Monday, January 13, 2014

What to Expect if the Charter Passes

It's hard to look into the future with any element of certainty, but in consideration of the Quebec Charter of Values passing into law in its present form (which is not a given), it isn't a stretch to make some predictions as to the ramifications.

To all of those who fervently hope the Charter passes into law, I will open this piece with a familiar Chinese bromide that warns us to be careful what we wish for, because we very well just might get it.

There is an innocent and dangerous fantasy being peddled by Bernard Drainville and company that the Charter of Values will somehow be a uniting force, bringing Quebecers from all backgrounds closer together, making for more harmonious social cohesion.

How do you get to that?
How will forcing certain citizens of faith to give up their religion or their job, in any way shape or form, lead to social harmony?
The law has about as much chance of increasing solidarity as one that would force Quebecers to cheer for the Maple Leafs.

But first, let us not accept on faith the contention by the PQ that the Charter is necessary because there is a serious societal problem in regards to religious fanaticism. Just because Drainville tells that it is so, without a shred of evidence, doesn't make it true.
In fact all evidence is to the contrary. The Quebec Human Rights Tribunal (which has come out strongly against the Charter) has indicated that cases over religious accommodations represent a fraction of its caseload and in fact, the vast majority of cases that hit the tribunal over religion, are about intolerance and outright discrimination.

The Association québécoise d’établissements de santé et de services sociaux, has also said that on the  there have been but a handful of complaints over accommodations, with most managers responding to a survey conducted to measure the seriousness of a so-called 'accommodation' problem indicating that they've never had a complaint. Link
Over and over again, Drainville has alluded to imaginary problems and sadly, has never been called out in the Press over his fantasies.
Just yesterday the Journal de Montreal happily trumpeted a case in Ontario where some idiot demanded not to work with co-student because of she was a female. Link{fr}
It is a measure of how few problems there really are, when a completely isolated case, NOT EVEN IN QUEBEC, is cited as a reference point. 

Despite the absence of empirical evidence that there is a religious problem in Quebec, Charter defenders bravely remind us that the proposed Charter is really a preventative measure, meant to insure that future problems are avoided.
How very convenient a point of view and how naked an admission that there isn't really a discernible problem.

Now you see it...Now you don't!
Oh, if the government only displayed such brilliant forethought and good planning in relation to the health care system, the deficit and the debt problem, all of which are manifestly real.
And so tilting at imaginary windmills makes eminent sense, when the real problems of today are unsolvable by a clueless and hapless government which in a desperate attempt to distract, adopts the shifty and moral integrity of a cheap con artist who uses sleight of hand to deceive some poor dufus in a game of three-card Monte.

I am reminded of the referendum campaign wherein the YES side erected posters that attempted to allay fears that voting for Quebec sovereignty would affect the new country's economic situation by assuring voters that the Canadian currency would be retained, a promise that could not be made realistically, without the consent of Ottawa.
The absurdity of showing a Canadian Loonie on a poster exhorting citizens to reject Canada should not be ignored and demonstrates the utter contempt that the PQ bears for the electorate.
Most governments go through the motions of pretending that voters are imbued with half a sense, even if patently untrue, but the PQ makes no pretense, successfully passing off one ridiculous and moronic idea after another, proving the old political axiom that there can be no overestimating the gullibility or stupidity of the public.

So according to the Drainville narrative, when the Charter passes, people of faith will throw off the articles of their religious faith like the slaves of Egypt discarding the yoke of oppression and the symbols of their domination, setting off on a new course of freedom and Godless liberation.

Muslim, Jewish and Sikh doctors, nurses, teachers and assorted health workers will willingly shed their hijabs, kippahs, turbans and crosses because the law demands it, a fantasy as idiotic and dangerous as believing that the cafeteria in the Jewish General hospital will celebrate its liberation from Kosher restraints by putting pulled pork sandwiches and lobster bisque on the menu.

I would remind those who believe in this fantasy that governments rule with the consent of the people and when that consent is withheld by a significant portion of citizens, all Hell usually breaks loose.

Remember the student revolt against tuition hikes and how it almost brought this province to its knees?
Well,  that is nothing compared to the bucket of hurt that can be expected when the devout are told to give up their job or their religion.

I'll remind readers again that the student demonstrations, despite the mayhem, remained rather peaceful and pacifistic, with a couple of rare exceptions (like the metro smoke bomb attack).
What would have happened had those students really taken on the government, I shudder to think!

Telling people of faith that they should check their religious beliefs at the door, is as absurd as telling a pregnant women to not be pregnant during working hours.
Those of  little or no faith cannot fathom the absurdity of the demand not to eat kosher or Halal for a couple of hours a day or not to wear a hijab, kippah or turban at work.
This misjudgment of the PQ government and Charter supporters is so blaring that when the coming repercussions manifest, they will be blindsided by the devastating push back.

I'm not going to make dire predictions of anarchy and chaos, what will be will be, but if Charter supporters honestly believe that all will work out just fine, they are in for the shock of their lives.

What will happen when whole institutions and their staff become scofflaws, utterly rejecting the government edict to comply with the religious ban?
What inspector will dare walk into the lion's den (excuse the biblical reference) to impose the government's will, when the entire hospital staff is ready for a confrontation?

Who is the government going to fine or punish, when it is the government itself that pays the bills?

What will be when they tell essential doctors, nurses and support staff that they are suspended in critical care scenarios with no substitutes available?

What happens when resisters file thousand and thousands of lawsuits against the government, all with a better than average chance of succeeding, putting the government in jeopardy of having to pay out billions in damages?

So the question remains....who will cave first, the government or the resistors?
I know who I'm betting on.

I want to remind those in favour of the Charter who believe that the will of the religiously devout will be broken by a simple act of law and that compliance will be the order of the day, that as they say down south....
...T'aint gonna happen.

Remember the obstinacy of the Christians in Roman times, fed to the lions in a test of faith. When it comes to religion commitment, not much has changed for those who believe.

In a test of will and nerve, between the minority of devout Muslim women in hijabs, kippah wearing Jews turban clad Sikhs and their secular supporters, I'll bet on the meek... It won't even be close.


  1. Maria A.

    The Charter will pass Editor, most Quebecers support it--just look at the polls including some anglophones and allophones.

    1. I hope it brings the wrath of God (pun intended) down on the heads of the separatists! Maybe it will shake some sense into these racist bigots. It will give them just an idea of the trouble that their supremacism is going to cause. I don't think half the population realizes what is going on under their very noses.

    2. No, Maria...the majority of Francophones supports it, but their opinion is not the only one who counts since in Montreal there are not only Francophones. 75% of non- Francophones says NO to the Charter. Do you see any winning number for the PQ??

    3. Kim

      Religion has no place in the public domain ! Do as you please in your personal life, just don't expose us to your ideology that doesn't want to follow our laws and democracy! The way I see it, if it were purposed by an English leader everything would be fine and dandy.

    4. So your idea of moving towards democracy is removing personal freedoms? How does someone else wearing religious clothing effect you, is what I'd like to know?

    5. @kim

      "...if it were purposed by an English leader everything would be fine and dandy."

      hey you understand things too? i was lonely here. welcome to no dogs or anglophones!

    6. I expect the PQ to run on this during the upcoming spring election. If they win and If it passes, expect it to be struck down by the Supreme Court because of Charter violations (Charter of Human rights). That will then trigger the standard Separatist backlash/humiliation battle cry. They will use whatever political capital that generates into calling another referendum. All this was clearly laid out by Marois in 2010. It's a calculated political strategy. If it fails, the PQ will be sidelined for the next few election cycles.

    7. @edm

      "How does someone else wearing religious clothing effect you, is what I'd like to know?"

      dude how does a public servant wearing a big parti québécois shirt affect you? my religion says i need to go around naked all the time. how does this affect you?

    8. Lord Dorchester,
      Hopefully there's a way around this where both the Charter will not be enforced, and there won't be a third referendum.

    9. A.Nellis


      Le même effet qu'a le drapeau québécois sur les anglo- fédéralistes du Québec,ce n'est pas le tissu,c'est ce qu'il représente.

    10. A.Nellis

      @Sylvain Raciste

      J'avais cru remarqué que les fédéralistes Québécois avaient un penchant pour les trous de cul.

    11. "my religion says i need to go around naked all the time. how does this affect you?"

      I get to have a good laugh?

    12. @Editor - way to let the racist separatist get the last word by deleting my comment. You might want to learn French, it'll help you understand that A.Nellis' comment is quite anti-Anglo.

    13. @whowhatzit

      sure you do. do you also understand my point of view, or are you stuck at dick jokes level?

      @sylvain raciste

      please stop being a racist mate. it's forbidden here.

    14. A.Nellis

      "Fédéralistes Québécois" s'applique a beaucoup de francophones.

    15. B.R

      Religion and race are two different things.

    16. @b.r

      jf, cutie003, anonymous coward, lord dorchester thatguy and sylvain raciste use terms like racist, bigot, scum, idiots, nazi, french supremacist, evil and xenophobic randomly. it's called quebec bashing. and it always means the same simple thing: "i'm a hardcore canadian nationalist, and i'll use whatever mean, including the dirtiest smearing, to remain canadian." yes mate it is a sad sight.

    17. B.R

      Yes i know it really disgusting people.

    18. @BR

      Anything for that elusive "Oui" vote right BR? Even if it means bullying minority communities into either doing as we say or move out of Quebec. Now that's disgusting.

    19. FROM ED
      Message to A.Nelis, You might have noticed this is an English blog. EDITOR does allow posting in French but if you want to be read by everyone you should post in english. Posting in French was the downfall of S.R. In the end no one was paying attention to him > Ed

    20. Ed,

      A.Nellis is S.R. He is still posting here but now he's using a bogus English name. He may be posting as B.R and some other names as well, clearly flaunting the rules of the blog.

    21. @durham

      you are paranoid mate. but they are all out to get you.

    22. It's not paranoia. It's very easy to recognize S.R's comments, no matter how he identifies himself. Refer to the Editor's note below.

  2. The expression "tilting at windmills" comes from Don Quixote, where the main character imagined that windmills were actually giant enemies. The windmills were real, not imaginary, but the giants were not. In this case, the government is doing even worse than tilting at windmills since it's attacking bystanders (minorities) who have nothing to do with the identity issues that the Quebecois have brought on themselves. If a woman in a hijab or a kid with a kirpan is an affront to someone's identity in a land where they're already given free reign to practice their economically and socially backward policies (see subsidised private schools, universities and daycare when the middle and upper classes most benefit from them), it's a sad sign of my Quebec.

    1. You're right, the main issue is the Quebecois identity problems.
      They just don't know who they are and attack whoever does.

    2. B.R


    3. A.Nellis


      Les canadiens sont quoi exactement?

      1.Des faux-Américains (wannabe)?

      2.Un mélange indéfinissable ou un ramassis de cultures et de sous-cultures diverses?

      3. 1+2

      Vous n'êtes pas en position pour donner des leçons aux Québécois en matière d'identité

    4. Au moins, nous Canadiens, à difference de vous autres, en avons une...d'identité.

    5. From Ann
      @A Nellis...Funny that Quebecois Celine Dion ran to the US to earn her millions and decided to stay there and have her family there. I know at least two Quebecois physicians who moved to the United States to practice. Then there are all the Quebecois who run down to Maine and Florida and shop in Plattsburgh and Burlington. There there is the Journal de Montreal who is obsessed with reporting on all the American celebrities. All the Quebecois who shop at Walmart, Target and all the US based chains, eat at McDonalds and Wendy's go to all the US movies, listen to all the US pop stars and run to their concerts. Sounds like Quebecois also are American wannabes! Basically francophones embrace the same US culture that anglophone Canadians if the Quebecois feel they have their own identity despite embracing everything US, then of course Canadians can also have a Canadian identity even though they embrace what comes from the US.

      Being Canadian is about citizenship and having pride in that citizenship, you can be Canadian while also having Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Eastern European roots. Multiculturalism is a separate issue from having pride in being Canadian. If you think people can't be Canadian because they are from other cultures and there is no Canadian culture then I can also argue how can there be a Quebecois identity when francophone Quebecers were originally immigrants from France.

    6. Jones,
      We may not be able to change their intolerance, but we can at least expose them when they fail to come up with an argument to counter yours.

    7. "The continuing dispute over “political correctness” in the academy is, in significant part, the consequence of a transformation in the core idea of the left: the weakening, even breakdown, of the ideals of a common humanity that have animated it for more than two centuries. Instead, the left in recent years has had trouble going beyond what has come to be called “identity politics”–a politics that is rooted more in group self-assertion than in attempts to create broad alliances. Of course, oppressed groups must always struggle to overcome their second-class status; equality demands no less. But what began in the late 1960s as an assertion of dignity by various groups, a remedy for exclusion and denigration and a demand by the voiceless for representation, has developed its own habits and methods of silencing. " - Todd Gitlin, “From Universality to Difference: Notes on the Fragmentation of the Idea of the Left”

  3. I don't know if the PQ actually need to make people think. The average PQ supporter doesn't really think.
    It is not even possible to have a discussion about the charter, they just reapeat the same thing over and over.
    There is a reason for which the PQ published the answer guide to use during Christmas.

  4. The response to Kemal Attaturk's outlawing of the fez in Turkey in 1925 was rioting.

  5. Editor, don't forget article 40 and 41 of the Charter, conveying the supremacist idea that French is superior to any other language and far more dignified than every other language.

    Paul, the only identity Qcois have is the one manufactured, shaped by the PQ and bestowed upon them like an armour to wear...

    1. "...don't forget article 40 and 41 of the Charter, conveying the supremacist idea that French is superior..."

      please prove that this is pure bullshit by not providing a link to back it up.

      "...the only identity Qcois have is the one manufactured..."

      denying french canadian identity is a racist opinion mate. watch your steps cause it's forbidden here.

    2. Hey @student you should learn to look things up before commenting.
      Unless you just enjoy being dismissed as an intellectual lightweight ;)

      40. The preamble to the Charter of human rights and freedoms (chapter C-12)
      is amended by inserting the following paragraph after the fourth paragraph:
      “Whereas equality between women and men and the primacy of the French
      language as well as the separation of religions and State and the religious
      neutrality and secular nature of the State are fundamental values of the Québec
      41. Section 9.1 of the Charter is amended by adding the following sentence
      at the end of the first paragraph: “In exercising those freedoms and rights, a
      person shall also maintain a proper regard for the values of equality between
      women and men and the primacy of the French language, as well as the
      separation of religions and State and the religious neutrality and secular nature
      of the State, while making allowance for the emblematic and toponymic
      elements of Québec’s cultural heritage that testify to its history.”


    3. NewCA,

      You may be surprised to know that Imperatif-francais shares your disagreement with articles 40 and 41 of the Charter affirming the values of State secularism and religious neutrality and the equality between women and men, and providing a framework for accommodation requests. The difference is, for them French primacy is not enough. They want absolute usage of French and total avoidance of any other language in anywhere public.

    4. "denying french canadian identity is a racist opinion mate"

      It's a universalist option that looks for commonality amongst people rather than distinctions and uniqueness.

      Harping on one's uniqueness is a narcissistic option, but if not mingled with politics, it can be tolerable. This narcissism of small differences becomes less tolerable, however, when navel-gazing identity seekers get hold of the levers of power and make "recognition" of this uniqueness by others their political objective.

      "You cannot protect your own civil rights at the expense of another. That is when civil right leaders become nationalist, racist and nativist" - K.W. Lee

    5. @kevin

      exactly. nothing in there that conveys that "french is superior" and "far more dignified" than any other language. thanks mate.

    6. @adski

      "It's a universalist option that looks for commonality amongst people rather than distinctions and uniqueness."

      it's possible to look at both. there are distinction between nations. i don't think it's constructive to deny it. you are advocating for a john lennon style borderless world. i admit it would be nice, but i'm not intelligent enough to imagine going from here to there. in the mean time, one more border along the canadian rift will soothe things.

    7. @student

      Wow, you cannot read.

      You literally have the definition in front of you and you claim it says the exact opposite of what it says.


    8. "there are distinction between nations. "

      Don't underestimate a top-down nature of these "distinctions", drummed into people's heads by the elites. Culture today is also very much a top-down phenomenon, its primary role being to prop the modern state and give it legitimacy. cultures start off based on something real at the bottom, but in its finished form are pretty much engineered up top, based on selective and revised history, spiced up with large doses of mythology, martyrology, and mystique.

      Also, it's noteworthy how people like you thrive on "distinctions" but at the same time work hard to arrange them hierarchically, i.e. invent reasons for why one identity has to be recognized and worshiped, while other less-worthy identities have a duty to look up to the "main" identity and an obligation to disengage from public life. So not only you oppose universality, but you're not to keen of equality of differences either. To feel good about yourself, you don't only need to be different, but also "unique", and have your particular variation "recognized", "asserted", and beam it out ("rayonne") for all to see.

      Behind this alleged "care" for your culture and nation lie layers upon layers of narcissism.

  6. I suspect the goal is actually to have it passed, then have it be challenged in court and thrown out as being against the constitution. Then, they will claim that Quebec passed a legitimate law voted in by a majority in the national assembly and it was thrown out by the evil overbearing Canadians and that damn constitution, hence separation is needed.

    Even those (French) against the charter will blindly rally to the defence of QC against the evil Canada and this will create a surge for separatism.

    That said, I don't know how long a process it will be to get challenged.

    1. this comment is almost good. just swap evil for different, remove damn and remove blindly. and change evil for different again there by the end of the second paragraph.

  7. Let's apply the double standard those supremacist hillbillies use, the so called "flexible double standard of the majority".

    Since the majority of NOUS wants the Charter, be it, it is valid.

    Let's apply their "logic" to our Constitution:

    Since the majority of the Canadian provinces wanted the Constitution, be it, it is valid because it was adopted by the majority.

    As you can see, neither the PQ nor its crackpots have a leg to stand.

    1. A.Nellis


      Un peu d'éducation :

      Espérant que votre niveau de culture vous permet de lire le français.

    2. "Nuit des long Couteaux"

      Exactly the reason the sovereignist movement is dead - they keep clinging to this kind of melodramatic
      bullshit instead of focusing on solving REAL problems.

      C'est toujours la faute des autres!

    3. Mon cher Peureux Anonyme,

      Hey yes, it's never very pleasant to call back of this beautiful moment of Canadian democracy: make vote secretly a constitution while the only party in disagreement is absent is not very franc-jeux (or fair play if you prefer) in my humble opinion.
      Also know that this fact was verified many a time and contrevérifié by numerous specialists (of any political allegiances, I see you coming). Thus, treated the latter of " bullshit ", to resume your so elegant expression is strictly false!
      Moreover, I would like to know what are your " REAL problems ". Does it exist "falses" problems? If yes, I am curious to know your criteria to distinguish the truths of the false.

      Bien à vous,
      P.S: I practise my English, I'm sorry if there are faults.

    4. "P.S: I practise my English, I'm sorry if there are faults."

      Yeah, no fucking kidding.

      Tell you what, how about you put more energy on learning English before trying to ban it from Quebec and then maybe will have 'une conversation'.

      No wonder they hate English so much, they write it like 5-year-olds.

    5. Mon (très) cher peureux anonyme,

      Premièrement, toutes mes excuses, je ne voulais pas vous offenser. offenser à ce point. Figurez-vous donc que je sais que mon anglais n'est pas très bon, et oui, une langue, ça s'apprend par essais et erreurs ! C'est pour cela que j'aurai aimé une certaine compréhension de votre part, ou du moins ne pas baser votre réponse uniquement sur cela.

      Au lieu de ça, j'ai récolter un message bourré de mépris qui ne me montre malheureusement que votre arrogance.

      Deuxièmement , dois-je penser que vous considérer toute personne OSANT être en désaccord avec votre opinion est souverainiste (si j'interprète bien votre ''they)? Eh bien, permettez-moi de vous dire que vous n'êtes pas très bon détective, car je fait pas partie de cette ''terrible'' espèce !

      Troisièmement, vous ne répondez pas à mes questions. En avez-vous peur ? en êtes-vous incapable ?

      Finalement, j'aimerais finir en disant que je ne pense pas que je déteste et désire bannir tant que ça l'anglais, puisque j'ai fait l'effort de parler avec vous dans cette belle langue.

      Bien à vous,

  8. On Twitter from Dan Delmar (CJAD)

    Dan Delmar @delmarhasissues 43m
    Citizens are testifying starting tomorrow at La #Charte hearings, but I want you to testify on #CJAD first! Call in at 7pm: 514-790-0800.

  9. Gone again, eh? I don't really feel like typing it all out a third time. Do you have a spam blocker or something set up? I wonder if it falsely read my comment as being an advertisement for Richler or Abella's books.

    1. "I don't really feel like typing it all out a third time."

      don't worry mate; it wasn't that good anyways.

  10. If the charter of values passes, I will be deeply angered, but I won't be surprised. I recall reading in Irving Abella's None is too Many about a SSJB petition with 128,000 signatures delivered to the House of Commons calling for an end to "All immigration, and especially Jewish immigration" to Canada. After reading Mordecai Richler's Oh Canada! Oh Quebec! Requiem for a Divided Country, things have started to become clearer and clearer. In August 1988, LaPresse published an article titled "Outrement se découvre un 'problème juif'" attacking the Hassidic community. There is a long history of intolerance towards religious minorities in Quebec. A sick, disgusting history, we have. Even more disgusting is that things haven't really changed, even today.

    1. @edm

      "There is a long history of intolerance towards religious minorities in Quebec."

      even if there was such a history, the current charter proposal would not be part of the string because it also targets majority catholicism religious superstitions.

      "A sick, disgusting history, we have."

      tell us more. what is so disgusting about your history edm?

    2. Examples of la charte des voyous promoting more hatred in Quebec (a look at the past, moving forward):

      This was going on soon after the Charte des Voyous was announced:

      A huge Fuck You goes out to any seps who even try to justify this garbage.

      Then again, this is why the sovereignist movement is on life support (is it really any surprise?)

    3. @anonymous coward

      "A huge Fuck You goes out..."

      great argument mate. keep it up.

    4. "sovereignist movement is on life support"

      Comme la EMSB ?

    5. @Student "even if there was such a history, the current charter proposal would not be part of the string because it also targets majority catholicism religious superstitions."

      It's sad that after probably 100 times that you've been corrected on this you still keep pushing the lie that is it will be equally discriminatory. Christians will still be able to wear the cross the primary religious symbol of their faith so long as it is not comically oversized, kippas, turbans and hijabs are all banned regardless of size. How you persist in supporting this idiotic and pointless bill is beyond me, if this is the kind of legislation that you hope an independent Quebec would be able to pass with it's new found legislative power I can't imagine there would be too many people libre in Quebec .

    6. @thatguy

      you mean that kippas and turbans are comical? i don't agree mate. but they just don't fit in a saaq or ramq office. it's a secular state we want after all. what about hare krisna weirdos? can't we ask them to dress properly for their government job shift?

      "if this is the kind of legislation that you hope an independent Quebec..."

      of course. i'm all for secularity mate. aren't you?

      "I can't imagine there would be too many people libre in Quebec ."

      you mean libre to show up at work in a government office with whatever comical outfit they please? that's right there wouldn't be many of these.

    7. These days, the size of tattoos is getting very comical.

    8. @student
      Well now we have more proof that you're an idiot or a liar.
      "even if there was such a history, "

      Look up Maurice Duplessis and the Jehovah's witnesses. Or Lionel Groulx and any other prominent french Canadian and anti-semitism.

      But you won't do that. That would require thinking, which you are not capable of doing.


    9. To be fair, English Canadian politicians were just as bad. Still, if this type of prejudice were as common in the rest of Canada as it were in Quebec, there would be more than one province proposing a Charter of Values.

  11. Replies
    1. Normal,La charte vise aussi les cathos

    2. I was stunned by his command of English and his openness to alternate groups. He gave an inspring first interview in English where he talked about gays and inclusiveness.
      So I looked up his background and wasn't surprised at the path of achievement this Cardinal has lived. He was born near Quebec City but was educated in English in the USA.
      He is a kind, educated and modern priest, a wonderful choice by the Pope.
      I['m not a Catholic, but rejoice in the elevation of such a quality cleric to the vaunted position of Cardinal.

    3. Yes, it's nice to see someone selected that does not live in the dark ages. Let's hope that the population of quebec see the man in the same way and not some rebel to the Catholic Church even though practicing religion is at an all time low.

    4. @cutie003

      "Yes, it's nice to see someone selected that does not live in the dark ages."

      you are correct, although not the way you think you are. the priest doesn't come from the dark ages but the antiquity. now that's outdated. i suggest you look for someone with a less obvious bias than a priest to advise on social secularity mate.

  12. Tsk tsk tsk! And to think this all started in a hicktown called Hérouxville conjuring a "Code of Conduct" against exaggerated Muslim rituals, a jerk burg with growing Muslim population of zero!

    1. 22 Minutes correspondent Abdul Butt shares a moment with Hérouxville town councillor André Drouin, the man who inspired the Quebec Charter of Values with his controversial 2007 document called Hérouxville Standards.

    2. Forget above link, go here, at 7:45 mark.

  13. Hi there,

    I'm not new here, as I've been following this wonderful blog for quite some time now. Before I get into my first official post, I'd like to thank the Editor for the energy he puts into this site. I find it informative, but most importantly level headed and fair...qualities that, in my opinion, we are in short supply of here in Quebec currently.

    With all that being said, I'd like my first post to be in rebuttal to a quote from one of this blogs most professional trolls.

    "dude how does a public servant wearing a big parti québécois shirt affect you?"

    This quote is a perfect example of how certain people are dead set on ignoring the core of this non issue. First of all, a PQ voter working behind a state appointed desk is a PQ supporter regardless of what shirt they might be wearing...whether anyone likes it or I'm not sure what clothing has to do with anything. For society to operate properly, we need to trust that person to be unbiased and fair. If they cannot be trusted to uphold these qualities, they should be removed from their position or preferably not get the job in the first place. What they may or may not be wearing has little bearing on how that person might act. If someone wants to refute this logic, may I ask that they please provide proof (from a reputable study) that wearing an article such as a hijab causes the mind altering effects that the likes of Mr. Drainville would have us believe. Otherwise, please do everyone here a favour and leave the internet.

    " my religion says i need to go around naked all the time. how does this affect you?"

    Really? This was happening so regularly that we need this charter to stop this from happening any more? When since the founding of this country has this ever happened? I hear arguments like this way too often from Charter Supporters. Come on, anyone using this argument is smarter than this. At least I certainly hope they are! Why now are people afraid of a fictional problem? Oh wait, never mind...I just's because the PQ handed out free cool-aid and got half this fracking province to start believing in the Boogie Man. Such a sad state of affairs.

    I wasn't born in this province, but I've grown to love it as my own. I love the geography, I love the weather, I love the people...but I absolutely hate the politics. I dream of the day where everyone stands together and calls out these manipulative power hungry politicians for who and what they are. Let's hope that day comes soon, for I fear that Quebec is starting to slide down a dark and dangerous slippery slope.

    1. @the rationalist

      "a PQ voter working behind a state appointed desk is a PQ supporter regardless of what shirt they might be wearing...whether anyone likes it or I'm not sure what clothing has to do with anything."

      so, you show up at saaq. the clerk is clad with "le quebec un pays" shirt, pants, hat and pin. will you go beserk if his boss tell him to put something less ostentacious on? of course you won't. even if the right to express a political opinion is in the canadian charter of rights. do you get it now the rationalist?

      "When since the founding of this country has this ever happened? (...) Why now are people afraid of a fictional problem?"

      the frequency of the "problem" is irrelevant when one tries to decipher what's right and what's wrong.

      then you invoke a "fictional problem". i must understand that if the frequency of government religious clad dudes was higher it would be a real problem in your humble opinion. now that's odd. why would it be a problem mate? and also, why can't you understand by yourself that it's easier to prevent than to cure?

      " I dream of the day where everyone stands together and calls out these manipulative power hungry politicians..."

      you mean the quebec or ottawa liberals? or is it the conservatives? or are you refering to usa gop? or is it the chinese "communists"? please name one political party who is not power hungry and at least a little bit manipulative. only the bloc québécois fits your criteria it seems. are you a fan?

    2. @student
      I have to admit, I've been amused for quite some time at your uncanny ability to twist words around to serve your narrow field of vision and selective understanding. But, now that I have experienced this first hand, I'm even more impressed. If you really care about your province as you seem to suggest, why don't you try and contribute in a more meaningful way to these conversations? This is a sincere question btw. That said, for my own experiment, I'll indulge in one volley of banter with you in hopes that you might actually respond directly to my questions and comments on your second try.

      "so, you show up at saaq. the clerk is clad with "le quebec un pays" shirt, pants, hat and pin. will you go beserk if his boss tell him to put something less ostentacious on? of course you won't. even if the right to express a political opinion is in the canadian charter of rights. do you get it now the rationalist?"

      Rather than accepting my challenge by producing evidence to refute my logic, you manufacture a completely different scenario and then make assumptions about how I would feel during said fantasy. Truthfully, unless the SAAQ clerk is wearing something actually inappropriate and against regulations due to safety and/or moral regulations I really have no problem with it. In fact, I would actually have issue with their boss telling them to change their you know why? Because I'm not a big baby and can actually accept people for who they are regardless of what they believe in/vote for and celebrate our natural born right to freely express ourselves...unlike many charter supporters. Thanks for coming out though "mate". Would you like another chance to refute my logical with actual proof, or will you just avoid that intellectual challenge all together again and do your same old magic trick?

      "the frequency of the "problem" is irrelevant when one tries to decipher what's right and what's wrong."

      OOOOKKKK....right. What a wonderful maze your mind is! So then, how does one determine wrong from right without any metrics to measure....gee whiz, wouldn't some actual numbers and case studies of how this "dark growing problem" has impacted society in negative ways? What is this powerful method that you suggest we use to determine right from wrong without evidence such as this?

      "i must understand that if the frequency of government religious clad dudes was higher it would be a real problem in your humble opinion. now that's odd."

      Here you go again, putting thoughts and words that don't belong to me into text and then immediately judging me for them. Well done! Besides, I'm not sure you even fully read or understood my point because I'm struggling to find a logical connection between what your'e saying and my original comment. Now, for my favourite part, "why can't you understand by yourself that it's easier to prevent than to cure?"...until you can prove that there is something to actually cure, why all the fuss. You know what, I think we should spend millions of dollars creating a vaccine for the Banana Fever. I have no proof that it has caused any health concerns whatsoever or if it even exists...but I've got a feeling in my bones that it's gonna be bad! Does that sound like a reasonable way to spend tax payer dollars to you? Please tell me that you don't believe in the flu vaccine so I can laugh my self into a hysterical irony induced stupor.

      And finally, " please name one political party who is not power hungry and at least a little bit manipulative". Where in my comment did I conclude that only Quebec politicians are power hungry and manipulative? More importantly, if politicians everywhere share these unfortunate qualities, is my desire for Quebec politicians to set the example of good leadership any less valid?

      Thanks for stopping by student.

    3. From Rich
      I enjoyed your rebuttal! The silence is deafening!!

  14. FROM ED
    Rationalist, your words are as welcome to us as you aretyourself. You certainly have the picture which hopefuly will soon be changing when an election is announced. Good luck.

  15. FROM ED
    EDITOR, as a working member of the Quebec Liberal Party I have suggested to the leaders that we use Cardinal LaCroix to reach out to Priests across the Provnce asking them to stand up for what's right. If we can reach a few souls in each congregation it can move mountains in the hearts of people. We are not crossing the boundaries of Church and state but the boundaries of good and evil should over shadow any misgivings about Ch. @ St.
    Second, i suggested they send people to each of the outlying communities to find a VIP ( someone well known ad well likes) in each district and ask him to start a group of people tired of the PQ tyranny. Ed.


    1. Media hypocrisy on full display in Quebec Charter debate

  17. Lisee and Drainville are liars. Plain and simple.

    The only looming crisis in Quebec is the extinction of the PQ, and this is only a crisis for the PQ itself.

    In order to distract everyone from the sheer incompetence of the party the PQ has contacted a massive game with one goal and one goal only: hope to convince enough people that this issue is serious enough that they must vote PQ in the next election.

    However, given that half of all Quebecers have never met someone who is black, or Chinese, or muslim, or who wears a hijab, what are the odds that people are going to head into a voting booth and check the circle next to their local PQ candidate?


  18. Wow - is Quebec the only place that's actually going backward.

    We already had this debate almost ten years ago, and the bottom line hasn't changed: Anyone who supports this is a racist.

    You can try and excuse or justify your way out of it, but you either accept those who are different than you are or you don't, and if you
    don't accept others, you're a bigot.

    Now watch the racist little seppies cry Quebec Bashing because we're opposed to their racism.

    1. A.Nellis

      "Wow - is Quebec the only place that's actually going backward"

      Au contraire,plusieurs pays dont le canada nous appuient.Ce sont les religions qui nous ramènent en arrière.

    2. A.Nellis

      Je voulais dire plusieurs canadiens,évidemment.

    3. Quelle est la différence entre une catholique et un Qcois séparatiste ? Aucune. Tous les deux ont une religion : la catholique pour les premiers, la péquiste pour les seconds.

    4. @newca

      haha. are you a humorist?

  19. In the meantime, again a piece of concrete fell from a Montreal bridge, totally damaged one vehicle, narrowly missed killing its passenger and damaging three others vehicles. And all the provincial government brings on the table is the Charter affirming the values of State secularism and religious neutrality and the equality between women and men, and providing a framework for accommodation requests?

    1. Now, now Troy, stop making know how much they hate it when you do that.

      So far, one "study" on the Charte des Voyous has already cost tax payers about $250K and now, you can bet this "hearing" on the charter will easily run into the seven-figure mark.

      We already went through this with the Bouchard-Taylor commission, but hey why not flog a dead horse.

      Only in politics can such a gang of buffoons get away with misappropriating funds on pointless meetings. If Apple or Walmart were run the way the province is run, they'd flame out within months.

    2. @troy

      you're using the easiest and least valid trick mate. there will always be something more dramatic then what one is focusing on. it doesn't mean the later does not deserve some focus.

      who are you trying to convince with this shit mate?

    3. @anonymous coward

      "We already went through this with the Bouchard-Taylor commission..."

      exactly, and the useless liberals did nothing with it. once again the pq has the guts to tackle this thing. thanks for pointing that out mate.

    4. @student - Why do you call everyone 'mate'? Are you on a pirate ship?

    5. Actually, the Bouchard-Taylor Commission concluded that the problem with reasonable accommodation rested with the Francophone majority, not with the various ethnic minorities in Quebec.

    6. @durham

      no it didn't, but it did recommend the ban of religious outfits for police, judges, etc. everyone in a position to enforce the law.

    7. @theo

      i try to be friendly mate. i didn't know pirates say this.

  20. - these hearings are a total waste of time and money - nothing will change and they will use it as a division tool for the upcoming election. French against English and Canada and then as support for a referendum - it is all so obvious even the seps must see through the BS. Only an idiot would not realize what is going on here. Get everyone heated up about absolutely nothing and see where the shit flies when it hits the fan. They are really grasping for straws now. Desperation for a majority government come hell or high water. Idiots. God, imagine if they were really running their own country if they are this crazy as a minority government? Sham.

    1. They cannot imagine how much harm they have been doing to the province.

      I was in NY for Xmas and upon saying to come from QC, Canada, one woman asked me what a hell it was going there. She also told me in some American newspapers the idea that Quebec is anti-English, ergo anti- American, is taking shape very fast. Be careful, PQ: if Americans get convinced you hate them, you will be in deep deep doodoo...

    2. Hopefully the controversy surrounding the secularism charter will be broadcast on a segment of 60 Minutes or another American newsmagazine. The bigotry in this backwater of a province needs to be fully exposed. There is a large community of religious Americans and perhaps they will refrain from visiting Quebec and spending their tourism dollars here, or investing in the province.

      No American in his/her right mind would start or maintain a business here if they were fully aware of the restrictive language laws, generalized xenophobia, excessive bureaucracy, high corporate tax rates, all-powerful unions, corruption and the very poor work ethic of the populace.

    3. I was out on Crescent street for New Years Eve and one of the people I was with went outside for a cigarette and upon her return to our table she mentioned that she had been talking to some visitors from New York while outside. They said it was a surprise to meet someone who was nice to them because so far all they had experienced was people who were rude to them because of language. They were not enjoying their visit to Montreal at all.

      I`m sure these tourists went home and told all of their friends and family. Multiply that over and over and we should not be surprised that they feel Quebec is anti-English. Actually Quebec IS anti-English and we have know it for a long time, it is just that the truth is finally getting out.

    4. A.Nellis

      "I`m sure these tourists went home and told all of their friends and family"

      Qu'ils ont croisé une candidate au cancer du poumon fumant une cigarette à - 25 degré ?

    5. The usual deflection, exactly what I expected. Such an intelligent, well thought-out response.

    6. A.Nellis

      Ma réponse est au même niveau que votre réflexion et de votre monde imaginaire.Vous vous placer souvent dans la têtes des autres comme vous venez de le faire?

    7. What do you expect, Laurie? That's how they communicate: through monologues, regurgitated sentences learnt by heart, programmed to miss any point in any conversation.

      We should ignore Nell-is (the same name as The Old Curiosity Shop's character, Nell Trent, a little girl).

      Americans are becoming more and more aware of the PQ manufactured, election-driven charter. If I were an American, I would declare a total embargo against Kebekland.
      The only way to win against the PQ and its hillbillies is to expose them, day by day and for sure ignore trolls (S.R=Nellis, student...)

    8. @laurie

      hey i was on crescent street the other night and my friend went out for a while. when she came back she told me she had met some tourists from new york. they were very happy with their holidays so far. they had come over to get a different feel from all other american big cities. and they got plenty of it. they felt at ease wherever they went with locals seizing the occasion to show off their english skills. of course on many occasions they got stuck because someone couldn't understand them but they expected that as they knew quebec was a mainly francophone state. they took their phrasebook out all the time! they thought it was great to feel like traveling when they were merely seven hours drive from home.

      i guess our anecdotes cancel each other don't they laurie?

    9. A.Nellis

      Nos angryphones sont des mésadaptés sociaux chroniques.Des éternels malheureux qui rêvent de devenir de vrais anglos,comme les Américains ou les British.

    10. Dear S.R
      Your writing style and grammar is such that changing names cannot hide your identity, which is an alias anyways, so I can't really see the point....

    11. FROM ED
      We all know that Nellis is S.R. He's pissed off because no one is answering him. He needs to realize that he is the only one posting in French which is also why nobodyb is answering him. Ed

    12. Now S.R is posting in French as Anonymous - see below. Stop breaking the rules S.R! Posting under Anonymous is not permitted on this blog.

  21. 'that Quebec is anti-English, ergo anti- American,'

    Well it is...

  22. They do hate them until they want something then they're very good at kissing ass. If they ever separate from Canada, you will never see the likes of such ass kissing. When they visit playing pseudo country, that's all you see; mooch mooch. Sickening hypocrites.

  23. At last! There is finally a truth in what student writes:

    ...i'm not intelligent enough...

  24. Ok ok. I am all for the downfall of the PQ but I need to say my piece. Any government that dictates what a person wears in public is crap. On the flip side. Any RELIGION that dictates what a person wears in public is also crap. I saw a post comparing a nun to a woman wearing a hijab. Difference is that the nun has the choice. She followed a calling and made an effort and abided by the rules of the vocation. The woman wearing the hijab in most cases did not. Let's not go to far with the racist mongering.

    1. A nun nurse or a nun teacher would be banned by the charter, right? The PQ can maybe say this is a 'heritage' employee and allow them.

    2. Anonymous,

      Difference is that the nun has the choice. She followed a calling and made an effort and abided by the rules of the vocation. The woman wearing the hijab in most cases did not.

      There are many interviews on different TV channels with various women wearing hijab and ALL of them said that they did that on their free will and under no pressure from anyone. Did you mean that they were all lying? I would like to see the corroboration to your statement.

    3. "they did that on their free will and under no pressure from anyone"

      Alors elles sont libres de le retirer de 9 à 5,non?

    4. "The woman wearing the hijab in most cases did not [have a choice]."

      Many Muslim women wear head scarves voluntarily, without direct coercion.

      You can argue that these women were brainwashed by their religion, and you can claim that your fight is against brainwashing. But then are you engaging in a fight against brainwashing because brainwashing is bad, or in order to facilitate your own kind of brainwashing (and to get rid of a competing ideology)? This is a very important distinction, because it shows your motives. Are you motivated by emancipation or by assuming a totality of control?

      I know a great deal of valid and convincing anti-religion argumentation, but I also recognize when politcal forces want to get rid of competition and impose their own version of secular religion.

    5. Alors nous pouvons considérer le multiculturalisme canadien comme étant aussi du "brainwashing", n'est-ce pas?

    6. Thanks to the multi-culturalist craze of the 1960s, your own culture of 2% was able to assert itself.

      Today's Quebec's cultural arrogance is one example of my problem with multiculturalism - the "empowered" groups eventually get too arrogant.

      So yes, I do recognize problems related to multiculturalism - especially when looking at the people who once upon a time benefited from it.

    7. Les anglos n'ont-ils pas l'arrogance de prétendre qu'une seule langue doit dominer sur cette planète?

    8. Your way of dealing with the arrogance of globalists is to build up local pockets of arrogance. I am tired of anglo-mania, which is rampant around the world (including my country of birth) but the way Quebec "fights" it leaves a lot to be desired.

      QC chooses to attack minorities which have little to do with "anglicisation", while the real targets should be: Wall Street, London City (where the "independist" JM Aussant now works in the interests of Anglo-American capital), Washington and Hollywood. Not to mention that the province of QC secretly agrees to participate in the globalist project as long as the Quebec elites get their cut ("Le mouvement souveregnist que je dirige a toujours ete favorable au libre echange. Le mouvement souveregnist n'est pas protectionist, il est "libre-echangist" - Pauline Marois, December 2013)

  25. If one speaks with a government-paid employee on the phone, can their religious affiliation be determined? By their accent or maybe their name? If a blind person deals in person with a government-paid employee, does a dress code have any impact?

    1. What if someone has a name tag that says “Mohammed” (or “Ginette”, for that matter)? It could be argued they are advertising their religions too and breaking the PQ’s misunderstanding of the separation between religion and state.

      “Neutrality” means neither for nor against.

  26. Les libéraux modifient encore leur position sur le tchador

    Cha cha cha!