Wednesday, September 19, 2012

Reader Chronicles....Volume One

 Today we start what I hope will become a regular feature of this blog, stories written by our contributors detailing their personal experiences as an anglo or ethnic from Quebec.

These stories may include a description of growing up in Quebec, moving away, moving here, what it is like to be an ex-patriot, your early, medium or late childhood as an anglo, comparisons between life here and elsewhere, school life, work environment and community life, not in the least;
You don't have to give your name and can leave out specific details in order to protect your anonymity
Here is our first contribution;

A Brief Chronicle of my Youth
BY ED BROWN

 I was born in 1936.  Hitler and Mussolini were sabre rattling across Europe. My father taught me to read at four years of age using the comics in the Montreal Star which came out in mid afternoon with a later version at 6 pm.
My  grandfather had been Mayor in Moncton, New  Brunswick  for many years in the 30's and 40's so my father was indoctrinated in politics. He would sit me on his knee and after we had read the comics together, he would read me some of the articles that he felt  I could understand. At the supper table he would discuss the world situation with my mother. I noticed that while he did this, my sisters would gab to each other. As an ardent eavesdropper, I couldn't understand how they would not want to know what was going on around them. I  listened and learned.

    At age six  I fully felt the fear of war as my two uncles were in the Dieppe raid. One of whom was close to us and I loved him very much. He survived but was killed in France a few years later. I could not understand why he died protecting a country that Frenchmen here refused to defend. My close friend  Marcel Bedard spoke English well with a heavy accent and could not understand why my uncles were allowed to go and his weren't. He said they were told in Church that war is a sin.
    After the war there were tears and jubilation. Men who had been away for six years  ('38 to '45 many went before the war started, to bolster England's defences) finally arrived home among us. Some to find out that women they loved had tired of waiting and found someone else. Others to find that children had been mysteriously born in their absence. These children were passed off  as war orphans of which there were many and life went on.

     There was no lack of jobs on the English side but by 1950 companies like Bell and CNR were demanding grade nine (second high) for  menial jobs and full high school for office or executive positions. This made it difficult for francophones to get hired as many had not gone to high school at all.  Claiming a grade nine education, I became a teller at the Dominion Bank on Rachel street. Each of the four tellers balanced off fifty thousand in cash every day. We were right in the Jewish business district and most payrolls were paid in cash. We each had a forty five hand gun in our cage which we  kept under the counter out of sight. The police came once for an accidental alarm and they were angry because they only had thirty eight revolvers.

Most of Verdun at that time was forested. From Woodland avenue out toward LaSalle, it  was all bush. We had apple and pear trees in our yard. Watching ships go through the canal was interesting. Squeezing through the bridges and the locks, men from all over the world could reach out and touch your hand. The canal and rail lines were an anathema to bus drivers. Sometimes after waiting for a hundred car freight train to pass on the tracks that ran between St. James and Notre Dame, a boat would be coming through the canal and the bridge started turning to signify another long wait. The Seaway cleared up the boat problem and the tracks have been rerouted and removed.

    The Laurentian mountains area was the holiday camps for poor people. Both C.N. And C.P. had lines running through them. It enabled cheap transport to children's summer camps, family cottages and rentals for short or whole summer periods. In 1942  my grandmother came over from Ireland. My mother had rented a cottage in Weir, between Lac des Seize Iles and Huberdeau. Since my father worked for C.N. (auditor of passenger accounts) his long service gave us passes to travel. He  had been exempted from the war because his work in the railway was considered essential. At that time rail was the only link completely connecting Canada. Movement of  POWs (Prisoner Of War) was under his responsibility.

    My grandmother felt Verdun was too bustling for her. The telephone and doorbell annoyed her. “I've no idea why anyone would want one of the damn things. The door is open why do they have to ring the bloody bell.” My grandmother was born and raised and worked on the docks of Dublin and she could out-swear any sailor. The only time she went to mass was Christmas eve.

    My father arranged with our neighbour who was a warden at the Catholic Church to pay for the seats. They charged fifty cents to discourage people who only came at Christmas and took the place of regulars. It was 1950. I was fourteen and being the only regular church goer in the family I was elected to take her. My father gave me the one dollar for both seats and we left. Arriving at the Church our neighbour stated “That will be a dollar for the seats.”  Grandma perked up and said, loudly  “Jesus, Mary and Holy St. Anthony, what do ya mean a dollar. for the seats? Sure we don't want to buy them, we only want to park our arse on them.” People in the pews were looking back to see what the commotion was. Our neighbour glared at me with a look that said get her under control. I don't remember how I did it, but I did. Most of that evening is a blur, thankfully.  The upshot is that my grandmother took over the cottage at Weir and we rented it year round. 

    My father bought a two room house in the forties and it was decided that until he built another room I would live with my grandmother in the country. It was wonderful. Gram didn't care where I was or what I did, I was free to roam the wilderness. I slept under a great fir tree near Pike lake on the Log Road, swam in the lake and the creek, ate berries and went home when I was really hungry.

 School was the Anglican Church. In winter, each of the six  boys in the village school had to bring a log for the pot belly stove which was in the center of the  room. The two girls were exempt. My grandmother gave me the smallest log she could find. The Schoolmaster said I would be strapped if I didn't bring bigger logs. Gram said “To hell with him, it's not him that chops them it's me.  I need them here.” I was thinking, “wait a minute it's me that chops them,”  but I knew it was no use, so I found a solution. We usually dropped our logs in the snow and played outside the school. When I saw the school master appear I would grab someone else's log and dash inside. I made sure to grab a different boys log each day so no one noticed.

    I spent two years with her and went home to hard labour. My father had added two more rooms to the house and decided to dig out the basement. Since the house came with three lots, I was given the job of running the wheelbarrows that my father and uncle filled with earth up a ramp and into the empty lots beside. The wet mud was heavy. To get the  barrow moving I had to make my skinny twelve year old body stiff and lean over until my nose was almost touching the mud. At the end of the summer I had a pair of shoulders like Gordie Howe  It was 1948, I was going to high school and felt ready to take on the world.  

    By 1952 all was right with the world. Mayor Camille Houde, having been let out of prison was back in form in Montreal and Maurice  'Le Chef'  Duplessis was at the helm in Quebec. Duplessis was against the separatists. He wanted stability and order and we got it. Montreal on the other hand was still Houdeville. Clubs and gambling were wide open much to the joy of the young  men, twenty four hours a day. The cops were bribeable and tough. They only arrested you if you gave them a hard time. First they would beat the hell out of you. On Friday and Saturday night there was two cops on each of the four corners at St. Laurent and St.Catherine, each with a truncheon in his hand.
   
 Night life on the lower main was grand. In the many western clubs where live bands played Hank Williams type music the beer was forty cents per quart. A dime tip to the waiter was considered good. Inside the clubs you were protected by the pegre. It stayed that way until Mayor Drapeau decided to lean on the clubs and gambling houses, The gangsters needed money, so we started to have a bank robbery per day in the city.

    Peace reigned until the election of Jean Lesage and a Liberal government . They took control of education and the welfare system and made it a provincial responsibility. They pumped millions into education. The quiet revolution began to form in the mind of the education minister, a man called Rene Levesque. 
                                                                          Ed Brown.

                  
If you'd like to contribute a piece, please contact me via email.

Remember, reader contributions are vital to this blog,

153 comments:

  1. Good story, Ed. Since I was born the same year as "Goldilocks" Charest, you filled me in on the 40s and 50s. I knew Montreal had a plenitude of speakeasies, and it's interesting how that Main/Ste. Catherines intersection is sill a red light district, but not exactly like in the pre-Drapeau days.

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  2. What a great post. And a great idea! I was born in the mid 60s in Montreal, and lived and worked there until we moved away to Kingston in 2009, so the majority of my memories and experiences, and also my friends and family, to date, are in my hometown. I'm looking forward to reading more reader contributions about my previous home.

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  3. Just a tiny post on my childhood - when I was a little girl in west end Ottawa (French community) I was a protestant and my friends (all French) were catholic. The old song went "catholics, catholics, ring the bell, protestants, protestants go to hell". To be accepted in the neighbourhood, my father took me to catholic church and I became catholic and was finally accepted by my French friends. Now it's language, then it was religion. The age old adage is, if there is nothing else to chew on, we become bored and like an ulcer, we chew out our own stomachs. Sad but true in our Quebec society. Turn on your TV guys and check out the middle east and appreciate what we have here in Canada and don't jeopardize it by eating out your own stomachs.

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  4. This Readers Chronicles idea is a very good idea. I like it and I am looking foward to read about different personnal experiences.

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  5. Most separatists (other than Gilles Proulx) hate on Duplessis so much. Its bewildering considering during his time he kept the french as ignorant baby factories. He did amazing things for demographics. Now they stop at 0 to 2 babies and move to the burbs because they are too unwilling to take the financial hit. Not to mention it is so much more fun and easier to blame anglos and ethnics than to actually do something yourself.

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  6. Great post. It's always interesting to hear what life in our city was like in the past, especially my part of town LaSalle/Verdun. Good feature.

    Note, the NFB website ( www.nfb.ca ,App also available) has some great films (for free) on Montreal and what life was like here in the 50's and 60's, check them out.

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    1. Elle était belle la vie à Montréal dans les années 1950 et 1960. Les Anglais n'avaient pas à servir la clientèle en français. C'était encore l'époque du speak white. C'était encore l'époque où l'Anglais méprisait ouvertement le Québécois. C'était encore l'époque où dans un restaurant le parlant français pouvait se faire garrocher son plat devant lui, au lieu d'être déposé.

      Mais heureusement ce n'est plus comme ça aujourd'hui. Le Québécois peut maintenant dire avec confiance, en anglais : « speak to me in french fucking bloke, half-american, second-class anglo-saxon ».

      Effet boeuf garanti.

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    2. C'est exactement ce que je voulais exprimer mais...

      Excellent commentaire

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    3. Good grief, stop blaming others for your past misfortunes. The Church in Quebec is what kept your people down and out not les maudite Anglais. Hiring an illiterate and uneducated person is bad business. It's only since the 60's that Francophones started becoming part of the manager class in Montreal and education had EVERYTHING to do with that.

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    4. Est-ce une raison pour traiter les humains comme des moins que rien?Et les forcer de s'exprimer dans une langue autre que la leur?

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    5. Parlerais-tu, par exemple, des illuminés qui accostent les gens à Montréal pour leur ordonner de se parler entre eux en Français, S.R.?

      Ça marche d'un bord comme de l'autre. Si c'était mal auparavant quand les anglais le faisaient, c'est mal aujourd'hui aussi, non?

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    6. Don't bother with S.R - as you can see he has all the time in the world to create more Blogger profiles so that he can have conversations with himself.

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    7. Est-ce une raison pour traiter les humains comme des moins que rien?Et les forcer de s'exprimer dans une langue autre que la leur?

      I agree with you, S.R.: join me to sign a petition to abolish Bill 101! Or does it only apply when the boot is on an english foot?

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    8. "Ça marche d'un bord comme de l'autre"

      Pas tout à fait si nous tenons compte du rapport de force : 325 000 000 vs 7 millions

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    9. Nice use of an very old english word there, Super Racist.

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    10. So, because there's fewer of you elsewhere in the continent, you are allowed to get nasty: is that what you're saying? I'm sure, then, that you won't mind the natives taking some scalps every now and then...

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    11. Le rapport de force, ça peut justifier de forcer les commerçants comme Walmart et Starbucks à s'afficher en Français. Mais ça justifie mal de déranger deux personnes dans une conversation privée et de leur dire de parler blanc.

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  7. Well have to admit that the 40s and 50s were probably a great time to be english here in Quebec. Total control..all the best jobs..even though a minority. There are too many examples of this all over the world..Rhodesia, Nigeria, Kenya, India, Hong Kong where the english lived a very priviliged life on the backs of the poorer native population. Then they were all shocked that the natives got mad and rebelled at some point. I am as angry at this older anglo population as I am now at the PQ seperatist zealots. Both are and were intolerant of another large segment of the population..both create hate between groups and divisiveness. The PQ though do it on purpose..perhaps the old anglos were just too insensitive to notice or care.
    The bottom line is it brought to us to where we are today. Now do we repeat the same mistakes that so many other groups have made over the years. Do we appeal to our primal instincts and lash out with violence the ultimate outcome..time will tell but one thing is for sure that humans are slow to learn from history.

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    1. Damn, your separatist friends have really brainwashed you well. When you speak like this do they pat you on the head like a good Uncle Tom?
      Jesus Christ, what a fucking joke you are.

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    2. I see lots of Ad Hominem against complicated, but very little refuting.

      If you read what he wrote, you'd see he's not a separatist, he just thinks about things from both angles rather than simply his own. It's something almost no one of this board has shown themselves capable of doing.

      How much easier it is to simply drown out dissenters in a flood of insults...

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    3. So, you're saying that because of what the English did in Rhodesia, everything is great in Zimbabwe today... there is a reason why Nelson Mandela is celebrated and Robert Mugabe is widely reviled: wake up and smell the coffee!

      On the other hand, the Indians got rid of the English, but not of the language, go figure. Maybe they thought that it was beneficial for, let me guess, jobs and trade?

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    4. One question for complicated - you argue that anglophones being loud and upset will only strengthen the separatists. Over the past campaign, from the anglo side I have seen more anger and shouting than I have ever seen since I came here. Shouldn't PQ have mustered then more votes? I mean the difference in votes between PQ and PLQ is only 32,800.

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  8. James John - The truth hurts doesnt it. I tell it like it is to both sides. Believe me I have pissed off more francophones than anglophones in this city. But I am sick and tired of listening to older anglos tell me they had nothing to do with what happened here back in the 1970s..they were and are part of the problem.

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    1. I find it funny when the likes of Ed Brown tell of how nice and perfect and a wonderful utopia Montreal was, with everyone living in perfect harmony, until out of nowhere the Francophones got rabid on them, for no other reason than base human greed.

      Something in that narrative just doesn't quite ring right, does it...

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    2. Funny how if I submitted my ancestors history to this site it would sound an awful lot like the poor victim french Canadians. Well up until the part where they shook off the catholic church and bettered themselves instead of blaming others and demanding the gouvernemaman subsidize them. We even learned french very well, though we'll always fail the mother tongue test.
      Comparing Quebec to Rhodesia and acting like every anglo had a great job just shows how blatantly ignorant the two of you are. You probably think Griffintown was Rhodesia.

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    3. You totally miss my point. Rhodesia is an extreme example but the mentality of the british and many of the english here were quite similar. Of course there were poor english and irish people here also but in general there was a general lack of respect or sensitivity to the plight of the majority francophones here. Why was that??

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    4. And now that Rhodesia is Zimbabwe and all but a handful of English have left or have been murdered, it's the land of milk and honey (bearing in mind that Rhodesia was one of the richest countries in Africa, whereas Zimbabwe has hyperinflation and millions of people going hungry...).

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  9. Yannick - Thats exactly my thoughs when I read Mr.Browns piece and also from some of his other statements. There is no sense that the english did anything wrong..it all the fault of the crazy seperatist francophones. I think most anglophones in the past were just insensitive to the plight of the francophones..they were too busy with their own lives to notice the injustices against the french. They believed that we were in an english country and that the french should just learn english and be quiet.

    What bothers me so much with people in this forum is that there is a total unwillingness to accept any part of the blame for the tensions here in Quebec. If the anglos here cant admit or see that they were as much of the problem as the militant francophones then we will never get far. I believe the younger anglos are more open to this and they are often totally bilingual anyway so for them its not really an issue.

    I read a book last year about a Zimbabwean white farmer who lost her land. Obviously this was a more extreme case. But again it struck more how she was totally insensitive to the fact that all the natives around her..about 90 percent of the population..were much poorer and owned very little of the land. You would think that would bother a normal person..living in a country where 90 percent of the population is native and you are a tiny minority and your minority owns everything. Instead it wall all about her shock at losing the land and how this could happen. And how there is total chaos now and starvation..she is right that the natives are not running things well but to not expect them to be angry at some point and revolt is quite insensitive. If the rich white minority had tried harder to give more land to the natives and pay them better and so on perhaps all the nastiness could have been avoided.

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    1. "They believed that we were in an english country and that the french should just learn english and be quiet."

      Change the word 'English' to 'French' and you accurately describe the Quebec of today.
      What you disdain then, you support now, its just a case of who is on top.

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    2. The class divide was between Catholics and Protestants and there was a lot of harmony achieved between the French and Irish. Scan a list of all the famous people of Irish and French descent. Anglos voted overwhelmingly for Jean Lesage but rejected the PQunt repeatedly. Why is that? Might have been because Lesage wasn‘t an ethnocentric nationalist. In fact this french vs english divide didn‘t really occur until that racist scumbag Levesque came in and started dividing people.
      Why should the english have done something about Duplessis‘ and the church‘s oppression? On twitter I am repeatedly told that 101 to cegep is not my fight. In 30 years there will be a new victim revisionist history where all the anglos got to be billingual and go to schools like McGill while all the poor francophones were stuck at shitty UQAM. Cry me a fucking river.

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    3. I dont disagree with you. I dont like the seperatists at all nor believe in their anti-english policies. But the english in the past were not any better really and thats my main point. The insensitivity of the english in the past is what eventually spawned the PQ and how has that worked out. Pretty dumb really to treat the majority voting population with such disdain.

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    4. I read a book last year about a Zimbabwean white farmer who lost her land. Obviously this was a more extreme case. But again it struck more how she was totally insensitive to the fact that all the natives around her..about 90 percent of the population..were much poorer and owned very little of the land.

      Now the natives own all of the land and they are poorer still. By the way: I think it's useful for you, if you want to be taken seriously, to stop attacking the straw man - entirely of your construction - that the anglophones are oblivious to the unjustness of the previous situation. It's rather the case that, having recognised that, we expect those who used to suffer from it and be against it then, to stick to their original opinion and not change it just because now they can dish it out.

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    5. Uh no, they ruling classes and the church spawned Lesage, which was a normal reaction to what was going on. Luckily he was an honest man who genuinely loved his people, not just white francophones. The PQunt is something hideous that happens when vain, ignorant people are taken advantage of by scumbag politicians.
      Its a damn shame we didn‘t go down the Lesage or even Bourassa route. The PQunt is all about creating false division. There is no convincing their most ardent supporters, they are content in their ignorance, being flattered as the honoured race.

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    6. My main point was that I have found the tone of many in the english media and also many commentators on blogs such as this and in newspapers across Canada..to be making very agressive and disrespectful comments about Quebec. Its gotten quite nasty. I think its time to tone it down as it wont help us at all.
      Then I get called an apologist..then I read all these comments about the past from the old anglos about how great everything was. Hence it strikes me that many of these anglos still dont get it..they dont understand why the francophones got mad..they want to blame Rene Levesque. But there was anger on the streets for years simmering under the surface and Levesque just happened to be the one that channeled it up to the surface.

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    7. "Change the word 'English' to 'French' and you accurately describe the Quebec of today.
      What you disdain then, you support now, its just a case of who is on top."


      I don't agree with separatists at all when they want to stomp out English.

      But from there to say "there was never any issue", well...

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    8. Yannick, care to point out who's saying that there was never an issue?

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    9. Levesque was a racist scumbag opportunist who merely wanted to be king. Francophones were well on their way thanks to Lesage before he decided to drive that wedge.
      I will calm the rhetoric when the PQunt yanks all their gross policies off the table. Until then I am going to voice my displeasure whether you like it or not.
      I know plenty of francophones who hate the PQunt. I guess they are Quebec bashers.

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    10. Editor 1:56:00 PM EDT

      Exactly what I was planning to write this morning before I got sidetracked.

      The times of Speak White are alive and well. The White is not what it used to be before, but the Speak White culture persists. The torch has been passed on to a different group which has adopted and internalized the very mentality which, in the past, it was on the receiving end of. The causes of this might be cultural (the colonized never ceased to be the colonizer), or maybe psychological (acting like a colonizer today helps wash off the stigma of having been the colonized before). It's hard to tell.

      It is unfortunate that in its reawakening in the 1960's, QC decided to try to rebuild a colony of les maitres, instead of vanishing the ghosts of the old era once and for all and building an egalitarian nation state. By clinging on to the culture of Speak White ("speak to me in french fucking bloke, half-american, second-class anglo-saxon") it became something that is not much of any improvement, but more of the same. And this is where I (and many immigrants like me) drop out and disconnect. I'm all in favor of a unique society, with an alternative system to the Anglo-American corporate capitalism, more egalitarian, with another language spoken in place of the boring continental one. But I just cannot (and could never) stomach the nationalist, revanchist, re-conquesting aspect lurking behind it all.

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    11. Ed Brown has said on a number of occasion that there was never a problem until the Quiet Revolution started and, especially, Levesque got elected as Premier of Quebec under the PQ. That all of the tension originates solely from the Francophones.

      In fact it is implied by the post he made today.

      There have been others in the past who have either stated it or alluded to it, but I don't remember specifics.

      Also abrasive is to downplay or dismiss the problems of the past - instead trying to foist them onto the Catholic Church, the elites of the times, etc... (was it the Catholic church that made sure Ottawa could not be bothered to hire telephone operators that could speak French? to listen to some, you'd almost imagine it) rather than trying to say that both were important.

      Note that Francophones (including myself, sadly, when I'm particularly frustrated) are also guilty of the opposite, implying that Francophones are innocent victims and that the sole culprits are the Anglophones. I can see how this is particularly abrasive when taken in the present day when the Francophones in Quebec are wielding all the power and still claiming victimhood. It's like if someone's trying to steal something from you, and you grab their arm, and they say "stop it, you're hurting me" instead of relinquishing the stolen object.

      I don't remember where it is I read this comment, but it said this : when it comes to the linguistic conflict, the Francophones are guilty of living in the past (by constantly bringing up past grievances), and the Anglophones are guilty of ignoring it. I don't think either approach in its exclusivity is very productive.

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    12. In a way hes right. Levesque was a racist scumbag who started us on this “nouse nous nous“ bullshit. Suddenly it wasn‘t that catholic church and duplessis, it was the méchant anglais. And with that a lot of poor english speakers were falsely lumped in. Instead of getting the house in order it was about revenge and being the victim.
      Who‘s gonna apologize to me about my grandmother dropping out of school after grade 6? Or the fact that I had illiterate relatives still alive in the 1980s? Not to mention my native blood on my father‘s side.
      Fucking bullshit.

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    13. "Who‘s gonna apologize to me about my grandmother dropping out of school after grade 6? Or the fact that I had illiterate relatives still alive in the 1980s? Not to mention my native blood on my father‘s side."

      Huh?

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    14. Oops sorry, I forgot that in Canada the french had the monopoly on being the victims. Carry on...

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    15. My point is anyone can play the victim card.

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    16. @Yannick Wednesday, September 19, 2012 2:49:00 PM EDT

      I don't remember where it is I read this comment, but it said this : when it comes to the linguistic conflict, the Francophones are guilty of living in the past (by constantly bringing up past grievances), and the Anglophones are guilty of ignoring it.

      I was the one who had posted that comment and it actually said:

      The French Canadians live in history, drilled to remember all that has made them what they are; and alas, every grievance. The English Canadians live in the present and fail to comprehend how much of the present is tied up with the past.

      That quote also continued:

      Yet it must be said that since the clashes of wartime, when perhaps both sides were appalled at the chasm that was opening in the nation, English Canadians have put forth a far greater effort than ever before to understand. Some of it is condescending, some of it blunders, but a lot of it adds up to a realization on both sides that the effort is necessary and should reach its goal.

      This was published in 1955 in a book called “Quebec Now” and was cited in a course on Quebec History at Marianopolis College (an English CEGEP, incidentally) about how others have viewed French Canadians and Quebec:
      http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/docs/views/chapin13.htm

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    17. Thanks, The Cat!

      I think it's a very succint quote, which has lost none of its relevance in fifty years. Plus ça change, plus c'est pareil...

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    18. The current Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, wrote an excellent book on the subject of the English Canadian "effort to understand", specifically as it relates to bilingualism. It's called "Sorry, I Don't Speak French: Confronting the Canadian Crisis That Won't Go Away", and is published in both official languages. It's worth reading just for his discussion of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, and the two men who were key participants, André Laurendeau and F R Scott. Depressing to think that there's no one of their calibre in Canadian public life in 2012. Fraser's book pretty much concurs with the assessment from "Quebec Now [i.e. 1955]", and it was published in 2006!

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  10. Complicated & Yannick, you're not quite the avant-guard thinkers you play yourselves out
    to be. Though it can be agreed that there are some readers on this blog who harbor a little
    more anger over the present state of affairs in Quebec than they maybe should be, trying to
    play devil's advocate for both sides just makes both of you come off as pandering apologists.

    See, though there may be faults on both sides, thew nature of the fault on the French side
    has become increasingly antagonistic. If this were a boxing match, the seps are constantly
    sneaking in groin shots, toe-stomps and headbutts. That's why so many readers take to anger
    when they read anything excusing that kind of behavior.

    Also, by saying that sovreignty should be granted on the grounds by which it's been pursued
    (by childish, right-suppressing means), you're setting a foul precedent for other communities
    around the world who might model Quebec's road to independence.

    Take S.R for example, a person like him simply does not deserve to be happy - because he is
    determined to achieve his happiness at the detriment of others. By taking his side, you're
    condoning some of the blatantly derogatory statements he makes on this blog, while hypocritcally
    demanding respect from others.

    Overall, despite there being two sides to every story, the onus is on the seps to embrace a
    more "live and let live" stance and embrace their neighbors.

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    1. There is an onus on the anglos also to accept their responsibility from the past and even some of the rude statements they are making now.

      Anybody who dares say that the anglos have some responsibility in the fight are labelled apologists. Thats ridiculous..so you are advocating the George Bush approach which is ``you are either with us or against us`` which is ridiculous.

      So one has to be in one camp or the other..we are not talking about a Hollywood movie here..this is the real world. The real world is shades of grey not black and white. There are too many people in the world that want to simplify arguments and polarize. I will not be forced into one side or the other just to placate people here. I am not trying to be avant-garde either but on a forum like this we always get one side of the story. Its not healthy at all. It may make you feel wonderful but its not a reflection of the real story but only one story that you all want to hear.

      Personally I often wonder if its worth the time and effort to post on forums like this. Forums which are heavily biased towards one view..in which most people take turns patting each other on the back for their attacks on the evil enemy. Perhaps I am naive but I hope that bringing a more balanced view of topics will make some of these people reconsider their stubborn views..but probably that is not the case.





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    2. I wouldn't lump Yannick and complicated in the same bunch. Yannick likes to play devil's advocate, but when push comes to shove he is as staunch a believer in fairness as anyone. Complicated, on the other hand, seems to have swallowed every cliché known to man and keep mindlessly spewing them out to "enlighten" us poor mortals, when his arguments have got more holes than a pair of fishnet stockings. His idea of justice is role reversal, he believes in nothing but his pet theory of the day and a generous helping of "white man's burden". Apparently he's disappointed the CAQ lost. Because he likes them. Because, like him, they're bland... I mean blank, and ready to follow the wind.

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    3. I'm willing to bet he's studying at Concordia, listening to shitloads of Dead Kennedys, Discharge and whatever punk band Maximum Rock n' Roll is touting these days and hating on any group that holds power.

      Complicated - read QP's statement about Zimbabwe. What he said is true. In some cases it's not insensitivity, but more over a case of simply taking the action others will not.

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    4. I would love for that to happen too. But as we have seen so many times in history groups try to get revenge over past injustices. Unfortunately the PQ is in that camp. The pendulum is swinging the other way now. However anglos and the english media lashing out all the time is not helping..its adding more fuel on the fire. Lets focus on making sure the PQ do not get re-elected.

      Your point over Zimbabwe is correct..they are all starving now..I am well aware of that. And we can see a much milder version of that here in Quebec over the past 35 years. The economy has been chronically weakened since the PQ first came in power. My point simply was to try to understand how a minority can be so oblivious to a suffering majority around it and not expect blowback at some point.

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    5. When I reflect on Zimbabwe, I do not conclude that it posthumously justifies the treatment of the black majority by the white minority in Rhodesia. I think it is very hypocritical of supposedly democracy-loving folk to reminisce nostalgically about a country which did not allow representation to the majority of their country.

      Instead, I lament the fact that a terrible situation was replaced by an even worse one.

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    6. Personally I often wonder if its worth the time and effort to post on forums like this.

      Yep, no votes to be farmed here for wannabe CAQ politicians.

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    7. Yannick, nobody is arguing that things were good before, just that, the way they tried and put them right was in itself wrong. Look at South Africa for a more instructive example. And, even now that some second-rate politicians have squandered most of the achievement of Nelson Mandela and have started blaming the white men again, it's still better to be black OR white in South Africa than it is in Zimbabwe.

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    8. Yannick: always a pleasure discussing with you, even on the other occasions when we disagree.

      complicated:

      My point simply was to try to understand how a minority can be so oblivious to a suffering majority around it and not expect blowback at some point.

      Since you've come down from your high horse, I'll engage with you on this point and leave the cheap shots aside. The fact is: it may well be true that the minority was oblivious to the suffering majority. That was the situation then, i.e. about 40-50 years ago. Today we are all well aware of the plight of the Francophones in Quebec back then. You'd find very few and far between anglophones and no allophones at all admitting that things were better back then, rather, in some cases, that they personally had a better experience of living in Quebec. If you ask me, the best time was when Quebec was officially bilingual (even if I only made a few passing visits back then) and, in Montreal at least, you could address anyone in either language and generally get on... now it's gone too far the other way, so, although it is humanly understandable that someone wants some retribution, it goes over the head of the vast majority of the population (not just the anglophones, but the allophones and the less belligerant section of the francophones) who just wants social peace and having their rights upheld. More importantly: it embraces the very behaviour that was stygmatised in the anglos of days gone by. To quote S.R. in a rare moment of candour:

      Est-ce une raison pour traiter les humains comme des moins que rien?Et les forcer de s'exprimer dans une langue autre que la leur?

      And the answer is no, whether there's 7 million of them or 325 million, whether they's english or french, black or white... you get my drift. Nobody wants the French to go away or fall into line, just to treat anglos and allos as equal.

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    9. And the post/rebuttal of the day goes to The Quebec Partition.

      BTW, anyone justifying what Mugabe has done not only to white farmers (FYI, a few were murdered as a result of the "reclamation project"), as well as his fellow blacks is sick.

      Aside from having the blood of white farmers on his hands Mugabe is also responsible for indirectly killing many thousands of his own by way of grossly mismanaging his country's economy.

      So before you romanticize this fucking idiot's "freedom fighting" you might want to take a closer look at the true results of his reign.

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    10. @TQP : A fantastic post, I don't think you'd find many people to disagree with anything you said there.

      @Pauline Mugabe : Can't both situations be terrible? Was Batista less of an evil dictator just because Castro is the one who cast him down? Was the situation in Tsarist Russia any less intolerable just because the Bolsheviks replaced them?

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    11. REWRITE (what happened to the delete button?)

      I am jumping in a discussion that I haven't followed closely.

      "My point simply was to try to understand how a minority can be so oblivious to a suffering majority around it and not expect blowback at some point."

      Just a few thoughts about South Africa. (I will write this one in french, I just can't find the exact right words in english.)

      La majorité noire a souffert pendant des années et un jour, enfin, ils ont pris le pouvoir. Ont-ils alors déchaîné leur fureur vengeresse sur les blancs?

      Non. Ils ont tenu la Commission Vérité. Et celui qui reconnaissait ses torts serait aministié. Juste ça, reconnaitre ses torts. Un blanc pourrait avoir littéralement fait cuire un noir sur un barbecue et il aurait été aministié simplement en reconnaissant ses torts.

      Francophones are blamed for supposedly living in the past. Yet the past shapes the present and one can't escape the past. Of course, I know that the anglos of today are not the anglos of yesterday. But one thing that I hate tough is being told that, for instance, francophones succeeded less because they lacked the anglos's protestant work ethic. One can explore those theories, but I think that the monopoly that british merchants had in the newly conquered colony outweighted greatly the protestant work ethic.

      Je crois que la seule reconnaissance du fait que les récriminations ne sont pas que braillage, plaintes enfantines et fausses excuses, mais qu'il y a bien eu des torts énormes envers les francophones calmerait bien des tensions. Et il serait bien facile de rajouter "et vous savez, c'était nos ancêtres, ce n'était pas nous."

      ***

      One more thought about anglos.

      I think that anglos hate to look back at our common history as much as we like to look back on it. The young anglo does not choose to be an anglo, he is raised in his family just like any child. He likes the country that he lives in just like any child. And someday, he learns the story of his beloved homeland, and he discovers that he is the bad guy. And he doesn't like it.

      (I know, I know, we, francos, have to recognize our faults too, bla, bla, bla. These were random thoughts on an idea that is still a work in progress...)

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    12. TQP -

      I am not even quite sure what we are arguing about anymore..I agree more or less with everything you said in your last post.

      You seem to have absolutely no problem slamming the PQ..I agree with you for the most part there. What I find interesting is how intolerant you are when it comes to equally deserving criticism of past english behavior..seems like you have a double standard.

      If anything the PQs treatment of the english minority here is far better than how the english minority treated other majorities in the past. As far as I can tell there are still many many english institutions here..english schools and english media outlets and so on. What really is so horrible right now concerning the treatment of anglophones? We are still free to speak english, work in english, go to school in english, etc. I agree that some of the PQs proposals have me worried but right now things are pretty good. In fact I would argue that an anglophone can live in Montreal much more easily in english than a francophone could in any part of Canada.

      Pauline Mugabe - I never romanticized Mugabe. He did and is doing a lot of horrible things. But once again what created Mugabe..I think the stubborness of the white minorities were a major reason why people revolted. They were sick and tired of seeing 10 percent of the population owning and controlling everything..can you really blame normal people for getting angry. Has it turned out well for them..no it obviously hasnt but why the heck couldnt the white minority just show a bit of sensitivity..it might have gone a long way.

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    13. "Pauline Mugabe - I never romanticized Mugabe. He did and is doing a lot of horrible things. But once again what created Mugabe..I think the stubborness of the white minorities were a major reason why people revolted. They were sick and tired of seeing 10 percent of the population owning and controlling everything..can you really blame normal people for getting angry. Has it turned out well for them..no it obviously hasnt but why the heck couldnt the white minority just show a bit of sensitivity..it might have gone a long way."

      I do understand your point on sensitivity. Personally, for instance, if I saw some teenagers rolling an old man in the streets, I wouldn't just walk by or say, call the cops further down the street hoping they would arrive before it's too late.

      No matter how busy our lives get, and how much a priority our family and circle of friends are to us, doing the right thing has to remain a priority in itself.

      However, I think the problem is with me for not putting it this way earlier - the fact that reclaiming the white farms of Zimbabwe did little for the black community and that Quebec has not had the level of progress it expect with its PQ-led policies shows that it's really all about government-player gain.

      The charges in Zimbabwe, like in Quebec are led by manipulative governments with little regard for the genuine well-being of the people. They tapped into the underlying concerns/anxieties/frustrations of the common populace and flamed them.

      Classic, really.

      If anything, it just speaks very poorly of the human condition more than any particular political party.

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    14. Complicated:
      You seem to have absolutely no problem slamming the PQ..I agree with you for the most part there. What I find interesting is how intolerant you are when it comes to equally deserving criticism of past english behavior..seems like you have a double standard.

      You are being intellectually dishonest: I repeatedly point out in my posts that the previous situation was untenable and unjust. Do I have to say it in every post? As per the PQ: I slam them because they deserve to be slammed while their policies are hell-bent on re-establishing the status quo with the roles reversed: if the status quo was bad (and, again, I'm pointing out: IT WAS!) then restoring it, albeit with a new boss, is still bad.

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    15. If anything the PQs treatment of the english minority here is far better than how the english minority treated other majorities in the past. As far as I can tell there are still many many english institutions here..english schools and english media outlets and so on. What really is so horrible right now concerning the treatment of anglophones? We are still free to speak english, work in english, go to school in english, etc. I agree that some of the PQs proposals have me worried but right now things are pretty good. In fact I would argue that an anglophone can live in Montreal much more easily in english than a francophone could in any part of Canada.

      Wow, back to your old ways, are you now? Make stuff up, pretend that it's true and then build your argument around it? First of all: neither you nor I were around when Quebec was last ruled by the English, so it's questionable at the very least to state that the English are being treated better than the French used to be. Only those who lived through both periods can tell, and even then with their own personal biases. Second: I'm not arguing that they are being worse, but that the policies of the Quebec Governments of the last 30-40 years are going way past the point where fairness is established and in the direction where the old power relationships are restored, just with the roles reversed. Third: you cannot legally work in English, unless you work in a company with less than 49 employees (and the PQ want to reduce this to 10) and you can't go to an English school if your parents are not English Canadians (even immigrants from the States must attend French schools). And, although it's treu (just about the only true thing you have said in this passage) that it's easier to live in English in Montreal (but not the rest of Quebec!) than it is to live in French in the rest of Canada, that doesn't cancel the fact that:
      1- the PQ's policies aim to make it as hard for the English to live in Quebec as it is for the French to live elsewhere in Canada (what happened to "two wrongs don't make a right?)
      2- In most of the rest of Canada, French isn't even the second most spoken language: it makes sense that, in order to create an alternative society where you can live in a language other than the local mainstream, a critical mass of speakers of the alternative language is necessary. 5000 French speakers in Calgary (population 1 million) do not make a critical mass. 250,000 French Speakers in Ottawa do.
      3- If you actually stopped transmitting for a second and concentrated on receiving information, you'd know that I advocate the formation of a bilingual province out of Montreal, the Outauais and Eastern Ontario, where the French are facing exactly the same problems as the English in Quebec. It is obvious that in areas of great linguistic uniformity it doesn't make sense to enforce bilingualism. Montreal, Gatineau and Ottawa are no such areas as they are predominantly bilingual, and I believe that it would save everyone a lot of grief to put them under the same administration with equal linguistic rights for both Anglophones and Francophones, leaving the rest of Anglophone Ontario and Francophone Quebec to their established unilingual normality. An exception could be made for Sudbury that, whilst territorially separated from the bulk of bilingual Canada, is heavily bilingual too: maybe give it special status in Ontario or make it an enclave. You see, I am for solving problems: I don't care much if the Francophone Quebec decides then to leave. It is their right if they choose to do so: I'm much more concerned about them taking a million prisoners with them and I don't think people should be forced to leave their home.

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    16. I advocate the formation of a bilingual province out of Montreal, the Outauais and Eastern Ontario, where the French are facing exactly the same problems as the English in Quebec.

      I'll re-phrase this for clarity:

      Given that Montreal and the Outauais are essentially bilingual and that the Francophones in Eastern Ontario are facing exactly the same problems as the English in Quebec, I advocate the formation of a bilingual province out of these regions.

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    17. YES, YES AND YES. This is the way to go and let the SRs of this world have their little piece of land to collect their welfare from a separate Quebec! Partition Party and soon please!!!!!!

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    18. TQP -

      When I go back and look at where you took offense in what I said..it was as soon as I voiced any criticism towards the english. I dislike the PQ and their policies..we agree quite a bit there. But I get annoyed when people have no problem dishing out to one side yet cant handle equal criticism of the other side. Yes neither of us were here in the 1950s and 60s but I have spoken to enough people about what happened here..read about it..you even admitted it yourself. So not sure why you are so sensitive when it comes to pointing out the mistreatment of the francophone majority in the past?

      It helps greatly for us to understand why the PQ exists and why there is always this solid 30-40 percent of the population that supports them. Its important to understand what happened in the past so that we are careful now in how we handle ourselves in the present and in the future.

      I am legally working in english right now in Montreal and I work for a company with more than 50 employees because its a federally protected company..there are quite a few here and there are many government departments also. Yes there are other companies where french is the main language but again not sure that it bothers me so much..we are in a majority french speaking province..the majority should be able to work more or less in their language shouldnt they or should it only be the anglos that get the good jobs?

      I like the partition idea and I think most anglophones love it. I just dont see how you could possibly expect francophones to accept losing Montreal and a significant chunk of southern Quebec without a huge fight. Montreal is the economic centre of Quebec..there is no way francophones will give this area up. So in effect what you are proposing will result in chaos..and possibly civil war. Do you realize this and are you prepared for it?

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    19. So not sure why you are so sensitive when it comes to pointing out the mistreatment of the francophone majority in the past?

      It might be because (again) I regularly open admit that that was unacceptable, and yet this point is never acknowledged. It might be, on a personal level, that I am an allophone that is more fluent in English than French and I find it at least odd that the Government tells me which one of the two WIDELY SPOKEN languages of Montreal I have to use to find work, especially considering that my line of work sees many more potential clients in the United States than in Canada (let alone Quebec), but that bilingualism, whilst culturally attractive, can be a pain in the backside when children born and raised in England have to attend a school where they have to learn math and history in a language they don't understand, and therefore fall behind their peers. And it might be that I'm not interested in working in a Federally Protected company, but I want to start my own business without fear of being shopped to the OQLF because I relay the content of a conversation with an american client in English, and that's because I'd like to pay my taxes and nothing more to a Government that is hell bent on putting me off trying to make something out of my life. And maybe because at no point I said that I'd never learn French, in fact it's easier for me than for an anglophone as my native language doesn't differ much at all from French, but while my French is a bit shaky I can do without having to talk business in that language, and without being berated for my accent or for telling off my kids in English. Is it really too much to ask, Mr. "The Company where I work has got an exemption from the law, so everyone is in the same position as me"?

      It helps greatly for us to understand why the PQ exists and why there is always this solid 30-40 percent of the population that supports them. Its important to understand what happened in the past so that we are careful now in how we handle ourselves in the present and in the future.

      Well, that obviously isn't working, given as it is that the PQ is hell bent on repeating the past with the boot on the other foot. On the other hand, I couldn't care less if Quebec decides to separate from Canada: it's within their rights. Scotland is trying to do the same thing, but it still welcomes people from all over the world (including England) to live and settle there. I have more of a problem with the policies being implemented than with Quebec's independence, and that problem is not going away until the policies change. It beggars belief that the policy of retaliation that has failed in every country where it has been adopted, is being embraced in a province that claims to be part of the civilised world.

      I am legally working in english right now in Montreal and I work for a company with more than 50 employees because its a federally protected company..there are quite a few here and there are many government departments also. Yes there are other companies where french is the main language but again not sure that it bothers me so much..we are in a majority french speaking province..the majority should be able to work more or less in their language shouldnt they or should it only be the anglos that get the good jobs?

      So, you are an anglophone lucky enough to work for a company that has an exemption from the law and you assume that if you had it good, then so does everyone else. I don't begrudge a family run business to run only in one language (although my uncle owns one such business and manages to run it in three different languages...), but I find the language of the clients to be more crucial to the success of the business. I don't care if watercooler conversations happen in French, I do care when money is talked about and misunderstandings happen, especially when it's MY money. And I do care if I get fined for writing "TQP's Milk" on a carton on my desk.

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    20. I like the partition idea and I think most anglophones love it. I just dont see how you could possibly expect francophones to accept losing Montreal and a significant chunk of southern Quebec without a huge fight. Montreal is the economic centre of Quebec..there is no way francophones will give this area up. So in effect what you are proposing will result in chaos..and possibly civil war. Do you realize this and are you prepared for it?

      Apart from the fact that Montreal wouldn't have outgrown Repentigny without the contribution of the English and the Allophones (that's by the by, but just to point out that Montreal is not and never has been the centre of Francophone culture ONLY in Quebec, Quebec City being much more important from this point of view, with Montreal being more of a World City and less of a French one), some of the most troubled areas (e.g. Street Gangs and Mafia problems) are in Montreal, as well as a large contingent of Welfare families, conversely, unilingual Quebec has Quebec City, Levis which has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Canada and one of the lowest crime rates too, Sherbrooke, the Hydro plants etc. So, I don't think the Francophones would be worse off. They'd have their possible future Country, they'd have the largest source of income (Hydro Quebec), they'd have its REAL cultural capital and greatest tourist attraction (Quebec City) and they'd have very few (and very old) anglophones or allophones within their midst. Oh, and Sherbrooke, which is where I originally wanted to move. And the ones left out, would still be in the only TRULY bilingual province of Canada, with equal rights and equal numbers as the anglos. As I said before, the only ones to lose out are the ones hell-bent on retaliation. The only chaos will ensue courtesy of the assholes who enjoy watching the world burn, but even the PQ hasn't got that many of them.

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    21. TQP -

      I dont think you seem to quite grasp why so many francophones want to protect their language via Bill 101. If Bill 101 never existed I can guarantee you that Montreal Island would be a lot more english than it is now. That was the whole point of the revolution back in the 1960s and the PQ coming into being. Its because Montreal was essentially run by the english..the french couldnt work in their own language. You pretend that you understand and sympathize but then you show an utter lack of comprehending the basic reasons for why Bill 101 came into place and accepting it. Bill 101 does not prevent you from talking to clients in english does it? It just ensures that within the company here in Montreal that the main working language is french just like it would be in France. There is an ocean of english speaking people surrounding Quebec..if the government just sits back and does not protect the French language it will disappear..guaranteed. I could care less about someone from England having to send their kids to french school..if they moved to France would they be entitled to send their kids to english school..only if they sent them to a private school just like here. People moving here from England or elsewhere should know that this is a french majority province and if they dont then they havent done their homework. And if they really are hell bent on living in english then there is the entire rest of Canada they can immigrate to.


      I agree with you on most of what you say about the PQ..I know their policies will hurt the economy. But they are representing the 30 percent hardcore seperatist francophone population that still does not trust the anglophones based on what happened in the past and even in the present via some nasty comments still appearing in the english media. How do you think your partition proposal sounds to them? You dont need to convince me about the merits of partition nor any other anglophone..of course we would all love it. Its a win-win for us and lose-lose for the french..we keep the economic engine of Quebec and they keep everything else. How could they not be insulted by that and how you could be so naive in thinking this partition idea is an attainable scenario.

      But again as I have mentioned over and over..what is the chance that a referendum will even take place over the next 5 years or more..pretty slim. And even if there is one..the chance of them voting to seperate..pretty slim. So this whole partition talk is really a moot point..it will only serve as ammunition by the french radicals to further show how treacherous the anglophones are..guaranteed. But keep on dreaming in technicolor..




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    22. By complicated's twisted reasoning, Jews should be gassing and incinerating Germans now because of what happened during the Second World War...

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    23. Durham - Oh here we go again..lets bring out all the WW2 analogies even if they make absolutely no sense to what I wrote. But it adds a nice dramatic touch.

      You guys just refuse to accept that the francophones have a valid right to protect their language which was more or less dying back in the 60s here in Montreal. Bill 101 saved it and helped equalize the playing field between the english and the french. I think its done its job and should be left alone..I dont agree with the PQ making it any stronger.

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    24. Talking to complicated is like talking to my kids about the virtues of vegetables when they want cake...

      What a load of bullshit! When Bill 101 came into being half the population of Montreal WAS Anglophone, as it had been for its entire history up until that point: it is one thing to give equal recognition to one language that was unfairly suppressed, another to decide that one of the two EQUALLY DIFFUSED languages in a city has to be used instead of the other in every walk of life. If today's mothertongue for more than half the population of Montreal is French is down not to natural evolution of language but to social engineering, which is by definition wrong. Montreal is NOT French, it is NOT in France and it has never been a French City. It is in a majority French Province, but the reality in the city is and always has been different. What the main working language is within Montreal should be down to individual employers, and not the State: you live in a bilingual country and public institutions should reflect that, then it's down to individual businesses to make that choice. What's so bloody hard to understand? Montreal is not the same as the rest of Quebec where the only English spoken is spoken as a second language. And, while we're at it: if you move to Italy and your language is French or German, there are regions where you can go to PUBLIC French and German schools, and have bilingual Italian-French and Italian-German roadsigns and all that paraphernalia that you can find, for example, in Ottawa (which is as bilingual as Montreal). If a country that's far up shit-creek like Italy can do this, why can't Quebec, at least where there is a substantial Anglophone presence? As per moving to France: there may not be English schools in France, but I wouldn't be fined for speaking English at work (it's inconvenient, not illegal!), in fact, right now, it's a damn sight easier to settle in France than it is in Montreal (where, incidentally, I learnt my first few words in English back in 1976).

      Finally, don't give me that crap about being surrounded by a "sea of English": how many languages disappeared from the former Soviet Union when they made Russian their official language? And yet they're still there... even Ukraine that was colonised by Russia for centuries still retained their old language. Languages don't die when they're "surrounded", they die when their speakers die out or leave: as it stands, the financial crisis in Quebec is sending more people to the RoC and contributing more to the disappearance of French than any action by the English since the colonisation of Nouvelle France. Ironically, the fallback of Bill 101 is part of the reason for this.

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    25. I just thought I'd add, before someone starts splitting hair, that when I say that Montreal "has never been a French City", I mean for the last two and a half centuries... but then again, before then it wasn't really a city, rather: a settlement.

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    26. Montreal was always a predominantly french city other than a short period in the mid 1800s. Its just that the english minority generally had most of the prominent jobs and positions hence clout so french was marginalized. French was marginalized right into the 1960s and hence the birth of the PQ and the seperatists. Its clear that Montreal would be much more english than it already is without Bill 101. Obviously inconvenient to anglophones but a big boost for francophones.

      Montreal is clearly the economic centre of Quebec hence the importance of it to the majority francophone population is huge. Do you really expect them to just sit back and watch the largest city in the province turned into an anglo island? Your whole notion of just letting things be is very convenient from an anglophonespoint of view..the reality is that the minority anglophone population abused their power here and treated the french minority like second class citizens for decades hence the blowback..no surprise there. Its only been 35 year since Bill 101 has been in place..dont expect francophones to believe that all is well now and we should just go back to the way it was.

      Its clear from your tone and frequent jabs that you have little respect for the francophone population here. With such an attitude you arent going to convince francophones that the anglos have changed their ways..I wouldnt and I am an anglo. The nastiness of many of the comments here and in the englis media is going to convince francophones even more not to trust the anglophone population. It will backfire and in the end probably create enough tension to create another anglo exodus.

      There is still plenty of english being spoken in workplace all over Montreal. Do you really think the language cops can properly enforce this? Once again you are dramatizing..I hear english all the time in downtown Montreal..in stores..in places of business. I know many people who supposedly work in Bill 101 affected companies and where english is spoken. France is not under threat of losing its native language..there is a big difference.

      The english minority here is treated quite well really. We have two english universities for about 700,000 anglophones that receive a lot of funding from all Quebecers. Most of the students who go to McGill dont even stay here..the PQ could easily argue that perhaps less funding should go to this institution. We have english school boards, english media, english hospitals and so on. Go ask any francophone what its like to get served in french anywhere else in Canada? Granted there is effort made in some cities to give french services..there are francophones schools and a few colleges but overall pretty tough. Do you think a francophone could work in french very easily in the rest of Canada? Still a lot easier for an anglophone to work in english here in Montreal even with Bill 101. Francophones use this argument over and over and they have a point.

      I think too many anglophones are used to the world revolving around them. They go anywhere in the world and generally are served in their native language. English is the business language of the world so there is a certain arrogance in expecting to have this right all the time. We need to put ourselves in the shoes of non-anglophones.

      Your partition idea shows an utter lack of realism in my opinion. Its very naive for you to think partition has a chance of happening..its a foolish dream by the die-hard anglos who just wont accept that english is no longer the dominant language in Montreal. Partition if really pushed would result in chaos and civil war..the Quebecois will never accept that..you are just pouring more oil on the fire. In fact many of the statements made by anglos on this forum are just keeping the fire raging between the two sides.

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    27. Montreal was always a predominantly french city other than a short period in the mid 1800s. Its just that the english minority generally had most of the prominent jobs and positions hence clout so french was marginalized

      Just how small a minority has to be in order to legitimately suppress its language? The 38% anglophones of 1871? The 25% of the 1940's? The 24% who, according to the 2006 census, uses English as their main home language? Again, you're only listening to your own preconception: the suppression of French by the British was illegittimate, so is the current suppression of English by the Francophones: Montreal, I repeat, HAS NEVER BEEN A FRENCH CITY because the presence of a language other than French has always been significant enough to warrant that. When French has never been spoken as a first language by more than two thirds of the population, that ought to put the language spoken by a quarter of the population on a legal equal footing, ask the Francophones of New Brunswick!

      French was marginalized right into the 1960s and hence the birth of the PQ and the seperatists. Its clear that Montreal would be much more english than it already is without Bill 101. Obviously inconvenient to anglophones but a big boost for francophones.

      I don't see any problem with the PQ wanting to legitimise their language in the eyes of the law, nor with their desire for independence. I do have a problem with the second part of the statement as it is a non-sequitur: Bill 101 is a law that is used to suppress the language spoken firstly by a quarter of the population of Montreal. There hasn't even been a decade of official bilingualism to even argue that the bilingual provisions didn't work. You seem to argue that because it's a minority that's been shafted, that's tough. That says a lot about you, really.

      Montreal is clearly the economic centre of Quebec hence the importance of it to the majority francophone population is huge. Do you really expect them to just sit back and watch the largest city in the province turned into an anglo island?

      No, which is why I never proposed that: again, you lie about what I say (not even cryptically) and make a counter-argument. Pretty poor argumentation, really. First of all, Montreal is most important to Montrealers, second it is (currently) Quebec's largest economic centre. That is: vital to Francophones, Anglophones, Allophones and Natives. I'm sure that the Anglophones off-island would suffer if Montreal decided to raise the drawbridge. But that is not what I'm suggesting either: what I'm suggesting is that Montreal becomes administratively independent from Quebec, bilingual (NOT ANGLOPHONE) and part of a bilingual province. If people can live in Hull and work in Ottawa to get cheap childcare and Ontario wages, I don't see off-island Montrealers suffering that much. As per the rest of Quebec: yes, they lose the taxes from Montreal. They also lose the social spending absorbed by Montreal's social disaster areas, the cost of a separate police force (already in place) and a hockey team founded and funded by anglophones (after all, they are the Montreal Canadiens, no? No reference to Quebec in their name).

      Continues...

      Delete
    28. Your whole notion of just letting things be is very convenient from an anglophonespoint of view..the reality is that the minority anglophone population abused their power here and treated the french minority like second class citizens for decades hence the blowback..no surprise there. Its only been 35 year since Bill 101 has been in place..dont expect francophones to believe that all is well now and we should just go back to the way it was.

      I don't expect it, that's why I'm not suggesting it. Learn to understand what you read. As per Bill 101: how long was Quebec in general and Montreal in particular allowed to be officially bilingual? Not as long as Bill 101 has been around, that's how long. Shouldn't we have tried that first for long enough? Although it's understandable that those who got kicked for a long time do some kicking of their own, it doesn't make it right, fair or legitimate.

      Its clear from your tone and frequent jabs that you have little respect for the francophone population here. With such an attitude you arent going to convince francophones that the anglos have changed their ways..I wouldnt and I am an anglo. The nastiness of many of the comments here and in the englis media is going to convince francophones even more not to trust the anglophone population. It will backfire and in the end probably create enough tension to create another anglo exodus.

      No, but I have little respect for that part of the population, including anglos like you, that hold the view that two wrongs make a right. That's why I will never respect Bill 101, nor its PQ supporters, nor you, as you're obviously suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. I’m not after the support of the people who are against a fair resolution, I am after the support of the majority of the population who are in its favour: those who vote PQ out of ideology are not supporters I seek as they are never going to be won over.

      There is still plenty of english being spoken in workplace all over Montreal. Do you really think the language cops can properly enforce this? Once again you are dramatizing..I hear english all the time in downtown Montreal..in stores..in places of business. I know many people who supposedly work in Bill 101 affected companies and where english is spoken. France is not under threat of losing its native language..there is a big difference.

      Sure there is, but that doesn't make it legal: I like watching my back from the law even less than watching my back from criminals, maybe in BC where you come from the cops are so bent that it doesn't matter, you might as well not give a damn, but since the power of the State to fuck your life up is near-endless, I'd rater see my rights upheld in black and white, thank you very much. As per language in France not being under threat, explain to me why is it a good thing to keep alive a language that a lot of people, including many native speakers of that language, want to speak. It's one of life's mysteries that for some reason we have to try and stop any change from happening, whether it's climate, culture, trade, even using oil... it's as if the acme of human development has been achieved and letting things change is paramount to the end of civilisation. GROW UP! It's NOT!


      Continues...

      Delete
    29. The english minority here is treated quite well really. We have two english universities for about 700,000 anglophones that receive a lot of funding from all Quebecers. Most of the students who go to McGill dont even stay here..the PQ could easily argue that perhaps less funding should go to this institution. We have english school boards, english media, english hospitals and so on. Go ask any francophone what its like to get served in french anywhere else in Canada? Granted there is effort made in some cities to give french services..there are francophones schools and a few colleges but overall pretty tough. Do you think a francophone could work in french very easily in the rest of Canada? Still a lot easier for an anglophone to work in english here in Montreal even with Bill 101. Francophones use this argument over and over and they have a point.

      You mean the funding hasn’t been withdrawn yet (must be because most of McGill students are from the Roc?). Listen, it’s all very well and good to make such claims that the Old Order is not being dismantled quickly enough, but it’s still being dismantled, all the while you have a captive 1 million plus Quebeckers who don’t get a say over its dismantling. As per the rest of Canada: the situation in Ontario, with 400,000 franco-ontarian is pretty good for those who live in and around Ottawa, and disgraceful for everyone else, except, maybe, Sudbury. However, outside Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick (which is, however, officially bilingual), there just aren’t enough francophones to justify it. They may well use the argument to justify the PQ’s action, but then they just give MORE legitimacy to the very situation they stygmatise, after all, if you can do it to a million people in Montreal, you can do it to five thousand in Calgary…

      I think too many anglophones are used to the world revolving around them. They go anywhere in the world and generally are served in their native language. English is the business language of the world so there is a certain arrogance in expecting to have this right all the time. We need to put ourselves in the shoes of non-anglophones.

      That is certainly true, but, again explain to me why it’s wrong. Discounting my position as an allophone, I’ve yet to meet an anglophone colleague, even among those who can and do speak foreign languages, who’s not invited to speak in english in a business context, in Europe, in the Middle East, in Asia (and that’s just among the clients of present and former employers). So, it seems that a lot of the world is keen on something resembling a universal language, even though most of the world is NOT anglophone. All in all a weak point and a cheap shot.

      Continue…

      Delete
    30. Your partition idea shows an utter lack of realism in my opinion. Its very naive for you to think partition has a chance of happening..its a foolish dream by the die-hard anglos who just wont accept that english is no longer the dominant language in Montreal. Partition if really pushed would result in chaos and civil war..the Quebecois will never accept that..you are just pouring more oil on the fire. In fact many of the statements made by anglos on this forum are just keeping the fire raging between the two sides.

      I’m sure someone seventy years ago said that the Quebec’s Parliament would never sit in French. This is, by far THE. MOST. STUPID. STATEMENT. You have made. You seem to use a disproportionate amount of malice throughout your “argument” by twisting my words or lying outright about my statements to make a shaky case. No-one wants to see English as the predominant language in Montreal (or Ottawa, for what matters!), there is a difference between being allowed (or, rather, not being suppressed) and being dominant, WE ARE AFTER THE FORMER, NOT THE LATTER. As per the accusation of stoking the fire: it will only stoke the fire if, like you, those opposing it are malicious and dishonest about their true intentions. As things stand, it’s a win-win situation for everyone, other than those who are hell-bent on kicking a minority. And, given that the majority of Montreal’s population is BILINGUAL and proudly so, it’s a matter of the Province kicking the City, and nothing to do with righting a historical wrong, that’s since swung so far the other way that it’s wrong again. So, I’m sorry if my argument doesn’t win you over, but I’m better off with all the weasels facing me rather than behind me.

      Delete
  11. I just made an important Tweet, I wish more people followed me!!!
    (Crass self-promotion)

    ReplyDelete
  12. Canada’s Minister of Official Languages, James Moore, Admits Official Bilingualism isn’t Working

    http://cornwallfreenews.com/2012/09/canadas-minister-of-official-languages-james-moore-admits-official-bilingualism-isnt-working-exclusive/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There's precious little in terms of evidence that James Moore actually admitted this. This sad excuse of a newspaper is just committed to the idea that the desire for unilingual local anglophones to get jobs trumps the desire of local Francophones to have access to services in their language. "My need trumps your ability", they say. Kind of the same as people who complain about immigrants coming over and "stealing jobs".

      Delete
    2. "This sad excuse of a newspaper is just committed to the idea that the desire for unilingual local anglophones to get jobs trumps the desire of local Francophones to have access to services in their language."

      That sounds familiar - lets change a few words shall we?

      This sad excuse of a province is just committed to the idea that the desire for unilingual local Francophones to get jobs trumps the desire of local Angloophones to have access to services in their language.

      Delete
  13. "There is an onus on the anglos also to accept their responsibility from the past and even some of the rude statements they are making now."


    Its very easy for complicated to lump all anglos, even though English speakers were a diverse group. Such as the Catholic Irish that were antagonistic to the WASP establishment. Many Irish catholics as well as some anglos participated in the 1837 Quebec rebellion against the british. Yet complicated has the gall the makes the above statement that he does. Also I guess it does Not matter that the majority of the Irish were assimilated to the Francophone majority even prior to bill 101?

    I also read about a French Canadian administrator of a Quebec company that purchased a textiles plant in Ontario in 1912 and brought in French Canadians from Quebec to Welland to work instead of hiring the locals. So its not like it was only a one way treatment of Francophones by anglos. It was deliberate to create a Francophone community as per what I read. I can't remember the name of the administrator but I think his profile was in wikipedia.

    http://www.heritagetrust.on.ca/getattachment/Programs/Commemoration/Provincial-Plaque-Program/Plaque-of-the-Month/French-Community-in-Welland-ENG.pdf.aspx

    ReplyDelete
  14. The onus is on the anglos to do what? Bend over and silently take it from the ethnocentric, racist, nationalists? No thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  15. FROM ED BROWN
    I have never said there was no problem before 1060. Ifr there was we ere not aware of it and the french I knew showed no indication of discontent. This is a fact I know, I was there. I were busy woring for sixty cents an hour. Helping my dad build the house we lived in and working with scouts and cubs. . If any it was the english jealous of the francs because they could get welfare through the church. For the english welfare was unheard of. We were told get a job, there's lots of them. The law of the protestant school board said we had to attend until we were sixteen. I worked three jobs to pay for my baby son being in hospital for eighteen months. If I was French the Church would have paid it. Incidentally when you say I acccuse Rene Levesque of making trouble in my post today , you are a liar. I ended my post saying the quiet revolution began to form in the mind of Rene Levesque and nothing else. I somehow expected better drom you that the trolls but they don't bother me because I havenn't read anything from S.R. or the repetative complicated. I won't waste my time reading yours either. Ed

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, I'm sorry I offended you Ed. For what it's worth, your memories made for a fantastic read as not many of us remember what was going on back then.

      I'm also sorry for all the hardships you've had to go through, then and now (the story of your grandson is particularly heart-wrenching). I should certainly learn to be more respectful when I voice my disagreement with you.

      I'd just like to say a few things. A thing to remember withh the Catholic Church, is that the Catholic Church did not grow money on trees. They collected it from the people as the tithe, which was 10% of gross income. It was often a source of hardship to provide this tithe, but it did pay for services such as hospitals. My late great-grand-mother, for instance, lost her parents when she was very young and the oldest sister had to take care of the rest of them in the family house. When they could not afford to pay the tithe, the people from the Church came and took their only cow. Or so she the story goes.

      As to how I said that you accuse Rene Levesque of making trouble, this is what I was referring to : "Peace reigned until the election of Jean Lesage and a Liberal government. They took control of education and the welfare system and made it a provincial responsibility. They pumped millions into education. The quiet revolution began to form in the mind of the education minister, a man called Rene Levesque."

      It certainly does imply, to me, that the peace was broken by Lesage and Levesque, or at least that they started the process. I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth that you didn't mean.

      Delete
  16. FROM ED BROWN
    Editor, Sorry about the many typos. Tommorrow I get my new keyboard. Ten of the letters are missing and
    keys stick. Ed

    ReplyDelete
  17. Merci Mr. Brown pour votre témoignage sur Montréal. Je savais qu'il existait une ségrégation religieuse à l'époque mais je ne l'imaginais pas aussi prononcée que celle dont vous faîtes le portrait. Je suis bien heureux qu'elle soit disparue.

    Vous semblez affirmer que la vie à Montréal était beaucoup mieux comme anglais avant l'élection du Parti Libéral mais votre témoignage s'arrête là... Qu'est-ce qui a changé exactement? En quoi cela a-t-il changé le cours de votre vie?



    ReplyDelete
  18. OMG - What good does this do, lamenting all the things that happened so long ago? Interesting to a point but what is the penalty period supposed to be? 40 years? 50 years? 100 yrs? Am I to keep paying for what my great-great grandfather is supposed to have done when he started a business in Quebec? (my grandfather immigrated from Scotland to Ottawa - not to Quebec)What would be the payment? Would $1,000.00 to the EI fund pay this off? What about 50.00 to the PQ party? Would this do it? We have to go on from here and now - if we keep living in the past this problem will last forever and unfortunately history revision is continuing in our Quebec schools and teaching the Francophones that the Anglophones did this on purpose so it's no wonder the younger kids believe this is so until they start using the internet and realize how small their world is. Without technology I'm sure we would have been in all out civil war by now. So now what? These two divides seemed to be destined to never understand one another and that's why we need partition of this province so at least some of us can move ahead in the real world and not keep re-living the past like an old episode of Star Trek!

    ReplyDelete
  19. Pauline Marois intent on scuttling Canada’s European free-trade deal

    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/09/19/john-ivison-pauline-marois-intent-on-scuttling-canadas-european-free-trade-deal/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am starting to think that whatever the govt would do, she would oppose. At least she is consistent. in foolishness, but consistent nevertheless. Way to go Pauline.

      Delete
    2. Forgot this:

      "Trying to scupper the deal doesn’t even make sense for sovereigntists [...] since the EU is not likely to be interested in negotiating a separate free trade agreement with Quebec, independent or not."

      Delete
    3. Ils n'auront pas le choix sinon nous leur coupons le jus...Clank!

      Delete
  20. Replies
    1. Don't feed the troll,Don't feed the troll...

      Delete
    2. SuperRacist reads like a parody of a separatist. Probably a federalist plant designed to smear seps.

      Delete
    3. Vous devriez changer votre pseudo...JJ n'est plus

      Delete
  21. FROM ED BROWN
    Yannick, I owe you an apology. I was tickrd off feeling what's the use of writing if people will misconstrue your words to make their point. I had no right to insult you. Here's a quote from 1936, Jesse Owens. "When your in a race you don't look left or right to see how the other guy is doing. You pound away with your heart pumping and hope yopu don't get close enough to trip over each other." This tells a lot about both sides when I was young. We were competing with each other not just francophones. It wasn't a rafting expedition with all going the same way.
    The changes in our lives with men returning from overseas and immigration at a high of starving people from Europe. We had these to take care of without welfare. We all helped each other.
    About the Catholic Church. They had thousands of nuns and sisters living in cells making things for the Church to sell. They used nuns and brothers to teach in schools for which they paid basically room and board and collected the same price from the government as the protestant schoolboard who had to pay their teachers union salaries.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Awwwww, so precious.

    Lisee gets Int'l Affairs, responsible for the Montreal region, aaaaaaand... wait for it... the one in charge of making peace with the anglo community. Good gawd Pauline, that's exactly what my momma used to say: why screw up once when you can screw up three times?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What a joke - make peace meaning "bend over again" while we remove more rights - "but we'll tell you it's for your own good". The nerve of these politicians - I guess they think we're really stupid and totally gullible. Please, Please Partition Party quickly!

      Delete
    2. Yes time for a Partition Party and quick! Don't waste any time, especially since you're good some good press with Richard Henry Bain right now!

      Delete
    3. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

      Delete
    4. Careful S.R! I'm not associating Cutie and TQP to Bain. I don't think that partition is a viable option but those people are entitled to their opinions.

      However, today, I'm sure a lot of people heard about this idea of partition for the first time and it happened through the words of Bain. Having this political opinion associated with a killer is not a good start.

      Delete
    5. Bain à marqué un but dans le filet de son équipe...Quel détraqué.Ce sont les idées que j'ai associé pas les individus.

      Delete
    6. Guillaume, why partition is not a viable solution?

      Delete
    7. TS,pour l'instant vous êtes incapables de remettre "canadian flag" à l'assemblée Nationale.Commencez par des projets à votre mesure et revenez-nous ensuite avec du concret.

      Delete
    8. Yes, why is it not if it is done legally and democratically, what is wrong with that? Everyone gets what they want including the separatists so what would be the bitch. The people make the choice of where they want to live - a new Quebec or stay within Canada. 75 Federal Electoral Districts, a clear question, a clear majority (under the Clarity Act). Why would this not work? Someone please please tell me why this is not a viable solution to our never ending problems with people like SR? Let him have his little piece of the world and leave the rest of us alone. Everyone would be happy with this solution - tell me who would not be?

      Delete
    9. S.R, I was actually asking Guillaume. But since you took the time to reply, please note that you did not actually answer my question. You are welcome to, though. Please bring reasoned arguments.

      Delete
    10. Et si vous arrêtiez de nous demander notre avis et agissiez,qu'en pensez-vous?

      Delete
    11. If you guys think that separatists are dreamers, I don't know how we should call you.

      First of all, for partition to happen, it has to be the will of the majority. Even if, say, Westmount or Gatineau want to partition from Quebec, the provincial government would block that. A "district" doesn't have the power to separate himself from his own state.

      I guess the first thing, you should do is create a party, because partition ain't going to happen under a PQ, CAQ or Liberal government. Then this party would need to elect 63+ MPs or else this project of partition would be blocked in the national assembly.

      Now who will vote for the Partition Party of Quebec (PPQ lol)?

      Francophones? No...

      Allophones? Maybe a small portion? Most of them fled their land to seek peace and avoid conflicts. Would partition generate a quiet and peaceful climate? I don't think so...

      Anglophones? Probably but clearly not the all of them. They'd probably be as divided on this question, as Francophones are with Quebec sovereignty. Also, I often hear Anglophones saying that they don't want a referendum because it would create turbulence. So, you would like to avoid the tensions of a referendum but you would basically re-create the same tensions with your project of partition. Where is the logic in this?

      On paper, I guess partition works and it seems democratic. However, I don't see it happening

      Good luck because you will need it. You've clearly got a long way to go. I'm not sure if prisoners can vote, but if they can, you've got at least one vote.

      Delete
    12. Methinks your reasoning is based on the short term: right now that's certainly how it would go. However, give it say 20 years of growing propaganda and it might make sense to a lot more people.

      Incidentally, I don't think Quebec separatists are dreamers: it is a legitimate ambition. It's the means they are using to fulfill that ambition that I find questionable.

      Delete
    13. I must have missed this pearl:
      However, today, I'm sure a lot of people heard about this idea of partition for the first time and it happened through the words of Bain. Having this political opinion associated with a killer is not a good start.

      A bit like emancipation of the Francophones being associated with the murderers of the FLQ, you mean? Also, I think you'll find that I advocated partition in the terms I outlined for the umpteenth time above long before Mr Bain decided to go postal.

      Delete
  23. S.R Wednesday, September 19, 2012 7:37:00 PM EDT

    Mais diantre qu'avez-vous mis dans votre thé Cuntie...Heu..Cutie?

    ____

    Alright Editor, I think we're finally due for a ban of this little pest.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Vos propos récents à propos de moi:

    "sniveling little ass-clownDamn" et "worthless, despicable piece of shit"

    Et vous donnez des leçons de politesse pour une erreur de typo?

    Retournez dans votre tipi Géronimo,il se fait tard

    ReplyDelete
  25. Another one of my out-of-topic comments.

    Surprise of surprise, I found the link to this article from National Post on Vigile.net. This is a good read for those who advocate that Quebec be separated from Canada, be it by voluntary separation or expulsion. Well, Mississauga Guy, that certainly includes you. I stand on my opinion that the separation of Quebec from Canada is a very bad thing for Canada, and Canada will not be the same. For those who think that the RoC can keep rolling as it is now without Quebec, this article provides good counter-argument.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Editor,

      I tried to insert a hyperlink, but it obviously did not appear. What happened? Also, I can not delete my previous post.

      The link to the article from National Post is here:

      http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/09/07/j-l-granatstein-how-a-separate-quebec-would-transform-our-defence-policy/

      Delete
  26. To the Editor: How come SR is allowed to call me a vile name but when I call him an equally vile name my response is taken out and his remains?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well checking back I see you removed his remark also but he has to go - truly - he is getting worse and worse.

      Delete
  27. FROM ED BROWN
    Cutie, I think he keeps S.R. for comic relief. Ed
    He has got to the point where he is only here to be insulting. When he makes fun of our flag or the Queen I find it aggravating so I read absolutely nothing he writes in french ot english. The same with complicated. He seems to just oppose anything anybody says just for the sake of opposition. The doctor told me, with my heart no stress. So, no S.R., no Complicated =
    no stress, just good chat. Ed

    ReplyDelete
  28. I agree Ed but SR goes too far at times and I should be allowed to retaliate when he calls me names. I don't even know the guy and I hate him = sad isn't it? The problem is he gives even the separatists a bad name (if that's possible) and we have to hope he doesn't represent the majority of them with his bigotry, ignorance and hostility. I have a good friend that is a separatist and we have a great time together we just don't discuss politics but we have many other things in common. I don't even know if she is a separatist any more because she told me that about 7 or 8 years ago and I never brought it up again. Great lady and a translator no less and that how she earns her living = so perhaps she is no longer one. Wouldn't matter is this area and by the way, her husband is a federalist so they cancel each others' vote out during any referendum anyway.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think S.R. is allowed to stay to make us feel better about ourselves. Complicated is a practitioner of student politics who'll disappear as quickly as he appeared when he gets bored or when something happens in the Middle East, so he can be up to speed with what his dinner party friends want to talk about.

      Delete
  29. "In order to free himself from colonization, the colonized must start with his oppression, the deficiencies of his group. In order that his liberation may be complete, he must free himself from those inevitable conditions of his struggle. A nationalist, because he had to fight for the emergence and dignity of his nation, he must conquer himself and be free in relation to that nation. He can, of course, assert himself as a nationalist. But it is indispensable that he have a free choice and not that he exist only through his nation. He must conquer himself and be free in relation to the religion of his group, which he can retain or reject, but he must stop existing only through it. The same applies to the past, tradition, ethic characteristics. Finally, he must cease defining himself through the categories of colonizers. The same holds true of what more subtly characterizes him in a negative way."

    Alebert Memnmi - "The Colonizer and the Colonized"

    ReplyDelete
  30. FROM ED BROWN
    ADSKI Memmi makes sense but your quote is relative. In our case which of us is the colonozed and who is the colonizer? Ed

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To me, this quote applies to the 32% of the population which voted the PQ in the last election.

      Delete
  31. Marois annule la hausse des droits de scolarité et ferme Gentilly-2

    http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/politique-quebecoise/201209/20/01-4575993-marois-annule-la-hausse-des-droits-de-scolarite-et-ferme-gentilly-2.php

    Et ByeBye les gas de shit...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Exactly why people like you MUST be deprived of your right to vote. Money doesn't grow on trees S.R, and it's people like you, your parents, all the red squares and pseudo-=socialists who deserve to starve and struggle.

      We'll see what tune you're singing when you have to choose between paying for rent and paying for food and having to stand in line for subsidized food.

      But, like others on this blog have pointed out (and it's pretty clear), you're just a 19-year-old little dumbass who doesn't have the slightest idea of the concepts of give-and-take or cause-and-effect.

      Sorry, I fed the troll folks, but I'm only really giving him a few final morsels before he spends hours standing in line with other separatist primates waiting for a measly loaf of bread.

      Delete
    2. I think S.R is much older than that - maybe 40-something? His input is very puerile, though.

      Delete
    3. There was a good article in National Geographic magazine about Quebec in 1997. It was titled "Quebec's Quandary". Fifteen years have passed but the article is still pertinent. It noted the decline of Montreal's economy because of language laws and the specter of separation, and showed a photo of people eating in a soup kitchen. No doubt there is more of that to come.

      Delete
  32. Editor: Just for shits and giggles can you make tomorrows story a simple children's rhyme about something silly to show how just about any words inspire SR to a tirade on canada and Canadian's?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ANY words? Then how about...

      "First in war
      First in peace
      First in the hearts of their fans as well as the National League"?

      Delete
    2. For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, the franchise formerly known as the Montreal Expos will be in the postseaskn for the first time in 31 years. For their new home, it will be the first postseason play in 79 years. It's not yet a division title but hopefully that will come next week.

      When the Giants won their first world championship in San Francisco, they travelled with the Commissioner's Trophy to New York and visited the former site of the Polo Grounds. I don't think the Nats would do this, but I would have no objection if they were to do the same and visit Olympic Stadium after a ticker tape parade down Pennsylvania Avenue.

      Delete
  33. I made peace with the student demand already. It is good that the tuition hike is scrapped. I am happy with that decision. I hope that the PQ government is willing to be even more progressive and eliminate tuition fees for all levels of public education altogether. Of course, on top of the elimination of the tuition fees, the enhanced loans and bursaries program as proposed by the Liberal government needs to be carried on.

    I can not believe I say this, but way to go Pauline!

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    Replies
    1. Troy,

      What else should be "free" that is not currently and how will it be paid for and by whom?

      Delete
    2. John,

      Guaranteed minimal salary sounds like a good idea for a starter. What do you think?

      For revenue, go ahead with the tax increase for those families making $130k or more*. Restructuring of the royalties from resources-based companies. End all the tax holidays and incentives currently enjoyed by major companies (aerospace and pharmaceuticals in particular). Renegotiate Hydro Quebec's pricing with U.S. states. Be more aggressive on Plan Nord. Be more aggressive on shale gas and on Old Harry. And of course, as Ms. Marois already stated that she would ask for more power from the Feds, she also needs to renegotiate transfer and equalization payments.

      *I am glad I dodged the bullet on that one.

      Delete
    3. NO MORE POWER TO QUEBEC = STOP EXPECTING THE REST OF CANADA TO PAY FOR OUR UNSUSTAINABLE SOCIAL PROGRAMS - $7.00 A DAY DAY CARE FOR PEOPLE EARNING 25,000 OR LESS A YEAR ONLY - STOP LETTING THESE KIDS STAY IN SCHOOL FOREVER TO LEARN HOW TO PAINT CANVAS ON MY DIME -I already paid for my kids to go through school, paid for their day care when I worked away from home - why do I have to keep on paying for other peoples' kids to keep going to school as long as they want and they don't have to work to pay for it! Are we gone insane here? How can we attract new business with Bill 101 and making them pay higher taxes here than elsewhere in Canada = The ROC IS SICK AND TIRED OF PAYING FOR ALL THE BUMS THAT WANT TO LIVE HERE - WE HAVE TO CHANGE OUR ATTITUDE OR WE WILL BE KICKED OUT OF CANADA AND GO BANKRUPT EVEN FASTER THAN WE ARE NOW! WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ASKING CANADA FOR EVEN MORE MONEY FOR THESE BUMS IS
      EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS.

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  34. Troy - Was it you that was sending your kid(s) to school here in Quebec but aren't living here? I know there was some contributor doing that but not sure who it was. Well, someone has to pay for these wonderful things in life and I guess the taxpayer(s) are going to be stuck again - Where is that damn partition party that I want so badly. I have no more money to give to these kids, soup kitchens and apartments for this generation that don't believe in a our way of life but want to live like Russia used to and then found it didn't work. Talk about socialists - we have nothing on them.

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  35. FFROM ED BROWN
    TROY The one thing you and. Pauline are forgetting is the losers, the universities. They need the money. Did you hear her say anything about making up this deficit to them or should we let our institutions decline like everything else the PQ does.
    Minister Lisee says scrapping the tuition raise is in no way meant as a slap in the face to the english. Why does he think we would take it that way? Does anyone get that? Ed

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    Replies
    1. Ed,

      I do not worry too much for McGill and Concordia. They will be able (as they are) to find their own fundings. From endowments, research fundings, RoC and international students, they do have their ways. Of course, I expect that the government does not decrease its support as the tuition freeze is its own idea, and in the case of tuition fees elimination the government will make up the universities' deficit.

      Delete
    2. With more tax money from me Troy? Sorry, I barely make it now. No more tax increases for these kids to attend school forever.

      Delete
  36. This debate is hard, I am torn. I am an anglo, but I love Quebec. I do not hate the french,I respect even dare say love them in a strange way, I love their "joie de vivre" but yet I cannot help but feel foreign to them. I must admit that the language laws, despite the argument of its good intentions, seem to have singled out a group, and I am a member of this group, and at times I feel angry and frustrated at times.

    I just wish that none of these historical resentments ever happened, and we just got along. It would have been great. (I know it is an Utopian and idealist dream)but alas this is not the case. I feel that like it or not, we will have to live together, and yes, we will have to keep a close eye on the radical elements in Quebec, as Anglo-Quebecois who want to stay, we too want a good quality of life. There are times I privately curse and swear at the Franco majority for their silly behavior and laws that harm both anglophones and allophones, and there willful amnesia that we too are citizens of this province, and their pointed rhetoric that would make us feel unwelcome in our own province for which we have lived for generations. What the rest of the country is saying is irrelevant, and what happened in the past is irrelevant. Just let us look to the future and ask ourselves can we live in harmony? can an anglo community survive? or are we just doomed to be two solitudes,or even worse will the anglophone community simply dwindle and die.

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  37. FROM ED BROWN
    Cutie, When you speaak of partotion, what about Montreal? We say if Canada is divisible then Quebec is divisible, does it follow that montreal would be divisible also. What's your thoughts on that and how should it divide? Ed

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ed = I see the only fair way out of this mess is by Federal Electoral District referendums. I'm not familiar with all the areas of Montreal but I realize that this would not be easy and some areas may decide to stay in Canada and some in a new Quebec so physical location would certainly come into play but if everyone is reasonable I'm sure something could be worked out. Perhaps those areas of Montreal that vote PQ all the time could be persuaded to join a new bilingual province in Canada rather than living with say Abitibi in isolation in a new Quebec? Do you think there are many areas in Montreal that would demand to stay in a new Quebec? When looking at the map of Montreal that vote Liberal vs those that vote PQ, how strong do they vote PQ? Is it overwhelmingly PQ or close voting that takes place? I'm no politician and no lawyer but reasonable people can work things out. Because Montreal is an island unto itself perhaps it could hold a referendum just for the island to get a feel of how things would go. And yes, to me it follows that Montreal would be divisible also if it's a means to an end. Our area in the Outaouais could also have some enclaves that would want to remain in a new Quebec but I guess we would have to live with that also.

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  38. FROM ED BROWN
    Troy, You talk like the students who marched in the streets with their 12 year old mentality. "All will be good, the money will come from somewhere, perhaps from the sky." Marois says, "we will come up with some projects to make up the difference. We will find something." She hasn't even figured out how to replace the lost money but like a dreamer she plunges ahead and drags us with her. Your her disciple for sure. I bet you walked behind to carry her pot lids. Ed

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  39. I agree with you Ed and Cutie about the entitlement mentality of many Quebecers..notably the francophones. Thats the real problem right now..more important than language. The university students on strike made me literally sick last spring..the nerve of these students marching around disrupting classes to other students..disrupting average citizens. And why..not because they were being mistreated or under a dictator rule..no because we dare ask then to pay more than 15 percent of the true cost. These students already pay the lowest tuition in North America..the government already ensured that the increase wouldnt apply to any family making under 100,000 per year..its absolutely ludicrous. Meanwhile how many of these students were walking around with 300 dollar smartphones and designer clothes and eating out in restaurants every day..going on vacation..spoiled brats really. Now we reward their immature and unethical behaviour..what a wonderful message we are sending out. By the way 58 percent of Quebecers voted for parties which supported the tuition increase..where is our democracy??

    And the 7 dollar per day daycare is a joke..we were lucky enough to get into it with our two youngest children after being on a waiting list for 3 years. I could have afforded more..there were families in our daycare in which the mother didnt work and she just wanted to drop off her kids 2-3 days per week so they could go skiing or the spa or whatever. Families making millions and only paying 7 dollars per day..its ludicrous. This program should only be for lower income people where both parents need to work. Some sociologist was trying to argue that this program pays for itself because it allows mothers to work and they pay taxes and so on. But if those mother didnt work then someone else would be working in their place and would be paying taxes..its not like there is a labor shortage in this province????

    I feel like down is up and up is down in Quebec. There is no common sense..no sense of personal responsibility..its all about the government..aka other people taking care of me. If I was going to leave this province it would be more because of this entitlement mentality than the language issue. Its this mentality which will bankrupt this province.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So now there are two reasons to leave.

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  40. It is true this province is going nowhere fast and I do think the rest of Canada is getting sooooo sick of it. I am not scared that this province will separate, this would have happened already had it really been possible, it wouldn't have taken them so long, otherwise it doesn't speak highly of those behind this ideal, rather inept on their part, not to have gotten it done, after all this time. No, I'm more afraid Canada will get so fed up, it will decide to have a referendum of its own and show us to the door with a " don't let the door hit your A&& on the way out"

    ReplyDelete