As the team sinks lower and lower in productivity and success, the focus remains on language, with most of the Press and the public buying into the fantasy that limiting the team to French speaking executives is no handicap at all.
The question remains;
What would be, if more talented English executives were available?
What if a Sam Pollack figure was available to return as General Manager and a Scotty Bowman or Toe Blake figure available as coach?
The public has bought into the moronic fantasy, first enunciated by Serge Savard and parroted ad nauseam by sportswriter anglophobes like Rejean Tremblay, that "à talent égal, des Québécois" (when presented with equal talent choose the Quebecer)
But what if one of the most elite general managers in the NHL suddenly became available to the Canadiens, an experienced and talented manager like Ken Holland, Lou Lamoriello, Peter Chiarelli or Paul Holmgren?
What if one of the most elite coaches in the NHL also became available to the Canadiens, a proven winner like Dan Bylsma, Mike Babcock, Ken Hitchcock or John Tortorella?
With the Savard Doctrine clearly not in play (none of the current potential French candidates for coach or general manager hold a candle to any of the above names,) would the team hire one of these unilingual Anglophones instead of a clearly inferior Francophone candidate?
Alas reader, you know the answer.
It would be French over quality, hands down.
That is where we have arrived in Quebec, not only in the Montreal Canadiens organization, but throughout Quebec society in general.
Recently, SNC-Lavalin one of Quebec's most successful global enterprises was racked by a massive corporate scandal which caused the board of directors to quickly remove the chief executive, Pierre Duhaime.
"SNC Lavalin is in the news again. Just a few days ago the engineering consulting firm dumped its CEO in a controversy over millions of dollars of dodgy payments. Now, the firm is being blasted for replacing him with an interim CEO who is a unilingual anglo. SNC-Lavalin says Ian Bourne has a basic understanding of French but is not able to give interviews in that language." LinkSound familiar?
It's as Yogi Berra once said, "it's deja vu, all over again!"
Yup, the story is eerily familiar to that of the hiring of Randy Cunneyworth and the public's overiding negative obsession over the fact that he is a unilingual Anglophone.
Whether these two men were the best available talent to handle these two powerhouse organizations, deep in crisis, is sadly beside the point.
It seems that even the silly Savard doctrine no longer satisfies the language bloodlust of Quebecers and so the new hiring doctrine has become;
"À talent égal ou inférieure, des Québécois!" or the "Savard doctrine plus"
Now back to the Canadiens, where after a ferocious media campaign of language intimidation, a frightened and panicked Geoff Molson, caved in faster than Chinese coal mine.
Daddy's little rich boy was so terrified of screwing up an investment that supposedly couldn't be screwed up, that he threw his anglo coach under the bus, just two days after approving his hiring!
Realizing that the message of the language zealots was starting to resound in the mainstream media, thus threatening his invincible money machine, he hired the very author of the Savard doctrine himself, Mr. Serge Savard, to take over his responsibility to run the hockey team.
And so Mr. Savard, no dummy when it comes to PR, will interview lots of candidates, including Anglophones, for the job of GM and coach. Ultimately, to nobody's surprise, he will settle on two Francophones, eliminating 80% of the candidates in his mind before the interviews even start, thus insuring that the team has a four out of five chance of hiring an inferior candidate.
I was watching the post game festivities of the first Montreal Impact MSL soccer victory and came across this interview which saddened me greatly.
Look how
Yes the language militants are rolling to victory in one battle after another in their quest to rid the corporate offices of Quebec of any vestige of unilingual Anglophones.
"Qu'on leur coupe la tête!" is the rallying cry as they march on the Caisse de dépôt, the National Bank, SNC-Lavelan and the Montreal Canadiens in their holy crusade.
 |
| Albert Einstein -NSFQ* |
After all, if Mr. Einstein couldn't explain his theories and equations in French to his colleagues and subordinates, what the heck would he be good for?
I'm sure Mario Beaulieu would lead the march to have Einstein removed, advising him to learn French immediately or move on to a more suitable environment, perhaps to some hick town in New Jersey.
"À talent égal ou inférieure, des Québécois!"
Now French language militants who peruse this blog will likely say that the above analogy is exaggerated and burlesque, but let me respond beforehand.
When Mario Beaulieu and his evil minion of language idiots demanded that the Caisse de dépôt, the National Bank and SNC-Lavalin remove their respective unilingual anglophone managers, did they even once stop to consider that perhaps these employees had such outstanding and valuable qualities that the language question should be set aside?
Friend or foe of this blog, you will all have to agree that this was never a consideration, because in Quebec, language trumps everything!
Accordingly, a reborn Jesus Christ, wouldn't qualify for any position of power in the Quebec Catholic Church because he had no French.
"À talent égal ou inférieure, des Québécois!"
Readers, I understand Mr. Molson's decision to cave in to language extremists, he is in the entertainment business and must deliver a product that his customers want.
If they'd rather have an inferior product in French, so be it, it costs him or society nothing.
But when the "Savard doctrine plus" is forced upon industry and tremendously talented Anglos are chased out of their jobs, it is sadly destructive.
*NSFQ =Not suitable for Quebec
First comment!
ReplyDeleteEditor,
Sadly, the mentality of French above all, even excellence, is real and alive. Let me remind you of a comment in one of the separatist sites in the time of Cunneyworth's accession that said that there was no shortage of francophone coaches. There were many coaches in minor hockey teams ready to take over the Canadiens.
Another comment from MQF site said that for him losing is not a big deal. As long as the team - including players and staff - represents his people, he would gladly visit all games. Just see my comments on your previous Canadiens piece.
Lastly, L. Prefontaine also wrote that in Quebec winning is not everything. The culture and the people are more important.
My comment was, and still is, the immortal words of Coach Vince Lombardi, "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing."
Do you expect anyone on the losing side of 2 referendums to know anything about winning? :)
DeleteWhy doesn't Geoff Molson, dead from the neck up, simply sell the team for some way overinflated price to the public? This way he can get his money back, make sure the IPO, prospectus and other necessary literature are written only in French, and add the stipulation in selling the shares that each 100 share block must include the purchase of 10 cases of Molson beer?
ReplyDeleteBetter still, put a proof of purchase coupon on every case, and part of the purchase of 100 shares means submitting ten POP coupons with their cash, certified cheques or money orders. Oh, and of course, the offer is only good for a week so by the time the eager purchasers of the shares come forward, they'll be endlessly belching their bière Molson while walking in drunken stupors! He can charge triple what the team is worth, but the purchasing public will be too buzzed to know they were royally ripped off!
I dunno, readers, my idea can't be stupider than having to speak French to the rabid media. English is the language behind the bench and in the dressing room--unless, of course, each and every member of the team is French-speaking, and so far in 103 years of history, that has not happened! Not EV-VER!
I watched the draft last night on TSN, and to nobody's surprise, the Habs finished 3rd from the bottom, so they'll pick 3rd each round save traded draft picks. There was one player from the QMJHL in the top ten, and he speaks Russian!!! Not ONE French speaker in the top ten from central scouting! In fact take a look at the following portal link: http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=79331 The first French name I see at #50 is Robert Baillargeon. Next is Francis Beauvillier at #57, and then Christophe Lalancette at #62.
If all the teams follow Central Scouting to the letter, then the "best" of the French names will be picked #20 and #27 in the SECOND round, and the last one #2 in the THIRD round. Gee, one of these second rate players can be moved up to #3 or #33 with any luck if the Habs pick stars based on language! Can't wait!
Oh, and to round off Quebec in the top 100, there is Charles Hudon at #95! Wow-weee! Savard can pick 4 of the top 100 from the bottom half of the pack! Maybe in the next seven seasons we'll be able to watch other teams in playoff hockey, and like the Leafs CEO yesterday, Molson, or the drunken suckers who take ownership of the team down the road, can put full-page ads in all the major papers apologizing to the fans for seven shitty seasons of celler dweller hockey...in French, of course, even in the English papers, if any are left in Quebec then. WWT!
@ Mr. Sauga.
DeleteGeoff Molson would be silly to sell the Habs with the amount of money he rakes in, even though he payed an inflated price for the team. How many seasons has the Bell Center had 21 273 seats sold for every game?
Now, of course, it is true, English is used behind the bench and in the dressing room. In fact, the Club de Hockey Canadiens was founded by anglophones. It was founded, though, so that francophones could have a team with players they could identify with.
Most of the Stanley Cups that have been won, more than 75% have been with anglophone coaches and anglophone GMs. However, for the last while, for some reason, the Canadiens decided to have ONLY francophone GM's and coaches. This limitation in the GM and coaching pool is what has led to the mediocrity of this team, with no Stanley Cups in the past 19 year. It is better to select the best qualified person for the job, regardless of language.
As for players, local representation is always a plus and I think it is not bad that a player of francophone heritage be selected ahead of an anglophone player of roughly the same caliber if he meets the requirements of the team and has the necessary skills, is a hard worker, and has pride in the team. Alot of francophones would love to play for the Habs (some couldn't care less...the weird Nordiques people).
As for draft selection, alot of the time, aside from the first few picks in the first round, draft order doesn't always matter. Wasn't Max Pacioretty drafted in the 5th round, for example?
So, if a few francophones are selected lower in the draft and they have the right skills, you never know. David Deharnais, for example, went undrafted and did an excellent job on the 1st line this year.
So selecting a francophone coach, GM, or player should of course be an option among others if you want to build a great team but should in no way should being French speaking be considered an exclusive criteria.
Yes, Roger, the draft is a crap shoot at best, and there usually are prime candidates near the top, but not always; nevertheless, should the Habs pick the player rated #50 first just because he has a French name? That's BENEATH moronic! I don't know if he even speaks French à la René Bourque (a useless morceau de merde we traded a premium player for).
DeleteQuebec is fast becoming a lost cause. A major part of the reason the Habs won all those Stanley Cups was because losing was considered UN-AC-CEPT-ABLE! I think the most meaningful season the Habs ever had was in 1975-76 when they beat the Flyers in 4 straight to win the Cup! Ken Dryden discussed this in documentaries, his book and at least oen of Dick Irvin's books. The Habs that year had the Flyers in their sights. This was the season where either finesse would outdo the intimidation that won the Flyers two Cups in a row in the two prior seasons, or vice versa. Had the Habs lost, hockey would have become the guerilla warfare it is now back then...unfortunately. Anyway, Bowman trained the Habs that they were to dominate every step of the season, be it the preseason, regular season and playoffs, and dominate everything they did!
Bowman was probably the greatest coach of all time because he mangaged to keep great teams great. Only the 1977 Habs and 1996 Red Wings won 60 or more games in the regular season, both coached by Bowman. No doubt in a 30-team league and with free agency being what it is, the probability of a dynasty is unlikely to happen again, or at least not for sometime to come.
Unlike basketball's Bulls in the 90s and the Lakers of the New Millennium, Hockey has a few good teams capable of winning the Cup this year, just like for most of this last decade. Like the Bulls and Lakers, the Habs, then the Islanders and finally the Oilers had a top-notch front office that poured in the best players for several years, coupled with a coach that kept the team focused.
Sadly, the Habs of today accept losing quite complacently and there are those that don't care if the team wins or loses as long as it's French. It's getting as Eccemtric in Montreal as it was in Toronto when Harold Ballard wrecked the Leafs. Now it's nationalism dictating Habs policy, and if this continues, the result will be a tragedy. With this attitude, like in Toronto, no Cups will be won for decades (this is the longest cupless drought in Habs history, and their worst finish since most of us were born), and none are in sight.
There were prospective players in the draft when Ballard was owner who came up to the club's table and asked for the Leafs not to draft them! I see this happening in Montreal in the future if French is more important than winning, and can you guess who will approach the draft table the most? It will be the FRENCH speaking players, because it is they who will be the scapegoats if the team performs poorly. None of the better Francophone players are particularly interested in playing for the Habs. Not Vincent Lecavalier, not Martin St-Louis, Daniel Brière, Claude Giroux, NONE OF THEM! Besides, the taxes will eat up their paycheques. Remember Daniel Bouchard when he was traded from the lowest-taxed Calgary Flames to the highest-taxed Quebec Nordiques. First thing he bitched about was the taxes!
If Savard starts with the French merde de toreau, the future for the Habs is merde!
Mister 'Sauga,
DeleteI didn't write that if a francophone was rated 50th overall that we should draft him in the first round.
I will repeat what I already wrote:
"As for players, local representation is always a plus and I think it is not bad that a player of francophone heritage be selected ahead of an anglophone player of roughly the same caliber if he meets the requirements of the team and has the necessary skills, is a hard worker, and has pride in the team"
So, keeping in mind the qualifiers that I wrote in that paragraph, if we used a second round pick to, instead of drafting what might be considered the right person with the 47th pick, we choose a francophone who was rated 50th, I would be okay with that, as long as that francophone had the right qualities.
Sometimes local pride is important to have. I think we see that with Deharnais and I have no problem having Matthieu Darche on the 4th line and St. Denis as a 7th defenceman.
All of those Stanley Cup winners, the Canadiens had, were comprised of amazing francophones such as Guy Lafleur and Maurice Richard, and others in conjuction with people like Larry Robinson and Bob Gainey. I know I'm messing up time periods but you get my point.
When I heard Matthieu Darche saying that it was unacceptable that the Canadiens didn't make the playoffs, it came from a sense of pride, and you could see that he was saying that with conviction whereas the way Gionta speaks about the Canadiens, it seems he just mouths the words.
So, talented francophones with pride in conjunction with Max Pacioretty, Eric Cole, PK Subban, and Carey Price - I think that's a winning combination!
P.S. Savard hired a unilingual anglophone coach in the 80's: Bob Berry. Savard was almost as good as Larry Robinson as a defenceman, and he was the GM when the Habs won the last 2 cups in '86 and '93, so I don't think he's unqualified as to knowing where this team should be going, although I did cringe a bit when he said the next GM would have to speak French.
@ Mr. Sauga
Delete"http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=79331 The first French name I see at #50 is Robert Baillargeon"
Well technically the first French name (not that all Francophones have a French last name and/or first name anyway consider Alex Burrows for example and then there's Anglophones with French names) on the list is some guy named Pouliot at #12 but he's apparently from Saskatchewan and probably doesn't speak the language but you forgot #17 Stefan Matteau who's the son of this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%A9phane_Matteau
For what it's worth, I thought I would point that out.
schadenfreude....it's all about schadenfreude.
ReplyDeleteExactly, Mr Marco. Reading the column and Sauga's analysis makes me feel much better about the Leaf's prospects.
DeleteBut Mr. Marco, who is it you perceive as deriving pleasure from the misfortunes of the Habs, save Leafs fans?
Delete@ Diogenes
DeleteAre those the same leafs that have not made the playoffs for the past 7 years? The one with Brian Burke still the GM who added so much truckulence to the Leafs that Komisarek got beat up by Lucic again?
Yes, sure, believe in the Leafs. It's the logical thing to do :P
A reborn Jésus Christ could not have a position anywhere in Canada either since he did not speak english any more than he spoke french. Mais je comprends bien qu'il ne faut pas prendre cet exemple au premier degré.
ReplyDeleteBut would Einstein be denied a position in Québec? A more interesting question would be : would Einstein apply for a position in Québec? If he wanted to apply for a job in a think tank, would he not apply in New York? Washington? London? (Perhaps René Descartes would apply?...)
On the "french market", we hold an interesting place. On the "english market", we compete with Harvard, Oxford, and many others ; on this market, we are second class. French is our niche market and the english market is quite crowded.
Being able to speak both french and english (and many more foreign languages) is an asset for Montréal. If Montréal was english only, it would not be another New York or Toronto, it would be another Winnipeg or Cleveland.
***
"But when the "Savard doctrine plus" is forced upon industry and tremendously talented Anglos are chased out of their jobs, it is sadly destructive."
Of course, it is sadly destructive, as sadly destructive as denying a job to talented francos because they can't speak english with their unilingual anglo boss.
So what should we do? Honestly, I don't really know.
M. Patrice, I have an answer for your question, "So what should we do?".
DeleteSome background:
Let's face some facts: The status quo, which involves blocking Anglos from the French-speaking workforce will just make them find jobs where they can speak English, thus perpetuating the continued existence of an Anglo job market, which I know nationalists like you abhor. There will never be a shortage of jobs that require English and no French so long as Quebec remains in North America (surrounded by a sea of 350 million Anglos) and wishes to trade and communicate with the outside world.
The solution:
How about French businesses in Montreal cut Anglo applicants some slack and hire them? Even if they are uni-lingual Anglos, which let's face it when it comes to Quebec-born Anglos there wouldn't be that many, give them a chance. Just make it clear to them that they are expected to speak and write French at work. Over time, just like immigrants, their French will improve to the point that they will be truly fluently bilingual. I would like to see a massive program put in place by the OQLF to encourage businesses to hire Anglos who are want to work in Frnech as a means to improve their facility with the language. You want to Francicize the workplace? Forget those ridiculous committees and implement this as a policy!!!
Personal history and plea:
I'm speaking from experience here. I have been denied jobs because I am not French. Although I can speak French very well, I have been told by hiring managers and company VPs that despite my very good French, they are worried that I won't integrate well in a 100% Francophone environment.
So what am I to do? Of course, the job I end up with is a job where I can speak English. This is not by choice. I would love to find a job where I would be given the opportunity to speak and write French. I am the first to admit that there is room for improvement in my French but without being given the opportunity to actually work in a Francophone environment, it is a guarantee that I will never improve.
Arguments:
Why haven't the nationalists, the PQ, the government ever thought of this? It would seem to me that you would prefer (like a bad girlfriend) to complain rather than do something to positively address the issue. Or maybe you're just a bunch of racists who want workers not only to speak French but to BE French. I honestly don't know but when a solution as simple as this is completely within your grasp and you don't make an effort towards supporting it, your motivations certainly do become suspect.
What do you think of that M. Patrice?
"But would Einstein be denied a position in Québec? A more interesting question would be : would Einstein apply for a position in Québec? If he wanted to apply for a job in a think tank, would he not apply in New York? Washington? London? (Perhaps René Descartes would apply?...)"
DeleteNice job, Monsieur Patrice, dodging the answer. You know the answer would be YES, he would probably be denied a job. But you prefer to answer it with another question. It is not the first time I see tactic. Is it something that is taught in the French school system, when one is asked an uncomfortable question to answer with another question?
Why Montréal cannot keep or attract top professionals? I'll give you the answer, so you won't have to come back with a claptrap question: because, as the Editor mentioned in the post, language trumps skills and talent. And I would actually go as far as arguing that not only language, but also ethnicity trumps skills and talent. In University, one of the smartest and most talented people in the year came from TO and was of Swiss and Asian descent - her mother from Geneva, and her father Canadian, of Asian descent. She spoke perfect French, English and some Mandarin. Although she tried to stay in Montréal, since most of her friends were from here, guess where she ended up finding a good suitable for her knowledge? I'll give you a hint: it starts with T.
"If Montréal was english only, it would not be another New York or Toronto, it would be another Winnipeg or Cleveland."
You are wrong, so wrong. Montréal used to be an awesome city before the the whole language discourse chased away the best and helped To develop. Yes, I am familiar with your theories regarding Montréal's decline and Toronto's development and I do not agree with them so please don't waste your time referencing your blog.
What's sad, actually, is that Mtl has started to progress and guess what, the language propagandists are biting again. IMO, the nationalist long-term plan was to shift the economic power from Mtl to Quebec City, and make Quebec City a world-class city. How did that work out?
mdblog,
Delete"The solution:
How about French businesses in Montreal cut Anglo applicants some slack and hire them? Even if they are uni-lingual Anglos, which let's face it when it comes to Quebec-born Anglos there wouldn't be that many, [...]"
What you say makes a lot of sense, and I agree with you in many ways. Personnaly, I also think that native english speakers immigrants coming from english countries should have the right to send their children to english schools. I am told that it would add only a few hundred students to the english school system but it would be enough to keep many english schools from closing. And it would help in hiring some english candidates who see the obligation of sending their children to english schools as a major drawback.
But I don't buy into the idea that total fluency in english for everyone should be a national goal nor do I buy into the idea that speaking french is some kind of heridetary disease.
"What you say makes a lot of sense, and I agree with you in many ways. "
Delete...soooo, will you write a blog piece supporting my idea? Will you write to the minister? Will you rally the troops around this idea? Remember, I'm just a bloke, so my words (in either language) carry less weight in Quebec than yours.
"But I don't buy into the idea that total fluency in english for everyone should be a national goal nor do I buy into the idea that speaking french is some kind of heridetary disease."
Where are you getting this from? I'm not advocating fluency in English as a policy goal. Nor did I say that speaking French is akin to a disease.
Why do you insist on changing the subject? Here, I present you with a reasonable idea that could seriously address YOUR concerns about English in Montreal, and you give it a "I agree with you in many ways" and then say nothing. I am almost certain that your lack of words on the matter will match your lack of action.
Like I said, all you want to do is whine and play the role of a victim. You have no serious dedication to preserving French in Quebec because if it were secure, you'd have nothing to complain about nor would you be able to systematically discriminate again people who are different than you.
I think you're spot on, Tanya.
DeleteThe mantra from virulent Quebec nationalists is "better poor and on our own than rich and hitched to them" (in reference to English Canada). The sad thing is that this is no better than pathetic kitschy Canadian nationalists who constantly talk down our neighbors next door in embarrassing fits of righteous preachy morality.
Alas, we reap what we sow.
There are elements both English- and French-speaking, everywhere in this country, ready to defiantly showcase our mediocrity at any price as a badge of local and nativist pride. All the while, these same people brand as self-hating or overidealistic those of us willing to work together and nation-build on the basis of ability both with the best material we've already got along with newcomers with great potential.
I suppose that even a neutral and detached study of this might conclude that what it really comes down to is a showdown between protectionism and free trade, with all the benefits and liabilities inherent in both schools of thought. As a centrist, I would expect the authorities and opinion leaders to articulate a vision that manages to leverage the best of both. As a cautious liberal, I would even expect that we collectively adopt a general attitude of openness. As a conservative, I might suggest we invest in what we've got.
The sad fact of the matter is that while Quebec's language policy hurts ALL of us, our overall system (and this certainly applies beyond Poutineistan) is broken beyond just language. The problem isn't just about a hypothetical non-French-speaking Einstein; it's as much, if not more, about the thousands of unnamed Abdul Hakims, Marias, Minhs, and Jean-Baptistes who are pitched bill of goods that is destined to go undelivered even after they've purchased.
Anglophone witch-hunting is just the tip of the iceberg, guys. Until we come to grips with the fact that an Algerian accountant working as a security guard or a Haitian doctor driving a cab are in fact infinitely more damaging to our society than bilingual signage (or, as even I must concede, even the lack thereof), I fear we're condemned to repeat the greater travesty we seem to be rightly taking aim at -- namely that of shamefully unrealized and embarrassingly unfulfilled potential. I'm not saying professional orders be damned (far from it!); I'm saying that publicly pretending to be "welcoming" isn't much better than being bigots -- both tacit or open.
Forget, for just a moment, the never-ending debates (useless and ceaseless) about the survival of French or of English. After all, how pretentious, jealous, and narcissistic of a language to even aspire to command the sort of loyalty that drives men to commit unspeakable horrors?
No. The question, as I see it, both here and not-so-here, ought to be:
Is a "homogenocracy" a luxury that we as a society can continue to afford?
> But I don't buy into the idea that total fluency in english for everyone should be a national goal nor do I buy into the idea that speaking french is some kind of heridetary disease.
DeleteUnlike you, I favor the first and, like you, oppose the second, both on the basis of expanded opportunities for everyone.
Don't you want your kids to have the same opportunities you had, Michel, if not more? Does it matter to you whether they become published writers in English or in French? Being a separatist, you might rather one more than the other, but would you discourage them from making their way in the world as they see fit?
Likewise, I don't agree that putting up barriers and impediments to outside influences is the best way to come to terms with our reality.
>On the "french market", we hold an interesting place. On the "english market", we compete with Harvard, Oxford, and many others ; on this market, we are second class. French is our niche market and the english market is quite crowded.
DeleteIsn't that a lot like saying that even those Canadians who make it internationally (whether via U.S. or other proxy launching pads) are always destined to be second class? That sounds an awful lot like a blanket condemnation; much like the separatists who keep telling Quebecers that it's okay if they're second class everywhere else because they'll always be first class here at home. It's insulting more than it is heartwarming.
>Being able to speak both french and english (and many more foreign languages) is an asset for Montréal.
(I thought I already talked to you about the accent aigu when writing Montreal in English. Do you actually do the Bernard Landry thing where even when speaking English, you pronounce that one word the French way? Don't make a bigger ass of yourself about this than he does himself.)
I disagree that it's an asset insofar as geography, business, cultural, and personal ties to most of our neighbors (and indeed many others abroad) suggest it's more of a necessity than a luxury. Montreal isn't the symbolic capital of a yet-unfulfilled independent Quebec, and it is both provincial and insulting to treat it as such. Politics aside, we are a world-class city, and it is precisely our bilingual and accessible nature that makes this so.
>If Montréal was english only, it would not be another New York or Toronto, it would be another Winnipeg or Cleveland.
DeleteAgain I echo Tanya's comment about your incessant and shameless self-promoting of your blog commentary on this item. The fact of the matter Michel, is that unless you're in possession of a time machine or some device to visit parallel universes, there is currently no way to know what Montreal 2012 sans bill 101 would be like. What we do know, however, is that money and influence often go together. Both of these like a stable environment, and political uncertainty undermines both kinds of dominance.
Note, if you will, how New York city has remained America's cultural and financial heart even with both stiff competition in various fields from such places as Chicago, Atlanta, Texas, and California (and greater integration overall). Despite several factors weighing down on the big apple, New York is still New York. It hasn't become Philadelphia, Charleston, or New Orleans -- towns that have declined and lost much of their historical luster and comparative influence. Sure, Calgary's coming online fast, and you can't get a house in Vancouver unless you're a trust fund baby, but these "newer" centers' emergence hasn't largely come at an expense to Montreal, per se, as a good deal of Toronto's has.
As far as I'm concerned, Quebec nationalism hasn't done enough not to scare off non-French money and non-French influence from Montreal. If anything, over a generation of PQ presence post Quiet Revolution has given a voice and a shroud of legitimacy to some of the most extreme RINistes whose ideological descendants variously assemble "patriotic" "militia" "fronts", find haven at Vigile and dot even the mainstream punditry landscape in this province and who continue to foment civic insecurity and disharmony while continually shoving a self-serving shitstorm in our face. These are the cancers and letches of our society. Alas, a handful French-Canadian lunatics have seized control of the asylum that is Quebec and yet still have the gall to fanatically chant "le Québec aux Québécois" to anyone who isn't afflicted with the same disease as them.
Were their enemies (real and imagined) just as deranged, one might hear "Montréal aux Montréalais" and "le Canada aux Canadiens". Yet neither phrase has entered the common lexicon.
mdblog,
Delete"soooo, will you write a blog piece supporting my idea? Will you write to the minister? Will you rally the troops around this idea? Remember, I'm just a bloke, so my words (in either language) carry less weight in Quebec than yours."
(Although I don't have to,) I have been writing down some ideas in this regard, as soon as I post them (most likely on Vigile), I will provide the link. On your part, you may just try to write to the minister or to the media (or to Vigile...), I would be interesting, who knows? And I am not making fun of you, I am serious. (And I think that it would be contemptous to say that you won't because you prefer to whine and play victim...)
"Where are you getting this from? I'm not advocating fluency in English as a policy goal."
I know you don't. It sometimes seems to be advocated in the general diffuse public discours (half of grade 6 in english for instance, and so on). And being sceptical about it makes me a anglo hater.
"you give it a "I agree with you in many ways" and then say nothing."
I said that I agree in many ways. Did I have to rewrite everything that you wrote that I agree with?
"Why do you insist on changing the subject?"
I did not change the subject. I added something : I said that I agree with what you said and that, in addition to it, I also think that english schools should be opened to native english speakers immigrants. I don't see this as another subject, I see this as another idea that is an addition to yours, am idea going in the same direction.
C'est pas facile de se parler.
Apparatchik09:08,
DeleteOf course, I want my daughters to have the same opportunity. My daughters learn english, and my oldest daughter will soon be learning spanish.
I am not against learning english. Let's say that I see this as mathematics. Advanced mathematics are a must in today international economy, but do everyone needs to master advanced mathematics?
The engineer who builds airplanes has to master advanced mathematics. But what about the floorsweeper, does he have to master advanced mathematics? He should know at least basic maths, but advanced maths?
Of course, one could tell me that maybe he should learn english in order not to remain floorsweeper. I too think that it would be great if he could sweep english floors. But I think that he should better learn computing sciences, carpentry or acounting.
If learning english costed no time and effort, everybody should learn it perfectly. But there is a cost.
Do we all have to become fluent english speakers? Let's popose that everyone (children and adults) goes to school to become fluent english speakers. Many will say that they don't need to speak more english. The nurse will say "98% of my patients are french speakers". The teacher will say "I teach in a french school". The truck driver will say "I already speak english more than I need to to travel in the USA". Another will say "regardless how long I work at it, I will never be fluent". And they will be right.
For much the same reasons, there are anlgophones in Québec who don't speak much french. And it is alright. Idealy, should they all be fluent french speakers. Yes, idealy, but it won't happen.
ApparatchikApr 11, 2012 09:48 AM
Delete"Isn't that a lot like saying that even those Canadians who make it internationally (whether via U.S. or other proxy launching pads) are always destined to be second class?"
No, it is not. Canadians or quebeckers making it internationaly in english can be as successful as anyone.
What I say is : the HEC may try to be an english school but it will not be (at least, not without huge efforts). It will be a copy of the original and there are already many universities offering english courses. But the HEC is already french, and there is a market for french education and the HEC should play that card. This is niche marketing.
Tim Horton could try to beat Mac Donald at hamburgers but it would be stupid. Their niche market is donuts. We could try to beat Saudi Arabia at oil, but I think that we should play our hydroelectricity card. If Rambo wants to fight Rocky, maybe he should fighting in the jungle.
There is a place in the world for small nations in niche markets.
I am not against learning english. Let's say that I see this as mathematics. Advanced mathematics are a must in today international economy, but do everyone needs to master advanced mathematics?
DeleteI'd argue that English being at the root of most communication on this continent and international lingua franca that it ought to be seen as a more indispensable part of the curriculum than something only the "smart kids" get to do. I'd put fluency English (for francophones) right up there with French (for Quebec anglophones) as being a non-negotiable precondition to graduate from high school. I'd also firm up teaching both as second languages to their respective audiences. Bilingualism isn't a luxury, Michel. In our place and time, it's a necessity. Which brings me to your following point.
>If learning english costed no time and effort, everybody should learn it perfectly. But there is a cost.
Avec des si on mettrait Paris en bouteille.
The importance of not speaking both languages comes at not just a huge opportunity cost both economically and culturally to individual citizens, it's a communication barrier that artificially divides us from our co-nationals elsewhere, and they from us. The burden should ideally be borne by both sides, but when you're a minority like we are, you can't afford to keep finger-pointing. You roll up your sleeves and make the best of a rainy day.
>For much the same reasons, there are anlgophones in Québec who don't speak much french.
Yes and that irritates me to the nth degree. But these are people who fight for their own limitations and then accept them as being axiomatic facts of life they just can't overcome. I have about as much respect for this sort of folk as I do the moron who loses one of his children to a terrible disease and who subsequently kills his other child because he couldn't cope with the loss. It's a self-serving illusion/perception of luxury that is at the root of their very own impoverishment. And that drives me batty.
Apparatchik,
Delete"I thought I already talked to you about the accent aigu when writing Montreal in English. Do you actually do the Bernard Landry thing where even when speaking English, you pronounce that one word the French way? Don't make a bigger ass of yourself about this than he does himself."
You told me about accents two or three times before and I kindly ignored you. I could effortlessly write Montreal instead of Montréal, but I don't. Is it such a big deal?
When I speak, I of course pronounce mostly every words with a french-quebecker accent.
M. Patrice at 10:46,
DeleteWhat I say is : the HEC may try to be an english school but it will not be (at least, not without huge efforts). It will be a copy of the original and there are already many universities offering english courses. But the HEC is already french, and there is a market for french education and the HEC should play that card. This is niche marketing.
Tim Horton could try to beat Mac Donald at hamburgers but it would be stupid. Their niche market is donuts. We could try to beat Saudi Arabia at oil, but I think that we should play our hydroelectricity card. If Rambo wants to fight Rocky, maybe he should fighting in the jungle.
There is a place in the world for small nations in niche markets.
Your argument goes out of the window if you consider the success of (another) HEC. I am talking about HEC Paris, the original HEC. That school is much more English than HEC Montreal. In fact, most of the courses and the programs in HEC Paris are delivered in English. Also, that school is located in a real French speaking environment. Yet, HEC Paris is much more successful and well-known than the copycat school in the copycat French community. According to Financial Times, HEC Paris is ranked number 18 among business schools in the world.
How would you explain that?
BTW, FYI, McGill is placed number 3 (better than I expected) in Canada. HEC Montreal does not make the list.
>Canadians or quebeckers making it internationaly in english can be as successful as anyone.
DeleteI'm glad you recognize that.
> What I say is : the HEC may try to be an english school but it will not be (at least, not without huge efforts). It will be a copy of the original and there are already many universities offering english courses. But the HEC is already french, and there is a market for french education and the HEC should play that card.
Bullshit, and bullshit, I say.
That angst over English-language programs at HEC is a pride thing and has much to do with the fact that it's a business school that's churned out almost three generations of French-Canadian kids, upwardly mobile, and able to take over the jobs that the not-so-mythical anglophone bourgeoisie occupied not so long ago. The idea of the new occupants embracing the necessity of English and even Spanish alongside French, however repugnant it may be to the hardcore separatists wishing to camouflage and spin this nine ways to Sunday, is nothing more than Administration responding to what and where it thinks the greatest needs will be. To separatists and particularly separatist militants, it is the ultimate humiliation -- capitulation from within. Or, if you like, an admission that maybe we federalists haven't been THAT wrong all along. Young people, post-separatists, and those who've moved past the petty divide see an opportunity for growth that finally benefits all of us. And frankly, I'm glad to see an instrument of French-Canadian nationalism work both to and for a better integration of both founding cultures and beyond.
This is niche marketing.
I'm sick of Quebec being a perpetual niche just because of its fucking language. Integration, tabarnak.
Tim Horton could try to beat Mac Donald at hamburgers but it would be stupid. Their niche market is donuts.
Is that why both offer breakfast, lunch, and dinner? And hey, why do I often see one so close to the other if they're not competing? Intégration, mauzuss! Why not vertical AND horizontal integration?
>We could try to beat Saudi Arabia at oil, but I think that we should play our hydroelectricity card.
Our country has the third-biggest oil reserves, the likes of which fund many of the programs I like to think are "Made in Québec" (accent aigu used deliberately), and a handful of separatist morons are trying to formally take us away from that so that they can be tin-pot royalty over a much smaller mountain.
I sure as hell like the hydroelectricity idea, but how many more rivers are we going to dam in this province? There's a limit to that too, you know.
>If Rambo wants to fight Rocky, maybe he should fighting in the jungle.
ADRIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN.
>There is a place in the world for small nations in niche markets.
We are citizens of a country that is great both in size as well as potential. It is sheer madness to virtually excise away a large chunk of the landmass around me just because a clique of wannabes wants to play a pathetic game of statesmen and grown-ups. And it's entirely pathetic that they seize upon something as anti-climactic as language and turn it into an existential wedge issue.
Think about it, an artificial issue to bring about real divisiveness. When it happens anywhere else, we shake our heads at how unfortunate it is. Here, we've legitimated it into an acceptable way of doing things.
I weep for what we could be making of ourselves instead.
>You told me about accents two or three times before and I kindly ignored you. I could effortlessly write Montreal instead of Montréal, but I don't. Is it such a big deal?
DeleteConsider it something beyond a mere shibboleth. It speaks volumes.
Much more about you than you'll ever know.
When I speak, I of course pronounce mostly every words with a french-quebecker accent.
I was distinguishing between the accent you generally have and one that is deliberately exaggerated (for effect, some might say) with specific words. Again, speaking volumes.
Maybe because Paris has more international appeal than Montréal? Maybe because Paris competes in Europe with 46 non english speaking countries? Maybe because France has a an internationaly recognized long tradition of intellectual rigor? Maybe because, when HEC Montréal were founded in early twentieth century, Québec was then light years behind Paris regarding education (and still is behind in my opinion)?
DeleteThis being said, HEC Montréal does not make the list. Would make it by becoming english? Or would it be just another english school that doesn't make the list?
(And there are people in Paris questionning what they call the "Tout à l'anglais". And they are not racist anglo haters, they are simply people asking questions which is something normal in a normal society.)
Apparatchik11:36 AM,
Delete"I was distinguishing between the accent you generally have and one that is deliberately exaggerated (for effect, some might say) with specific words."
Switching accent for specific words is a tongue twister to me. I keep the same accent for every word.
Personally I say words the english way when I speak english and the french way when I speak french.
DeleteIt led to a debate with my (anglophone) girlfriend; she was bugged that I introduced myself to her using an anglicized pronounciation of my name that is not used by my family, and that I pronounce her name in a slightly more francized manner when I speak french to my family. Likewise, when I introduced my family, I would anglicize the pronounciation of their names - rolling the R's in the english way, etc...
I explained that it was a common courtesy to anglos to provide them a pronounciation that uses syllables that actually exist in their language, and that to pronounce a single word in a different language in the middle of a sentence is awkward.
In the end we could not arrive to a consensus. I'd be interested in what you guys think of the issue, Apparatchik and Michel.
I personally think it's quaint and very Montréal/Montreal (don't want anybody screaming at me) to use whatever prononciation comes first to my brain when I speak English or French. I mix up my prononciations all the time, not with the intention of offening anybody but because I am an anglo who grew up in a French neighborhood. I will say cabanon and not cabana, poutine (as in poutzine and not pooteen). It really is a mish-mash at times and I am not ashamed of it at all. I will also often speak French to my husband or my kids, why? Because that's just the way it comes out.
DeleteTo unlingual english speakers, Patrice seems to be hard to both pronounce and understand. Michel is not much of a problem since both syllabes exist in english (me-shell).
DeleteSo I sometimes anglicize the pronunciation for unilingual english speakers. I think that native english speakers who speak french don't really care since they are used to the french pronunciation so I don't anglicize the pronunciation of my name.
But honestly, I think that I have given much less thought to it than you and your girlfriend have.
Deep down, my opinion on that one is somewhere between ambivalence and eye-rolling, although I see both points.
DeleteAnd in the interest of full disclosure, I keep it simple and pronounce my name using French sound rules when speaking French and English phonology speaking English.
My tiff with Michel has to do with the fact that English has long-standing, unaccented, and historically-attested variants for words like "Montreal" and "Quebec", so dropping these in favor of only their French-language variants when speaking and writing English comes across (even to a bilingual person like myself) as both petty, pretentious, and over the top. I was shocked to read just now that he pronounces everything with a "French-Quebecker" accent; I guess in light of his writing style, somehow my own bias imagined his French-origin accent in English as being far less thick.
Anyway, getting back to your question, here's an anecdote you might find interesting. A bilingual Greek friend of mine does one better; he generally uses the same policy as I do, except when he deliberately wishes to be neutral and show no preference (like at a bilingual ceremony), at which point he uses the (correct) Greek pronunciation (rolling r's and emphasizing entirely different syllables!). Definitely something that made me smile the first time I witnessed it...
Bottom line: my advice: do your own thing, and let her do hers. You might have children one day who, hopefully, won't think twice about calling her "mommy" and you "papa".
>I am not against learning english. Let's say that I see this as mathematics. Advanced mathematics are a must in today international economy, but do everyone needs to master advanced mathematics?
DeleteFalse analogy, Michel. It's like learning mathematics (not Calculus), something that can be done in elementary school at a young age. I believe francophones are capable of doing that. Unlike you, I don't believe francophones are inferior.
"False analogy"
DeletePourquoi?Si vous n'utilisez pas une matière,à quoi sert-elle?
Par temps normal, pensez-vous au complément circonstanciel de lieu à chaque fois vous formez une phrase? Et pourtant il s'agit d'un élément obscur mais qui fait néanmoins partie intégrante de notre grammaire.
DeleteIl en va de même pour tout le programme scolaire. Ce n'est pas parce qu'on ne se donne pas la peine de bien apprendre (ou de se rappeler d') une matière quelconque qu'elle n'est pas importante. Très souvent, on dit de ceux qui ne s'en rappellent pas qu'ils sont de mauvais élèves, n'est-ce pas?
To develop the brain. And if you don't think learning basic mathematics (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division etc) is necessary, then I see how you would think learning another language would be useless as well. Chapeau à toi!
DeleteApparatchik,
Delete"I was shocked to read just now that he pronounces everything with a "French-Quebecker" accent; I guess in light of his writing style, somehow my own bias imagined his French-origin accent in English as being far less thick."
I guess that we don't mean the same thing by french quebecker accent. : )
Here is what I mean : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqD5GVDtAVg&feature=youtu.be
C'est évident quand je parle que l'anglais n'est pas langue maternelle. En autres, je ne prononce (pratiquement) pas les "th". J'ai l'accent des gens de chez nous et c'est tout.
To me, language is like music. The grammar and the vocabulary are the partition. The accent is the instrument, you can play the same musical piece to a piano or to a flute. If you play the right notes, you speak fine. If you play the right notes with a bag pipe, it might sound akward, but you are nevertheless playing the right notes.
Michel
To me, Quebec separation is like fantasy. You try to break it away and it doesn't break. It stays together, glued to Canada forever in artistic splendour. Oh, how it is beautiful! O' Canada!
DeleteJe pense parfois que certains gens sont paresseux ou ils pensent que ca sera tres difficile pour ces enfants d'apprendre une autre langues s'il n'a pas appris un autre langue, eux memes. Moi, je ne suis pas parfaitement billingue: j'avais juste 1 ou 2 cours de francais par semaine au secondaire mais je pense que le plus jeune que vous etes, le plus facile qu'il est pour apprendre un autre langue. Je vois des enfants qui ont 5 ou 6 ans et il me semble il n'a pas de probleme en parlant les deux langues. Et c'est dit que quand on apprendre une langue a une jeune age, c'est plus facile d'apprendre un autre.
DeleteDonc, je pense que plusier personne devrait etre comme toi, parce qu'il y a beaucoup plus de personne avec qui vous pouvez communiquer et beaucoup d'autre experience aussi!
"Oh, how it is beautiful! O' Canada!"
DeleteAucun doute,vous avez beaucoup de goût...Un "real canadian".Un p'tit "bo*er" lorsque vous pénétrez dans un Tim Hortons?
Anonymous 3:24 Is that you Gilles Proulx, you old fart?
Delete>Here is what I mean : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqD5GVDtAVg&feature=youtu.be [...]
DeleteC'est évident quand je parle que l'anglais n'est pas langue maternelle
;-) OK d'abord. Je n'entends rien "d'anormal", compte tenu du contexte géographique...
>J'ai l'accent des gens de chez nous et c'est tout.
LOL "chez nous"... là tu viens sérieusement d'échapper le ballon, mon cher. L'accent de chez nous, c'est aussi l'accent que moi j'ai lorsque je parle anglais... lequel ne ressemble pas au tien, et lequel n'est pourtant pas plus étranger au Québec. Un lapsus de ta part, I'm sure. I'll let you think about that and try again.
>J'adore les langues, pourquoi résister leur apprentissage?
DeleteAucune idée. J'encourage cette même notion au plan institutionnel et encore plus au plan personnel.
Apparatchik,
DeleteYou are such a nitpicker.
C'est l'accent de chez nous. Cette façon de parler ressemble-t-elle à ce qu'on parle en Russie? en France? en Angleterre? au Japon? Non.
Si tu m'entends parler un moment, tu ne devines pas que je viens du Québec? Il me semble que c'est évident.
Tu veux dire qu'il y a plus d'un accent au Québec? et pas juste l'accent des francophones? Ben oui, c'est évidemment. Et il y a même plusieurs accents francophones. On ne parle pas sur la Basse Côte-Nord comme on parle à Montréal.
Et je dis que je parle avec l'accent de chez nous et c'est vrai pour tout le monde. Tout le monde a l'accent de chez lui. On a l'accent qui nous vient de chez nous, quel autre accent pourrait-on avoir? Ton accent vient de tes parents j'imagine comme pour tout le monde? Ben, chez tes parents, c'est chez vous. T'as l'accent de chez vous.
Aurais-tu mieux aimer j'ai UN accent de chez nous? (Même si ça sonne un peu débile?) Peut-être l'accent de chez MOI?
Il me semble que c'est compliqué : je dis que je parle anglais avec un accent et, ô scandale, je parle avec un gros accent french-quebecker. Je dis french quebecker parce que ce n'est pas français de France et je ne dis pas just quebecker parce que les québécois ne sont pas seulement francophones. Ça fait que j'enregistre finalement ma voix pour qu'on arrête de s'obstiner sur qu'est-ce qui veut dire quoi. Et là on s'obstine sur c'est quoi chez nous et l'accent de chez nous. Tabarnak.
Mettons ça simple : je parle anglais avec un accent normal pour quelqu'un dont l'anglais n'est pas la langue maternelle. (J'espère que "normal" n'est pas insultant pour personne. Je veux dire "normal" dans le sens de "moyenne statistique", je veux pas dire qu'il y a des "anormaux" dans le sens péjoratif du terme. Bon, tu comprends ce que je veux dire?...)
Et quand je dis français de France, je ne veux pas dire que les bretons, les corses ou les basques ne sont pas français. Leurs accents à eux aussi est français.
DeleteBon ok, les basques ne sont pas tous français, il y en a qui sont espagnols aussi. Et leur accent est aussi espagnol que celui tous les autres espagnols .
DeleteP.S. Ne me dis pas que tu n'as pas été élevé chez vous et que tu as l'accent d'une famille d'accueil, je capote.
DeleteEspagnol aussi dans le sens de résident de l'Espagne, pas dans le sens de hispanophone parce qu'il y a plein d'hispanophones en dehors de l'Espagne.
DeleteBon, il y a des résidents qui ne sont pas citoyens. Alors dans le sens de citoyen espagnol, ou plutôt citoyen de l'Espagne (pour ne pas confondre avec citoyen hispanophone...).
C'est-tu correct?
Apparatchik n'est pas un citoyen du Québec,c'est un citoyen de la terre et peut-être même au delà.Je le soupçonne même de causer klingon avec un léger accent.
Delete"nitpicker"
DeleteCe n'est pas l'expression que j'aurais utilisé si l'Éditeur de ce blogue n'était pas si sensible à certains vocables.
"L'accent de chez nous, c'est aussi l'accent que moi j'ai lorsque je parle anglais... lequel ne ressemble pas au tien, et lequel n'est pourtant pas plus étranger au Québec."
DeleteBon, évidemment, quand je dis quelque chose comme chez nous c'est le Québec, il y a toujours quelqu'un pour me dire que le Québec n'est pas un pays, et qu'on est au Canada. Alors quand j'ai dit que tous les québécois ne sont pas francophones, je ne veux pas dire que vous n'êtes pas canadiens pareil.
Et il a y a parmi nous sur ce blogue (ou devrais-je dire parmi vous? je ne sais pas trop) qui ont dit qu'ils étaient montréalais et canadiens, mais qu'ils ne seraient jamais québécois. Alors quand je dis que vous êtes tous québécois aussi, pas juste les francophones, vous n'êtes pas obligés, c'est juste si vous voulez.
Alors vous aauriez un accent canado-montréalais mais pas québécois, mais sur le territoire du Québec, parce que c'est chez vous aussi. Parce que vivre au Québec et être québécois, c'est pas la même chose. Je veux dire vous pouvez être québécois si vous voulez, mais vous n'êtes pas obligés. C'est cool si vous voulez et c'est cool aussi si vous voulez pas.
Je vais aller prendre deux aspirines, me semble que j'ai mal à la tête...
Héhé!
DeleteIl me semble que c'est compliqué : je dis que je parle anglais avec un accent et, ô scandale, je parle avec un gros accent french-quebecker.
DeleteLà tu passes vraiment à côté. Inutile de t'excuser ou même de t'insurger du le fait d'avoir un accent d'un locuteur natif de l'anglais, ni même de faire des pirouettes identitaires style Elvis Gratton. Ce sur quoi je voulais attirer ton attention c'était simplement ton utilisation de "chez nous".
>Ne me dis pas que tu n'as pas été élevé chez vous et que tu as l'accent d'une famille d'accueil, je capote.
LOL pas pan toute. J'ai été élevé à Montréal (par ma famille biologique). Et pour répondre sérieusement à ta question, ma prononciation anglaise diffère effectivement de celle de mes deux parents. Alors que ceux-ci ont un accent Nord-Américain beaucoup plus "neutre" (pensez Mark Kelley (Montréalais!) ou Adrienne Arsenault), ou même Andrew Nichols (Montréalais!), je semble à l'occasion dégringoler vers une prononciation s'apparentant beaucoup plus à quelque chose entre Anderson Cooper et Jon Stewart. (Désolé, mon micro ne fonctionne pas!)
>Bon, évidemment, quand je dis quelque chose comme chez nous c'est le Québec, il y a toujours quelqu'un pour me dire que le Québec n'est pas un pays, et qu'on est au Canada. Alors quand j'ai dit que tous les québécois ne sont pas francophones, je ne veux pas dire que vous n'êtes pas canadiens pareil.
Yikes! T'étais pourtant si proche d'la patante...
C'est peut-être à force de m'entretenir avec des bigots fanatiques sur la question de l'unité nationale et de me faire appeler l'ennemi du peuple numéro un et d'avoir à supporter leur vocabulaire et tournures aussi ridicules que conflictuels et polémiques que je finis par devenir hyper sensible à certains usages. J'avais compris ton "chez nous" pas comme dans "là où j'habite" ou bien "là d'où je viens", mais plus dans le sens "là ou nous, vrais détenteurs du label 'Québécois' habitons" (par opposition/exclusion de ceux qui ne satisfont pas à la définition souvent étroite du "nous" que je vois très souvent en ligne). Mon objectif n'était que de faire un peu de lumière sur un vocable dont l'utilisation par certains frôle, à mon sens, un fanatisme intolérable. Comme ceux qui soutiennent que pour être Québécois, il faut absolument être francophone.
>Et il a y a parmi nous sur ce blogue (ou devrais-je dire parmi vous? je ne sais pas trop) qui ont dit qu'ils étaient montréalais et canadiens, mais qu'ils ne seraient jamais québécois.
DeleteÀ eux de porter cette croix-là. Moi je suis Montréalais, Québécois, et Canadien à parts égales et j'en veux à ceux qui cherchent à me voler, à m'enlever (ou à m'imposer de me départir de) l'une ou l'autre de ces référents.
>Alors quand je dis que vous êtes tous québécois aussi, pas juste les francophones, vous n'êtes pas obligés, c'est juste si vous voulez.
Inutile de se fendre en quatre. Je suis Québécois. Et pas seulement par le fait d'avoir des ancêtres Canadiens-Français. Et qu'on le veuille ou non, un Québécois, c'est un Canadien. Ne pas accepter ces vérités veut dire donner d'autres munitions à un conflit qui dure depuis déjà trop longtemps.
>Alors vous aauriez un accent canado-montréalais mais pas québécois, mais sur le territoire du Québec, parce que c'est chez vous aussi.
Là t'en tartines gros... "canado-montréalais mais pas québécois". Jean Charest, qu'on l'aime ou qu'on l'haïsse, n'est pas moins Québécois parce qu'il est parfaitement bilingue.
>Parce que vivre au Québec et être québécois, c'est pas la même chose.
Entièrement d'accord. Mais qu'on se le dise: vivre au Canada en faisant semblant de ne pas être Canadien n'est guère mieux.
>Je veux dire vous pouvez être québécois si vous voulez, mais vous n'êtes pas obligés. C'est cool si vous voulez et c'est cool aussi si vous voulez pas.
Merci, c'est gentil. Bien que je n'aie qu'une part sur 7,5 millions, je préfère avoir une carte d'adhésion que de ne pas en avoir une.
>Je vais aller prendre deux aspirines, me semble que j'ai mal à la tête...
Deux aux 4-6 heures gros max, je crois. Fais attention à toi.
"J'avais compris ton "chez nous" pas comme dans "là où j'habite" ou bien "là d'où je viens", mais plus dans le sens "là ou nous, vrais détenteurs du label 'Québécois' habitons" (par opposition/exclusion de ceux qui ne satisfont pas à la définition souvent étroite du "nous" que je vois très souvent en ligne). Mon objectif n'était que de faire un peu de lumière sur un vocable dont l'utilisation par certains frôle, à mon sens, un fanatisme intolérable."
DeleteBon j'en ai beurré épais, mais ce que je veux dire, c'est que, des fois, tu es vraiment astineux (tu t'obstines). Mais je vois que tu as compris ce que je voulais dire et ce que je ne voulais pas dire.
Moi, je ne suis pas vraiment astineux, je m'obstine seulement quand j'ai raison. (Notez la blague subtile. Merci.)
Bonne nuit.
Michel Patrice
"Being able to speak both french and english (and many more foreign languages) is an asset for Montréal"
ReplyDelete...Speaking English is a must; speaking English AND French AND other languages OR more languages is a plus (especially for our brain cells), but not a must.
"If Montréal was english only..."
We are getting there, so MontrEal would be able to become again the Great English MontrEal as it was in its glorious past. Now, with all this joual and joaul-speakers it's le petit village de Montréal, alias backwater downtrodden city.
WA
To Anonymous6:18 and Tanya S,
Delete"If Montréal was english only...We are getting there, so MontrEal would be able to become again the Great English MontrEal as it was in its glorious past."
If I did not fear to start another long and neverending discussion, I would point out that, in the first half of the twentieth century, Montréal was basicaly an english city and yet, Toronto grew faster than Montréal in the 30s. For the same reason, I will not point out that the Toronto area (where one fifth of the canadian population now lives) drained population from every part of Canada despite the fact that these regions were english too.
Being humble, I would like to mention that these theories are not mine, but René Marcel Sauvé's (former officer of the canadian army) and Jane Jacobs'S (american urbanist who lived in Totonto for decades).
"Now, with all this joual and joaul-speakers it's le petit village de "Montréal", alias backwater downtrodden city."
Deletethey don't call it "Montréal", they call it "MOURIAL"
VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MOURIAL!!!
DeleteMDR!!!
VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MOURIAL?
DeleteMDR, You said it, but you said it wrong..
Glad to see that the movement is growing and that it scares the crap out of Separatists.
It really is the solution though.
Better yet, it is French Canadian Montréalais who want it because we are not all the hateful Taliban the segregationist Québécois French separatist factory schools force us to be!
So it's VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTRÉAL!!
Language spoken most often at home on the island according to www.statcan.gc.ca :
DeleteFrench 958,650
English 436,260
Non-official language 346,065
English and French 20,335
French and non-official language 34,395
English and non-official language 19,950
English, French and non-official language 8,245
So there's more than a million people speaking French at home and you expect it to become English-only? Never going to happen. You can't force people to move or assimilate and speaking of assimilation, good luck getting many of those who speak some non-official language at home to assimilate to English because the most numerous ethnic groups among allophones nowadays are Algerians and Moroccans.
So much for bilingualism and tolerance, turns out what you want is English only to be spoken.
Montreal is neither a French speaking only entity that language hardliners want it to be nor is it an English speaking metropolis that some believe it was in the 50's and 60's. It is actually the most functionally bilingual city in Canada, regardless of what they laws are.
DeleteA bit off topic, sorry but I can't help sharing this one. I went to check Josh Freed's blog on L'Actualité magazine, just to see how things are going for him. This is a response I got on a comment about people speaking Québecois. I just thought you all might find it interesting. I think we need a few responses to this person's outrage. Apparatichik -- we need you here!
ReplyDelete@laurie
«Un Québecois peut être anglais, français, espagnol,»
N’importe quoi! Ce que vous écrivez c’est n’importe quoi!
Est-ce qu’on dit qu’un Polonais peut être anglais, français, espagnol?
Est-ce qu’on dit qu’un Japonais peut être anglais, français, espagnol?
Vous êtes en plein délire trudeauiste!
Un Québécois c’est quelqu’un qui parle français comme un Québécois. Point à la ligne. Quand j’entends quelqu’un parler français avec cet accent je sais immédiatement qu’il est québécois. S’il parle en anglais ou en espagnol (je parle les deux couramment), je reconnais 99 fois sur 100 l’accent québécois. Alors vous ne verrez jamais parler en anglais pendant 10 minutes avec un Québécois. Impossible.
Si vous êtes anglophone, vous êtes Canadian, Américain, Brit, Aussie ou Kiwi. Si vous êtes hispanophone, ben vous êtes Mexicain, Chilien, Argentin ou Espagnol. Mais certainement pas québécois. Faut pas prendre des vessies pour des lanternes.
http://www2.lactualite.com/freed/2012/04/04/conversations/?cp=all
Growing pains.
DeleteSmells similar to a show that's already aired on hyphenated Americans.
Bigotry is as bigotry does. And, ironically, it knows no borders.
Personally people in the ROC can no longer tell that I have a french accent. I surprise people all the time by revealing that, in spite of my obviously french last name. Too many assimilated franco descendants, maybe.
DeleteYou remind me of people in Ontario that told me that I could not consider myself both Acadian and Canadian - I had to choose which one I was.
You talking to me or about the post Laurie copy-pasted?
DeleteAbout Laurie.
Delete@Apparatchik
DeleteThanks, I saw your comment.
@ Anonymous 11:54.
I believe you have mistaken my post as something I wrote. It is a copy of a text from another site where someone has replied to me.
I think anonymous was just relating with what you wrote. Basically, he said, just as that writer couldn't believe that someone could be a Quebecois who is anglophone, people in Ontario didn't want to accept that he was an Acadian and Canadian at the same time. Close minded people.
DeleteHave to admit I did not proof-read, Laurie. My appologies.
DeleteI certainly do relate to what that person wrote. What close-mindedness.
Identity is decided by the self, if one identifies with two different nationalities, or with a subnationality, who are we to argue?
> Thanks, I saw your comment.
Delete;-)
Nous assistons à Montréal à un phénomène plutôt intéressant:Plus la quantité d'anglos augmente plus la qualité diminue.Il s'agit d'une relation inversement proportionnelle qui expliquerait beaucoup de choses...Hmmmm
ReplyDeleteHide under your bed. We're going to take over.
Deleteha ha ha ha ha!
Delete"We're going to take over."
DeleteHonnêtement,je crois que vous n'avez pas le potentiel nécessaire.Les anglos de qualité ont quitté le Québec et ces derniers étaient beaucoup plus combatifs,plus énergiques.Une manifestation de 5 anglos contre la loi 101,c'est plutôt "loser".N'est-ce-pas?
Ces anglos désormais ailleurs, eurent-ils été beaucoup plus combatifs et énergiques, auraient combattu. Étant insuffisamment bilingues ou par simple crainte, ils ont quitté.
DeleteUne manif de 5 anglos ça peut faire un peu loser. Mais les mêmes manifesteux soutenus par les mêmes voyoucrates avec leur bandrole du petit vieux de '38, ça fait pitié aussi, faut l'avouer.
Potentiel vs. aucun potentiel. Soit l'anglais et les anglophones constituent une vraie menace, soit ce n'est pas vrai. S'il n'ont pas ce qu'il faut pour leur grande "reprise", vous venez d'avouer que toutes les prestations dramatiques auxquelles nous avons eu droit récemment ne sont finalement que du théâtre.
Nous ne tuons pas les mouches avec des AK 47.Imaginez la situation mais avec 1000 anglouilles dans la rue.
DeleteAlors c'est bien leur mort que vous souhaitez, ou encore le sentiment d'invincibilité an manipulant un tue-mouche gigantesque?
DeleteIls ne sont pas menaçants mais par qui ou quoi allons-nous remplacer nos bonnes vieilles têtes de turcs par excellence?
DeleteOn se déniaise une fois pour toutes. On se retrousse les manches, on accepte des affiches bilingues et que tout le monde soit au moins passivement bilingue et on continue à vivre.
DeleteÇa pourrait être la ruine de l'industrie de l'anglophobie au Québec, mais j'oserais penser que ces mêmes gens anglophobes qui aujourd'hui sont animées par une haine viscérale de tout ce qui est bilingue pourraient se recycler éventuellement et devenir des citoyens modèles.
Pas toujours besoin d'un ennemi.
@ Anonymous troll
DeleteDon't worry your little head about it.
"On se retrousse les manches"
DeleteComme dans la nouvelle pub du NPD avec Thomas?
"Ça pourrait être la ruine de l'industrie de l'anglophobie au Québec"
DeleteVous semblez vous soucier très peu de la colossale perte d'emplois qu'engendrerait la chute de cette entreprise (100% Québécoise) bâtie au cours des cinq ou six dernières décennies.Vous n'avez donc aucun coeur?
Au contraire; peut-être aurais-je plus de confiance en notre ingéniosité, inventivité, et savoir-faire que vous.
DeleteDe toute façon, notre limon rose intellectuel édition Québec nuit à notre santé collective.
Contrary to what M.Patrice says, I think the chances for Jesus Christ or a non-English-speaking Einstein to find employment in the RoC are within a realm of possibility. If their superb talents were recognized, accommodations could be made without a bunch of fanatics screaming outside the building and mainstream media picking up on it and turning it into a headline story. I think the point that Editor tried to make is that language hysteria is a daily fact in Quebec, and it isn't in the RoC, so whereas other talents may override linguistic deficiencies in the RoC, they cannot in QC. So no screaming mob in the RoC demanding the removal of Jesus Christ from a management post in Toronto. And a screaming mob in QC demanding the removal of Jesus Christ from a management post in Montreal.
ReplyDeleteAs to why Einstein would even apply in QC, let's say he wasn't from here so he wasn't au courant with what's going on here, and someone asked him to take up a post, thinking that his language deficiencies will be compensated by the input he can provide like noone else in other matters. Einstein's language deficiency could be compensated, for example, by the fact that other coworkers speak Einstein's language, whatever it may be, or by hiring an interpreter. Say the employer would be willing to go for it, Einstein agreed, and...what happens next? We all know.
Point me to a single prestigious scientist/politician/doctor/anything working in the ROC with no understanding of english SVP.
DeleteI'll believe that anglos don't care about language the day they elect a MP or MLA that does not speak english.
Kinda disingenuous since English is spoken by a comparatively large number of people aspiring to management/higher-level roles, including in Quebec.
DeleteIf the shoe were on the other foot and the Germans had won World War II, I think it's not outlandish to think we'd all aspire to speak German to get ahead.
The lengths some people will go to to limit themselves. Sheesh...
"Point me to a single prestigious scientist/politician/doctor/anything working in the ROC with no understanding of english SVP."
DeleteI haven't seen a mob outside any building in the RoC denouncing a guy like that, so I don't know. So either such guys don't exist so the mob stays home, or such guys do exist but the mob doesn't care, which is my point.
Apparatchik is also right. English being the lingua franca means that the pool of professors/scientists/managers speaking English is greater. It also means that since English is lingua franca, it is spoken by peer scientists/professors/managers in QC, who can then accommodate a non-French speaker more easily. Scientists in the RoC can't accommodate a non-English speaker as easily. So what's practical in the RoC in Quebec is political or often a question of bad will. Because there is a difference between an employer in the RoC saying: can't accept you because nobody here speaks your language and you don't know English, and an employer in QC saying: can't accept you because despite the fact that everyone here could speak to you in English, I don't like the fact that you don't speak French, or the HR of my company has an arbitrary internal rule, or I'm afraid an angry mob will trash my office tomorrow, or because the govt will send an "inspector" who will then harass me with arbitrary fines...
See? Political considerations vs. practical ones.
That's kind of the point, though. People from all over the world learn english, go to english countries, work in english, etc... no one denies it. Anglos can feel that language is no issue in the ROC because they already have things as they want them. They are pretty much guaranteed that everyone they encounter can communicate with them.
DeleteTo get anglos to bother learning french and communicate with them in their language, Quebec francos have been forced to raise a massive stink about it ever since the 60's. I'm not sure how not raising the massive stink is supposed to lead to anything other than more people coming here being CEOs/researchers/MPs/coach/etc... without being able to communicate with the locals.
Seems to me you think that those people being unable to communicate with locals is no big deal, but I don't see you having to go through the same thing so I'm not convinced.
I'm sure that there are immigrants who come to the ROC speaking little or no English,
Deletejust as there are immigrants who come to Quebec speaking little or no French. Both
immigrants learn the native language of their new home. But I think immigrants who
come to the ROC find that Anglo Canadians aren't particularly worried if they also go
on to learn French, or if they speak their native language at home instead of English,
or even if they are becoming fully "integrated" into English Canadian culture than French
Canadians in Quebec.
I understand what you mean.
DeleteBut these immigrants who come to the ROC speaking little or no English go on and learn English. Anglo-Canadians in the ROC might be more worried if they did not, or if they learned French only.
The situation might seem ludicrous to you, but it is what francos are afraid might happen to Montreal.
Separatist francos maybe, but not the more than 80% Franco Montréalais who want La Province Canadienne De Montréal to share with their English and Ethnic Canadian Brothers!!
DeleteVIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTRÉAL!!
@ GenDenis
DeleteLa majorité des montréalais francophones ont voté oui en 1995 (demandez au directeur général des élections) alors votre 80% sorti de nulle part...
Même les montréalais francophones fédéralistes en général ne semblent pas vouloir se séparer du Québec. Quel est l'intérêt? Donnez-moi des raisons valables.
Vous parlez de frères anglos et ethniques? Et ceux qui nous insultent et ne veulent rien savoir de notre langue, sont-ils nos frères aussi? Les vrais frères des franco-montréalais sont dans le reste du Québec.
BANG!!!!
Delete"To get anglos to bother learning french and communicate with them in their language, Quebec francos have been forced to raise a massive stink about it ever since the 60's."
DeleteNow you have to ask yourself if it was worth it. Anglos and Allos speak your language now, but many do it through gritted teeth and stop the minute you turn around. You gained some satisfaction over something that seems to me so irrelevant. (I, a native Polish speaker, don't care the least if a foreigner learns my language or not. It eludes me why the Quebecois care. I think they had it driven into their heads, because caring about such nonsense seems so unnatural.) In return, you lost something much more valuable - the sympathy of the neutrals who were watching from the side and sympathized with you.
Also, an important issue here is that you didn't just raise stink. The issue is that you continue to raise it. This stupid issue does NOT go away. You people blab about it constantly since about the 1960s. And I have a question. If you say that today, 35 years after the passage of bill 101 Montreal is back to what it was in the early 1970s. is it grounds to:
1. Assume that Bill 101 is not coercive enough and needs to be strengthened
or maybe, just maybe
2. Bill 101 did not work and maybe we should move on to something else. After all, there is education, infrastructure, health care, etc...more universal issues that we ALL could relate to.
"Et ceux qui nous insultent et ne veulent rien savoir de notre langue,"
DeleteYet we all read your posts in your language, and reply to them.
There goes the theory of us not wanting to know your language.
Vous ne semblez pas bien saisir la phrase que vous citez, adski.
DeleteJ'ai demandé si ceux qui ne veulent rien savoir du français sont nos frères aussi. À aucun endroit il est écrit que ça s'applique à tous les non-francophones, d'où le « Et ceux » ce qui n'est pas du tout la même chose que simplement « Ceux » mais veut plutôt dire « Même ceux » et c'est pour cela que ça finit avec un « aussi » et un point d'interrogation parce que si j'avais voulu dire tous, pourquoi aurais-je demandé si eux aussi sont nos frères ?
Ou en anglais pour être sûr que vous comprenez: And those who insult us and don't want anything to do with our language, are they our brothers too?
« It eludes me why the Quebecois care. »
DeleteMais, je ne comprends pas, je croyais que tout le monde au Québec était Québécois ?!?
I'm saying that most of those who "don't want to know your language" and "insult you" ironically do know your language. You did succeed in creating an environment in which even the most resistant types will learn at least some of your language. But now you're stuck with them insulting you and doing all kinds of crap, things they didn't do before. Why are they doing it? For what reason? Maybe there is a reason? When you continue beating people over the heads with a stick continuously and incessantly, maybe it is unreasonable to expect social harmony? Maybe some insults will float around? Maybe. Maybe not.
DeleteAnd was it all worth it? Wouldn't it have been better to secure your rights and stop at some more reasonable point? Without tearing down apostrophes, banning languages from public space, etc...What have you really gained? The right to call yourselves maitres, even though you have to repeat it every day as if you're not convinced of it yourselves? Getting French to be the sole official language even though you still have to know English to get a good job? Calling yourselves hosts even though the "guests" don't see you as such?
You managed to poison social relations, which might have been poisoned before but remained poisoned after the 1960's. There might have been some shuffling of personnel, but social relations in this province remained rotten and continue to be rotten.
"Mais, je ne comprends pas, je croyais que tout le monde au Québec était Québécois ?!?"
DeleteAccording to you, no. According to me, no. According to some Anglos and Allos here, yes. But I think even they know that they're reaching.
You can only become a Quebecois by an accident of birth. There is no other way. You can get your French down perfect, and they'll still point to your accent, your last name, your place of birth, your political views, etc...
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't get along. We should, but us getting along is not in the interest of those in power. They'd rather keep us fragmented and divided.
"La majorité des montréalais francophones ont voté oui en 1995 (demandez au directeur général des élections) alors votre 80% sorti de nulle part..."
DeleteI don't know the exact percentages, but I agree. 80% is probably too high, and we can't assume something about a francophone just because she/she lives in Montreal. For some, exposure to alternatives (like other cultures, languages) makes them get out of the indoctrination trap and helps see another world out there. For others, alternatives pose a threat so they clam up and retreat into the trap even more so than their "un-threatened" brethren up north. After all, streets in Montreal Est are lined with Quebec flags and ""un nouveau pays" posters...
Let's not forget that the Outremont "elite" is sitting right in the middle of the city and UQAM is right in the middle of the city. The most insidious propaganda comes from these two centers, and Montreal francophones are the closest to it and absorb a big chunk of it, and it takes a really independent mind to cut through the layers of PR that get thrown at them every day, through mainstream newspapers, TV, and what not.
So yes, the issue is not so clear cut.
>You can only become a Quebecois by an accident of birth. There is no other way. You can get your French down perfect, and they'll still point to your accent, your last name, your place of birth, your political views, etc...
DeleteThat's where I think I part ways with you, adski. I have seen this childish identity free-for-all for what it is, and have taken a more pragmatic tack. Rather than wonder how much of a Canadian, Quebecer, and Montrealer I am, I figure I'm a stakeholder to all three (if only by virtue of the fact that I subsidize the wasteful spending of all three), so I'll be damned if I exclude myself, and denounce any asshole (French, English, White, Black, red, or blue) who dares even suggest that I'm insufficiently one or the other.
There's nothing wrong in even YOU appropriating a label that in any other province our country's context would apply naturally without so much as a second thought. It's no water off YOUR back, and it'll eventually cause the separatists to fall back on a different identifier for themselves. When they realize what we've known forever, namely, that the ranks of their "in-crowd" is almost exclusively the stereotypical angry white French-Canadian with a hard-on for and an axe to grind with anything English, maybe they'll be able to PUBLICLY look their decades-old complex in the face and see it for the exclusivist ethnolinguistic caste system that it is.
I already see evidence that the process has begun:
- The annual angst over English-language performances at various Fête Nationale venues
- The supposedly crazy Huntingdon and Chateauguay exceptions
- The increasing number of vocal French-Canadian parents from homogeneous regions in Quebec demanding better English taught to their children (and corresponding angst chronicled by "concerned" teachers)
- Improved French-language immersion programs in English-language elementary and secondary institutions
- A bilingual, under-35 professional class: francophones, anglophones, and allophones proudly able to speak both official languages with ease and for whom this is all so very petty... not to mention, passé
As I see it, the real work to be done in the coming years will have everything to do with sorting out the bad apples who protest over anything, and making necessary pragmatic adjustments to ensure both languages -- at least as far as Montreal is concerned -- maintain and enjoy continued equal vitality.
« You can only become a Quebecois by an accident of birth. There is no other way. You can get your French down perfect, and they'll still point to your accent, your last name, your place of birth, your political views, etc... »
DeleteJe lis vos critères et j'en viens à la conclusion que celle qui jouait Grand-Mère dans Passe-Partout n'est pas Québécoise ?!?
J'étais enfant et je voyait en elle une femme du même peuple que le mien. Seppie, lis-tu ceci ? T'as déjà douté de sa Québécité, toé ?
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Yaroshevskaya
Elle est une Slave de naissance, elle aussi. Devriez peut-être prendre exemple sur elle en matière d'intégration, adski. Pourquoi ça fonctionne bien pour certains ?
Parlant de Québécoises avec des origines russes, connaissez-vous Tatiana Polevoy de MusiquePlus ?
Deletehttp://images.lpcdn.ca/435x290/201010/28/211281.jpg
Pourquoi est-elle acceptée et pas vous, adski ?
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/arts-et-spectacles/television-et-radio/201010/28/01-4337196-tatiana-polevoy-en-declin-le-videoclip-oh-que-non.php
Bon on dirait qu'elle est en fait plutôt Québécoise de souche avec seulement un grand-père Russe mais pendant longtemps je croyais que c'était une enfant de la loi 101 et je l'ai toujours considérée comme Québécoise puisqu'elle se comporte comme une Québécoise et pourtant je croyais qu'elle était 100% Russe. C'est pas comme si je ne l'acceptais pas puis, en apprenant qu'elle a des origines Canadiennes-françaises mais un prénom et un nom étranger (un des deux ou les deux sont communs chez plusieurs gens ayant des origines Canadiennes-françaises et clairement considérés Québécois de souche) je me suis mis à l'accepter comme Québécoise. Non, en pratique, ça ne fait pas de différence pour mon opinion. Sûrement que je suis loin d'être le seul à penser comme ça. Sûrement que bien des gens qui la regarde pense qu'elle est totalement d'origine étrangère et l'accepte quand même donc elle serait 100% Russe comme Kim Yaroshevskaya que ça ferait pas vraiment de différence.
Encore : pourquoi ces femmes sont acceptées et pas vous, adski ?
Quelqu'un vous a demandé d'où venait votre nom par curiosité (donc envie d'en apprendre sur le monde) et vous avez pris ça pour du racisme ?
Il est où le problème, adski ? Notre précieuse loi 101 vous a appris le français, non ?
DeleteVoici une femme qui est 100% Polonaise comme vous et jugeant par son âge, une enfant de la loi 101 et pourtant, elle fût acceptée pour chanter à cette très populaire émission de TVA bien qu'elle chante assez mal mais c'est plus pour s'amuser :
http://tva.canoe.ca/video/1305072108001
Elle ne rejète pas la loi 101 comme vous. C'est grâce à cette loi qu'on peut communiquer.
Vous avez le choix : rester parano et triste ou vous joindre au peuple Québécois sans pour autant renier vos racines, c'est ce qu'a fait cette Daria (qui ne cache pas ses origines) et nous l'acceptons.
J'aimerais bien inviter cette blonde plutôt enrobée à un souper de saucisses polonaises et de bières coulant à flots :)
DeletePourquoi est-elle acceptée et pas vous, adski ?
DeleteBonne chance pour la réponse....Tic tac tic tac tic...
"J'étais enfant et je voyait en elle une femme du même peuple que le mien. Seppie, lis-tu ceci ? T'as déjà douté de sa Québécité, toé ?"
DeleteNon jamais et elle a aussi bercé mon enfance.
Le gars qui s'occupe du recyclage et des poubelles au bureau s'interroge sur la quantité impressionnante de CV rédigés en anglais se retrouvant dans les poubelles chaque semaine.
ReplyDeleteQue répondre à une telle question lorsque celui qui la pose est lui-même un allo globish-O-phile?
Qu'un jour, avec l'évolution d'attitude déjà en place chez nous, que sa gang bilingue pourra et devra accéder non seulement au poste de pdg des plus grandes entreprises du Québec, mais partout sur l'organigramme ;-)
DeleteÇa s'en vient. Inquietez-vous pas.
Hi Anonymous,
DeleteThe same thing must be happening to you. But it must be worse for you because you're a francophone who can't find a job in Quebec.
Certaines personnes nous ont proposé l'achat d'une déchiqueteuse afin d'éviter certaines questions inutiles.Qu'en pensez-vous?
DeleteDifficile de faire passer ça comme étant d'une vérité absolue.
DeleteTout comme l'histoire du patron qui sépare son gros tas de CV en deux parties égales, jette la première moitié aux vidanges tout en s'écriant "moi, je n'engage pas du monde malchanceux!"
En tout cas, moi à votre place, j'aimerais mieux avoir les hosties d'anglouilles là où je peux les voir dans les grandes entreprises québécoises plutôt que de les laisser partir encore d'autres PME où ils peuvent piétiner et bafouer à leur méchante façon légendaire les droits linguistiques des pôvres francophones qu'ils exploitent pour quinze cents l'heure.
Une histoire fictive en vaut une autre.
Dear Anonymous, why buy a shredder? Would it be embarrassing telling the truth to "un allo globish-O-phile"? You should totally stand by behind your opinions. Make it clear that the no anglophone is allowed to be employed higher up than the custodian department in the company *wink, wink*.
Delete"You should totally stand by behind your opinions."
DeleteNe pas confondre mon opinion personnelle avec la politique de l'entreprise.Personnellement j'adore les femmes avec un accent (sexy) mais mon patron considère que ce n'est pas bon pour les affaires (98% de notre clientèle est francophone).
@ Anonymous
DeleteThanks for another made up story.
Good luck on the job search!
ahhhh good old Michel Patrice is at it again. His Racist French Language Taliban friends slept in this morning so he decided to try and play nice with everyone in english. Of course he wants his children to speak english as all the separatist elite and those who aspire to be the separatist elite know very well the importance of speaking the oppressor's language. He tries to paint this stance as open and accepting when it is really just cynical and opportunistic. I'm glad people on this blog are smart enough to see him for what he is.
ReplyDeleteYou know maybe the Pur laine chauvanists should give up on making Montreal as French as Toronto is English. Montreal always had a large English speaking population. While Toronto never had a large French speaking population. Ottawa is a more accurate comparison to Montreal then Toronto. IF I were the Parti Quebecois, I would move as many government related businesses and departmental head offices like that of Caisse de Depots, Hydro Quebec, Loto Quebec, out of Montreal Island and encourage Quebecois companies like Desjardins, Jean Coutu, Quebecor, to a place like Trois Rivieres or Drummondville where the economic spin offs would help the Pur Laine heartland. As for Montreal and other anglo-allo areas I would give them special status where bill 101 would be exempt or a more toned down version of it like bill 22 would be implemented. Then I would add special taxes for the privledge of living in those areas. Montreal would become a Canadian economic powerhouse and where a large portion of the taxes raised in Montreal would be spent in the more pur laine regions. Kind of like Equalization on a provincial scale. Most of the anti-anglo and allo Pur Lainers would move to a more Pure Laine version of Montreal in the smaller cities mentioned before and reap the economic benefits. Also Immigration Quebec selected immigrants under the French Criteria would probably more likely adapt French if they lived in Trois Rivieres then in Montreal. While the economic immigrants that spoke english as an official language would probably go to Montreal.
ReplyDeleteYou had me until you didn't. Then it was downhill from there.
DeleteIF I were the Parti Quebecois, I would [...] As for Montreal and other anglo-allo areas I would give them special status where bill 101 would be exempt or a more toned down version of it like bill 22 would be implemented. Then I would add special taxes for the privledge of living in those areas.
Your scheme sounds a lot like paying for mafia-style extortion. Or alternatively, like disemboweling a goose, cutting off its head, and then telling it to lay golden eggs. Civil rights and indeed justice itself are not negotiable pawns that can be bought and sold as "privileges" on the backs of certain members of society. Idiocy like this should be repugnant to anybody who believes in basic human dignity and freedom. It's inconceivable that you'd even go here.
>Montreal would become a Canadian economic powerhouse and where a large portion of the taxes raised in Montreal would be spent in the more pur laine regions.
So basically strip what we've already got, let English-friendlier money magically build a new economy overnight, and then tax the shit out of us so we can fork it over to white people in the boonies who'll hate us just the same? How's this any different or better than what we've already got? Are you high?
>Kind of like Equalization on a provincial scale.
With half the population and already the province's economic powerhouse, the scheme you're suggesting is better how?
>Most of the anti-anglo and allo Pur Lainers would move to a more Pure Laine version of Montreal in the smaller cities mentioned before and reap the economic benefits.
Again, we're buying the peace AND losing our existing benefits? Smells like double-taxation for a very little something we ought to ALREADY be getting for FREE!
>Also Immigration Quebec selected immigrants under the French Criteria would probably more likely adapt French if they lived in Trois Rivieres then in Montreal. While the economic immigrants that spoke english as an official language would probably go to Montreal.
What's wrong with bilingualism being a non-negotiable imperative for everybody, ESPECIALLY for immigrants (this is already largely the case)? Do you realize that if we spent this much time learning each others' language rather than bitching over the size of signage lettering or a handful of unilingual executives we could be much farther ahead?
Apparatchik,
DeleteI wasn't suggesting I would prefer this myself. Just saying how I would run things on the sly if I was the PQ. Anglos and Allos wouldn't realize they were getting the shaft. They would be happy just to be in the pretense that they have linguistic freedom. They would enjoy their prosperity and would ignore the fact they were being squeezed. Not much better then now in many aspects, but still somewhat better.
Gérald Godin's comparison has always been such an incredibly false one... given how the histories of anglophones in Montreal and francophones in Toronto are so utterly, completely and dramatically different. Anybody who implies these two should be comparable or equal in any way, shape or form is so spectacularly misguided that it is simply breathtaking that anyone could take them at their word...
Delete> I wasn't suggesting I would prefer this myself. Just saying how I would run things on the sly if I was the PQ.
DeleteGood thing the PQ doesn't want to put itself through the exercise.
>Anglos and Allos wouldn't realize they were getting the shaft.
The thing that always irritated me was that, when you think about it, the PQ's position on identity and language politics is perhaps even more insulting to its supposed target constituency than it is to its so-called "enemies".
> They would be happy just to be in the pretense that they have linguistic freedom. They would enjoy their prosperity and would ignore the fact they were being squeezed.
You must think the supposed beneficiaries of your little scheme are morons.
@Cat:
Completely agree with you. But separatist logic trumps reason, so that pretty much means there's never been a noteworthy anglo presence in Quebec's hinterland, and hearing a merchant and customer speak to each other in English at Carrefour Laval is a horrendously insulting act.
Alas, this idiocy either needs to be taken head on point by point, or be allowed to fade away by way of the general public's indifference.
@Apparatchik
Delete"You must think the supposed beneficiaries of your little scheme are morons. " No just sheep especially the majority of the Anglos. I still remember how many of them voted NDP for that oncle Tom Mulcair. Its been 30 plus years of Bill 101 and they haven't done much to fight for their rights.
Sorry; I suppose you're right.
DeleteI'm not exactly your Westmount Rhodesian, so perhaps I'm not the stereotypical "anglo" imagined by the snake-tongued separatists who continue to peddle the continued effacement of English as being a necessary and even sometimes laudable side-effect of the French-language rehab that's taken place.
I also don't support Mulcair or even Layton before him not just on the basis of what I generally consider to be the NDP's somewhat less fiscally responsible policies, but also because of both men's capitulation to unilingual bullying as being something good for both Quebec and Canada, both in the short- and long-term.
« hearing a merchant and customer speak to each other in English at Carrefour Laval is a horrendously insulting act. »
DeleteIl y a quand même toute une différence entre entendre une personne parler anglais à une autre sans être concerné et se faire servir en anglais alors qu'on préférerait du service en français. Mais, évidemment, j'imagine que c'est à la majorité locale de s'adapter aux nouveaux venus qui sont minoritaires et non le contraire. Parce que l'anglais est la langue la plus parlée sur ce continent qu'on nous dit, même si ce n'est pas le cas localement. Oser même questionner l'absurdité de cela serait de l'intolérance et un manque d'ouverture.
Il est très important de s'ouvrir à l'anglais, apparemment. S'ouvrir au français ? Totalement optionnel.
Arrêtez-donc de vous faire accroire. Je fais très souvent mes achats dans ces régions à forte majorité fédéralistes et anglophones/allophones, le plus souvent en français.
DeleteJe ne me rappelle même pas à quand remonte le dernier échange lors duquel j'ai été obligé de transiger en anglais.
Il y a quand même toute une différence entre entendre une personne parler anglais à une autre sans être concerné et se faire servir en anglais alors qu'on préférerait du service en français.
> Alors d'où viennent ces propos alarmistes du genre "on entend parler beaucoup plus anglais au Carrefour/sur le Plateau/etc."? Il me semble que ces mêmes alarmistes polémistes possèdent un vocabulaire assez vaste pour faire la distinction pas trop subtile entre "on entend", "on nous accueille" et "on nous force à transiger" en anglais. L'hypocrisie langagière trahit l'objectif véritable, lequel est d'effacer toute trace d'anglais afin que tout bon francophone n'ait pas à se salir les yeux/oreilles. Qu'on déguise l'intolérance à coeur joie, c'est du racisme, pur et simple.
>Mais, évidemment, j'imagine que c'est à la majorité locale de s'adapter aux nouveaux venus qui sont minoritaires et non le contraire. Parce que l'anglais est la langue la plus parlée sur ce continent qu'on nous dit, même si ce n'est pas le cas localement. Oser même questionner l'absurdité de cela serait de l'intolérance et un manque d'ouverture.
Là n'est pas où l'on est. Peu de gens disputent l'importance de pouvoir accueillir des clients dans la langue de leur choix. À défaut de se faire servir dans la langue qu'on préfère, on peut toujours voter avec ses pieds, comme disent les anglais.
Ce que l'on discute/dispute semble tourner autour de l'acceptabilité sociale de l'anglais, langue officielle du pays, même par des CLIENTS, dans des contextes publics. Il y a ceux qui crient au génocide culturel du fait d'avoir à voir d'autres se faire servir en anglais et soulèvent tout un tollé pour des cas d'espèce de marchands unilingues anglophones.
Si vous vous voulez vraiment neutre, promenez-vous dans 100 commerces distribués aléatoirement partout sur le grand Montréal, caméra cachée à l'appui. Adressez-vous uniquement en français au préposé. Retournez le jour suivant et faites le même exercice, uniquement en anglais. Montrez-moi ensuite où est le "recul" d'une langue par rapport à l'autre.
Jusqu'alors, abstenez-vous de faire des propos imbéciles.
Des cas d'espèce de marchands unilingues anglophones ? Des propos imbéciles ?
DeleteJe n'ai pas à faire quelconque exercice. Ça a déjà été fait par des journalistes. Exemple :
http://www.vigile.net/Le-francais-pas-important
« Dans huit endroits sur 15, elle n’a jamais été obligée de dire un seul mot de français. »
Vous avez mentionné le plateau, Apparatchik :
« Elle a été engagée comme vendeuse sur le Plateau sans même que la gérante lui demande si elle parlait français.
Plusieurs patrons ont d’ailleurs félicité la journaliste, qui servait en anglais des clients majoritairement francophones. »
« La journaliste, qui peut s’exprimer en anglais sans accent »
Donc cette Noée Murchison est un peu comme Apparatchik avec un parent anglophone et un parent francophone sauf que Noée, elle, a bien tourné. Elle est consciente que c'est loin d'être rare de ne pas pouvoir être servi en français et elle contribue à dénoncer le phénomène au lieu d'essayer d'endormir la majorité non-naturellement bilingue « fluente » dans les deux langues en leur disant qu'il n'y en a pas de problème comme s'obstine à faire ce cher Apparatchik.
Ouais. Je l'aime bien cette Noée.
You seem to like alot of girls who don't like you back anonymous 11:46 AM
Delete"You know maybe the"...Blablabla.
ReplyDeleteMontréal a été reconquise par les Québécois,la preuve tout est en français sauf pour les hors-la-loi.
"Montréal a été reconquise"...Blablabla
DeleteWe're not living in the 1700's or 1800's. Which armies are you talking about now, for heaven's sake? MDR!!!
@anon 6:02
DeleteIf montreal was reconquered by the Quebecois, (which is an oxymoron because they would lose in any military struggle anyway) how come all the paranoia from Gilles Proulx and his kind about Montreal becoming an English city. Despite 34 years of Bill 101.
"Montreal becoming an English city"
DeletePas de problème pourvu que le visage reste français.
yes anon 7:03 PM
DeleteI also want the "visage" to seem french. Then when numbers warrant from Montreal to the Ontario border. SUPRISE PARTITION!
>Pas de problème pourvu que le visage reste français.
DeleteIdiotie vaniteuse et superficielle.
Bilingue. Non-négociable.
Sinon au choix.
Well said Apparatchik!
DeleteSinon, VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTRÉAL!!
"Bilingue. Non-négociable."
DeleteL'anglais est moins vendeur pour les touristes...
"Montréal est la deuxième plus grande ville francophone...au monde!!!"
http://imtl.org/montreal_en_chiffres.php
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_principales_villes_francophones
DeleteDésolé d'avoir eu à vous désabuser de votre lubie.
>il est déroutant de voir que Ottawa, avec ses 800 000 habitants, 15% d'entre eux pour qui le français comme langue maternelle et 38% sachant parler français, ne figure pas sûr la liste tandis que plusieurs villes plus petites et également ou moins francophone (comme Constantine, Algérie) y figurent.
DeleteC'était d'ailleurs un des réflexes que j'ai eu en consultant cette même liste.
Le terme conquis n'est pas seulement militaire puisque nous pouvons conquérir le coeur d'une femme.La subtilité de notre langue est magnifique.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you have ever won a women's heart.
DeleteAnd I didn't know that French is the only language that could be subtle.
All the more incomprehensible that the English language can't be subtle when the word itself exists in the English language.
What a freak. The same "subtle" thing can be said in any language on Earth...
DeleteWhy stop at coaches or executives? I can see the time coming when Habs general managers will be forced to pass over more talented players to select players who speak French, and then only players whose mother tongue is French and have a French surname.
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing wrong with having French speaking Quebeckers on the Habs. They won all their Stanley Cups with French-Canadians working together with English Canadians. I don't think it will ever come to the point where there will be a team of ONLY the worst francophone underachievers playing on the team and the team not winning and not making the playoffs and Habs fans being okay with it.
DeleteIn the 90's the Habs were having problems with attendance when they were playing particularly poorly. Fans here are not like Leafs fans. They don't support 7 years of not making the playoffs. In addition, we are not the Nordiques. We expect more.
The Habs would do well do add some players that have local pride. David Deharnais is not playing badly. And when you add to that players such as Pacioretty and Cole, you have the beginning of a strong team with a solid 1st line.
So, I believe having solid French-speaking players in their lineup is an advantage that the Habs should have over other teams.
As for coaches or executives, hire the best people for the job, but give francophones a chance.
"only players whose mother tongue is French and have a French surname."
DeleteVous faites encore une fixation sur les noms.
C'est pas une question de nom et c'est pas nouveau. Déjà en Nouvelle-France il y avait des noms autres que français.
Peter MacLeod l'humoriste est francophone et René Bourque le hockeyeur est anglophone.
> Vous faites encore une fixation sur les noms.
DeleteEncore une fois, tu projettes, Seppie.
Est-ce pour ça que vos polémistes séparatouilles s'amusent à lancer des insultes ethnoidentitaires à "John James Charest" alors même que le premier ministre n'a lui-même de son propre chef jamais utilisé cette même appellation?
Seppie,c'est moi.Encore un parano.
DeleteSeppie, t'es encore un parano? Ecoute les Anglais viennent pas te chercher. Quand tu deviens federaliste, tout va etre claire :)
Delete@ Apparatchik
DeleteHé ho j'ai écrit ça et en effet, je ne suis pas Seppie mais je l'aime bien, par contre, Seppie.
Les séparatouilles (moi inclus) utilisent le surnom John James pour rappeler qu'il est un anglicisateur mais c'est pas la même chose que de ne pas accepter des gens ayant le français comme langue maternelle mais ayant un nom non-français. Ça ne veut même pas dire rejeter les gens ayant aussi l'anglais comme langue maternelle. Ça veut juste dire qu'ils ne veulent pas d'un premier ministre qui veut imposer son autre langue à la majorité francophone, comme avec ces cours d'anglais intensif.
Le gars a dit French surname. Ouais, doit être pour ça que je pourrais lister plusieurs députés péquistes et bloquistes aux noms non-français. Je ne fait pas de fixation sur les noms, j'ai plusieurs noms de diverses origines dans mon arbre généalogique et je suis tanné de cette ignorance de la réalité des francophones présente chez certains anglos, c'est à dire que nous saurions obsedés par la pureté ethnique alors que nous sommes souvent mélangés et qu'il y aurait une discrimination basée sur le nom. Peut-être sur la langue maternelle mais le nom? Les anglos ils acceptent les anglophones avec des noms français et bien c'est pas mal pareil ici mais l'inverse. Pour ce qui est de la langue c'est une tout autre histoire, là ils acceptent pas aussi facilement. Je sais de quoi je parle, j'ai grandi à Oshawa, Ontario.
@abrasif 404,
ReplyDeleteI guess in that case I've conquered alot of Pur Laine womens' hearts, very easily I might add and en Anglais.
Though most of the Pur Laine guys gave me dirty looks when I did.
Who cares what language the Coach speaks, as long as they win!
ReplyDeleteGo Habs Go! (for next year)
DeleteThere was a poll in Scotland a little over a week ago where they asked the Scots whether they would vote for independence if;
ReplyDelete- independence makes them £500 worse off annually. The answer was no.
- independence makes them £500 better off, annually. Surprise, surprise: the answer was yes.
How do you think this poll would go down in Kweebec?
Every time the constitutional thing comes up and the separatists get restless, our economy goes down the crapper. Rather than worry the separatists, emboldens them.
DeleteTake from that what you will.
Not that the Scottish separatists have a much better argument than our domestic ones, as far as I'm concerned.
I have a friend who explained it to me once. He said "you can't put a price tag on freedom."
Delete@ Anonymous
DeleteApparently, you're wrong.
The price for Scottish people is £500.
For me, if £500 makes a difference, support for separation is not strong.
@ Mr. Marco:
I think you would get the same kind of response for Quebeckers. Even for the majority of the 40% of people who support separation in Quebec, it is not a burning desire, because they know that they already are free.
>I have a friend who explained it to me once. He said "you can't put a price tag on freedom."
DeleteHuh. And then there are those who say "freedom isn't free".
And then those who say "freedom at any cost."
How about "freedom is an illusion".
Maybe even "freedom or death."
Or, perhaps, "freedom from what?" and "freedom to what?"
But my personal favorite has to be the supposed dichotomy between " 'free as in speech' or 'free as in beer'? "
Spin the marketing lingo any way you want. I'm out.
What exactly are you not free to do in federalism?
DeleteMuch like the unwinnable "War on Terror", the argument here is equally hazy and circular and pretty much amounts to "Canadian federalism doesn't give us the freedom to be free".
DeleteSupport in favor of separatism/independence is based highly on identity politics and emotional hot-button issues, whereas functionally it won't change a damn thing for your average citizen.
Until I'm shown in what tangible way Quebec independence will be of any REAL benefit, I'm a solid No.
Je crois que Harper est un seppie.Sinon,il fait de l'excellent travail pour notre mouvement.
DeletePourtant, vous êtes toujours autour des 40% et Harper et là depuis bientôt 6 ans.
DeleteSeppieMaths à la rescousse!
"...Harper et là depuis bientôt 6 ans."
DeleteNotre patience a des limites.
Pas sûr.
DeleteVous avez voté Bloc pendant 20 ans sachant que vous ne parviendriez jamais à former un gouvernement comme ça, et encore moins influencer la politique interne et externe du pays au bénéfice des Québécois...
"Pourtant, vous êtes toujours autour des 40% et Harper et là depuis bientôt 6 ans."
DeletePercevez ce 40% (fixe) comme un invité qui passe la soirée chez vous mais avec la main sur la poignée de la porte de sortie.
@ Yannick
DeleteQu'est ce que le Bloc a fait pour le Quebec qui etait positif? (Besides blackmail about fiscal imbalance)
Si les gens ont voter plutot pour les Liberaux ou le NPD a ce temps la, je ne pense pas que Harper serait en pouvoir aujourd'hui.
Montréal est la deuxième plus grande ville francophone...au monde!!!
ReplyDeleteAvis aux anglos:
Les touristes adorent notre ville parce que française.SVP aidez-nous à conserver ce caractère distinctif.Ce qui est bon pour nous est bon pour vous.
I thought tourists came here for the Jazz festival, the Just for Laughs festival, NASCAR, and F1 racing. They also come here because they are ex-Montrealers and come to see the Habs once in a while or they come to visit family or visit old friends.
Delete"Montréal est la deuxième plus grande ville francophone...au monde!!!"
ReplyDeleteYou must have read that in "Le Pourboir", in some Micky Mouse stories, in your children's books or in your wife's secret diary...
You don't get it, do you? MontrEal was, is, has always been, will always be an English-speaking city.
Spread the voice, especially among the tourists.
WA
"MontrEal was, is, has always been, will always be an English-speaking city."
DeleteWhat a strange English-speaking city. One with a French-speaking mayor, a majority of French-speaking cops, majority of French-speaking bus drivers, French street signs, etc.
Oh and with far more people having French as their mother tongue than English.
Or else why don't more English-speakers declare themselves as such on the census? Why isn't the mayor an anglo? What's stopping you from electing one if it's so English as you pretend it is?
It's never been English-speaking only, you realize this? It's always had a large French-speaking population, as a majority even, ask Statistics Canada about the various censuses they've done throughout history.
It can be both the second biggest French-speaking city in the world and a city in which English is also spoken at the same time so why are you telling him it's an English-speaking city as if that changes the fact that it's also a French-speaking city. He didn't say it was French-only. It has a French-speaking population therefore it can be ranked among the top French-speaking cities without including the city's non-French-speakers. That's not denying they exist. Just like Brussels' French-speaking population can be ranked among French-speaking cities and its Dutch-speaking population can be ranked among Dutch-speaking cities. It's called bilingualism.
Also why are you correcting him when he wrote Montréal in French since it's spelled that way in French and was spelled that way on very old maps back when it was founded in New France (yet you say it's always been English-speaking, even English-Canadian historians would disagree) and the name is of French origin, writing it Montreal only came later because the é doesn't exist in English but Montreal is not an English word in any way etymologically-speaking, it's an old French word. You can spell it Montreal in English if you like (the government of Canada often spells it Montréal in English) but correcting someone who writes it Montréal in a French sentence? I don't know if that's what you meant by insisting on MontrEal but that's absurd, why should it not be written Montréal in a French text?
Spread the voice, especially among the tourists.
ReplyDeleteEt voilà! :
http://imtl.org/montreal_en_chiffres.php
It does not demonstrate anything. Just random data...Total failure :--(((((
DeleteWA
Almost everything related to the OQLF is a total failure :-)))
DeleteAgglomération Pays Habitants
DeleteParis France 12 000 000
Kinshasa République démocratique du Congo10 000 000
Casablanca Maroc 7 500 000
Abidjan Côte d'Ivoire 6 000 000
Alger Algérie 5 000 000
Montréal Canada 3 500 000
Bruxelles Belgique 2 700 000
Dakar Sénégal 2 500 000
Marakech Maroc 2 450 000
Rabat Maroc 2 300 000
Tunis Tunisie 2 000 000
Beyrouth Liban 2 000 000
@Apparatchik
DeleteLe concept de ville culturelle puissante vous échappe...Appy
Montréal-Paris,quelle dynamique extraordinaire!
Montréal, ville culturelle française des Amériques.
DeleteMontréal, ville culturelle anglaise du Québec, de l'Est de l'Ontario, et des états frontaliers.
T'allais où avec ça?
@Apparatchik
DeleteBOOM!
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A9al
LOL J'adore bien le tour de passe-passe verbal:
Delete"Montréal est considérée comme la deuxième ville francophone dans le monde après Paris"
"considérée comme" ça permet de ratisser pas mal large, n'est-ce pas? Nombre de locuteurs, nombre d'habitants, nombre de francotropes, nombre qui ont leur messagerie vocale en français...
Mais bon, je vous fais cette feinte bourrée de symbolisme:
"WE'RE NUMBER TWO! WE'RE NUMBER TWO! WE'RE NUMBER TWO!"
"nombre qui ont leur messagerie vocale en français"
DeleteLe message d'accueil de votre boîte vocale est dans quelle langue Ti-Tchick?Question de savoir si il correspond au message d'accueil que reçoivent les nouveaux arrivants.
Even though Montreal is not the 2nd largest french speaking city in the world, you can still say it is the largest french speaking city in North America. The important thing is that just because Montreal is the largest french speaking city in NA, it still is bilingual, in fact multilingual, and multicultural in nature. It is this reason that alot of people are attracted to Montreal.
Delete"You don't get it, do you? MontrEal was, is, has always been, will always be an English-speaking city."
ReplyDeleteAlors pourquoi nous n'avons pas le droit de nous afficher en anglais ? :(
It does not demonstrate anything. Just random data...Total failure :--(((((
DeleteWA
"You don't get it, do you? MontrEal was, is, has always been, will always be an English-speaking city."
ReplyDeleteEffectivement,dans certains secteurs.Nous respectons notre communauté anglophone parce qu'elle est un + pour notre ville.
No, in 90% of the fields in Montreal you MUST speak English.
Delete"pour notre ville.."
No, for OUR city which belongs to everybody...
WA
"Alors pourquoi nous n'avons pas le droit de nous afficher en anglais ? :("
ReplyDeleteYou have the right to put French signs (for now), but, if you don't speak English, pas de travail :-(((((((
How sad, isn't it? You'd better start taking English courses, because the chickens come back to roost (and this time it will be very very sad for people like you).
WA
Dernières Nouvelles:
ReplyDeleteNos troupes s'approchent de Montréal.
Anglos : À vos chèquiers ($):)
About English in Montreal, yeah, very good for touristic purposes. But let's see once you get a job and, moreover, live on eastern side.
ReplyDeleteI personally hate this city and planning to move to western side of Canada.
You are a new immigrant to Montreal?
Delete"I personally hate this city and planning to move to western side of Canada."
DeleteDe la musique pour mes oreilles...
Probably just a separatist trolling here pretending to be an immigrant
DeleteYou make my day smihaila, because it's always a good news to learn that Anglo or Ethnic-Anglo plans to leave Québec.
DeleteBut remember the most important is not to plan, is to leave. And you'll not be the only one.
Between 1966 and 1986, more than 220 000 Anglos and Ethnic-Anglos left Québec. A time that we can name "The Twenty Marvellous". That is to say the twenty marvellous years that english-speakers were leaving en masse.
We plan to revive this wonderful time. After a winning referendum we expect that half of the million english-speakers will leave Québec in ten years. It will be "The Ten Fabulous".
Le parti Québécois en avance selon les derniers sondages.Le Pl et la CAQ piquent du nez...Comme les F-35 :)
Delete"The Twenty Marvellous"
DeleteRemettons la loi 101 sur pieds et l'effet sera le même.
Déportons les séparatistes et ce sera le Three-million Marvelous.
DeleteNice try smihaila, Barnabé, Seppie, anonymous
Coudonc Tchicko,on se débrouille pas mal en globish pour des seppies :D
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteActually, you would all be surprised at how many anglos there are in the east end. Many of our schools may have closed but there is still a thriving community of anglos. I am not only talking about St-Leonard, but Mtl East and PAT. We may not be seen or heard very often (good anglos), but make no mistake, we are here.
ReplyDeleteGood to hear. I think it's better if the community lives throughout the island. Right now, I believe some places in the West Island are not as anglophone as they once were and some places in the East End are not as francophone as they once were. I have a francophone friend in the Plateau who said there are alot more anglophones there now. The more that English speaking and French speaking people are neighbours, the better it will be. And anyone who doesn't like it, can leave the island. I vote them off :)
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