are not attacking the PQ. You hate all of us.
      It sounds to me like a fit of jealousy because you couldn't make it in the education system that the rest of us thrive on. So you hate us for our success. You're obviously sorry you left this beautiful place and you're taking your anger out on us.
      I ignore your crack about anti-sematism but if it is somewhere it's being fed by people like you. Ed

      Delete
  16. Editor: "And by the way, since the French media was also invested in the anti-turban position, look for a united effort to sweep this humiliating affair under the 'carpette.'"

    Editor, remember Sophie Durocher's column in JdeM around the time of David's Tea debacle? She ran an argument along the lines of: "Big multinational chains are one thing, but for smaller home businesses the descriptor should be required". That's a few months after the media joined in the hounding the big 5 for the big 5's court challenge of the descriptor requirement. All of a sudden, the big 5 were "one thing", though a few moths earlier they were the thing, the prime target of hounding.

    And now we have another case of sweeping the mess under the rug after being spanked by a stronger institution.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Everything is done with a view to them declaring "independence" from Canadian laws and standard procedures. It will get worse as she tries to rally the support for a majority government and she will be telling Canada to stuff it over every little thing she can in the next little while. We have to hope that the francophone majority, that do not believe in independence, see through her little charade and find all this shit disturbing too embarrassing and divisive on the world stage to fall into the trap she is setting. This is her last stand and she damn well knows it. It's majority and then referendum if she can swing it and that's her end game. She doesn't care about anything else except becoming Queen Pauline and the good of the people be damned. Shameful political manipulation to get her way but that's the basis of the whole separatist movement. Fool the people all the time not just some of the time.

      Delete
    2. @Cutie

      I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point...really. The sh*t that just went down put her back substantially. She and her lot look weak and pathetic. When things like this happen, rather than pulling off a triumph, you pull off a dreadful defeat and and embarassing one to boot, people hardly get behind you. I say she pretty much cooked her goose with this one. It won't be long she and her minions are outa here.

      Turbans anyone??????? LOLOLOLOL

      Delete
    3. Let's hope so AnecTOTE - It's embarrassing to all of us not just the Michel's. Thank God it is a minority government and will hopefully be wiped out of existence next election.

      Delete
    4. @Cutie

      It doesn't embarass me in the least, this is THEIR debacle and their undoing. Sometimes it suits me just fine that they draw a line in the sand where they stand on one side, and stick us in the other...this way their stupidity doesn't reflect on those of us on the other side. LOLOLOL

      Delete
    5. @ Cutie

      Moreover, I cannot ever ...and I mean...EVER recall when I have said: I am proud of Quebec. There isn't one time in my mind when I can recall it did something, stood for something, that was worldly admirable and ground breaking. Oh and that goes for Canada too...lately...mmm...NADA...they're keeping stride with Quebec I gotta say.

      MMM...yeah...just thought about it again...and.....NOPE can say that I can recall even one time regarding QC...sad really.

      Delete
    6. I've never said it in the last 40 years or so that's for sure. The difference is now I'm embarrassed to say I live in Quebec - before that I didn't give it much thought to be honest. We sure don't have anything to be proud of recently. With the senate scandal we don't have much to brag about with our feds right now either but I'm still Canadian and trust most people are decent and law abiding citizens. We will always have these scandals in any society because of money and power - changes people because we are people. Silver tongued devils are usually the ones elected rather than the ones that work behind the scenes.

      Delete
    7. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
  17. FROM ED
    Anectote, You can't ever remember anything about Quebec to be proud of. How about the leading University in Canada for many years. It was the work of software engineers at McGill that made interac possible all over the world. I remember when my friend Professor Nazim Madhavji spent a month in each of the european countries so we can use our bank cards anywhere in the world. The work of Mcgill's medical research has helped millions. The Montreal Children's Hospital has the Poison Control Center that is often used by ROC and U.S. Brain surgery was developed here at the Neurological Institute. Dr. William Penfield is a Quebecer to be proud of. During both wars English of Quebec sent almost as many regiments as the rest of Canada along with the French Van Doos. My city Verdun put more men in Uniform per capita than any other city in Canada. The head offices of nearly every great Canadian Corporation set up here in Quebec because they saw it's advantages with the great harbour for shipping and railroad connections. The fact that they are gone reflects on the PQ not Quebec.
    The beauty of this Province is comparable to anywhere in the world. the Laurentian Mountains are great vacation spots. No poisonous creatures or cougars to worry about. Safe scenic beauty. I could go on for hours but my time is limited. Ed

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mr. Brown,

      The fact that they are gone reflects on the PQ not Quebec.

      But, but, but, you are wrong. According to M. Patrice it is because the shift of North American economy inland, as the result of the St. Lawrence Seaway. The PQ and separatist movement have nothing to do with Quebec (particularly including Montreal) economic decline.

      Delete
    2. McGill is still one of Canada's best universities, even if it is declining with regards to the University of Toronto. I believe many of their current problems are linked to poor funding in Quebec, presumably due to the low tuition. Amongst graduate students, McGill is infamous for its poor funding.

      I applied three times to McGill for my B.Sc., M.Sc. and Ph.D. degrees, and was accepted three times; three times I had to refuse because they would not offer me funding or scholarships while all or most other universities did.

      This implies that they must now only accept students who a) can't get accepted or funded elsewhere, b) are on external funding so that they don't need McGill's, or c) are independently wealthy and a difference of a debt of tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars does not deter them.

      In either case, they can't be competitive in accepting the best students and their research standing has to suffer from it.

      During the student uprisings last year, the red squares made their position clear though: research is a luxury, not a necessity. Therefore McGill and other Quebec universities are doomed to decline in standing.

      Delete
    3. FROM ED
      There are strange things done neath the Quebec sun and the tales make your blood run cold. (Robert Service and Ed)
      I worked with an intelligent man one time whose favourite expression was, " Give a frenchman a job and he'll make it harder every time."
      The PQ damage has reached evrey corner of this province, even McGill. I have been without telephone for two weeks since I transferred my sercvice from ACN back to bell where it had been for a long time before my grandson took us to ACN which is a bogus company. Bell promised installation three times and each day no one showed up. My phone calls are transferred to between five and nine different departments. I've sat on my grandson's cell for an hour until the battery went dead. Brll used to be on of th emost efficient companies in Canada but the francophone element in every thing has to confuse and distort.
      So many times in a situation I've thought , "Too bad he's French they can't think outside the box. An Anglo here would say, sure why not?" Ed

      Delete
    4. FROM ED
      Troy, I don't read Patrice. I skip past the nonsense of him, SR / Student / Une Gars and Complcated. I accept Mr.Sauga for what he is, a bitter old man. It's annoying when good people answer the trolls. We had worthwhile dicussion until they came along.several times I've checked back and found a subject on which I had pertinent information but couldn't get in because all the reply spots were used, not by the trolls so much as our own answering them. If your stomach growls do you answer it? Why not? It makes as much sense. Ed

      Delete
    5. Troy,

      "But, but, but, you are wrong. According to M. Patrice it is because..."

      You are almost as stubborned as I am. I admire that.

      Delete
    6. M. Patrice,

      I gave you multiple examples and arguments to support my point, none of which you answered with clarity. You gave me one reference and based your whole defense on that reference.

      Delete
    7. I honestly don't remember multiple examples. I remember something about why is New York (and other cities on the coast) did not decline in favor of the inland, or something like that. But I don't remember precicely.

      The point have brought foward over and over is : Toronto outgrew Montreal before the creation of the PQ.

      Delete
    8. And Toronto's growth rate became absolutely exponential after the PQ was elected and drove reams of businesses out of Quebec.

      Delete
  18. Ed,

    You forgot about black bears, which are found throughout Quebec and are potentially dangerous. There are coyotes and wolves here too. There may also be eastern cougars still in existence, though their numbers would be very small.

    I have encountered a few black bears while hiking in the backwoods of the Laurentians and the Outaouais and they sure as hell made me nervous.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    2. Black bears and wolves avoid humans. The greatest potential killer by far in Québec wilderness is hypothermia.

      Delete
    3. Black bears, wolves and coyotes avoid humans for the most part but attacks, though rare, do occur.

      http://www.mssltd.com/nwtbiathlon/CBC.htm

      http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/10/28/ns-coyote-attack-died.html

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attacks_on_humans

      However, I do agree that hypothermia is a greater danger for those who venture outdoors unprepared.

      Delete
  19. Burlington welcomes Québécois visitors with bilingual parking meter stickers

    http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20130614/NEWS02/306140035/Burlington-welcomes-Quebecois-visitors-with-bilingual-parking-meter-stickers?nclick_check=1

    Merci aux Américains

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dommage que tu t'obstines à refuser à leur rendre la pareille - un employé de la STM à encore le droit de chier sur un client non francophone?

      Delete
    2. Avec le temps,les employés qui travaillent avec le public,apprennent à faire la différence entre un anglophone local,un touriste et un angryphone.C'est une question d'attitude et de circonstances,presque du cas par cas.

      Delete
    3. Pas question de leur offrir le service bilingue comme les sympathiques types de Burlington, en tout cas...

      Delete
    4. Yannick,

      It is a bit of "what is yours is mine, what is mine is mine" behavior typically shown by children, is it not?

      Delete
    5. Can you believe that there actually exists an ignoramus who not only lives and breathes among us but who actually detects, supports and broadcasts such one-way accommodations? The mind boggles.

      Such a disgraceful loser.

      No country for you!

      Delete
    6. Burlington is making it easier for Quebecers to shop in the U.S., thus boosting the profits of the American stores and helping the American economy at the expense of Quebec businesses and the Quebec economy, and somehow you, as a dyed-in-the wool seppie, think this is a good thing?
      It's sort of like being the captive of cannibals and being happy that they let you eat as much as you want: it only seems good in the short run. It doesn't surprise me that the word "economics" is unknown in the "milieu culturel", but common sense apparently is, too.

      Delete
    7. "It is a bit of "what is yours is mine, what is mine is mine" behavior typically shown by children, is it not?"

      S.R. has an answer to this. The asymmetry is justified because "nous ne représentons que 6.5 millions de francophones se débattant pour leur survie dans un océan de 350.000.000 d'anglophones et ceci sans compter les traîtres et les vendus à l'intérieur même de notre nation."

      But here's the problem: if the proportions are so one-sided, this deprecates the French language in the eyes of allophones. What is the motivation for immigrants living in Montreal to even learn French?

      S.R has an answer to this too: we are 80% majority.

      These two viewpoints used as if they were stand-alone, unrelated to each other, and not in slight contradiction with each other, which makes any rational accommodations impossible with people like SR. Because if you ask to relax the "protective" laws, the defensive stance, and hostility-causing insecurity, the minority argument is invoked to justify hostility, defensiveness, and besieged mentality. But if you use the same minority argument to support your move towards the English language, the argument of majority and common language is quickly invoked, as if the argument of being under siege made earlier did not even exist. One argument is quickly forgotten in favor of the other, as if there was no overlap, as if two parallel universes were being compared.

      But the two viewpoints are not stand-alone, they are closely linked. French is both a majority language, but also a minority language. These two states are used to justify the status quo, but they can be as easily used to oppose the status quo. Try this: French is a majority language in Quebec, so abolish the language law. French is a minority language, so accept that many people will not give it as much certainty in the lives as some others insist on.

      Delete
    8. Which is why it's necessary and fair for allophones to attend the French public school system in Quebec.

      Delete
    9. FROM ED
      The Commission of Inquiry on the Situation of the French Language and Linguistic Rights in Quebec was established under the Union Nationale government of Jean-Jacques Bertrand on December 9, 1968. In the early seventies a group of French Catholic parents in Laval wanted immigrant children to attend French schools. In Laval, the italians do not consider them selves immigrants and at that time they all used English for everything. Bourrassa settled it by saying French speaking kids go to French schools. Kids who speak English first go to English schools. Ed.

      Delete
    10. S.R,

      "Avec le temps,les employés qui travaillent avec le public,apprennent à faire la différence entre un anglophone local,un touriste et un angryphone."

      Perhaps the Quebec government can make it easier to detect resident Anglophones by forcing them to wear a yellow 'A' for Anglo on their clothing. I'm sure you would find that quite acceptable.

      Delete
  20. FROM ED
    Durham, As a boy from 8 yrs. od to 10 I was sent to live with my grandmother at Weir just east of Arundel while my Father was enlarging our home in Verdun.. My grandmother was a bush woman herself and lived fourteen years without water or electricity. I went home to her about once a week to get a good feed. The rest of the time I slept under a great fir tree whose lower branches came down to the ground.
    During the summer months I lived in the bush beside Pike lake where the bears came at night to drink.
    The only time I was hurt by a bear was accidental. the bears came in a group to drink and swim at the lake and I must have been sleeping with my rear sticking out from under the tree. His claw took a piece of flesh from my butt. The bear never new it but I did. I used to pick berries in the greatest strawberry, rasberry and blueberry patch you've ever seen. The bears were often there but my grandmother taught me to ignore them and they ignored me. One night a bear came to our cottage window which had only a chese cloth for mosquitoes. When he growled at us my grandmother charged at the window and growled louder. The bear ran off. There was a wolf used to come and watch me but when I tried to approach she took off.
    I swear she was more worried about me than my grandmother. I never felt fear. I hated the winter because each boy has to bring a log for the pot bellied stove which heated the Church / school. My grandmother always picked out the skinniest log for me. The headmaster said, "Brown, if yyou don't bring a proper log you'll be strapped. My Irish grandmother said, " Sure and divil on him. He's not the one that cut's the wood, it's me." I was thinking ."Wait a minute you don't do it. You make me do it.." but having more fear of her than the bear I kept silent. I solved the problem by stealing another boy's log each morning while they were playing in the snow..
    When the headmaster appeared with the bell I grabbed a different boy'ss log each morning. No one noticed.
    Since my grandmother jhas passed on there is nothing moreb to fear in the laurentians.Ed

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for more great stories Ed. I used to spend quite a bit of time hiking, fishing and camping in the wilderness area east of Arundel myself. I have great memories of the time I spent there. I love the flora, fauna and landscape of Quebec but I'm not so fond of the attitudes of some of the people....

      Delete
  21. We are actually very lucky to have such an extreme ignoramus partaking on here, one who is not only quite likely mentally unwell but who is also more than willing to put his absurd, discriminatory remarks onto the public record, a keyboard warrior who actually feels so unhindered as to keep making a public display of his radical, bitter, mixed-up, narrow-minded, unacceptable, blatantly hateful and anglophobic views for the whole world to see, and thus finally sealing the last nail shut on his blathering, ethnocentric, franco-supremacist dream world.

    Muchísimas gracias, muchacho!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "...a keyboard warrior"

      Faux!Je suis également sur le terrain à plusieurs des manifestations concernant la protection de la langue française.

      Pouvez-vous en dire autant "senor sombrero" alias Pure-laine? (notez le trait d'union)

      Delete
  22. On the subject of trolls:

    "Diary Of A 5,000-Hours-Per-Year Internet Troll"

    http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/15/diary-of-a-5000-hours-per-year-internet-troll/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "2. I would then keep him tired and on the defensive. I did this by responding quickly and concisely. When I did post commentary I would keep it short and only address one particular point. I always found it funny when another poster would get so worked up over something and take the time to write a long drawn out post responding to every single point in the previous post. I would just choose one point to refute or agree with. This had the effect negating all the work the previous post made. I conserved my energy with small posts that took me ten minutes to craft they exhausted themselves with long ones that took an hour. The longer they take to respond, the more rest I have and the more agitation they feel to get a response out.

      3. I usually asked questions in my responses. This also put him on the defensive because he felt compelled to respond to a direct question. Thus he never set the tone because he was always responding to the tone I set. Questions (for some reason) also had the effect of pissing him off. I naturally asked questions to begin with not thinking this was strategy but once I realized he didn’t like it I did it more."


      Hmm... sounds familiar?

      Delete
    2. LD

      Lol, a handbook for trolls. The Montreal Gazette's comments section along with The Globe and Mail's and National Post's is full of PQ and Option Nationale agents provocateurs. I think it was part of their strategy to use free Internet resources to spread their bullshit agenda and protect the Queen Bee Marois. All it really does is inflame ROC rednecks that had little love for Quebec in the first place.

      Delete
    3. FROM ED
      Why not? We're doing the same thing here, allowing trolls. Ed

      Delete
    4. Ok, I've seen the light. To paraphrase Alan Fotheringham, I will no longer be lessening the burden of Dudents ignorance. He'll have to figure it out for himself.

      Delete
    5. FROM ED
      Anyone who has crunched the link that ANONYMOUS COWARD posted at 9:59 and still continues to communicate with the trolls is being selfish in that the EDITOR asked us not to. I recall way back the Editor asked us to express a thought and stay away from the one liners. The Trolls do exactly that and suck in others doing the same. Ed

      Delete
  23. Please give Hugo a hand with his campaign if you can: Aid the Civil Rights Rights Movement in Quebec - Stop Separatists from Ruining Canada

    ReplyDelete
  24. FROM ED
    you know Pure Lain, he probably thinks you're applauding. He will see your words as an acclamation. Ed

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Did you notice that he doesn't deny being mentally unwell? LOL!
      It is obvious, after all. :)

      Delete
  25. The NO DOGS OR ANGLOPHONES trolls possess true talent; they operate exactly how the TechCrunch "diarist" records his procedure, and many commenters get swept up completely. One must love the "your positions are racist and indefensible" responses he has garnered this weekend; it's a great glee to him because he actually doesn't hold the views he espouses; he is just playing for laughs. Seeing others so worked up into a froth over his faux positions provides a high. I actually enjoy skimming the comments to see the success of the site's trolls in manipulating others - others who belittle the trolls' "lack of intelligence" without perceiving that they are being toyed with, without realizing they are constantly paying off the trolls' efforts, and needs. It is fascinating btw that commenter Cutie003routinely praises troll Michel Patrice for being "reasonable and civil" while bemoaning "S.R.", without realizing that Michel Patrice despises her.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Of course the opposite extreme is dismissing anyone who might disagree with you as a troll. That is not so.

      Delete
    2. How sad that you read my comments that way. I tried to be reasonable with what I perceived to be a reasonable person that at least has some courtesy and manners when on this site. I don't know how else in the world we would ever resolve problems without weapons if we didn't make some effort to communicate with our fellow human beings. He has now made it clear that there is no middle ground on which to base a discussion and I will now chose to ignore him as I generally do SR, YL and stupid student. I would not have felt I did my best if I had not at least tried to get him to see how his decisions could well change his standard of living to a point that would be unacceptable if he tries to leave Canada with the province fully intact. That's all I could do. And if he despises me for that, then he really has a huge problem with reason in general. That's what I keep trying to say - there is going to be big trouble for all of us if and when this country breaks up and everyone better be ready for it. This will not be civil and peaceful because we are human and all of us feel what we are standing up for is our right and is what's best for us.

      Delete
    3. FROM ED
      yannick, there is that possibility but there's no excuse for answering the ones we know. If a new troll comes along it won't take more than a few posts to spot him. However, whether he is an troll or not if he is making sense let him stay. Ed

      Delete
    4. FROM ED
      On my post above ; I meant communicate with him until he is defined as a troll. We do not have to excommunicate anybody
      unfairly. Ed

      Delete
    5. That's true Ed. So long as someone is willing to play ball and converse in a human manner, we should respect them, but we owe nothing to those who come here only to drop one-liners.

      Delete
    6. That is how I looked at conversing with Michel but there is no longer any point. Unfortunate.

      Delete
  26. And now the construction workers are on strike. What a province - the last time they will ever see a boon in the building industry here because it all started before Bill 14, they earn an average $33.00/hr, but earn double time for overtime. The unions and corruption run this province and it ain't getting any better soon. What other union in Canada gets automatic double time for overtime? We used to get time and a half. Oh well, here we go again. And work on a Saturday? Oh no, not us - it's never us.

    ReplyDelete
  27. This thingy with the turban was or is a religious issue. We were so busy doing our favourite sport “QUEBEC BASHING” that we took our eyes off the ball. The Sikh claim that wearing this thing on there head is a religious requirement. YES it is but so are these gadgets.

    “At the core of the Sikh dress code lie the five Ks. Men are required to wear their hair long and never cut it (kesh)
    as well as have the other four Ks ON THEIR PERSON AT ALL TIMES– the steel bracelet (kara), the small sword(kirpan), the wooden comb (kangha) and the long underpants (kach). Men usually cover their hair with a turban made from a long thin strip of material wound around their head At home in private, men replace their formal turban with a smaller one called a keski.”

    The Federal court(mounted police, turban) and now the Quebec government have handled the situation incompetently and on the world stage so has FIFA by not settling the issue. Appeasement will only result in never ending additional demands.
    We have been had by all those religious groups.

    Tolerant or Intolerant, funny word: People ask to come into my house(country), I let them in for compassionate reasons, then they start rearranging my furniture(Sharia law, small swords in schools….). What to do? ask them to leave? Who is tolerant or intolerant. You can come to your own conclusions. Do your religion in your home and not in my face(in public).

    Here is an interesting video. A Moslem woman, in full regalia, being given a speeding ticket by a policeman.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6I8mfc_tCk

    @editor "But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
    Do agree with the first sentence but “neither picks my pocket” where does all the money go from the sale of all those religious buildings(churches, convents, synagogue etc..). Do churches, temples etc…pay property taxes on existing buildings, do parishioners get a tax deductible receipt. These religious instructions get a free ride. Would make an interesting article how WE the people get ripped off.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "The Federal court(mounted police, turban) and now the Quebec government have handled the situation incompetently and on the world stage so has FIFA by not settling the issue. Appeasement will only result in never ending additional demands."

      Yes, some kids now have won the right to wear a hat while kicking a ball around. I agree with you that it is troubling and I shudder to think of what might be next - will we have to accept that they talk to their kids in Arabic and take breaks during the day to pray?

      Why-o-why isn't everyone exactly the same as me, everything would be so much simpler.

      Delete
    2. "I let them in for compassionate reasons"

      No, you 'let them in' because you need them. Actually, you don't let them in, you invite them in, because you need them. In case you don't know, Can/Que have an active advertising immigration campaign. And once 'they' are in, 'they' became your equal as citizens, obeying the same laws, paying the same taxes... and one more thing, on compassionate reasons you accept only refugees not bona fide immigrants.

      Delete
    3. "No, you 'let them in' because you need them."

      Exactly. But some prefer to believe this "compassionate reasons" nonsense to feel better about themselves.

      History went something like this: Western powers colonized half the world, destroyed local economies, destroyed lives, destroyed life prospects pushing local people out of their lands, then took in a bulk of these migrants when it became obvious that Western economies wanted cheap labor and then needed any labor as the western working classes were becoming more and more politically powerful ("arrogant", "entitled", or "rebellious" if you prefer).

      This scam has been going on for a long time. It's still going on today.

      Picking on these migrants for having the gull to retain their own values and their customs, after being displaced and absorbed into the lowest rungs of foreign economies, is one blow too many. So I don't blame these people for putting up a fight. All the power to them.

      Delete
  28. @P. Darwinopterus Your point duly noted but I still maintain my point of “compassion”. Governments do tell “half” truths for their own good.
    http://www.immigrationwatchcanada.org/

    @Yannick I do not care what a child wears but don’t use the religious card .Let’s not go half way with this thingy on your head go all the way, dress the way your religion calls for. Let’s not be hypocrites. Yes Saudi Arabia, formula 1, cars come to a screeching halt, all down on hands and knees praying .That would be interesting. No! I don’t want everyone to be like me, I want them to be more knowledgeable , so that they can create a better life for all of us. What turns me off is hypocrisy. If you address me in a language that I don’t understand my tuff luck. By the way, Arab parents on a soccer pitch, do speak to their children in Arabic(here in Canada too).

    ReplyDelete
  29. ROM ED
    Yannick, A last word on thr trolls (at leas from me) thing. I think having learned the above we should all make an efort to avoid communicating with them and if someone does it's up to all of us to tell them we don't appreciate it. Ed

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  30. Just heard that Mayor Applebaum has been arrested by the "corruption" authorities in quebec. Is there any end to the corruption in this province?

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  31. Oh brother..what next. Is there any politician who doesnt have his hands dirty?? Montreal is a cesspool..its the way things are done here..it doesnt seem to matter what background the politician is..they all play the same games in the end.

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    1. Waiting to see if my city gets nailed and when - It seems to be a way of life in this province rather than the exception. I don't even know what to say about it any more. They all seem to be tarred with the same brush and it's endemic in our whole society.

      Delete
    2. Encore un "liberals" arrêté par les autorités...

      Héhé! ... Le grand ménage va bon train :)

      Delete
  32. I think White African brings up a very valid point. There should be a limit to how "accomodating" we are too all these new immigrants. Once again you and many other people have drank the politically correct kool-aid. The Turban issue and soccer is a minor issue for me. But when you start having the RCMP accepting Turbans, or people bringing daggers to school, or the word Christmas being banned, people wanting to remove our christian heritage out of the legislature and out of schools, Muslim women covering their face completely making it next to impossible to identify someone and on and on and on. At some point we will all wake up and be in a much different country. And at some point when there is a critical mass of Muslims or other immigrants with totally different values than traditional Canadians then we will have a big problem. If you dont stand for anything and believe in nothing then I guess its not a big deal. There are all sorts of problems in Europe right now because of significant Muslim populations with values very different than most native Europeans. Its something that has built up over decades. And for decades people were told..dont worry..they will assimilate into our culture and we need to be tolerant and so on. Well the reality is quite different..

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    1. ChiefRunningBear

      Yeah, seriously.

      Delete
    2. I don't see why we can't deal with these issues one by one, like reasonable human beings, rather than wanting to assume what could happen if...
      Seems like these issues are easy to settle with a bit of common sense:

      Kids playing soccer with a turban?
      Doesn't affect anyone else, next

      RCMP agents wearing turbans?
      Who cares. next

      Kids bringing weapons to school?
      No, this is unacceptable, and I'm sure most people would agree.

      Banning religion from schools?
      I personally think ALL religions should be banned from schools, aside from learning the history behind them.

      Banning the word "Christmas"?
      There's no way this will ever happen anyways.

      Muslim women covering their faces completely?
      Do what you want on your own time, be oppressed if you want (you actually have the choice in this country), but when an official requires you to identify yourself, you have no choice but to comply.


      Now that I've said that, I'll also go for the complete opposite of my statement, and say that I think Islam needs to be entirely banned from this country, and we need to start refusing entry to anyone who supports the Islamic religion.

      Delete
    3. Kids playing soccer with a turban?
      Doesn't affect anyone else, next

      Agree..this is a non-issue.

      RCMP agents wearing turbans?
      Who cares. next

      The RCMP and their uniform is one of the main symbols we have here in Canada. Its part of our heritage and I think its pathetic that we allow the traditional uniform to be discarded in the name of political correctness. My point of view is that there are thousands of other jobs that Sikhs can choose to do in this country..if they want to be part of the RCMP then they should respect our Canadian traditions in this regard otherwise get another job.


      Kids bringing weapons to school?
      No, this is unacceptable, and I'm sure most people would agree.

      Agree..


      Banning religion from schools?
      I personally think ALL religions should be banned from schools, aside from learning the history behind them.

      Banning the word "Christmas"?
      There's no way this will ever happen anyways.

      Its already happened. The Christmas train that CP runs is now called the Holiday train. There are stories all over of the word christmas being replaced with holiday because certain other religious groups complained. Too bad would be my response to these groups..this is a country built by christians and on christian values. If you dont like it then please leave.


      Muslim women covering their faces completely?
      Do what you want on your own time, be oppressed if you want (you actually have the choice in this country), but when an official requires you to identify yourself, you have no choice but to comply.

      Agree..

      Delete
    4. complicated says: There should be a limit to how "accomodating" we are too all these new immigrants

      No, you cannot expect people to change their customs, heritage and culture. you don't like it? stop accepting immigrants from those countries, don't adopt them and then expect to shed their values. it's that simple. As long as everyone living here follows the formal law system and pays their taxes, where is the problem?

      Delete
    5. I agree..we should be a lot more selective of the immigrants we accept into this country. We should be promoting immigrants who share core Canadian values. But that would be labelled racist..its just not progressive to say things like that even if its true.
      There are a lot of Europeans who are strugguling right now..I would put more effort into attracting more European immigrants. I see some efforts have already been made to bring in more people from Ireland.

      Delete
    6. "The RCMP and their uniform is one of the main symbols we have here in Canada"

      These uniforms are also pretty ridiculous, making the mounties look like clowns.

      Adding a turban to this funny attire does not make a difference. if anything, it completes the clownish look.

      Delete
    7. "stop accepting immigrants from those countries,"

      Their governments won't. For the past 50 years or so, western governments faced a serious issue of undisciplined domestic workforce. Cheap immigrant labor and globalization are used to bring the discipline back and to roll back any gains the working classes in the west have slowly and gradually won in the past century.

      The working class in the west is a victim of the roll back, and but also ignorant enough not to see the double game: the elites using immigrants to wage class warfare on the domestic workforce, and using the same immigrants to distract the local population by stirring up racial and ethnic tensions.

      I'll give you one example. In the 1980s Thatcher proceeded with her war on the working class. She opened the UK borders to immigration from UK possessions (Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Africa, the Caribbean). The 1980s is when the UK landscape got "colorful", as non-white minorities began to pour in. In the middle of this all, Thatcher would go public with inciting remarks about the "British culture" being under threat. She would strip up tensions between the unemployed British masses and the newly arrived by talking about "British values".

      This tactic has been used consistently, and it works as you can see from the comments here.

      Delete
    8. complicated,

      The RCMP and their uniform is one of the main symbols we have here in Canada. Its part of our heritage and I think its pathetic that we allow the traditional uniform to be discarded in the name of political correctness. My point of view is that there are thousands of other jobs that Sikhs can choose to do in this country..if they want to be part of the RCMP then they should respect our Canadian traditions in this regard otherwise get another job.

      So the RCMP allowing turban as part of their uniform is pathetic, eh?

      What about the U.S. Army? British Army? London Metropolitan Police? Do those organizations have less traditions than the RCMP? I give you a hint. Where do you think the red serge come from?

      Delete
    9. Just because other organizations allow this does not make it right?? The Americans and British have done all sorts of foolish things. Thats a very typical Canadians response..ie..we must always look to the americans and british to guide us..even if we have good reason to think otherwise.
      If you come to this country or any other country I think you better respect the traditions and heritage of that country otherwise stay in your home country. I would say most immigrants to Canada do abide by the rules and do respect our way of life but there is a significant number that don't. At some point this becomes a problem since you end up with a growing number of people in Canada who have very different views and want to impose their views on the rest of us. The whole politically correct stance on immigration is a byproduct of this..anyone who criticizes immigrants is accused of being a racist..anyone who dares suggest we stick to some basic principles and traditions is labelled a dinosaur or old-fashioned.

      Delete
    10. and what exactly are these values, complicated? where do you draw the line? how exactly do sikhs impose their religion on RCMP? is everyone wearing a dastar?

      Delete
    11. The RCMP and their uniform is about as Canadians as it gets. Its not like we are country swimming in tradition but this is one recognized around the world. Its not about values..its about the uniform..removing the hat for a turban is a major change. Is it so horrible to deny Turban wearers the right to work for the RCMP force??? I mean out of all the jobs in Canada we cant restrict one..you gotta to be kidding me..

      Delete
    12. "I think you better respect the traditions and heritage of that country otherwise stay in your home country. "

      No deal.

      Delete
    13. "I think you better respect the traditions and heritage of that country otherwise stay in your home country. "

      No deal.

      It should be the deal but many immmigrants come here and then do as they please.

      Delete
    14. complicated,

      The RCMP and their uniform is about as Canadians as it gets.

      Sorry, but I also had a good laugh out of this comment. Just answer my question above. Where do you think the red serge come from?

      Delete
    15. complicated,

      I have one more example. What about the Canadian Forces? See them here, here, here and here. These men arguably serve Canada more honorable than you or me yet you want to deny them just because you feel they dress funny?

      Delete
  33. L'équipe canadienne de soccer de l'avenir

    http://tinyurl.com/mtrww7b

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  34. Quebec can spin this any way they want. The facts are Quebec (the franco”phony” part) are the most racist, bigoted, xenophobic people in all of North America…

    Decades of anti-English language bigotry proves this very well. I hope the world wakes up to this fact and does what many of us in Canada already do, boycott the province period.

    You want to change this bigots? Repeal Bill 101, give us back our equal rights, rot in hell bigots.

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  35. James Wolfe - I guess it takes a bigot to know one eh? You are probably the most racist person coming on here with your bs propoganda videos which totally twist the truth. Yo represent anglo-arrogance to the tee..its exactly this anglo-arrogance superiority complex that caused the seperatists in the first place..thanks a lot to your arrogant ancestors..

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    Replies
    1. Complicated - Go read a few books pea brain. You have no idea what’s been going on Quebec. Read - The tragedy of Quebec, His pride, our fall…just to name a few. Educate yourself on the issues before opening your brain dead mouth. You are typical of people in Quebec…they just can’t handle the truth. lolllllllllllllll

      Delete
    2. James Wolfe - I think its you who needs to read a few books and open up your racist mind a bit. The videos you promoted are full of misinformation..manipulating statistics to make your point. You are typical of anglo arrogance at its worst..another arrogant colonialist..you were probably kicked out of Zimbabwe..

      Delete
  36. FROM ED
    White African Canadian, In a way, I agree with you about immigrants. At least in the schools and workplace, the rules for everyone should be the same. this can simply be done by explaining to people before they come into this country that for their safety and ours certain rules will apply. The Kirpan thing was totally unfair. Imagine the feelings of a teen that's been suspended for a nail clipper or scissors and knows the kid at the next desk has a sharp dagger on him known to the authorities. Other students take his side and simply learn to hate the sikh boy because no one loves the teacher's pet, so to speak.
    A ruling as divisive as the PQ laws. Ed

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  37. FROM ED
    Complicated, How could you have the nerve to call somebody else racist. This statement is typical of your disdain for Anglos.
    "You represent anglo-arrogance to the tee..its exactly this anglo-arrogance superiority complex that caused the seperatists in the first place..thanks a lot to your arrogant ancestors.."
    You've got it in your bigoted head that Anglos were antagonists in spite of the evidence otherwise. I've poured my heart out telling how it was. I felt the chill creep over this province after Rene L. You weren't here but you still think you know better so you guess is must have been the Anglos and you broadcast this far and wide.. You tell me to get some Francos my age and ask them how it was for the French.
    So I ask my brother-in-law, Jean-Louie and his brother and uncle. The last two never learned English.Their version is, " We don't really know what Anglos were doing we were busy living our lives in French." You are the most racist person I know. An Anglophobe supreme. Ed

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    Replies
    1. I have talked to francophones your age and they paint a very different story. Do you really think your french buddies will tell you like it is..they dont want to get into an argument with you? Many francophones just quietly accepted the injustices. I know francophones in Quebec City who had to deal exclusively in english while working in the 1950s for a major bank..it was considered normal that all business affairs were in english in a province where the vast majority of people were francophones!!! So please dont tell me there wasnt just a wee bit of arrogance on the side of the anglophone community..especially the rich anglo elite who ruled everything. Its the same story ED in many British colonies..you head the same stories in Zimbabwe, India, Nigeria, Kenya and on and on. A tiny anglo minority that rules the country..while the majority native population slaves away for them.

      Even now..how many times have I seen anglos refuse to speak french even when there are far more francophones in a group..it happens over and over again..why is that ED? Must be some sort of inherent arrogance there..I guess anglos are somehow better than everyone else right??

      Have you actually read some of James Wolfe garbage..its about as racist as it gets..its non stop franco bashing..and anglo supremacy bs. He manipulates numbers and the truth ad nauseum. And you ED have the nerve to be upset about me calling someone racist..some of your comments are among the worst. How many times have you come on here going on and on about how superior the anglos work was to francophones work and so on.

      Delete
    2. LD

      It's always the same response from you, that you talked to older Québécois people that told you how bad it was here for them before Bill 101. Did they also tell you that Montreal was the premier city in the country? Did they tell you Montreal was the financial hub, transportation hub, education hub of all of Canada? Did they tell you that Quebec was the manufacturing powerhouse of the country? Did they tell you the rest of the country relied on Montreal and Quebec? That we built everything from ships to trains, cars, bridges, tires, tv's and everything else under the sun here? Montreal is a branch office city now. This all happened within my lifetime and I was born in '75. When Montreal does well all of Quebec does well, all boats rise with the tide as they say. Separatist/nationalist policies have changed Montreal's trajectory for the worse. Time for a rethink of how Montreal is governed within Quebec.

      Delete
    3. complicated,

      I do not know where you get your information but it is most certainly wrong as while Zimbabwe, India, Nigeria and Kenya still speak English, there is virtually no British people there anymore.

      Delete
    4. Troy - I never said they dont still speak english. They were colonized so I suspect many of them still speak english. My point was that the minority white population were in total control of the country for decades amassing great wealth for themselves at the expense of the native population. This is the typical European way of colonizing.

      LD - I am well aware that Montreal was a great city and it no longer is..we talk about this ad nauseum. My point is that the arrogance of the anglos - in particular the elite anglos - was what pushed the francophones to rebel in the 1960s/1970s. After awhile you get sick and tired of watching all the wealth go to a minority group..you get sick and tired of being told to speak a language which is spoken only by a minority group..you get sick and tired of working for bosses who speak to you in the minority language..you get sick and tired of being treated like a second class citizen in your own land. Ask people in other European colonies..its always the same story. Its exactly this arrogance that spawned the seperatist movement. Now the genie is out of the bottle and it will never go back in..so yes I agree that Montreal has suffered immensely since the seperatists took over..there is no question that economically they have mismanaged this province. But if there hadnt been such an arrogant pompous anglo elite around in the first place then I doubt the seperatist movement would have ever existed.

      So now here we are decades later and the battle continues. Trashing francophones on a regular basis like many on this forum are not going to help. Spreading mistruths and false information like James Wolfe does is not going to help. ED waxing poetic about how happy everyone was in the past is not going to help now. Cutie dreaming of partition is not going to help. On the other side the PQ, Quebec solidaire, Option Nationale radicals are certainly not going to help either. We need some moderates that can focus on the real problems in this province and stop spending every last minnute focusing on the same old language debate..lets get on with cutting waste/taxes, encouraging business, cutting corruption and so on. The only two parties that have every run this province have failed completely in this manner over the past 50 years..its time for a change.

      Delete
    5. LD

      Agreed, The CAQ had potential but have been a bust. The Libs have elected a trained brain surgeon to lead them, we'll see how that works out for them. We move forward once we stop looking in the rear view mirror. Unfortunately too many people here are stuck in reverse.

      Delete
    6. "after awhile you get sick and tired of watching all the wealth go to a minority group" - where do you think the wealth goes now? to a minority as well. it's called 'the wealthy'. they are not an ethnic/religious/etc minority, but they are a minority. the only thing that improved over the past decades is the so-called standard of living, giving the overall impression that common folks are richer.

      Delete
    7. The big difference is that a lot more francophones can work in their language now as compared to the past. I think also there are a larger number of wealthier francophones than there was in the past. In the past the bulk of the money and power was with the anglophone community..perhaps it still is to an extent but not to the same extent it was in the past.

      Well not sure how we can say the CAQ is a bust when they have never governed? The only criticism I hear of them is that they didnt kill Bill 14 right away which is pretty weak. The CAQ have already said they will not support the meat of this bill so in effect the Bill will be toothless even if it does pass. This makes it look like they are being reasonable and that they are concerned about protecting the french lnaguage but at the same time they are not going to punish anglophones in the process. Overall I find they are handling Bill 14 very well. Again if you only focus on the language issue then you will miss the main point of the CAQ..and that is to clean up the government and stop talking about language issues.

      Delete
    8. "In the past the bulk of the money and power was with the anglophone community."

      Did you miss the bit of history where the Québécois (francophones) were mainly controlled by the Catholic church?
      While the Catholic church was telling the francophones to have lots of kids, "care for the land", and give them their money, the protestants (anglos) were working hard and building businesses.

      Should we blame the anglos for this? Is it fair to give excessive advantages to francos because of their (our) history?
      There should be much less wealthy francophones than anglophones; it's what the francophone community wanted for so long (and many of them still want that today, with the high level of union support)

      I'm tired of people using the past as an argument. At some point, we need to get over it and move on, if we ever want to have a decent future. Let's stop blaming everyone else and take responsibility for the choices we make today.

      Delete
    9. I agree with your last line..at some point we do need to move on. But not understanding what caused the seperation movement and the sensitivity of language by so many francophones is a must if we are going to move forward. There are so many arrogant, rude and disrespectful comments thrown around here that many francophones would find offensive and I wonder sometimes if the anglo community has really moved as far away from the old arrogant ways as we think.

      Delete
    10. "But not understanding what caused the seperation movement and the sensitivity of language by so many francophones is a must if we are going to move forward."

      I definitely agree with this, too many people have no idea what they're defending.

      I can't say I agree with the rest though; I'm probably biased, but what I see (in general) is one group of peaceful people (non-separatists) who simply want to go about their lives, and another group who will stop at nothing to reach their goal, honest or not (separatists).

      Personally I don't even think being a "separatist" is legitimate anymore; their movement was defeated twice, the population has made it clear that we aren't interested, and yet they don't seem to get the point. They'd rather keep spending our money on the issue.
      You could almost consider it a criminal act: they are taking our money to pay for something the majority has voted against. Isn't the government supposed to represent the people? Maybe that's why the non-separatists have been getting more upset lately.

      Note that unlike the separatists, the rest of us don't feel the need to use violence to reach our goals.

      Delete
    11. "I think also there are a larger number of wealthier francophones than there was in the past. "

      well... yeah. once you have 0-3 children instead of 25... you're bound to have more chances at a decent living. just sayin'. and that is not anglo's fault.

      Delete
    12. "I'm tired of people using the past as an argument. At some point, we need to get over it and move on, if we ever want to have a decent future."

      When Mr. Ed says something like : in the fifties, francos and anglos got along just fine in Wonderland until super racist René Lévesque came out of the blue and wrecked everything, I find difficult to answer without refering to the past.

      Also, I noted that when, following such a comment, someone gives a very articulate answer that explains why francophones were fed up (just like complicated did), there is often someone that comes up with the "let's forget the past" idea.

      Delete
    13. complicated,

      Troy - I never said they dont still speak english. They were colonized so I suspect many of them still speak english. My point was that the minority white population were in total control of the country for decades amassing great wealth for themselves at the expense of the native population. This is the typical European way of colonizing.

      I am sorry but I had a good laugh reading your answer. You do have the balls to pretend as if Quebec francophones are not Europeans and only the anglophones are.

      Delete
  38. FROM ED
    Montreal was the Industrial capital of North America. American visitors could not get over the magnificence of our city. They were surprised how they could be spoken to in English by Francophones. They marvelled at the friendliness of our (French and English) people.
    Montreal was a FORWARDING CITY. That means we were in an ideal position to send on goods from Europe and Asia to rthe rest of North America. Also to ship goods then opposite way. A billion dollar industry, thanks to an excellent harbour.When the PQ ordered French only, the Forwarders were put in an impossible position. Most of the goods from other countries were accomanied by English bills of lading.Translating them into French would require millions of dollars and more to send them on in English. It became easier to move the forwarding to industry hungry Torornto.
    Mulroney, who was embarrassed that he'd been born in Quebec and is now embarrassed that he'd been born, transferred the Railway head offices first, then the shops and others followed..The Harbour died and the forwarding wth it.
    It was not enough unfortunately for the PQ who seem to think that if they drive the Quebec economy deep enough into the ground the English will leave. It never occurs to them that they will have nothing left for themselves. Ed

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