I'm glad that my views and those of our commenters provide a convenient foil. I have not provided a link back to that article as it is no longer my policy to encourage anyone to visit his site. Suffice to say I don't agree with his convoluted views, based on misinformation and faulty math. Preaching to the choir, he and Mario Beaulieu can spout just about anything and have it lapped up by his minion who collectively suffer from anglo-itis.
I did get an email (not a comment) from one of his readers asking me what exactly my version of linguistic justice represents and it occurred to me that it'd make sense to explain my point of view on the subject (and have readers give theirs.) The emailer pointed out, quite rightly, that I spend a good amount of time bitching and moaning, but never actually enunciate a position.
I've been thinking about it for a few days and it is fit and proper (as they say on The Rock def# 21) to outline my views on the major points of contention vis-a-vis language.
I've saved this piece for the weekend, so that readers can have the time to develop their own responses.
Now when it comes to language in Quebec, there are three basic points of view.
The first is shared by Mr. Prefontaine and his followers, and calls for a blanket rejection of English within Quebec. While some allowances would be made for the 'historic' Anglo minority,(whatever that is) the so-called accommodations are tailored to eliminate English in Quebec within a generation or two.
The second diametrically opposed view would restore complete and utter freedom of choice, whether that be in education, signage etc. etc.
The third choice is a compromise that lies somewhere between the two above options. Defining this policy is more difficult because there are many versions, depending on ones point of view.
My personal view is based on a personal version of that third way.
You may already have chosen Door number 1 or Door number 2 and so I look forward to reading your comments, but I suspect that most of our readers (on the anglo side) are not the language extremists that we are made out to be and will opt for their own personal version of Door number 3.
My view is based on a compromise, one that respects Quebec's desire to protect its language, which is a legitimate concern, while respecting its Anglophone citizens.
First, I'd like to point out that Francophones are a minority in Canada and a majority in Quebec, while Anglophones are a majority in Canada and a minority in Quebec.
It isn't fair, nor does it make sense to refer to Anglophones in Quebec as a minority without acknowledging their majority position in Canada. It isn't splitting hairs. Francophones who remind us that Quebec is French, refuse to admit that Canada is English.
Like it or not, Quebec remains an element of a country that is by any measure, mostly English. This fact cannot be ignored.
And so, I won't be referring to any group as a minority or a majority.
The rights of both francophones and anglophones to learn the other official language is of paramount importance, as Anglos living in Quebec cannot function reasonably without speaking French, while francophones cannot function reasonably in this world, without English.
Education
There's little doubt that educations remains the most contentious issue, likely because it is believed by most, that children who attend French school will become assimilated on the French side of the language equation and that children who attend English school will be anglicized.
I don't actually agree with this interpretation and hold that it is the language spoken at home that determines what children will become in later life, but that is a whole other discussion.
The government should provide for both English and French education (as it does.) Anglophones should go to English schools and francophones should be streamed into French schools as policy. It's a reasonable compromise to tell francophones that the government won't pay for their schooling in English .
That being said, citizens who disagree, should have the right to opt out of public schools and attend private schools in the language of their choice. These private schools should continue to be subsidized by the government, but it is reasonable that a student not eligible for French education in the public system, be refused a subsidy in the private English system.
As for college and university I don't believe the government has an obligation to pay for English education for francophones. If they wish to attend English schools of higher learning they should pay for it.
I know many of you will disagree and this point will be contentious, but I believe that the government has the right to pay for what it wants to and if subsidizing francophones to go to English universities is not something they want to finance, so be it. The government would have to live with the consequences of telling these students that they could attend English universities, but would have to pay more than eligible Anglos to attend.
As the French language defenders point out, it means that only rich francophones could attend English schools, but so what?
There is nothing wrong with the government determining what kind of services it provides to its citizens, but at the same time, those who don't like or don't agree with the level of those services should be free to make their own arrangements.
By the way, this principle should also apply to Medicare with the government offering the medical services it determines it can afford and citizens free to accept those services or again, make their own arrangements privately.
This is the essence of freedom, which should always include the right to say 'no thank you.'
As for transition schools, where non-eligible students use a one-year ruse to win eligibility to English education, I would support any law that would eliminate the practice. It's sneaky and unfair.
If parents of non-eligible students want their child to go to an English school, the government shouldn't be obliged to pay for it, but on the other hand, parents should be allowed to send their kids to English schools if they are willing to pay the full ticket.
All Quebec immigrants should be streamed into French schools, but with some notable exceptions.
Immigrants of school age, who speak only English, should be entitled to go to English schools. This would include immigrants from the USA, Great Britain, Ireland, the English Caribbean islands and Australia and New Zealand.
Forcing these children into French school is an affront to good sense. They will never become Francophones no matter what. Remember, this is still Canada, AN ENGLISH SPEAKING NATION. No provincial government should be allowed to tell an English person that he or she must give up English to live in Canada.
Of all the language restrictions this one is by far the meanest and stupidest. As long as it remains on the books it will remain a testament to nastiness.
Public Service & Signage
I have no problem with French-only signage across the province of Quebec, except in bilingual towns where signs should be posted bilingually (without any preponderance of one language over another.) Bilingual towns should offer bilingual services, but cities where there are few anglos could provide French services only.
The provincial government should provide English services in the greater Montreal area, but in the boonies, service could be French only, with the proviso that English service could be arranged upon special request. This includes all government agencies (like the CSST) and crown corporations (like the SAQ)
I don't believe an English person can expect to be treated in English in a hospital in Chicoutimi, nor be served in English in a SAQ in Abitibi. That being said they should have this expectation in a town like Pointe-Claire.
That's my version of language fairness. It's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Nothing above will affect negatively on the protection of the French language, but it will make anglophones feel that they are treated fairly and remain honoured members of society.
Agree. disagree.
If you're a regular reader of this blog, I know you have a strong opinion. You can critique my views or offer your very own perspective.
I'd ask that if you are going to comment in some length, add an ALIAS so people can comment on your opinion without referring to Anonymous@12:01.
Have a wonderful weekend!
P.S
A note to ALLCAPS;
It does not matter how many comments you send in, if you include a message in all capital letters that includes an expletive or a threat, or a desire to see somebody come to harm, IT WILL NOT BE PUBLISHED!!!!!
That's a lot of wasted effort, don't you think? You can say just about everything you want to say and still get published by obeying these simple good neighbour rules. You can even remain insulting and sarcastic (which I enjoy.)
> You can critique my views or offer your very own perspective.
ReplyDeleteI will do both. True to form, I am in favor of rabid institutionalized bilingualism. I don’t believe Canada should hide behind its anglo majority any more than I think Quebec should hide behind its franco majority to encourage any sort of demolinguistic status quo or assimilation. The views you express seem to encourage, endorse, and even reinforce that very status quo.
Even as a separate country, Quebec would need a vanguard of multilingual people who can serve as our political, cultural, professional, and economic ambassadors. For all the vogue of France and the Francophonie, our primary relationship would likely still be with our North American neighbors and it’s pretty obvious that to have one, we’ll have to speak English. The emerging economies of China and India still haven’t matured enough to impose their languages worldwide and it seems at least for now that English is going to continue being the language of international exchanges.
I suggest we get a leg up and add a third (truly foreign) language to the curriculum.
> It's a reasonable compromise to tell francophones that the government won't pay for their schooling in English .
That’s not a compromise; it’s a slap in their face. It’s encouraging the language groups’ isolationism at a time they need to be more integrated than ever. We can’t afford to have non-functionally bilingual citizens. Let’s aim a bit higher than that and target perfectly bilingual and accentless students coming out of a unified linguistic school system by the time they finish cegep. It’ll be a hard pill to swallow but it’s the elephant in the room that nobody wants to acknowledge as the true compromise this province needs.
> it is reasonable that a student not eligible for French education in the public system, be refused a subsidy in the private English system.
Disagreed. If we can’t have a fully bilingual public system, I’m completely in favor of a return to freedom of choice. Anything else is politically expedient eugenics. Encourage bilingualism. If either language dies out in Quebec (or Canada), let it be out of natural selection, not for want of trying.
Think how asinine it would be if a government regulated our right to conceive children based on the eventual eye color of the baby. Blue-eyed humans are a vital important part of (European) history and culture, and represent a shrinking slice of all humans because brown-eyed people with their aggressive dominant gene are overpopulating. Actions must be taken to ensure that blue-eyeds don’t disappear within a generation!
> I know many of you will disagree and this point will be contentious, but I believe that the government has the right to pay for what it wants to
You make it sound like an elected government is a judicious parent with enduring authority and presence. It’s actually made up of a lot of career opportunists who are more worried about re-election and the propaganda necessary to ensure it than dishing out the tough love that citizens need to hear and strongarming the reluctant into a solution.
> As for transition schools, where non-eligible students use a one-year ruse to win eligibility to English education, I would support any law that would eliminate the practice. It's sneaky and unfair.
ReplyDeleteNo such sneakiness and unfairness would be resorted to if both sides played fair and open. And as a francophone, I really hate that term. “Transition schools” or “gateway schools” makes it sound like they’re a stepping stone into something terrible, kind of like how marijuana leads to heroin.
If anything needs a transition, it’s our obsession with cultural protectionism. Languages and cultures evolve with various pressures. It’s ridiculous to think that the snapshot taken (even in this city) in the 10th, 16th, 19th, or 20th century is one that ought to remain the same.
> All Quebec immigrants should be streamed into French schools, but with some notable exceptions.
All Quebec immigrants need to become perfectly bilingual. It’s in their best interests to do so. They fail to do so at the risk and peril of their own integration within the current world economy. While they’re busy losing one accent, they might as well tack on the same task for a second language too. Their knowledge of a foreign language should be treated as something of value to us both culturally and economically, and not something that should be “assimilated” out of them as soon as possible.
> I have no problem with French-only signage across the province of Quebec, except in bilingual towns where signs should be posted bilingually (without any preponderance of one language over another.) Bilingual towns should offer bilingual services, but cities where there are few anglos could provide French services only.
I have a huge problem with the absence of the other language. It encourages people to think that it’s acceptable to think of their immediate vicinity as a cocoon of monolingualism. That’s what’s wrong with Canada in the first place. Put up a bilingual sign as often as possible; the other language community might just pick up more vocabulary.
> Nothing above will affect negatively on the protection of the French language, but it will make anglophones feel that they are treated fairly and remain honoured members of society.
At the risk of sounding insensitive, who cares whether anglos or anyone else “feels honored” as members of society? The real problem with this debate is that there is an attempt either to bend over backwards making various groups in this country feel special (or not bending enough) that we’re losing sight of the brutal truth. Language is above all a means of communication. And before you tell me I’m being insensitive and am not appreciating the emotional attachment to language and communication, consider this. The more you can communicate, the more opportunities you have to eventually create economic, professional, and, yes, emotional bonds. If you impart the gift of multiple language communication to a young child, they’ll be better equipped to forge those lasting bonds and emotionally relate to the various languages (and their speakers) in due course.
It does, after all, take a village to raise a child.
.... I gotta say I agree with everything you say EXCEPT the Public Service and Signage. I don't believe that only Montreal should require bilingual signage and the boonies only provide service / signage in French. I live right next to the New York border and there are many, many tourists each year who visit our area in specific and the number one complaint that is heard is: "we don't understand anything, there is no English help." - As you enter Quebec there is a sign just after the border, no picographs - just words - in FRENCH explaining about the difference between kilometers and miles. No one from the USA understands that sign. Would it kill them to put it in both English and French??
ReplyDeleteI also strongly believe that all hospitals should be required to speak both French and English. Quebec has a high amount of tourists during all parts of the year and to all areas of Quebec too and there is nothing worse than going on vacation in an area where, if something happens and you need to go to the hospital, no one can understand what is wrong. And if they can't understand what is wrong then how can they help you?
I also believe that cops & ambulance as well should be required to know functional English. I once got pulled over by the Seppie cop and because I refused to speak to him in French, he gave me a bogus fine that resulted in me losing my license for 3 months (yes, I fought it but still lost). Ya... no joke. Illegal much? Would they do that to someone from Ontario or New York just because they didn't know the language.
However, I do agree that secondary services (services that only pertain to the residents of Quebec (ie. SAAQ) could remain only in French if so desired - but I believe that it should be the choice of each individual branch and not be forced upon by the Government.
As for Schooling, I would like to see elementary and high school changed so that those who's mother tongue at home is French will attend English schools and those who are English attend French schools.The reason being is that this way you are kinda forced to learn both languages equally. Once you hit higher education (college, university) you decide which language you wish to attend in. I grew up in an English home, went to elementary, high school, and even adult education in English. Now I am attending college in French. The course I am taking is readily available in English but I chose to take it in French for better understanding because when it comes to "the real world" in Quebec - you can take all the courses you want in English but if you cann't translate that knowledge into French then it's useless to you.
.... but that's my two cents!
@8:53 am (la jolie poupée)
ReplyDeleteC'est bizarre parce que quand nous allons faire du tourisme dans le N.H,rien n'est écrit en Français.Nous devons nous débrouiller et avec un minimum d'intelligence,nous y arrivons.
Devrais-je faire une plainte au ministère du tourisme de cet état?Même problème pour les Chinois et les Arabes.Pourquoi les anglos serait-ils privilégiés?pourquoi le reste de la planète devrait se soumettre aux normes des anglos?Quand tu fais du tourime il ne faut pas se surprendre de voir des choses inhabituelles.
Expliquez-moi s.v.p
Chénier dit : À Melissa, vos touristes qui ne voient rien parce-qu'il ne comprennent pas d'autres langues que la leur, c'est leur problème. Un touriste italien qui se rend aux États-Unis qui ne comprend pas l'anglais, va-t-on placer des pancartes en italien ? Va-t-on lui parler en italien ? Non, votre bilinguisme obligatoire, vous pouvez le garder pour vous. Le Québec sera français ou ne sera pas. J'ai vécu à Toronto assez longtemps pour vivre l'expérience ''canadienne'', tout le monde vit publiquement en anglais, un point c'est tout ! Au Québec, la vie publique se fait en français, c'est tout. Y'a rien à débattre. Parlons de la Constitution s'il-vous-plaît !
ReplyDeleteExcellent points all around. I strongly believe in full bilingualism in Quebec, and I also believe in protecting Quebec's culture. It's one of the things that make Montreal an awesome city.
ReplyDeleteAs far as education, Quebec and Bill 101 are doing nothing but hampering its own citizens. A francophone friend of mine, with a major in economics, had a bit of a hard time finding a job here in Montreal, because as a born and raised Quebecois speaking very little english, he could not communicate with the rest of Canada and the US.
The same scenario would happen on a province wide scale were Quebec secede from Canada. They would need english speakers to deal with the ROW (rest of the world), because the Global Community operates in English. This ties in with your previous post, which I also agree with. On a separate note, I am SOMEWHAT thankful for Bill 101, I am fully trilingual now. As a latin american immigrant 17 years in this country now, I can proudly say I perfectly speak three languages. However, I still believe I would have learned french regardless of the Bill. I love languages.
Speaking of education, have any of you read this article? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec/quebec-teachers-puzzled-by-students-attraction-to-english/article1868665/
I am sure most of you are aware of it, but I'm throwing it out there nonetheless.
"...vos touristes qui ne voient rien parce-qu'il ne comprennent pas d'autres langues que la leur, c'est leur problème. Un touriste italien qui se rend aux États-Unis qui ne comprend pas l'anglais, va-t-on placer des pancartes en italien ?"
ReplyDeleteMany Quebecois who vacation in Florida demand that French be present on signs there, but they won't extend the same courtesy to Americans who visit Quebec. It's the same old story. The Quebecois demand respect but they disrespect everyone else. No wonder they are so despised in Florida and most of the other places they visit.
"The Quebecois demand respect but they disrespect everyone else. No wonder they are so despised in Florida and most of the other places they visit."
ReplyDeleteIn 17 years of living in Quebec, the one word that comes to mind to describe this kind of behavior is "entitlement". I don't know when or how such an embedded strong sense of "tu me dois, on me doit, je suis du" appeared here.
TO the Editor:
ReplyDeleteSo I am the threat to your bullshit site!(you think probably you are a hero for the Anglos)
Well I hope you enjoy it, your vicious site deserves a few commentators on the outside.
By the way you pubish everything I wanted.
Perhaps other people are getting to you. You should enjoy more flacs as you are the responsible and without a real job, publishing
such nonsense ! from les gens de la rue ....
jobless, philistins and poor of mind, rehashing what people are living which is exactly what they deserve: a wrotten ambiance in Montreal. If only the French would be respected and if the English would accept the French is ruling in Quebec, the French are ruling in France, The English are ruling in England, the Irish are ruling in Ireland, Portuguese is ruling in Portugal etc...
================================================
ACCORDING TO UNITED NATIONS:
Le français est langue officielle de ces pays suivants:
Le français est une langue officielle pour ces pays:
_________________________________________
Belgique (avec le néerlandais* et l'allemand*)
Région wallonne (sauf en Communauté germanophone)
Bruxelles-Capitale (avec le néerlandais)
Bénin
Canada (avec l'anglais)[pour le moment]
Québec
Nouveau-Brunswick (avec l'anglais)
Nunavut (avec l'anglais et l'inuktitut)
Ontario (avec l'anglais)
Territoires du Nord-Ouest (avec l'anglais, le chipewyan, le cri, l'esclave du Nord, l'esclave du Sud, le gwich'in, l'inuinnaqtun, l'inuktitut, l'inuvialuktun et le tlicho)
Yukon (avec l'anglais)
Burkina Faso
Burundi (avec le kirundi)
Cameroun (avec l'anglais)
République centrafricaine (avec le sango)
Comores (avec l'arabe et le shikomor)
République du Congo
RD Congo
Côte d'Ivoire
Djibouti (avec l’arabe)
France
Gabon
Guinée
Guinée équatoriale (avec l'espagnol et le portugais)
Guernesey (avec l'anglais)
Jersey (avec l'anglais)
Haïti (avec le créole haïtien)
Inde (seulement dans Pondichéry)
Italie (co-officiel avec l'italien)
Vallée d'Aoste
Luxembourg (avec le luxembourgeois et l'allemand)
Madagascar (avec l'anglais et le malgache)
Mali
Mauritanie (avec l'arabe)
Monaco
Niger
Organisation du traité de l’Atlantique nord (OTAN)
Rwanda (avec le kinyarwanda et l'anglais)
Sénégal
Seychelles (avec l'anglais et le créole seychellois)
Suisse (l'allemand, le français, l'italien et le romanche)
Je suis d'accord avec Chénier.
ReplyDeleteD'abord, pendant des années je voyais le bilinguisme comme un état parfait, dans un pays puissant. Maintenant j'interprètre le bilinguisme comme une arme à deux tranchants. Le français appartient aux pays du Québec.
Avec le temps, le Canada est devenu pour moi un pays désenchanteur, un tapis pour tous les immigrants, les déchus, les illicites et nous le défendons au même titre que les USA. Les Canadiens anglais se mettent à agiter leur feuille d'érable comme des lunatiques, et à coller un ruban "support the troops". Mais ne nous engageons pas dans une digression avec ce détail.
Le Canada est un pays qui réajuste son rôle fédéral au fur et à mesure que le ressac de la vague québécoise linquistique se heurte à la Terre. Le Canada est un pays qui devient sans principe auprès de leurs valeurs intellectuelles, et il devient difficile à représenter ce pays (le mien) en face d'une table internationale. Depuis le nouveau drapeau à feuille d'érable effaçant son histoire, le parti libéral a encore une fois "enlouisianné" le français sous le chapeau de la Trudeaumanie : un embarras. Cet embarras qui a survécu depuis 400 années, oui 400 ans. (This is basic notion of history)even if you don't accept it. You cannot rewrite history from your little opinions as a jobless English Canadians frustrated to live in Quebec !
P.S.: Les enfants là qui ne veulent entendre l'histoire que depuis la conquête britannique, Je vous en prie! Cessez vos jeux hypocrites et tâchez d'ouvrir vos livres d'histoire de quatrième année primaire.
To @8:53 am (la jolie poupée).
ReplyDelete‘C'est bizarre parce que quand nous allons faire du tourisme dans le N.H,rien n'est écrit en Français.’
New flash: The United States of America has ONE official language and Canada has TWO official languages.
Sorry dude, but you make me feel like I’m talking to a complete idiot.
Why do Quebecois nationalist always ignore reality as though bitter denial will create a new world. There is nothing bizarre about it except for your deluded response, which completely ignores the fact that Quebec is on Canadian territory, and Canadians are French and English, with two official languages (I hear your arrogant scoffing). Travelers from other countries understand this and expect to see evidence of it. Is it any wonder that they are confused and disadvantaged when their perception of Canada does not coincide with reality? Quebec nationalist ignore Canadian language laws and values with impunity. This is why more and more Canadians are frustrated with Quebec’s unreasonable behavior. How egotistical and frail can you be that a few signs in English set up to help tourists should compromise your identity or undermine your language? Paaaathetic. Even if Quebec were a true country, how much of a dick head do you have to be, to not want to accommodate and welcome foreign visitors with a few bilingual signs? Many international cities around the world do this, because it’s hospitable, classy, and just makes sense.
'Même problème pour les Chinois et les Arabes.’
What are talking about? Canada has only two official languages. I seriously doubt that Chinese and Arab citizens and visitors expect anything else. This is such a lame and obtuse argument.
Carry on. Every time you speak about these matters you expose your illogical antiquated beliefs.
To ALLCAPS @ 11:41 or is it allcaps now?
ReplyDeleteDude you are funny, I really mean it.
By the way, I'm glad to see that French right up there with "Shikomor"
TO INFLAMES:
ReplyDeleteTo you the so called "person" who likes to insult in lower cases:
I can write a big book with what you don't know !
-------------------------------------------------
"
Sorry Dude,... but you make me feel like I’m talking to a complete idiot"
-------------------------------------------------
[You should address yourself to the United Nations, I am sure they will have the greatest opinion about you.]
==============================================
Jersey is not New Jersey, is that what you are referring to ?
Jersey est la plus grande des îles Anglo-Normandes, dont la capitale est Saint-Hélier. Sa superficie est de 118,2 km2 et elle est peuplée de 91 084 habitants et la langue français y est parlée officiellement....
==============================================
and to you Editor who sets the rule of order, perhaps you should learn one or two things:
QU'EST CE QUE LA LANGUE COMORIENNE ?
Le « shikomor » est une langue composée de mots africains, de mots arabes voire même parfois de mots portugais et anglais. D'où vient la langue comorienne ?
Le fonds primitif de la langue comorienne est essentiellement « africain » et plus précisément bantu. Comme tous les langues, la langue comorienne emprunte des mots de la langue portugaise de l'anglais. Par contre, l'apport arabe est très important. Cela s'explique par la très forte islamisation des Comores, depuis la Grande Comores (Ngazidja) jusqu'à Mayotte (Maore) en passant par Mohéli (Mwali) et Anjouan (Ndzouani). Malgré ces emprunts, le comorien (shikomor) reste, sur le plan de sa structure grammaticale, une langue bantu.
You think I am am empty punching bag ?
Ha ! hA !
Mr. Editor,
ReplyDeleteAfter reading your latest, I'm beginning to think that you're a closet supporter of Bill 101. You say that the govt shouldn't pay for an English education for Francophones...ARE YOU FUCKIN KIDDING ME? What if a Francophone family with a low income wants to send their kids to English for a better a future in Canada, or the world for that matter? They won't be able to because the government refused to help the family. This is just a "softer" version of the status quo. Also, parents should not have to look for "sneaky ways" for their children to receive an English education. Bottom line is, parents, regardless of ethnicity/linguistic group, should be free to choose which language of instruction would be better for their children. For me, this is the end of discussion regarding education
In principle, I would agree that signs outside the GMA(Greater Montreal area) don't necessarily have to be bilingual, but you have to keep in mind something: what if there's an Anglophone family in Rimouski for instance, they should still be allowed "Convenient Store" alongside "Depanneur". After all, this is basic freedom of expression and speech. Given that there's a thriving tourism industry in Quebec, especially from the US, it is in Quebec's best interest to make English a co-official language at all levels of government (this would also elevate the English speaking community to the same level of importance as the Francophone majority).
NoDogs, we Anglophones have been kicked around at the pleasure of the Quebec politicos for 4 decades and we cannot allow it to continue any longer. The federal government has chosen to abandon us just so that they can obtain a few votes from les nationalistes kebekua. We have to restore the equality that existed in the pre-Bill 101 era, in all sectors of life: school, workplace, public/private sector etc....
ABOLISH BILL 101 NOW!!!
Anglo Montrealer
I am not up for compromise at all. Compromise will just lead us to a Bill 101 in the future. Bill 22 was seen as a compromise and it led us to Bill 101. Quebec was unilaterally declared French Only.
ReplyDeleteI for one am just for using the Federal government to use the not with standing clause to eliminate bill 101 period.
As for Funding of English schools, why not have a system like in Ontario where property taxpapers can decide what school boards they will fund.
Bill 101 was seen as protecting the French language and the pur lainers are still complaining about proliferation of English.
Also its not enough about immigrants with just English countries that have English as an official language. Parents or students that were already in English schools should also have the right to English school.
ReplyDeleteSo was Albert Einsteen, He was funny and nobody around him taught he was "normal". You would have told him to kneel down in front of your newspaper on line I suppose ?
ReplyDeleteespecifically if you have heard of the gravitational redshift and the gravitational deflection of light.
You are writing using a zone in space nobody believed in at the time.
Chénier dit: À InFlames: Je cherche toujours les signes d'un bilinguisme à Toronto, Mississauga, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse- Ancienne Acadie, dépossédée...) et la liste est longue, lâchez-nous les chaussures avec vos deux langues officielles. Au Québec, c'est le français la langue officielle, au Nouveau-Brunswick c'est le français et l'anglais et ailleurs dans le ROC, c'est l'anglais. Fin de la discussion. Les Québécois ne veulent pas d'un bilinguisme qui aurait tôt fait de les isoler davantage en tant que francophones. Faire des affaires en anglais avec les états et provinces anglophones mais vivre et travailler au mieux être du Québec en français !
ReplyDeleteTo Inflams:
ReplyDeleteI am not sorry to attack your virginal sense of thinking the expression about QUEBEC. You are not used to hear
at your end: le pays du Québec, but it is used
more and more frequently !!!!!!and by anglophones as well.
Get tuned to the new flames, or get a hose and disappear!
For the record, cette jolie poupee est francais, mais on parle tout temps en anglais a la maison.
ReplyDeleteAnd like InFlames said ... you cannot compare the USA in this debate. At the end of the day, Quebec belongs to Canada. Canada is English and therefore Quebec should have English included in the roads signs at the very least.
Si tu aller aux Chine, il y a des signes on anglais, meme si tu aller a la Suede. L'excuse que le Quebec est une province francaise n'est pas jusification.
Get out of the mindset that French is #1 ... you have to think, there is a reason WHY the rest of Canada hates Quebec (and Quebecers).
Vive le Quebec?? Non, vive l'anglais!!
InFlames tu es en flammes aujourd'hui!
ReplyDelete"how much of a dick head do you have to be, to not want to accommodate and welcome foreign visitors with a few bilingual signs?"
La ville de Québec est la plus visitée au canada et il n'y a...Aucune affiche en anglais,aucune!
Votre raisonnement ne tient pas la route.
"Si tu aller aux Chine, il y a des signes on anglais, meme si tu aller a la Suede. L'excuse que le Quebec est une province francaise n'est pas jusification..."
ReplyDeleteJ'adore votre accent!!!!Verrrry Sexxxy!
Revenons aux choses sérieuses:Peut-on comparer 1,000,000,000 de parlant chinois en Chine avec
6 millions de Francopgones entourés de 350,000,000 d'anglophones?Est-il si difficile pour un anglo de relativiser et de mettre les choses en perspective?
S.V.P,un peu de sérieux.
When the separateux use Pays, it's just their mis-interpretation of what the actual French word means in this case, which is a region of Canada.
ReplyDeletehttp://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pays
Just a game to them, to be played incessantly over decades. In the same way that QC as a Nation means a sociological one not a encapsulated territory - see Ken Dryden's explanation of this mis-interpretation and the malaise that would follow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckuTIzKQwQM
We are living within a multi-nation state, but the Bluenecks or Rednecks will argue with you for years to try and preach something that is simply not true, to make up for their lack of understanding. It is basic and something you learn in Politics 101.
"Vive le Quebec?? Non, vive l'anglais!!"
ReplyDeleteK I've agreed with you up untill this. Quebec is my home and is an integral part of Canada. So yes vive le Quebec. Vive le Quebec libre is another story.....
And vive l'anglais? C'mon now that's part of the problem. We COULD try to have a dominant world language AND be humble about it you know.
And editor..... I'm so perplexed by your version of linguistic justice that I'm begining to wonder if the real editor has been kidnapped and replaced by an undercover RRQ agent. Why should French families have to pay for an English education? That's not giving people freedom of choice. That's simply giving someone freedom with a big IF.
To the seppies here, you suck.
Fun little activity: Draw up a list of all the complaints the Quebecois made about Canadian oppresion in the 50s-70s. Then draw up a list of all the legislative actions taken by the PQ that relate to language, minorities, and assimilation. Compare.
The Editor is allowed to become a supporter of Bill 101. What are those threats ?
ReplyDeletePerhaps the Editor can recognize a quality of life in an area where French is dominant. If it would be that bad to live in Montreal, why are there so many Anglophones? The reason is if you are an educated Anglophone (like the Editor who seems to be bilingual and capable to question an audience and have an newspaper internet)whhy do want to crush the mother tongue of Quebeckers.
Why are so so repulsive ? and feel so unwanted in Quebec ? The size of the signs ? So what ? I live near Toronto and nothing is in French, not even the College of doctors and physicians, where I have to deal with a doctor who was a quack and let my husband walk with an agressive cancer for 3 years, while smiling at me who is a francophone !
Will it gratify you? The majority of Quebeckers do understand English, but because it is a difficult language to learn it is an easy language to forget they have to work to preserve their own language their mother give them birth with. (MOTHER TONGUE is the language your mother took care of you the very first moment you were born, when she breastfead you etc...)
I encourage the Editor not to pronounce himself on the topic, not to bite -- and let him decide secretely want he wants.
Merci monsieur l'Éditeur, et prenez note que je n'ai pas un bon ordinateur, et que malgré mon pseudo nouveau MADCAP j'en suis heureuse.
Merci derechef.
I like the way Hugo express our diversity, even if it is a difficult one : Bluenecks or Rednecks,
ReplyDeleteyour' cool Hugo.
I agree up to a certain point with the interpretation of the region. Only legislation has to come down to territorial matters one day or another.
But first things first, I agree, we have to talk of the big picture, culture, languages, etc....
The island of Montreal is interesting because the focal point is the Mount Royal. If you look from a bird's eye view, each area architecturally speaking reflects the people who came and invest through history. It is not easy to trace, but architecturally speaking it is well recognizable. I am sure you enjoy Montreal.
Je suis un independantiste et je suis d'accord pour un compromis entre anglo et franco....en faite je me suis toujours demander pourquoi le mouvement independantiste ont jamais eu l'idee d'enterrer la hache de guerre linguistique a l'interieur du QC de 1 ) et de 2) proposer a la communauter anglo de fonder un nouveau pays ensemble en dehors de ce CAnada dysfonctionelle (( yeah we can argue about that for hours...))
ReplyDeleteOUi, y a pas beaucoup de militant independantiste qui ont ce genre de penser.....vu que la plupars du mouvement est prisonnier du complex de l'apartheid linguistique et suivent aveuglement leur leaders qui anyways soit ne savent plus comment faire le pays ou tente a tout prix de ne plus en parler et encaisser le cash du federal hypocritement...
You see.....Pauline ne veut pas faire l'independance, elle veut juste etre elu la premiere femme ((Prime Minister)) du Quebec et continuer a manger du caviar without get disturted in his palace...et Gilles Duceppe est un pro North American Union(( the irony)) et un petit dictateur dans son parti...il aime bien trop sa paye de deputer federal pour vouloir faire un pays.((funny huh?))
Le reste des leader du mouvementont ((seppies)) ont donc mis le projet du pays dans un boite et l'ont enterrer pour le moment.....donc la meilleur facon pour eux de continuer a avoir des votes et de continuer d'exister, c'est perpetuer l'eternelle apartheid entre anglo vs franco au QUebec.....meme les federalistes en profite largement de ca...juste a voir les anglo voter en bloc pour les voleur du PLQ parceque THEY DONT HAVE ANY OTHER CHOCIE AT ALL....its sad.
Je suis donc pour pour la paix lingustique et l'elaboration d'une constitution quebecoise ou autant le francais et l'anglais seront respecter ((and the natives folks too)).
Nous ne sommes pas tout des retarder raciste dans le mouvement independantistes.....mais malheureusement c'est toujours les fous et les borner de la langue qui ont toujours le micro.....
MR. EDITOR:
ReplyDeleteTo answer your title, is there a perfect theory of social justice that can guide us to a richer, more responsive approach to social cooperation to the French in Quebec?
Your newspaper on line gives a limited proportion of the answer, but it does
reflect a malaise coming from the Anglophones
who are not capable to recognize they are
a minority.
I was Queen and King while in Quebec,
I know what it is to be a minority in Ontario,
(not by choice).
Here's my response to our chief harassment officer, "Votre commentaire est en attente de modération" Actually deleted and ignored :) Pas de classe... (and by the way Matt, nice comment above, I can recognize your writing buddy! thx again)
ReplyDelete---just a bit of background from the Marche pour l'abolition de la loi 101 FB event:
Louis Préfontaine Bravo Hugo, tu viens de citer des municipalités offrant des services bilingues. Ceux-ci ne concernent que les services municipaux. Ça ne change strictement rien au fait que la langue officielle du Québec est le français et que l'anglais n'est PAS une langue officielle.
Yesterday at 11:14am · Like
Hugo Shebbeare When I ask for documentation from the QC govt I get it in English no problem, except for one dick-head by the name of Raymond Craig:
http://intellabase.com/Govt-ArtificialPersonsLette.jpg (just like running into Pierre Curzi in the workplace, or the occasional Anglophobic bureaucrat)
If documentation comes from the Govt in English, then it is official, there is not way it can be coming from them and be 'unofficial'. Fix your buggy Clanniste code, and stop harassing those who speak the Lingua Franca in their own Country and Province.
Another thing you Cavemen should learn, from your own Govt:
http://www.cnt.gouv.qc.ca/en-cas-de/harcelement-psychologique/index.html
Que CE QU’EST LE HARCÈLEMENT PSYCHOLOGIQUE
Le harcèlement psychologique [enligne dans ce cas] est une conduite vexatoire qui se manifeste par des comportements, des paroles ou des gestes répétés :
qui sont hostiles ou non désirés
qui portent atteinte à la dignité ou à l’intégrité psychologique
Jeez, seems you are a professional at this stuff, breaking the Laws of QC, your own province in a repetitive fashion. You are a petty cyberbully criminal and should be locked away, but the corruption here works in the Septards favor...
http://www.cnt.gouv.qc.ca/en/in-case-of/psychological-harassment-at-work/index.html (see in EN too, OMG, it must be UNofficial...in your back-asswords mind)
No wonder la laicité and médiocrité rule QC, c'est le nivellement vers la bas à chaque fois.
______________
Now on with the show, the comment that was deleted (no surprise there): http://louisprefontaine.com/2011/01/09/delire-persecutoire-minorite-anglophone#commentaires
Mon cher Louis Préfontaine,
Nous sommes de ces anglophones du Québec qui adore la langue française : c’est la raison pour laquelle nous vivons ici. Il y a 400 ans déjà depuis que le français existe au Québec, et il n'y pas de doute que cela restera ainsi pour les années à venir. Mon prénom, et celui de ma sœur, Monique, sont d’origine française parce que nos traditions Franc-Normandes continuent depuis plus que 1000 ans déjà (voir Ascelin Perceval de Gouel, ou bien, Robert D’Ivry qui ont envahît l’Angleterre avec Guillaume en 1066). Nous demandons simplement que l’égalité devant la loir entre tous les citoyens du Québec existent, ce qui est présentement pas le cas.
Votre article est franchement sans goût et plein de mépris pour vos voisins de la province depuis plus que 250 ans. Nous avons bâti cette province ensemble, c’est une coexistence de cultures depuis la conquête sur les plaines que semblez bien oublié malgré un diplôme en histoire (?): Irlandais, Écossais, Anglais et Français principalement (et non exclusivement) – grâce à la coopération et tolérance des autochtones après la Grande Paix, ont tous aider à créer un Québec contemporain.
Je suppose que de marcher dans une ville bilingue le 16 Juliet l’année dernière, voir
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/blogs/hugo/archive/2010/07/19/how-to-deal-with-quebec-s-extremists-expose-their-malfeasance-publically.aspx , en hurlant vos propos anglophobes est de bon goût? Je n’ai pas le choix que de défendre la minorité anglophone contre vos propos Xénophobes envers non seulement notre minorité (qui est autour de 14% de la province, bien plus que votre mensonge écrit ci-haut) mais aussi envers les Allophones. Je prends des risques à nous défendre devant vos insultes, propagande haineux et harcèlement psychologique: les malfaiteurs que vous représentez fièrement ne sont d’ailleurs qu’une petite faction intolérante du Québec à l’intérieur de la minorité séparatiste-clanniste. Enfaite, vous faîtes partie de ceux que crient le plus fort afin de nous présenter en tant qu’oppresseurs-colonisateurs (peut-être un gros bébé qui ne lâche pas son nombril depuis les plaines, tel que Patrick Bourgeois?). Si vous êtes si brave avec votre Blog haineux, qui chie sur tout le monde constamment, exploite le harcèlement de façon répété, pourquoi vous n’êtes pas capable de dénoncer officiellement le scandale de la Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec officiellement comme moi.
Mon rapport sur leur audit interne est actuellement banni de publication et, ce contre les intérêts du publique et de la transparence de cette institution maudit. Il est encore une autre confirmation de ce que les grandes boites McKinsey et PricewaterhouseCoopers ont trouvées aussi en ce qui concerne la mal gestion de notre propre ‘bas de laine.’ Revenez me voir quand vous pouvez mettre à vos genoux la plus grande boite de fonds institutionnels du Canada en entier à vos genoux pendant deux ans et demi avec un double recours. Si vous êtes vraiment le plus brave défenseur des intérêts des tous les Québécois, pourquoi ne pas dénoncez ce genre de bavures et d’injustice ? Même l’Association Québécois des retraitées publiques et parapubliques m’ont appuyé avec mes démarches – allez voir leurs communiqués de l’année dernière à propos de la Caisse !
Reculons en septembre 2008, après avoir obtenu la preuve en main que la Caisse de Défauts a échoué son audit interne (projet de contrôles internes, politique d’attestations financières, bien avant la perte de $47BN divulguée le printemps 2009), j'ai commencé de grimper la montagne de l'illusion tranquille afin de mettre à genoux ces imposteurs, et voleurs de liberté/droits que vous détester autant que moi des fois dans vos postes blogues antérieures. J'y grimpe toujours, suite à une décision écrite à l'encre souverainiste par le Commissaire Louise Verdone à la Commission des relations du travail (qui attaque une victime comme souvent fait par le gouvernement : voir les Voleurs de L’enfance)- j’étais parrainé grâce à ma superbe avocate Jocelyne Cotnoir de la Commission des normes du travail: www.sqlservercentral.com/blogs/hugo/archive/2010/02/15/first-public-hearing-against-quebec-s-pension-fund-manager-the-beginning-of-proof-multiple-laws-were-violated-before-sabia-took-over.aspx?CommentPosted=true Le double recours se poursuit avec la Commission des droits de la personne.
En ce qui concerne la loi ´petit peuple´discriminatoire 101, un grand peuple n'as pas besoin d'une loi pour faire une jambette à ses propre voisins qui parle une langue 'étrangère' tel que projeté sans cesse par des extrémistes tels que vous (des gestes qui contribue à l’épuration ethnique des minorités de la province, afin de le rendre homogène ‘pur laine’). La langue française au Québec n'est pas en danger, c'est une fausse tempête pour que le PQ ou Bloc obtienne plus de vote sur le dos des minorités qui favorisent la Lingua Franca (qui est une langue officielle au Québec dans plus de 70 municipalités, donc c’est absolument faux de dire le contraire), bien sûr, et pour favoriser un environnement non-concurrentielle au gouvernement pour la majorité linguistique de la province. Un grand peuple, dont je fais partie (par des Charlebois), n'as pas besoin de baisser son voisin, ‘ma langue doit être plus grande que la tienne icite’, avec une loi si discriminatoire que cette Chartre! Il est grand temps que le Québec évolue de son Anglophobie, nous sommes en 2011 voyons! C’est débile au Québec le racisme et justice à deux vitesses (voir l’article de Marc Cassivi Presse).
ReplyDeleteSi vous n’êtes pas capable de voir comment les moins que riens-choyés-pitoyables selon vous, sont empêchées de progresser au sein du Gouvernemama ici au Québec, car <2% d’anglophones seulement sont permis de travailler dans notre propre gouvernement, alors vous êtes complètement irrespectueux et l’ignorant que cette forme de discrimination peut se passer partout, et le Québec ne fait pas épargner de ce genre de bassesse. Actuellement la Commission des droits de la personne est dans le processus de médiation avec la Caisse de Défauts pour les commentaires non-voulus envers ma personne ‘Tu vois, les anglais sont faciles à mettre dehors’ par Yves Roy, ancien Première Vice-Président de cette institution anciennement pourri par Rousseau et sa gang de bandits à cravates, alors une fois de plus, vous vous trompez encore avec vos pensées que la discrimination n’existe pas envers les anglophones du Québec. C’est à noter aussi, qu’une deuxième Première Vice-Président, Rodrigue Lussier, a été mis à la porte grâce à mes plaintes. Par la suite, la Caisse, en déboursant 1.4$ millions de l’argent des contribuables, a fait le nettoyage de 55 postes, depuis que Michael Sabia est arrivé pour rediriger cet énorme bateau perdu avec son ethno-nationalisme rétrograde.
Même vos alliés proches vous a mis à la porte de la SSJB et du MMF, c’est à se demander si Impératif français, le RRQ en feront de même? Voici un commentaire d’un de vos ‘amis` ( quebecfranophone at videotron.ca – Yvan Major August 17, 2010) : ‘….Vous êtes un francophobe qui se plaigne de même façon que Louis Préfontaine haïsse l’anglais...il n’y a pas grande différence entre vous deux, sauf la langue vous défendez mal.’
De mon côté, je ne suis pas ni francophobe, ni anti-bilingue tel que vous, et je ne suis évidemment pas Xénophobe, donc bonne chance avec vos démarches de zélote.
Je vous souhaite une agréable journée Monsieur Préfontaine, continuez de vous tirer dans le pied étant donné votre réputation de militant francophone freak bien connu. Veuillez accorder mes plus grands sentiments distingués.
Hugo Shebbeare
PS. Je suis Canadien pas un ‘anglais’. Par contre, les anglais de Cambridge ne trouve pas ce j’écris pitoyable, tel que vos amies séparateux. Voici mon plan de relève gratuit, qui reste la meilleure rubrique dans cette catégorie depuis un an déjà : http://www.simple-talk.com/sql/backup-and-recovery/
Ou bien, cet article publié par Microsoft lui-même, le géant de l’informatique, remplit avec les fautes anti-meilleurs pratiques de la Caisse de Défauts :
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/gg483744.aspx
Nos institutions sur-financées? Quel propos de jalousie ! Ce n’est pas notre faute que le niveau de décrochage est très élevées chez les institutions de la majorité de la province. Arrêtez de blâmer les ‘autres’ encore. Les institutions anglophones on le plein droit d’être financé comme elles le sont, car le Canada a deux peuples fondateurs, et nous vivons dans le Canada. Le Québec est une ‘province’ et égale région conquit, et dans ce cas ‘pays’ égale région, dans cette interprétation du français. À Lire : http://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.com/2010/02/myth-of-overfinancing-of-english.html
ReplyDeletehttp://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.com/2010/09/ouch-fridays-blog-piece-hits-nerve.html
Autre chose: En Belgique, le Vlamns Blok a été banni – tel que le PQ et BQ devront être, puisque tous qu’ils font est de répété l’incitation de discrimination envers les minorités du QC par leur politique ethnocentrique, et crie comme des bébés que le français est en danger au QC, sans tenir compte qu’il existe ici depuis 400 sans faute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang ‘ La scélérate marche de main en main avec le RRQ et ce sans conséquence – parce qu’un attaque sur les ‘anglais’ et notre langue est toujours mérité. Quel hônte..que vous êtes Monsieur Préfontaine pour le mouvement indépendantiste.
A Madame l'indépendantiste:
ReplyDelete"Je suis donc pour pour la paix linguistique et l'élaboration d'une constitution québeéoise ou autant le francais et l'anglais seront respecter ((and the natives folks too)).
Nous ne sommes pas tout des retardés racistes dans le mouvement indépendantistes.....mais malheureusement c'est toujours les fous et les borner de la langue qui ont toujours le micro..... "
Oui, c'est une vision parfaite, malheureusement lorsque vous présenter un budget à négocier en face d'un tribunal, vous demandez davantage pour obtenir moindre.
Je propose le Français majoritaire, avec l'acceptation de la minorité anglophone, bien entendu. D'ailleurs ceux qui sont bien installés ont contribué largement à l'économie avec les Francophones, et sont intégrés à leur culture. Ils se sont enrichis et les francophones aussi. Le rouage économique en a bénéficié. Ils ne sont pas comme les anglophones hors Québec qui nous traitent comme de vulgaires ennemis.
En fait si la ville de Québec n'a pas d'affichage en anglais, je suis prône à retirer l'affichage bilingue à Montréal. Le touriste trouve toujours sa voie, son périphérique, son autoroute.
Les Anglophones sont bilingues, ils n'auront qu'à jouer le jeu, comme nous en Ontario.
Qu'en pensez-vous citoyenne ?
Je demande que l'Éditeur retire les crachats haineux face à ma question. Je demande l'accès à une censure . Cela devrait être un projet pilote pour l'Élaboration d'un site plus
professionel et pourrait apporter davantage au profit du l'Éditeur.
"The Editor is allowed to become a supporter of Bill 101. What are those threats ?"
ReplyDeleteWhat threats? I made a joke about him having been kidnapped and replaced by an RRQ member.
I'm not repulsed by the French. I'm perfectly (no accent) bilingual, have many French friends, and have dated (as in a relationship) 3 french Quebeckers in a row. What DOES repulse me is that people in Quebec cannot choose the language of their education in an officially bilingual country without paying extra for it.
Très belle lettre, touchante et révélatrice Hugo. Nous vous en remercions.
ReplyDeleteCeci dit vous avez fait le point. Nous sommes à revivre un autre siècle de la Terreur. Le sang dans les rues: non, le harcèlement de la santé mentale: oui. Je suis entièrement d'accord. Touché mon ami.
Ce harcèlement va de la distortion de l'histoire de la Nouvelle France jusqu'au sommet de la loi 101 qui est la loi du cadenas sur notre foie de la langue.
Depuis 250 années vous vous rappelez, mais depuis 400 JE ME SOUVIENS (this is how it is written on every Quebec automobiles plates -motor vehicle).
Depuis quand effacerez vous mon histoire dans l'agora du Québec tandis que vous me reprochez ne pas me rappeler la vôtre si oppressante ?
Eh bien, c'est la faute de François 1er, car c'est sous son régime que la Nouvelle France naquit.
Oui, la première civilisation européenne, après celle des Vikings. Est-ce de ma faute ? Jacques Cartier aurait pu mettre le pied ailleurs, allez-vous faire changer le nom du pont Jacques Cartier en celui de Harper ? Ne soyons pas cynique... (Sorry, the devil made me say it).
Pour redevenir sérieux mentionnons votre mot "coexistence", ceci veut dire que c'est un état de plusieurs choses qui existent en même temps, et non de similarité qui s'entendent comme dans le rêve de l'amour.
Les citoyens canadiens de Montréal ont des droits légitimes comme ceux de la ville de Québec. Nous vivons des temps modernes ou tout le monde demande et exige la respectabilité et le besoin de s'épanouir dans sa langue.
Le Québec à Montréal n'est pas obligé d'afficher en anglais, et Montréal n'est pas obligé d'écouter les anglophones Hugo. Leur majorité se situe à l'ouest du Québec. La francophonie veut et désire respirer sans vous. Cela ne veut pas dire pour le moins que nous ne vous apprécions pas. - Si, nous vous aimons bien. Mais un peuple respectable doit se protéger, lui et son patrimoine. [surtout lorsque sur ce site tout le monde semble souffrir d'un trou de mémoire aussi grand que le Titanic.]
D'ailleurs ILS NE SONT PAS LES SEULS A LE FAIRE.
It's always interesting to read the comments from the in-bred pur laine knuckle-draggers. On this planet, is there any other allegedly free society that has legal restrictions on what language you can put on a sign? Here are some ideas to consider trying that have certainly worked well in other places: How about signs of any size in any language you want? How about goverment-paid education in your choice of french or english, or any other language if you pay? How about service in english in any area where there is enough demand to warrant it? In other words, how about a little fair and reasonable common sense? If your Quebecois "culture" can only survive by using fascist goon squad tactics, I don't think it's worthy of preserving. Here's an idea for La Belle Province: grow up, stop whining and shivering in fear at the prospect of change and embrace it.
ReplyDeleteThe only place where education cost very little is in France. Montreal used to be very cheap. Now McGill University has a great reputation, and is appreciated in the European arena.
ReplyDelete--Languages are not popular among the English Canadian, but in Europe they are part of life. ---- So don't be too negative by acquiring and paying for knowledge. Knowledge is power my friend. Bonne chance.
Louis Prefontaine's blog (or "blogue" rather) is pathetic. They have a so called "nétiquette" which forbids readers to comment in English (or any other "foreign" language for that matter -sic-).
ReplyDeleteTo Diogenes:
ReplyDeleteYou bear a beautiful name, perhaps you are linked? there used to be a beautiful charcuterie called Diogenes, subway Berri-Demontigny. The cold cuts and pates were terrific!!!!
Anyway, you want a free for all society ? "All signs different languages etc.." come to Toronto. Plenty of that even cockroaches the size of a car on walls... come any time.
No to English, the Province is French. In fact, this culture should be more strict and have no English sign at all. Coherence like in Quebec city should be better !!!
Time for you to adjust, if not, your resistance will cost you your unhappiness and a lack of savvy.
What is wrong with you ? Why can't you learn French? Give me one reason, one intelligent one. If you are over 80 and your life span is limited, I am sorry, and please disregard my messsage, otherwise, put your thinking cap on Mr. Anglais.
Perhaps you want the government to pay you to learn ? Will this make you satisfy?
I believe I am not the one who is the protestor here. I can handle 4 more languages just like this one, my mother tongue is French. I learn English late in life and it cost me a fortune.
Don't be disrespecful, be normal when you present arguments.
PS: my history is not forgetting that Joan of Arc was burned by the English and she was canonized 400 years after only, so don't malign the French over your limit !
My advise to you : travel, study, read and learn French if you are not a reject from remedial classes.
Bill 101 has to find its place in a sewage dump somewhere. The only equitable solution to this, in my opinion, is a fully bilingual Quebec of equal opportunity for all cultures. If A Francophone in Chicoutimi is not familiar with the word STOP next to ARRET, and can't put two and two together, then I'm afraid that no amount of repressive legislation can help him.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't the private territory of Francophones. It's Canada. Equal rights across the board, or nothing. Human dignity and the freedom to speak your language without fear of bombs, violence or financial penalties should be a part of the Canadian experience.
Of course, this will never happen. The majority of public servants have been hired straight out of the Beauce. Most of them don't speak English thanks to 101, and they will fight any change to keep their jobs, and us in our second class status.
So let Quebec keep 101, its French signs, its Prefontaines, Dumonts and other Brownshirts, as long as the territory of this Quebec starts somehere around St Jerome and the rest of us have become part of Ontario.
"my history is not forgetting that Joan of Arc was burned by the English"
ReplyDeleteHow current of you. Was this just printed in the Journal? Did they mention how many Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals the Vichy government shipped off to concentration camps a little more recently? Did they discuss how many North Africans and Vietnamese were butchered by the Foreign Legion and other French forces? I wouldn't think so.
"I learn English late in life and it cost me a fortune."
Congratulations. Use it on a daily basis and it might just cost you more in Quebec. In case you haven't heard, it's illegal to speak the language under certain circumstances. And I do hope that where you work you use a French version of Microsoft because they too might get fined.
"Perhaps you want the government to pay you to learn ?"
QActually, the overwhelming majority of Anglophones and Allophones in Quebec are fluently bilingual, and trilingual in many cases. What we are suggesting is that the Quebec government pays for Francophones o learn a second language as most of them, outside of Montreal, are abysmally ignorant.
"Time for you to adjust, if not, your resistance will cost you"
Is that what you say to all the girls? This is NOT your country. This is Canada. It belongs to all of us. Canada has TWO/deux official languages, so resistance to your apartheid is actually the only moral and legal thing any Anglo and Allo can do in this province.
Just what are you going to do about it if we suddenly just flipped you all the oiseaux and ignored your linguistic, fascist, xenophobic, legislation?
If you want a unilingual Quebec, cecede. Until then, God Save the Queen.
"My advise to you : travel, study, read and learn French if you are not a reject from remedial classes."
You should also post this comment in French since Quebecers have the highest drop out rate in the country. Just replace French with English, since it's Quebecers that need French signage in Florida to find the beach.
"the French are ruling in France, The English are ruling in England, the Irish are ruling in Ireland, Portuguese is ruling in Portugal"
ReplyDeleteAnd Harper is ruling in Quebec. Now go back to your bong and your imaginary country.
I'll have to preach again as usual, but first thanks for the kudos regarding the letter above. I enjoy writing in French, it is a great challenge to do well (and someday I will be able to do it well, not exactly that above). It was a quick off the top of my head write early this week knowing that some Chump has decided to label me on his useless blog – felt it necessary to have a rebuttal online. I am pretty sure he has about 300 visits a week of clanniste fanbase, who adore profiting from our minority here in QC, as well as anything other than his ethno-centrism. I would recommend doing a blog that teaches people something useful Louis, instead of hate – the other month I reached a quarter million distinct readers on my blog posts cumulatively, and sometimes I complained about contemporary QC, but most of the time it was to teach people about Databases. Perhaps teaching people about QC history from primary source material would improve such a windging blog.
ReplyDeleteIt is pretty incredible to believe there is so much intolerance that Rights are okay to withdraw from individuals in QC, no matter what linguistic side they are on. It would seem the majority is conditioned to being content with 'le petit pain.'
I would like to remind those, like the commenter above me that Unilinguals on either side have the right to exist - it is not always because they might be lazy (Justin Trudeau was called on this), it is possible that they simple are bad at languages.
Heck, when I wrote the letter above, it seems impossible to write Loi properly, the R just put itself there :)
I want people to think about Tolerance, as in Guy Favreau's example:
Compromise is the meeting point between the thought of two intelligent beings....
Christian charity, the spirit of tolerance, the art of compromise, the desire to build collectively great works. A truly 'Liberal' spirit of tolerance.
This is something that happened at the Olympics, everyone worked together and built an amazing team that 'owned the podium' - it is too bad that the rest of the time the bickering takes over like the dysfunctional family syndrome :(
Anonymous at 5:35 - who the phrack are you to tell what 1M people should do in QC- that they should just drop their rights and be French Only. Man, you'd be right up their with the collaborators...oh wait you are, with those that want QC 'cleansed' of any English speakers. This is Canada, we live all across our Country as Francophones do...and they preserve their language and traditions in the RoC without co-ercive laws. I wouldn't even be bilingual if in BC, while growing up, they did not have a public school called L'école bilingue. Meaning that if BC had a B101, I would have that decision to go to EN only school made up for me by Gouvernemama! Simply dumb.
To PHIL above, as my friend Matt said the other day, do not read his blog (sorry I put the link Editor, you were right) - it will only make you more dumb, as is Louis' fanbase of xenophobes.
So, again, I repeat, B101 is out of date, and takes away rights away from not only minorities, but from the majority to make the decision for their language of education - and that is why we do not live in a democracy within QC, we live in a elite-controlled mediocrity.
Melissa, above, please join us on Quebec Office of the English Language on FB to raise awareness - many hands make light work. Thank you all and good night. Most of all great work Editor.
I am libertatiran, so my take is ABHSOLUTE indiviidual freedom, french will evolve, trying to keep it in a bottle, is akin to the roman catholic church trying to keep latin frozen in time.
ReplyDeleteGive people their freedom end of the story. Too many excess against individual freedoms have been made by legislating good intentions.
'...And Harper is ruling in Quebec..."
ReplyDeleteSur quelle planète habitez-vous? Le Québec nous appartient et c'est nous qui décidons quelle langue est officielle et dans quelle langue Harper doit parler quand il s'adreese a nous.Vous les anglos et les allos de deuxième classe n'avez qu'a l'apprendre et peut-être passerez-vous un jour en première.Allez!Vous n'êtes pas si stupide.
"...the other month I reached a quarter million distinct readers on my blog posts cumulatively..."
ReplyDeleteEt combien vont descendre dans la rue avec vous pour manifester contre la Loi 101? D'après votre page facebook : 12
Vous êtes vraiment le champignon du canada.
‘What is wrong with you ? Why can't you learn French? Give me one reason, one intelligent one. If you are over 80 and your life span is limited, I am sorry, and please disregard my messsage, otherwise, put your thinking cap on Mr. Anglais.’
ReplyDeleteNice try at diversion and deception cher ami.
Here are some simple points for you to ponder about the typical Mr. and Ms. Anglais (Anglos and Allo):
- They do speak French.
- They do show Francophones respect on a day-to-day basis.
- They know that learning speaking French does not stop the socially acceptable Anglos bashing contempt and discrimination.
- They do not identify with racially based Quebecois nationalism.
- They do not like hate groups like Jeunes Patriotes du Québec, the attention they are given, or the influence they have on society.
- They are not seppies and want to stay in Canada.
- They know that if you are not Québécois Francophones de Vieille Souche you are one of ‘the others’, a ‘tolerated’ second class citizen.
- They know that the psychological harassment against English speaking people will continue.
- They want the same rights as all Canadians have in every other province
- They don’t want to be dismissed, ridiculed and told to take the Hwy 401 if they don’t like Bill 101.
- They know that Bill 101 could easily get more draconian
- They know that they could lose more of their rights (not just language) if the Franco majority feels like it.
- They know that they have no political voice or political certainty.
- They know that Quebec style apartheid and genteel ethnic cleansing continues unabated.
"Sur quelle planète habitez-vous?"
ReplyDeleteThe one where Harper is prime minister of Canada and in a controlling position of all railroads, ports, airports and the military in Quebec, among a whole host of other powers that reveal your national assembly for the joke it really is.
Remember the War Measures Act? That's also a little something in the federal government's playing deck.
35 years later, and nothing has changed. Just dug up these old CBC news clips, watch a bunch and you'll see...
ReplyDeleteI love how the PQ said in 1976 Quebec (and it's English population) was "sick" and needs to be cured. Fast-forward to today, Quebec is now on its death bed! Thank you Parti Quebecois and all your separatist morons.
http://archives.cbc.ca/politics/provincial_territorial_politics/topics/1297-7472/
Anglo Montrealer weighs in....Part 1
ReplyDeleteTo quote "Adski" in a post he made on another blog which I found interesting... A few facts I'd like to point out...
- "Their new idol is Bill 101. Like a jealous deity, Bill 101 discourages the use of a particular language and stresses that Quebeckers live in French. The new deity asks us to ignore the reality that surrounds us, and if we refuse to ignore that reality, the new deity can resort to coercion against us. The new deity is beyond criticism - any criticism is met with anger and hostility. Arguing with the followers of the new deity is pointless – they just know what’s right, even if their contradictions and fallacies are clear and evident.
- "Bill 101 is a set of rules that, not unlike the 10 commandments, guides Quebeckers through the complexities of life. It offers easy answers to complex and ambiguous questions that life throws their way. It serves as a protective blanket, something that makes them feel safe and secure, and helps them sleep at night. But the feeling of security is just an illusion, brutally verified every day for those Francophones who live in Montreal. In this city, it is not uncommon to run into angry French people who complain that despite French being the official language, proclaimed by Bill 101 to be the language of work, commerce, business, and communication (i.e. everything), it is simply not the case. But instead of coming to grips with the reality and accepting that laws do not always reflect or shape the reality (especially if the law is passed in the atmosphere of nationalistic hysteria), they choose to blame the reality for not conforming to the deeply flawed and unrealistic laws."
- Bill 101 is the new religion, after the Roman Catholic Church. Quebec Francophones have switched dogma
-Quebec's lame attempt to accept as many immigrants from French speaking country as possible is a total failure, considering that many of them do not even speak the language of Moliere once they settle in Montreal.
-Quebec nationalists are on average extremely nostalgic and can't get over the fact that French is a useless and irrelevant language in North America. The only time French was truly the main language of communication in Montreal was during the glorious days of New France, that is, until les maudit anglais easily destoroyed Montcalm's forces at the Plains of Abraham. French is not longer that global language of diplomacy and is not even considered one of the most spoken languages anymore.
-A common complaint by the language zealots is that while most Francophones in QC have to learn English, people in the ROC don't bother to learn French. Why should they? They don't need French to function in the outside world, whereas Francophones need to learn English if they wish to function in society in urban cities in North America, INCLUDING Montreal.
Anglo Montrealer weighs in....PArt 2
ReplyDelete- 5000 new immigrants arrive in Quebec each year, who are mostly bilingual and couldn't give a rat's ass about "protecting" the French language. Many Montreal Francophones are moving to the suburbs. Greatly as a result of this, the Francophones population in Canada is dropping to about 20% and once it goes below that, their influence on national policies will be minimal to irrelevant. If this happens (as it most likely will) and they wish to separate as a result, Quebecers will have to make a choice: be the king of their own garbage; a potential Haiti of the North or be part of the 4th greatest nation on Earth according to the UN. Although I honestly doubt this will happen because Quebecers have shown from time to time to vote with their wallets, not with their heart.
-Quebec is a semi-autonomous unit in a federation with several other provinces. It is self-governing for the most part, and able to leave the confederation if the majority of its citizens so desire. Quebec is like a European country within the EU. Seppies tend to ignore this fact. So much for Quebec being enslaved...
In conclusion, I usually support freedom movements around the globe, but the Quebec "cause" is one that I can never support, even if someone threated me with a gun on my head. It is purely based on lies, paranoia, manipulations of stats(time and time again) and on pure racist ideals eerily similar to those of the KKK.
PS: I added a few of my own notes to Adski's comments.
Pourquoi la souveraineté n’est-elle pas encore chose faite? Voici la grande question qu’il se pose. «Il y a déjà deux pays, dit-il. C’est impossible qu’un seul pays soit fragmenté à ce point. La division sur l’avenir identitaire est trop grande.
ReplyDeleteHi All! Mississauga Guy here...remember me?
ReplyDelete1 of 2:
I didn't forget you all. I learned of a long, overdue promotion this week and have already started to learn what I'll need to know for the new job when I start at the beginning of the new month. You'll be hearing less from me as I won't have as much time on my hands as I have [my detractors may now cheer and applaud!].
I nevertheless will still be reading and contributing, just not as much, at least not until I'm further up the learning curve of my new position.
With that in mind, first of all, Editor, I'm really shocked at how much you seem to support the sociopolitical engineering of Quebec's Holy Grail, that Charter of Charters, Bill 101.
That being stated, I'm even more shocked at how you'd ideally worsen the divide between the two solitudes by having immigrants from English speaking nations obligatorily obtaining an English instructional education and French for the rest.
René Lévesque poignantly called THAT discrimination. He felt if you're an immigrant, you go to French school otherwise Americans, Brits, etc. are getting preferential or special treatment.
In fact, the original Bill 101 called for ONLY Quebec-born children who had at least ONE parent attend at least six years of elementary English instructional schooling be allowed to go to English schools themselves. THIS EXCLUDED CHILDREN FROM OTHER PARTS OF CANADA! That was finally ruled unconstitutional by the federal Supreme Court of Canada.
The idea that there should be forced signage depending on the region/municipality is also outrageous. Does Canada have TWO official languages, or not? Here in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area), I've ssen signs in Chinese alone in the northeastern Town of Markham, Arabic alone in the former City of North York (now a part of the amalgamated City of Toronto) and Vietnamese alone in the Spadina Road area, on the southwestern edge of the downtown fringe. I've seen French alone in Ontario, especially in the Ottawa suburb of Vanier, going back to 1982!
I have yet to hear on the news any demands for those businesses to add another language to their signs. The GTA is still a living, breathing, functioning organism, just like every other heavily inhabited part of the Earth!
Based on that model, I strongly disagree with Editor's version of more sociopolitical engineering. My view is LAISSEZ-FAIRE! Yikes, a French term!
OK, now it's 2 of 3:
ReplyDeleteThe Quiet Revolution has now manifested itself for a full half century and the result has been a lot of unhapiness with no chance of consensus in sight...well...not quite. There is consensus amongst Francophones, federalist, separatist and everything in between: the goal of all Quebecers living in French. Simple as that!
I can't speak for all Quebecers, I can only do so for myself. I left Quebec, and I planned my escape for ten years before being able to fully implement my final escape. I thought it would mean the end of French forever, but I was wrong, and I am PARTIALLY glad I was!
About 2½ years after emancipating to Ontario, I was asked in a job interview if I spoke ANY French. I said I have SOME proficiency. Maybe I was a bit shy because I didn't oversell it, and perhaps because my perception of French knowledge in Quebec was of a much higher standard than outside.
To settle it, the recruiter switched to French. I spoke French for about 30 seconds and he was satisfied of my proficiency. From that time in early 1987 until now, all but two temporary positions I held asked for French, I was quickly tested and found to be sufficient at least orally.
I partially attribute my getting these jobs due to the fact it's hard to find respectible bilingual people outside Quebec, at least in the GTA. I found since near the end of the 20th Century, the service industry, especially in phone centers, is looking for bilingual people in many major cities to serve all of Canada. Outside of Quebec, border towns in Eastern Ontario and New Brunswick, bilingual people are hard to recruit. Demand exceeds supply. I've heard Quebec City area employers are crying out for workers with proficient English, but can't snag enough of them!
There is NOTHING anyone can say to me that make me believe French in Quebec is in danger of disappearing. If Lord Durham's attempt to assimilate the Francophone population into English didn't work, NOTHING TODAY WILL!
3 of 3:
ReplyDeleteIn Lord Durham's day, and in my early youth as well, our society was far more ordered. It was the height of bad manners to challenge politicians and professionals, i.e., one's betters. The Baby Boomers challenged that, and I perceive the Quiet Revolution as a manifestation of the Baby Boom generation. Boomers became far better educated than any previous generations before them and therefore had the capacity to challenge authority through their collective know-how, and subsequent generations and their ever increasing body of learn-how, never mind know-how.
My 15-year-old son is showing me more knowledge of things than I had when I was 25. This New Millennium generation is incredibly knowledgeable!
Based on all this, I believe in freedom of choice everywhere. Every effort, especially in our major cities across Canada, should make second language immersion easy to access.
Ken Dryden's address to the House of Commons on the how "Quebec as a Nation" serves a greater nationalist agenda is very correct and very profound. As I've written here many times before, the Real Canada needs an equalizer--a federal political party that serves the English speaking majority first, and Quebec needs to be put back in its place. No more preferential treatment, like overly generous equalization payments and a disproportionate share of other federal program funding. If Quebec contains 22% of the population and about an equal proportion of the contribution to the federal coffers, then it should get about that much out of the federal system, little more, little less.
If Quebec can't accept a more proportionate share of the federal pie, then as Reed Scowen's book title states, it's time to say goodbye. With Quebec's current debt state, its people would be utter fools to go it alone, but that would therefore be their choice. If there is continued squabbling, the people of the rest of Canada, DURING A FUTURE ELECTION (to minimize the costs), should have a plebiscite attached to their ballot asking unambiguously if they want to negotiate Quebec out of Canada.
I’m starting to see what motivates your get-tough-on-Quebec-approach, but remain unconvinced it would serve our province and country’s interests any more than the separatist argument that says we need to be independent to enjoy a better relationship with Canada. A change might well occur, but I can think of at least one well played-out precedent elsewhere that could serve as a warning against the idea you support.
ReplyDeleteThe partition of India along religious lines was advocated by some, especially Muslim proponents, as the way to serve the interests of the two main religious communities there. Partition advocates argued that only once a clear delineation between “India” and “Pakistan” was formalized could the Hindus and Muslims ever come together and enjoy a renewed, prosperous, and integrative framework. Kumbaya, they stated, was virtually guaranteed.
Sixty years and three wars later, events on the subcontinent have exposed this divorce-before-marriage illusion for what it is – pure nonsense. India is officially secular, and Pakistan an (increasingly) Islamic republic. Both have gone their separate ways and evolved accordingly. Both have serious issues to overcome as a result of the marker used to distinguish them in the first place.
Hindu nationalist parties in India have done little if anything to promote better social cohesion between Hindus and Muslims within that country, as had been championed by Nehru and Gandhi. The Babri Mosque incident and even the insidious trend toward renaming places to reflect a more “purely” Hindu narrative of Indian history is disturbing to say the least.
For their part, leaders allied with Islamic fundamentalists and their local sympathizers have also gone a long way to undermine and discredit Jinnah’s vision of a secular Islamic Pakistan. The Hudud ordinances, right up to recent demonstrations where the assassin of the Punjab governor who called for reforming the country’s blasphemy laws was praised as a hero, reflect a sad state of affairs indeed.
Perhaps an observation of recent Indo-Pak history provides some interesting food for thought when looking at the national unity situation here.
(1/2)
@Pepe le Pew
ReplyDeleteThat clip is funny. the hilarious thing is 22 years later, those students wouldn't be able to do such a thing in St Laurent. They would get it back even worst.
Also with the internet there is things like counter protests. The pur lainers don't like confrontation when it could mean they can get similar treatment. Most of the recent protest in the Montreal area are much more tame because of this fact.
Thats why they were even intimdated by a nobody like Jim Angus Brown(they made him a somebody, they gave him free publicity just like they are giving this blog). Our comments themselves are something the pur lainers don't like hearing. In its own small way it is making a difference.
Pakistan was initially made up of 2 majority-Muslim but geographically, politically, and linguistically disparate communities who drifted further apart after that country had gained independence in 1947. The Punjab-based power brokers seemed to have little use for integration with their distant Bengali compatriots, whom they treated much more like a colony than as equals. This culminated in growing tensions, a war, and an eventual split between (West) Pakistan and Bangladesh. Bangladesh maintains strikingly warmer relations with India, its former opponent during Partition, but one whose involvement was pivotal in its separation from its initial ally West Pakistan.
ReplyDeleteMark Twain suggested that history might not repeat itself, but that it sure does rhyme.
I wonder how an independent Quebec’s own growth pangs would play out if nearly half of our population is opposed from the outset to the cultural and linguistic situation created post-independence. Half of all Indian Muslims fled or were expelled from India; half stayed in the country, wanting no part in a military identity conflict justified with differences in religion and culture. For all the talk of Quebec partition (legally dubious and still something I’m opposed to), I wonder if Montrealers would ever become so discontented as to take on the National Assembly and in turn secede from Quebec, or whether such a movement could be successfully kept at bay by Quebec City with an inevitable “one country, two systems”-like policy. Would we become an independent city-state (as Singapore did upon leaving Malaysia) or an outpost of Canada (like Gibraltar, Hong Kong, St-Pierre-et-Miquelon)?
Or, will the mental exercise of separatism (whether in one or two acts) be all for naught? Quebec nationalism, in both its healthy and unhealthy manifestations alike would have never been able to express itself as it has were it not for the structures and mechanisms already in place. As Anglo Montrealer suggested, will more of us realize before it’s too late that the dreams, promise, and lure of a “free Quebec” peddled by the indépendantistes is nothing more than snake oil, and continue to vote with
(2/2)
I want to thank the editor for letting a much larger Quebec anglo-allo view come out. Before the internet, anglos and allos were always represented by appeasers. I though I was the only allo-anglo that thought that those so called anglo leaders would always bend down towards what are our rights to appease the chauvanist scum that would hate us anyway.
ReplyDeleteWhen I found this blog I saw that alot more anglos and allos were not in the mood for compromise and were calling out the pur laine scum for the Bullsh.t and lies they were spewing.
Another thing I also found was compared to the traditional Anglophone community, the immigrant groups, Greeks, Italians, Jewish, East Indian, Pakistani, Arab and other community english speakers were much more vocal and not worried about confrontation with the Pur lainers.
To Anonymous at JANUARY 15, 2011 5:06 PM
ReplyDelete‘Another thing I also found was compared to the traditional Anglophone community, the immigrant groups, Greeks, Italians, Jewish, East Indian, Pakistani, Arab and other community english speakers were much more vocal and not worried about confrontation with the Pur lainers.’
I know; it's awesome. Maybe it’s because you don’t bear the same burden of guilt that those of us of UK descent do. Some of our ancestors messed up along the way, so today we are made to feel an undue sense of forbearance. Any way, I love the solidarity with immigrant groups, much respect. I also can appreciate your comments about the editor and the internet. I see it as a game changer, even if nothing in Montreal/Quebec changes because of it. With every article and comment, the story gets told for posterity. I see value in that alone, because one day the children will ask, ‘WTF happened?’ Never bend over to appease the Quebecois victim complex and sense of entitlement. Like you said, they’ll hate us anyway.
3/3)
ReplyDeleteAs Anglo Montrealer suggested, will more of us realize before it’s too late that the dreams, promise, and lure of a “free Quebec” peddled by the indépendantistes is nothing more than snake oil, and continue to vote with our wallets?
> I want to thank the editor for letting a much larger Quebec anglo-allo view come out. Before the internet, anglos and allos were always represented by appeasers.
ReplyDeleteTrue. But they still are even *with* the Internet. And there are proportionally just as many politicians on the other side of the debate who are too scared to admit some hard truths we need to face as francophone Quebecers.
> I though I was the only allo-anglo that thought that those so called anglo leaders would always bend down towards what are our rights to appease the chauvanist scum that would hate us anyway.
If it makes you feel any better (or worse), I’m a franco-anglo-allo who thinks the majority of our political representatives and media are culpably negligent for creating and maintaining the smokescreen/diversion that they have which has kept them in business while fostering mutual angst, insecurity, and intimidation, all at the cost of good common sense.
Peace, order, and good government – what a farce!
> When I found this blog I saw that alot more anglos and allos were not in the mood for compromise and were calling out the pur laine scum for the Bullsh.t and lies they were spewing.
You’d also be surprised at the fair number of francophones who are extremely proud to live and work in French who realize and value the importance of English, and who believe that there’s a more balanced role both languages need to play. Then there are the triple cross hybrids like me who bemoan the absence of a political narrative that pays homage to our interwoven histories and cultures without paying lip service to a revisionist narrative. Maybe it’s just a matter of time.
> Another thing I also found was compared to the traditional Anglophone community, the immigrant groups, Greeks, Italians, Jewish, East Indian, Pakistani, Arab and other community english speakers were much more vocal and not worried about confrontation with the Pur lainers.
Why should they/we be? They/we can live in at least three languages and as immigrants are programmed to adapt much better than so-called “natives” who believe that this land their forefathers stole (from actual Natives) is unchangingly theirs in perpetuity.
And this holds true in francophone allophone circles as well. Even there, francized immigrants feel they owe little if any loyalty to any one single language group. While the separatists will rush to find counterexamples and point to people like Facal, Kotto, Khadir, Núñez, Thi Lac, or Mourani who have “shown courageous solidarity” by making the right noises at the right time, I submit to you that there’s a reason (rhymes with “opportunism”) why this handful of names and faces is more like the complete roster than merely an enumerative example.
> Maybe it’s because you don’t bear the same burden of guilt that those of us of UK descent do
ReplyDeleteAre you for real?!?!... When was the last time you met a Jew, Italian, or East Indian who told you they *weren’t* familiar with guilt?
;-)
> Some of our ancestors messed up along the way […]
Oh boy did we/you ever…
> […] so today we are made to feel an undue sense of forbearance.
There’s a huge difference between atoning for past wrongs and keeling over and playing dead. Also something about the child not paying for the sins of his father. Or something…
> I love the solidarity with immigrant groups […] also can appreciate your comments […] I see it as a game changer, even if nothing in Montreal/Quebec changes because of it.
Huh?!?! What kind of seppie logic is that? That’s like saying that even if they lose a third referendum, it’ll be a victory for the people who will have affirmed their “solidarité” with and for the “cause”. Everything will change in Montreal, Quebec, and Canada as a result of maturing immigrant communities who by and large are making it or have made it. And are leading by example on how to integrate seamlessly in the process.
> With every article and comment, the story gets told for posterity.
I get what you’re saying, but the point isn’t primarily to throw a bone to future anthropologists. Those of us who are won’t be held back, regardless of origin or language, aren’t preparing to become extinct anytime soon. Our drive isn’t a struggle and you’ll rarely if ever hear of us describing ours as a victim’s narrative. Many of us are young professionals and it’s just the next step to taking full possession of our roles as Montrealers, Quebecers, and Canadians. Our town, province, and country belong to us, but we don’t have time to worry about what that “means” to our “identity”.
We’re not fringe. We’re ludicrously mainstream. We don’t operate or have time to belong to hate groups masquerading as legitimate entities. We work hard to belong to professions and trade groups whose names include words like “order” and “association”, not names that evoke defunct socialist and revolutionary battle cries like “resistance”, “movement”, “front”, or “brigade”.
Our purpose in commenting here is to chronicle the facts on the ground as they now exist. And barring the occasional sparring (for sport) with one another here and in real life, including with the delusional separatists who confuse francophone emancipation with pacifying of the new (immigrant) savages, things aren’t going that badly. And guess what: a lot of native francophones are adopting a more moderate view after realizing how little of the story they’ve seen from this side of the fence.
> […] one day the children will ask, ‘WTF happened?’
The first generation of bill 101 immigrant children is now out of school and largely bilingual/trilingual. Even so, they’ve got the language supremacists are scratching their heads wondering how the Charte wasn’t enough to churn out monolingual automatons who are programmed to be uniformly and unquestioningly loyal to the cause of Quebec independence.
> Never bend over to appease the Quebecois victim complex and sense of entitlement. Like you said, they’ll hate us anyway.
The key, as I keep arguing, is integration. Step out of the comfort zone and challenge the way we’ve always done things. The Westmount Rhodesian archetype needs to meld with the Coureur de Bois and whatever exotic, strange newcomers arrive. The conflict and antagonism are intensified when each group retreats and ghettoizes. Common sense seems to prevail the better we frequent and know each other. How ‘bout more of that?
Chénier dit: À Hugo Shebbeare: Je vous cite '' Quel hônte..que vous êtes Monsieur Préfontaine pour le mouvement indépendantiste.
ReplyDeleteJanuary 14, 2011 3:13 PM '' En lisant cela, je comprend que le mouvement indépendantiste à un objectif plus que louable, c'est-à-dire donner un état à un peuple qui comprend tranquillement qu'on est jamais aussi bien servi que par soi-même !
As an "Allo" (I hate labels) born and raised in Quebec, I firmly believe all schools should be bilingual. As far as I'm concerned, we as a society should start off a child's educational path with the goal of making that child the Prime Minister of Canada. Anything less (as a goal) is a failure. When we as citizens of Quebec rise above the politics of language (which happens every single day in Montreal and other pockets of Quebec) and row together in the same direction, we're unstoppable. No one can compete against us. Montreal of the 1960's was a beacon not just for other Canadians but for the World. The best of North America and Europe splashed together made us a multilingual, resilient and boundless powerhouse that was the envy of the rest of the World. The possibilities for Montreal were endless. Mirabel airport was going to be the World's biggest, the high tech Montreal metro was avant garde and the envy of other cities and Expo put us on the Map. We won the bid for the Olympics shortly thereafter based on the stellar show we put on for Expo67. By all accounts, Montreal was the place to be. What happened? Les Habitants took the reigns of power from Les Voyageurs. Quebec became a scared insular ethnic ghetto that began to close off links that were painstakingly built by generations before. Skilled immigrants stopped dreaming about Quebec and started dreaming of Ontario, California and BC.
ReplyDeleteFrench is not in peril in Quebec. It wasn't in 1977 when Rene Levesque predicted that by 2010 French would no longer be spoken here and it isn't in peril in 2011 either. Bill 101 is a colossal mistake. Language and culture is taught in the home by parents and family not by the state. Schools in Quebec (60% dropout rate in some demos) are crap. Government has no business telling individuals and companies how to and what language to conduct their affairs. The market will decide if a company is savvy or not. If a store has bilingual signs and that bothers you, shop at a rival store. No one seems to understand how difficult it is to create a job that actually pays enough to raise a family. Jobs should be viewed as a precious treasure that pays for the things that we hold near and dear like medicare and low tuition universities. Please keep in mind that India and China are knocking at our door step ever loudly. They have our jobs and our way of life in their sight and will not let language or other frivolities from stopping them.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
-- Noam Chomsky
Great blog, keep up the good work!
DrunkGuyReneLevesqueKilled,
ReplyDeleteBravo! Well said. Totally agree. I like this line in particular:
'No one seems to understand how difficult it is to create a job that actually pays enough to raise a family. Jobs should be viewed as a precious treasure that pays for the things that we hold near and dear like medicare and low tuition universities.'
I remember Montreal of the 1960's, and the international flare and grace the city had. It was a welcoming, vibrant, hip city that many of us thought was leading the way. And then the insidious seppie miasma crept into town and dashed many a dream.
I think the time has passed for linguistic justice to mean that Francophones DEMAND and non-Francophones DO as they’re told. With Montreal being 50-50 Francophone / non-Francophone, with immigration rates remaining high, and with the Franco birth rate declining, the Allo-Anglo block has become powerful enough in Montreal to expect that some middle ground is found. The “maitres chez nous” approach might still work in Abitibi, Gaspesie, or Saguenay, but it will no longer fly in Montreal.
ReplyDeleteAs it is, Anglos and Allos have done their part towards linguistic harmony by adding the French language to their repertoire. The militant Francos haven’t done their part, as they continue to cling to the belief in the power of coercion and in ramming things down the throats of people who do not accept their “primacy” through legislation.
In this post Editor posed an important question – what does it take to reach linguistic justice in Quebec? Except that the question should have been directed to a completely different audience.
Ahh, I see the in tolerate Quebecois are up to their antics again. See, when you have a government that spouts intolerance, and people forming hate groups unchallenged, you have a sick society and THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Montreal+synagogues+Jewish+school+vandalized/4117503/story.html
That's because there's no agreement on what constitutes "justice". To many hard-core French-language supremacists, the fact that you could still marginally get by in Montreal in English is a huge problem in and of itself.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it, if you're not a separatist union leader, academic, editorialist, or politician, the hate-filled and jealousy-fueled nationalist and Franco-supremacist trash that passes for "intellectual discourse" in this province doesn't appeal to you anyway.
But where’s the middle ground?
While I occasionally very strongly disagree with the positions of the Editor and some of the participants here, I still find this blog provides some interesting food for thought. At the same time, adski, I agree that some of the ideas expressed here need a wider readership, lest the (Quebec) blogosphere take as gospel everything that outlets like Mario’s Louis' and Vigile's are pumping out like an online Quebec version of FOX News.
Blogs like this one, on the other hand, could *totally* use a French stream.
How about it, Editor?
The Editor doesn't have to answer. Let your rebellion get out in the eyes of the world. This is what he is doing isn't it ? It is enough.
ReplyDeleteForeigners can see your problems.
French can read your problems.
Educated and prosper Anglophones can transpire reading your problems.
You cannot respond on French blogs because they enjoy an ethical code. So people cannot discuss sophism, lies nor anarchy without arguments based on real historical facts.
Chénier dit: À Adski:''50-50 Francophone / non-Francophone in Montreal'', 50 % de non-francophones ne fait pas 50 % d'anglophones. Désolé mais vous semblez faire des raccourcis idéologiques... Les nouveaux arrivants ne devraient pas dans un pays normal s'assimiler à la minorité, en tout cas, je n'ai pas vu ça ailleurs qu'au Québec. C'est pourquoi, il faut être très ferme sur les questions linguistiques au Québec.
ReplyDelete"You cannot respond on French blogs because they enjoy an ethical code."
ReplyDeleteWhat?! The ethical code of fascists? You must be joking.
The French blogs will not publish any opposing opinions at all, no matter how factual they are.
"Les nouveaux arrivants ne devraient pas dans un pays normal s'assimiler à la minorité, en tout cas, je n'ai pas vu ça ailleurs qu'au Québec."
ReplyDeleteHave you ever asked yourself why you don't see it anywhere else in the world? Why only in Quebec the "majority" cannot compete for immigrants in any other way than through coercion, and even that is failing miserably?
Is it some anti-Quebec conspiracy, or is it possible that the Quebec “minority” is really the majority, especially for those who think in continental terms? And immigrants do tend to think in continental terms, since the driving force for many immigrants is to open up to new possibilites, not to tether themselves to one location.
Think about it.
Chénier dit : Adski, si vous voulez parler en termes continentaux comme vous dites, alors apprenez le castillan (espagnol) au plus vite car se sont les hispanophones qui sont le plus nombreux !
ReplyDeleteChénier dit: Et puis Adski, votre logique ne tient pas la route. Devrais-je déménager à Toronto pour apprendre et parler le mandarin au quotidien ? Les gens qui s'installent au Québec et désirent vivre en anglais; et bien ils n'ont pas choisit l'endroit le plus facile pour le faire. Le syndrome du colonisé affecte beaucoup les questions linguistiques car les francophones sont clairement la majorité au Québec. Ce qui n'est pas le cas dans les autres provinces.
ReplyDelete“car se sont les hispanophones qui sont le plus nombreux !”
ReplyDeleteTherefore Canadians should ALL be taught Spanish as second language, instead of French. I’ve said it many times before.
“Devrais-je déménager à Toronto pour apprendre et parler le mandarin au quotidien ?”
The Chinese are smart enough to know that despite being very populous and being an emerging economic power, their language is too complex to become the lingua franca. Also, they are pragmatic enough to know that the world already has a lingua franca. On account of these 2 factors, the Chinese (and other Asians) decided to adopt English as their second language. ESL instruction is a booming business in China these days. And from the looks of it, the Chinese will be taking over the business world in English.
But good examples there. Spanish and Mandarin are definitely two languages to be reckoned with. Unlike Joual, the language of a very annoying and obnoxious continental MINORITY deperately trying to convince others (and even themselves) that they are a majority.
"car les francophones sont clairement la majorité au Québec"
ReplyDeleteYou are an 80% majority in Quebec, just like Italians are a majority in St-Leonard, Greeks in Ville St-Laurent, Natives in the Kahnawake, and Poles in my parents' house. You are the kind of majority that doesn't pack a punch. A majority that doesn't impress anyone. A majority not reckoned with. An insignificant and trivial majority.
It's easy to find ways to turn yourself into a majority on paper, using jurisdictional arithmetic and selective calculations. It's harder to create a majority that *feels* like a majority. You are exactly that type of a majority - one that doesn’t feel like it is one, one that doesn’t get any consideration from others, one that constantly has to re-affirm itself.
To this delusional dude 'Leur majorité se situe à l'ouest du Québec. La francophonie veut et désire respirer sans vous.' - so we are just ejectable from our province, jeez - and people wonder why we use the term ethnic cleansing. So the forced departure by harassment and the rights thieves are okay to you, justifiable to have a corrupt society within Canada, that uses a fear-segregation law to place a wall around itself in a judicial bureaucratic warfare?
ReplyDelete<Cela ne veut pas dire pour le moins que nous ne vous apprécions pas. - Si, nous vous aimons bien. Mais un peuple respectable doit se protéger, lui et son patrimoine. [surtout lorsque sur ce site tout le monde semble souffrir d'un trou de mémoire aussi grand que le Titanic.]' do not worry, the revisionist history goes both ways, but on the side of Judges in QC who are placed, they use it to remove your rights, and as a scapegoat to `reject` all complaints - that there is the issue I have. We know judges are `placed` here, yet I am supposed to accept some bigoted judge's decision as 'okay' - no phracking way, no legalised bullying can be justified, it is at the heart of this struggle.
To Anonymous - `You cannot respond on French blogs because they enjoy an ethical code.`
ReplyDeleteActually we have noticed that the hardliners delete all posts that don`t make them look good (I had to enter my comments on this site because our resident Caveman takes them down) - on both sides - it is a sad and classless way of winning a propaganda battle, by cheating of course.
I invite people to denounce the extremists on either side by publishing their mischief, as we have done here against Préfontaine: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_102938723116346
--- from the group:
Mario Silo (a FB friend)
Last night, January 18, 2011, Mr. Louis Prefontaine did visit a facebook group called "Allaite-In" located at http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=191376997542504
Prefontaine abused of his freedom of speech by harassing and vexing the members there, principally nursing mothers of newborn children. Prefontaine was rude, obnoxious, bossy and refused repeated polite requests by the members of Allaite-In to leave them in peace.
This group documents said events and of said date above.
Allaite-In
Location: Complexe Les Ailes de la mode
Time: 1:00PM Thursday, January 19th