Wednesday, March 23, 2011

Can McGill University Survive as an Elite School?

Last week's announcement by the Quebec government that it was 'fining' McGill University for charging almost $30K a year for an elite MBA, should have the university seriously concerned, not over the $2 million the government took away, but rather for its future as an elite school.
The government is arguing that the fine is based on the philosophy of equal access of students.

But McGill argues that it was subsidizing the MBA course out of its general fund and that students who graduate from the program to extremely high-paying jobs should be accountable for the cost of their education.

And so, is $30,000 really necessary for  an MBA course?

Well the 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating', so to speak. Since the fee increase, the McGill MBA program has jumped an astonishing 38 places in the world rankings according to the Financial Times.

2010 Financial Times World Business school rankings 2010- McGill- 95th place- LINK
2011 Financial Times World Business school rankings 2011 -McGill- 57th place-  LINK

The tuition fee increase has allowed McGill to 'catch up'' with the other elite Canadian business schools. The best, the University of Toronto's Rotman School of Management ranks 46th in the world and charges $80,000 to Canadians for its two year program and $99,000  to foreigners. TUITION LINK

Is paying all that money worth it?..... You bet.
The average salary for graduates is over $100,000. Here's an interesting statistical view of the graduates of the U of T's, Rotman School of Business. LINK

I guess you get what you pay for.

Incidentally the Ivey School of Business at the University of Western Ontario, ranks 47th in the world, just after Rotman and charges $70,000 for a one year program! TUITION LINK

The Schulich School of Business at the York University  ranks 51th in the world and charges $25,000 each year for a  two year program! LINK

So who is out of touch with reality, McGill or the Quebec education department?

Quebec's rationale that accessibility is more important than quality, is a frightening scenario for McGill, a school dedicated to maintaining its position as an elite school, not only in Canada, but worldwide.

Can an elite school exist where the majority of its funding comes from a government dedicated to the lowest common denominator? It's a frightening question.

Quebec's determination that the most important aspect to higher education is cheap tuition fees is a bankrupt philosophy that reaps mediocre results.

The philosophy ha disturbing consequences. Quebec universities cannot offer elite programs  because the government can't pay for it and won't allow schools to charge for it.
Sounds disturbingly like medicare.

Elite MBA programs cost a lot to run.  The Quebec government's solution is to just not have them.

But since students graduating these programs enjoy astronomical lifetime earnings, it's reasonable for them to pay for their education, even if it means paying up to $100,000 for their education.
If the government is disturbed by the lack of equal access for poorer students, they can provide loans that can be easily paid off when students graduate to extremely high paying jobs.

By fining McGill, the government has sent the signal that it doesn't want these types of programs to be available. There can be no other conclusion, since asking students in other faculties to subsidize the MBA program makes no sense and is unfair to boot.

You'd think with Canada's cheapest tuition, Quebec would have the highest enrollment, but it isn't true, Quebec's francophones continue to value university education, lower than anglophones and allophones and those in the ROC.

One has to wonder if McGill is being punished because it is so good and whether the Education Department's attitude towards the school is a question of taking the school down a peg or two, so that francophone universities don't look so bad. Not a completely outrageous notion.

It's a dangerous concept, lowering standards.

Maybe the next step is to lower admission requirements at McGill to the frightening low standards applied in francophone schools.
Because of the shortage of French students, standards have sunk so low for francophone cegeps that it is actually not necessary to have graduated high school to get in!

How's it been working out? .... Not so good.  
55% of them abandon school within their first year. LINK{FR}

The real problem is how education is viewed between cultural communities.
Francophones just don't see university education as important as the rest of the country. The concept of elite students and elite programs runs counter to the egalitarian philosophy of the Quebec's education department.

If the government can't afford to pay for it , nobody can have it, even if they pay for it themselves!.....

Tragic!

All this is taking place under a supposedly federalist Quebec government.  One can only imagine what will happen if the PQ gets elected, loses a referendum and then  gets down to exacting a measure of revenge on the English community.
They've already targeted English cegeps and it's foolish to believe that Mr. Curzi et als. won't address the separatist obsession with the supposed over-funding of English universities.
It doesn't auger well, but pretending it can't happen is foolish.

The long-term viability of McGill as an elite school is certainly in question. 

I may be one of the first to say it, but McGill cannot survive as an elite university under Quebec's public model, even if the government remains Liberal. The lack of funding, the beggar's tuition schedule (even with the recent increases) is a recipe for mediocrity.

Perhaps it's time to develop a 'Plan B'
In order to maintain it's status and free itself from the destructive arm of the Quebec education department,, the school may have to become private.(gasp!)

It's a shocking conclusion, one that would see student fees triple or quadruple and would result in a drastic downsizing. 

But it is the only solution to maintaining its status as one of the world's best universities.

18 comments:

  1. Francophones are this, francophones are that... perhaps someone as frighteningly disconnected from what francophones truly are shouldn't be making assumptions. If someone in the french press had used the same turn of phrase (Anglos are this, Jews are that...) you'd be the first to call them bigots.

    Your article never answered a key question: what does that obscene tuition actually buy? What do students get for 10x the money? My huess is, prestige. An MBA type would be the first to brag that his 100,000$ MBA is better that your puny 10,000% one.

    "Quebec's francophones continue to value university education, lower than anglophones and allophones and those in the ROC"

    Anyone with half a brain would realize that this is because before the 60's the vast majority of francophones did not have access to higher education. In my family's 400 years here my generation (early 30's) is the first to have universal access to university. This is why the government set up the current system in the first place.

    But feel free to plug your ears and continue with the french-bashing...

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  2. Few comments.

    First, please do not believe the publications that say that MBA graduates earn 100k$ or more. That is not the average salary, that is median salary. And that is only those who report. I know for fact that there are plenty of unemployed MBAs; Desautels, Rotman, Schulich, Sauder, Ivey or others. Working for 60 - 75k is more the norm.

    Having said that, IMO not only Desautels Faculty of Management needs to set its own tuition fees, the whole university does. And I have said this for a long time, McGill needs to be independent. And with the socio-political landscape of Quebec, independence does mean privatization.

    There are two models of higher education, I think. The European model, which almost all universities are public and the American model, which private universities fluorish. If we see the trend lately, we see that more and more European universities go to the American model, at least for parts of their programs.

    What does it tell us? That education has become more of a commodity. And mind you, that commodity is traded globally. Meaning that the market for good education is truly a global market.

    Based on that, McGill needs to privatize itself. While there are programs that do not generate revenue, I am confident that the Faculties of Management, Medicine, Law and Engineering along with the Schools of Music and Computer Science are able to carry the weight. And with that, I disagree with the Editor that there will be significant downsizing. The downsize in the Faculty of Religious Studies will be quickly replaced by the expansion of the Faculty of Engineering.

    My only worry about privatization is the assets of Quebec government currently in the university. I am not sure that the privatization will go amicably. I suspect that the government will try to claim the majority of the University's assets, including the land and the buildings.

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  3. This would not be the first time McGill had to lower it's standards to become more "available" to French Canadians. I was very ashamed when the McGill Medical school bowed to government pressure to drop the MCAT requirement.

    This will only serve to lessen our business elite the way it has lessened our doctors.

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  4. Les universités n'ont pas à raisonner de cette façon. Comparer entre Oxford et Sorbonne, soyez plus vigilants dans vos comparaisons, au lieu de dénigrer les Québécois !

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  5. Hey Editor,

    I wrote a rather lengthy comment. Did it just go to a black hole?

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  6. Poor McGill: to please "les cousins de province", we have to lower standard and become some kébékuà funky university...
    "Comparer entre Oxford et Sorbonne"...Commentaire déconnecté de la realité : elles appartiennent à la mentalité europeénne, n'ayant rien à voir avec celle des cousins de province... Laisse ton bêchoir dans le champs, Étoile, et reviens parmi les hommes...

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  7. "Francophones are this, francophones are that... perhaps someone as frighteningly disconnected from what francophones truly are shouldn't be making assumptions."

    Have you read the Editor's past blog posts? He has stated that he has interacted with Francophones a great deal, across Quebec, over a long period of time. His assertions are based on statistics, which admittedly, he should have quoted in more detail.

    "If someone in the french press had used the same turn of phrase (Anglos are this, Jews are that...) you'd be the first to call them bigots."

    The French press and other French media use these phrases all the time, to the point where it has become expected and "normal" for them to do so.

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  8. @ Anglo Bashers

    "Have you read the Editor's past blog posts? He has stated that he has interacted with Francophones a great deal, across Quebec, over a long period of time"

    Well sir, I AM a francophone and I HAVE interacted and worked with tham and am married to one. I live in a francophone suburb and read francophone newspapers and listen to francophone news and radio. After reading a few articles here I think I can assure everybody here that the author paints a very different picture from what the reality is.

    "The French press and other French media use these phrases all the time, to the point where it has become expected and "normal" for them to do so."

    Care to point out any? And no, Vigile.net and the SSJB do not count as mainstream media. There are a few nuts here (hello Richard Martineau), but contrary to popular belief here, the Québec media is far less radical and polarized than the american media, for instance.

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  9. Plusieurs Européens sont attirés par McGill et mes confrères enseignent là aussi. Alors "relax" ! C'est vous qui n'êtes pas branché avec la réalité. L'argent n'est pas le centre de l'Intelligence, il est un moyen, ne l'oubliez pas. L'Université de Toronto par exemple semble extraordinaire, oui par son volume d'étudiants, non pour la qualité. Nos profs là-bas n'ont pas de contrats de longue durée. Plusieurs ne se renouvellent pas si les étudiants loupent leur cours.
    Alors ? comparez messieurs, comparez, et cogitez.

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  10. I'm an MBA, and frankly I think the tuition costs at Mc Gill are reasonable vs second or even third-tier US Business schools !

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  11. @anon 3:50,

    why don't you go through the older blog entries and look at the links provided. Quebecois media and politicians get away with more remarks then vice versa. If you chose to ignore the evidence then we can choose to ignore your views.

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  12. I am allowed to my opinion, I don't need your approuval. Stand back polisson.

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  13. Phil: Just because U.S. business schools are out of reach for the average joe means the same rule should apply in Canada?

    I personally believe this will perpetuate a permanent underclass. I'm thankful I went to Concordia before it became the disgrace it is today (Jew-hating Arabs who break windows at the thought of an Israeli Prime Minister coming to speak), and the B.S. going on in the ivory tower of the rector and other higher-ups at Concordia.

    At the same time, Quebec's philosophy of low tuition-low-quality is no good either.

    In fairness, nobody is obliged to apply to and obtain an MBA at McGill, or the U of T, Western, etc. Too, I think this thing about $100,000 + salaries is lofty as others have stated. I imagine at least 20% of graduates can't find a dishwashing job. How the hell are they supposed to pay for that with their exorbitant debt from their school loans?

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  14. Perceived scarcity, brand recognition, supply & demand, marketing, ivy league, exclusivity.

    You put it together.

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  15. McGill welcomes bilinguals, and allows papers to be submitted in FR even - Montreal local Jazz great MarieAnne Trudel is a product of McGill btw.

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  16. To Anonymous, March 23 at 3:50 PM:

    "Well sir, I AM a francophone and I HAVE interacted and worked with tham and am married to one. I live in a francophone suburb and read francophone newspapers and listen to francophone news and radio."

    This explains your pro-Francophone bias. You're defending your tribe unconditionally.

    -------------------------------------------------

    "If someone in the french press had used the same turn of phrase (Anglos are this, Jews are that...) you'd be the first to call them bigots."

    "The French press and other French media use these phrases all the time, to the point where it has become expected and "normal" for them to do so."

    "Care to point out any?"

    There are two blatant examples on Mario Dumont's television show which the Editor pointed out. See his posts about Gilles Proulx on Nov. 19, 2010 and Martin Pelletier on Jan. 5, 2011.

    Gilles Proulx referred to Anglophones as "tetes carres" repeatedly and there was no backlash. Can you imagine the uproar if someone on English TV called Francophones "pepsis", "peppers", or "frogs?" The House of Commons on Parliament Hill would probably pass motions denouncing it.

    Martin Pelletier complained that there were too many Anglos in Laval and suggested fines for speaking English. If someone said the same thing about Francophones in Ottawa the sh*t would really hit the fan.

    There is definitely a double standard here.

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  17. All this make me laugh. If someone is stupid enough to pay that much for a degree, well, they deserved to go at Mcgill. And no, Mcgill is not among the top universities. Not anymore. Fact that its located in Quebec province has a lot to do with that. Of course.

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  18. FROM ED
    One thing I learned about education. You don't necessarily need a high diploma to earn in life, it's what you put into whatever you do. I left high school in my second year because my family was in need. I worked in banking and ship repair, youth education and finally long distance trucking. By the time I was fourty I had a beautiful duplex in LaSalle all paid for, a brand new car a second car and my three children were set for university funding. In the seventies I was making $700.00 per week when others were making $180.00. If you are industrious and don't expect to get rich overnight you can do it with whatever you have in you. Ed

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