By now, even the staunchest defenders of Quebec and the famous Quebec 'model' must
reluctantly admit that the province really is a cesspool of public corruption and
malfeasance.Those who came down on Maclean's magazine for its article describing Quebec as; Canada's most corrupt province owe the magazine an apology for casting aspersions on the integrity and the validity of its reporting.
There are many editorialists who leapt to Quebec's defence, including Carole Beaulieu, the editor of L'acualité, Maclean's sister magazine. Then there is the then Quebec cabinet minister Nathalie Normandeau (herself later accused of a conflict of interest) and a current Quebec cabinet minister Jean-François Lisée, who all accused the magazine of bad faith and Quebec-bashing. The list goes on and on.
It isn't often that a journalist, an editorialist, a newspaper or radio station apologizes for getting the facts wrong or for offering the public an opinion or analysis that is completely wrong, especially when the cold hard facts bear out the error..
The long list of Quebec apologists isn't even restricted to the French media, the Montreal Gazette also piled on, calling the Maclean's article "gratuitously offensive."
In light of current events it isn't surprising that the Gazette has removed that editorial from its own website. When you are in the news and opinion business, getting it so wrong is a humiliating embarrassment.
Fortunately for us, it's not easy to bury errors, especially on the web.
Although the Gazette website has been sanitized, the editorial can be read Here
"Could it be true? Did Maclean's prove its case? Or is the article just another in a long line of gratuitously offensive sorties against the one province that dares to insist on having its own identity, complete with European style state interference in the economy?Ha! could they get it more wrong?
If it were true, Quebec would have to change. There would have to be new rules for tendering and for making political appointments, including judgeships. More inspectors would have to be hired for road-building and other public works contracts. More police would be needed to investigate the slightest whiff of corruption at all levels of government.
But Maclean's is wrong. It didn't come close to making its case. The haste with which the magazine slid past the shortcomings of other provinces, while lingering on 80-year-old scandals out of Quebec, was remarkable"
But of all those who attacked Maclean's, one organization merits a special shaming, the not-so-impartial QUEBEC PRESS COUNCIL, for this jewel.
"Maclean's magazine has been reprimanded by the Quebec Press Council for a controversial cover last year that called Quebec the most corrupt province in Canada.Our precious Quebec press and its
Besides the headline, the publication triggered widespread outrage in the province by running a front-page photo of the beloved Bonhomme Carnaval snowman clutching a briefcase stuffed with cash.
In a March 18 decision that was made public Tuesday, the seven-member watchdog unanimously blamed the publication for the headline and "a lack of journalistic rigour." Link
If anything, the problem of corruption and crime in Quebec's public administration has gone beyond the pale, a bacchanalian orgy of greed and selfishness that transcends practically every public agency or organization that spends public money in Quebec.
If there is one thing that Maclean's got wrong, it is only in the fact that it understated the level of corruption that permeates the province.
For all those who attacked Maclean's it would be nice to hear an apology, but you know as well as I, it will never happen.
Even to a skeptic like me, the scale and the breadth of criminality is hard to digest.
For John Q. Public, it is understandable that the Maclean's article seemed too fantastic to believe. For the average Joe or Jane, punching a card, getting his or her taxes deducted at source, there isn't much room for corruption.
Not many of us would be so foolhardy to offer a cop a fifty to get out of a speeding ticket, or a ten to a meter maid/man to overlook a parking transgression. It isn't part of our DNA and at any rate, regardless of where you live in Canada, would you really expect a public servant to take the bribe?
At any rate for those living outside Quebec and those who haven't followed the story closely, if you have any doubts about the veracity of the Maclean's story detailing Quebec as the most corrupt province, let me give you a little review of events since the story broke.
It seems that entire civil administration of the City of Montreal has been shown to be nothing short of a kleptocracy. The mayor, Gerald Tremblay, has been forced to resign under pressure, claiming himself a victim, unable to combat the entrenched and powerful forces of corruption.
A once deputy mayor, Frank Zampino stands indicted for corruption and the highest ranking members of the city's civil administration have admitted to taking hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes in exchange for approving inflated construction bills from crooked companies who kicked back a percentage of the over-billing to the Mafia and also allegedly to municipal political parties.
The independent consulting-engineering firms, charged with overseeing these construction projects on behalf of the city, some of them powerhouses, are accused of organizing the various scams as well as feeding money back to political parties.
Police have raided the offices of just about all these firms that had dealings with public contracts, some of these firms, publicly traded. Link
Laval, the third largest city in Quebec is practically under trusteeship after the mayor resigned under allegations of fraud. It is rumoured that when police opened his bank safe deposit box, over one hundred thousand dollars in cash was found. Two politicians have come forward swearing that the mayor offered them an envelope stuffed with cash as illegal campaign contributions.
In Quebec City, where we would have expected these shenanigans to be absent, a city employee was quietly let go in the face of corruption allegations. Link{fr}
The mayor of Mascouche, Richard Marcotte has already been indicted for corruption but refuses to vacate his post, much to the chagrin of citizens who want to lynch him. Link
At least a half a dozen towns and cities that we know of are under investigation for serious cases of corruption.
A chief fund-raiser of the Liberal party, Pierre Bibeau, is accused of accepting a giant illegal cash donation. Link
Now there is an allegation that senior members of Loto-Quebec abused their positions, an allegation made by a fired employee in a court case where he is fighting his own dismissal based on corruption. Link
And just yesterday, McGill University sued its old dean, Arthur Porter for allegedly absconding with over $300,000 that the belonged to the school. Link
That isn't the half of it, Porter is being investigated in relation to millions of dollars in alleged under the table payoffs that he is alleged to have received from SNC-Lavalin (Canada's most important engineering-consulting firm) which won the contract to build the billion dollar mega-hospital in Montreal. Link
The Université de Montréal is under investigation as well, with the province's anti-corruption unit UPAC, looking into a real estate transaction where the university sold a building at quite a loss to a real estate mogul, Frank Catania, already under indictment for another alleged fraud involving the city of Montreal, which is said to have sold him land that was valuated at $31 million for about $4.4 million. Link{Fr}
Let's not forget the construction kingpin, Tony Accurso, twice indicted for a bunch of alleged frauds, including cheating the tax man, a charge in which his company has already pled out. Link
As they say in the music business, the hits just keep coming!
Remember, all this started when the Charest government was accused of 'selling' judgeships by his own ex-justice minister. While the charges were never proven, what was evident was that in telling diametrically opposed versions of a meeting, either the Premier, Jean Charest, or ex-Justice Minister
Marc Bellemare, was a liar.
Not exactly a confidence builder for citizens in government ethics.
While none of this has been proved so far, some of the characters involved have in fact confirmed that they were indeed on the take.
Quebec's special task force investigating corruption is hard-pressed to keep up.
It reminds me of a story told to me by the president of a large Quebec retail chain of music stores.
It seems that he hired a mystery shopper outfit on a trial basis to test the integrity of his employees.
Agents would try to offer cash to employees to circumvent the register. After just one visit, the agents phoned the boss and told him that they caught a manager stealing.
Shocked, the boss sent a supervisor to take control of the store. The same afternoon the agents called again with the same story in a different location.
The boss sent his vice-president down to the location and when the agents phoned again that evening, he told them to stop the visits, he had no one left to spare!!
And so Quebec is fast becoming the laughingstock and the butt of corruption jokes not only in Canada but around the world;
New York Times - Mayor of Montreal Resigns as Corruption Investigation Heats Up
Washington Post- Laval mayor becomes second Quebec mayor to resign amid corruption inquiry
Miami Herald- Corruption probe shakes Montreal, topples mayor
The Economist - Corruption in Quebec
Le Monde - Mafia sicilienne et corruption gangrènent le Québec
It will be years until the mess will be cleaned up and it will have cost taxpayers billions.
Here's a good story on how Quebec should go about cleaning up its mess, taking an example of how its done in New York city. Link
In the meantime, all this talk of corruption has stolen media attention from what has become, in three short months, the most incompetent government ever to achieve power in Quebec.
In the National Assembly the furious ex-health minister Yves Bolduc was reprimanded by the speaker for calling the current health minister a clueless incompetent.
The outburst was sparked by the announcement by the current PQ Health Minister, Réjean Hébert, that the PQ will be freezing capital spending in the health-care field because of other PQ priorities, like increasing the number of $7 a day places in public daycare. Link{fr}
Perhaps we need Maclean's to do another article exposing the utter depravity and incompetence of the current PQ government and before the Montreal Gazette and friends calls such an article Quebec-bashing, perhaps they should check their facts.
by MR
ReplyDeleteGod help us all!
Editor, this makes my day for no other reason than it proves MacLean's was correct, and while the French media and the apologist Gazette will never officially apologize to MacLean's, there is no doubt they'll suffer dire indigestion eating their own words for this.
ReplyDeleteIt's good to see the international press circuit because this is what it takes for Quebec to react. I'd like to think, at last, the government has been amply embarrassed into reacting.
If the PQ budget is to be brought down next week, and it will be as loony as one can expect if infrastructure will give way to more cheap daycare spaces and rolled back tuition fees, actions that won't benefit the economy, bringing the PQ down on a non-confidence motion, while a costly proposition, will likely outweigh the costs of implementing the budget proposals, if the mystery unfolds the way you think it will.
All I hope is in 2014 when the equalization formula is to be revisited by the feds, the payments to Quebec will be severely cut, or better still, eliminated. The question at this time is whether Harper will have the balls to do it. He should as Quebec has never been very yielding to the Conservatives. Too, Ontario can't afford to be the supporter it has been in the past as its economy is currently on the ropes, and will be further challenged if America goes over the fiscal cliff.
Editor,
ReplyDeleteCan you create an article hall of fame? This one deserves induction.
I agree. It's a great one.
DeleteGold!
DeleteCorruption in Kebec is endemic and will not cease because the Kebecois will die before facing the truth. It us not just Mayor Tremblay of Montreal who is corrupt, it is the whole system of CHANTAGE, the very roots of Kebec.
ReplyDeleteA very sad – and embarrassing - state of affairs. I no longer live in Quebec, but my family and friends do; they are not happy about any of this. Yes, it will take years and a lot of money to clean all this up...money and time that can be used in better, more important ways.
ReplyDeleteI love it.
ReplyDeleteQuebec is now being forced into facing a new direction for it's future.
Yes...
Corruption is everywhere - but at a time when Ottawa balanced 8 budgets in a row...Quebec
was running on the fumes of a deficit.
And now separatists have NO ONE to blame but themsleves.
Point the finger wherever you like, but the unions played the seps like total puppets and used
them to get filthy stinking rich.
It's the easiest scam to run in the world.
Whenever the union heads and PQ leaders get close to losing their filthy lucre they call on the YLs, S.Rs, Michel Patrices and
apply to their amygdalas in order to mine the basest, most simplistic of emotions - and strike gold each time.
Of course, those three suspects will swear up-and-down that they can think for themselves...
But they've long since run out of arguments.
Now all of Quebec, both the sep and fed camps, are facing a new revolution...and this one sure ain't quiet.
If it's not corruption, then it's entitlements, which are another crippling detriment to Quebec's forward momentum.
Example:
http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/dossiers/conflit-etudiant/201211/07/01-4591394-lasse-brandit-la-menace-de-nouvelles-manifestations.php
Of course, the sep side believes that paying for one's education is some kind of "Anglo-Capitalist conspiracy"...
...yet they never quite take the time to tally up the cost of the grocery list.
PLUS
La Marois just announced more welfare-daycare...at the cost of $260M+ per year to the tax payer.
At the summit for la francophonie, Marois pledge financial aid to African countries, but the catch is...we
don't have any damn money!
Quebec must now face the crossroads of change by deciding what kind of society it wants to become...
...or the society it wants to remain.
Well said, RE. It is a delicious irony, isn't it? The magazine cover especially. Hah!
DeleteYes, amazing how it coincidentally emulates the MacLean's magazine cover with all those angry bonhommes. I wonder where the cover artist got THAT idea? «Nudge-nudge-wink-wink!»
Delete@ Editor,
DeleteYou outdid yourself!
@ RE, Foremost and Mr. Sauga,
Thank you for your posts, enjoyed reading them.
What really gets me is that, when you watch these miscreants at the Charbonneau Commission, they really seem to think they've done nothing wrong! No ethics, no sense of responsibility, no shame, they just sit unapologetic and talk as if they accepted it as a way of life and a sense of entitlement. Imagine, the engineer went to the casino to play slots so he could turn the money back to the government - lol. What a hardship that must have been - and I know people who play the slots because they LIKE it - imagine. Most can't afford it but damn they play anyway and this poor guy had to. Misguided, unethical, citizens of our great province!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lactualite.com/societe/carole-beaulieu/macleans-et-la-ponctuation
DeleteBut the comments on the lousy article by this unknown C. Beaulieu are even better ("We must separate...", "If we were a Nation...", "We carry on being berated...", "But NOUS, NOUS, NOUS..."). Atrocious piece of low-brow journalism mixed with inferiority complex, emotional drivels and eternal failure.
The more I unfortunately interact with quebekuà, the more I realize they want to strive for failure. Basically, death by mediocrity and by their own choice.
WA: Better them than us, the RoC. Harper would be a fool to continue equalization after 2014. Since its inception about 55 years ago or so, Quebec has taken half that money to the tune of over a ¼ trillion dollars.
DeleteI'm perfectly at ease with this measure. Why not? It will take the burden off an economically plagued Ontario, and help alleviate some of the ill feelings towards the eastern provinces in Alberta; furthermore, it will take $10 billion, probably more, off the deficit without any additional effort on the part of the federal government. Of course, I'm not suggesting the deficit shouldn't be attacked any further than that, far from that, but just that one change in fiscal policy would go a long way to help the Canadian taxpayers who are satisfied, even more grateful to be Canadian, a win-win situation for the real Canadians, a loser for the people who constantly bite the hand that feeds them.
Too true Mr. Sauga -Unfortunately for we federalists here in this stinking province, you're right.
DeleteUnrelated, but Trudeau supports decriminalisation of marijuana, and eventual legalisation and governmental regulation. Hurrah!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theguardian.pe.ca/News/Local/2012-11-13/article-3119682/Trudeau-supports-decriminalization-of-marijuana/1
Decriminalization took place under the Crétien administration. Déjà fait! The next step would be legalization. I'm actually for the illegalization of tobacco, but of course that would take an astronomical amount of undoing. Smoking period is a liability to one's health. Sadly, elimination of tobacco likely will never happen.
DeleteTry not to laugh when you read this but...
ReplyDeleteVIVE LE QUEBEC LIBRE!!!!!!
LOL!!!
Yes, that's the solution to all problems in Quebec: Independence, Joual and Bill 101. This will solve all problems and will grant Quebec a permanent seat at the ONU, with a forthcoming Nobel Prize for all those who fight for its sovereignty plus a yearly premium for discouraging the use of English. Oh, I forgot: the UNESCO will declare Quebec "protected Nation with special rights and privileges" and the Pope himself will take up his residence in it.
DeleteI think the Brüder Grimm couldn't have written such a story in a more detailed way.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteToo Late !! Too Funny!!
DeleteExportation de pétrole brut: Québec veut bloquer l'industrie albertaine
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/politique-quebecoise/201211/14/01-4593732-exportation-de-petrole-brut-quebec-veut-bloquer-lindustrie-albertaine.php
Haha!
As in "Haha, we're going to stay poor and our 'nation' will continue to go nowhere?"
DeleteIs that the "haha!" you're alluding to?
I think S.R has just proven that the Separatist movement is terminally addicted to debt and staying a minimum of 10 years behind the ROC and the U.S.
And people sometimes wonder why I want members of the separatist movement to be charged with conspiracy against economic progress and undermining what the people of Quebec are due.
Remember when that Shell refinery was being closed down in Montreal East how even the PQ wanted to keep it open. Getting the CHEAPER Albertan oil to the refineries east is the only way that can keep the refineries, petro chemical plants and related industries to expand or at least keep running. Already there are refineries that will have access to the oil from Western Canada in Sarnia, Ontario and in Wendover (south of Hamilton).
DeleteIF the cheap oil cannot come to the Petro Canada refinery in Montreal and the Ultramar Quebec City(I think its in Levis). Then might as well move the refineries out of Quebec. Besides once the oil starts flowing to Sarnia and Wendover, it can be shipped by train easily to the refineries in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Imagine the PQs face if 2 refineries are moved to Cornwall or Hawkesbury. The refinery jobs probably have good pay and/or benefits. We would see who would be doing the "HAHA" in that case.
The opposition should jump on this one. Just talk about how Marois is keeping gas prices expensive by opposing the Albertan oil.
Jarry Street,
DeleteAre you familiar with the energy trade? I do not, and I need to ask you questions.
Distance wise, Alberta is the closest source of crude from Quebec. If Quebec decides to ban Alberta oil, from where will it get the replacement? U.S. Gulf of Mexico? Alaska? Venezuela? North Sea? Middle East? From supply chain point of view, transporting crude from those locations to Quebec certainly is pricier than that from Alberta.
So the main question is, is it economically viable to import crude for other places to sustain Quebec's own need? Additionally, will it be cheaper if Quebec just close the refineries and import final hydrocarbon products?
Hi Troy,
Deletehttp://www.mrn.gouv.qc.ca/energie/statistiques/statistiques-import-export-petrole.jsp
In 2010, only 12% of Québec's importation of crude came from the rest of Canada. 40% from Africa and 20% from the Northen Sea. It might seem strange but I think that it is because, despite the longer route, it is easier to transport oil by sea. And Alberta despite being closer to Québec is surrounded by land.
You know, geography...
Troy,
DeleteThe oil coming from across the Ocean is priced in Brent Crude which recently goes between 105-112 dollars (US) a barrel vs West Texas Intermediate which is in the recent range of 84 to 88 dollars (US). So the Refineries out east including those in Quebec have been paying 21 to 24 dollars more a barrel for oil. That difference in price is causing the refineries that are getting oil from Western Canada and US to make better margins and can afford to sell their Refined products cheaper.
Irving Oil which has their refinery in St John New Brunswick, which also is the biggest in Canada in terms of production capacity. Since oil from out North America is priced in WTI
they are shipping in oil by train to cut down on the extra they pay for imported oil.
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/09/20/canadian-oil-discounts-narrow-as-trains-oust-pipes/
IF Quebec opposes and doesn't allow oil pipeline reversal to bring in Albertan oil then all the oil companies have to do is close down their refineries in Quebec and then just bring in refined products by ship and rail. Also like Alberta needs oil pipelines, Quebec would need high transmission line corridors in the United States and parts of Canada if they plan to increase electricity production and export it. Alberta can retaliate by lobbying against such corridors.
Here is a link to a map about the plan phases and locations for reversal of Enbridge line 9 from Sarnia and Wendover to Montreal.
Deletehttp://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/maps/2012/11/08/new2_map_oilsand_pipelines-300.jpg
I remember in the 1970s when we had our first two energy crises ('73 and '79), most oil in Eastern Canada came from Venezuela and the Middle East. It was cheaper to ship it in as opposed to railing it in from the West. I've been out of the loop since that time, so I don't know from where it's coming now. I assume the same places.
DeleteEast End Montreal already lost the Shell refinery, mostly due to endless labour strife. Same for well-paying Electrolux jobs in l'Assomption.
If Quebec is starting to refuse sources of oil, they're looking for trouble as other refineries will get the jobs. Why look for trouble? I guess because Kaybec knows how!
"well-paying Electrolux jobs in l'Assomption"
DeleteLes salaires chez Electrolux avoisinaient les 19 $ l'heure. On ne peut pas appeler cela un travail bien payé, sauf si l'on fait 12 $ l'heure...
19 dollars an hour is great pay. Especially for assembly and entry level manufacturing. 19 dollars outside Montreal in a smaller suburb can give you a good middle class lifestyle. How many of those entry level workers ended up becoming supervisors, and other skilled labour after working there for years? They definately would have been making a little more then the average. Even 12 dollars an hour is decent outside the bigger cities where rent and cost of living is cheaper. Right now we are lucky that even minimum wage jobs are available. WE might already be in the beginning of what is recession, when that happens people will be competing to even get the MCjobs.
DeleteI usually ignore YL but I really wonder if he really believes 19 dollars an hour is not a good pay. Also those refinery jobs all pay over 20 dollars for entry level jobs. Do you really want all those refineries that are left to close? While I can't say that the Petro Canada (now known as suncor) in Montreal east is mostly staffed by mostly Pur Laine Quebecois, I am pretty sure the refinery in Levis is over 90% pur laine quebecois. Do you support Marois putting those refineries in jeapordy?
I have lived in Montreal about 12 years and over the years I have realized just how corrupt and dishonest many people are. I often wonder why so many of you here havent left by now..seriously. I am considering it..do you really believe things can change in Quebec after all the recent stories and the decades and decades of corruption at all levels??
ReplyDeleteThe corruption runs deep to the core of many Quebecers..its a way of life. I suspect its because so many of them are unemployable in the private sector hence their only hope of a decent life is working for the government and then milking the system for all its worth. Keep the masses unilingual so they cant leave and they become stuck here and given the dim prospects of work in the private sector then you have to employ them in the government. I dont see this changing until Quebec is in default..either way why would any of us want to live here anymore?? I cant see things getting better until they get a lot worse..we have had a relatively strong economy over the past 12 years..wait until the unemployment rate starts moving up..and interest rates move up..and the real estate sector implodes..people will be really angry then and will be looking to blame soneone.
I know most of your have lived your whole lives here but I dont see a winnable fight..at best we will have indifference to the anglos..and a continue decline in the economy..at worst an economic crisis like in europe and where the anglos will be blamed for all problems.
People lie and cheat here because its part of the culture..thats the way people are raised here. Its in their nature..that is not going to go away by changing faces..we will end up with more of the same. I dont see Denis Coderre as being any different in the end..I dont see anyone out there that looks promising.
Largely agreed, Complicated.
DeleteDo I believe things can change? I'll admit, I'm largely skeptical. I mean you have idiots like S.R
who actually think it's funny and automatically right to say, block oil projects because they're completely
ignorant to the provincial-federal-global economic structure and the laws of cause-and-effect.
But I do also believe part of Quebec is beginning to wake up and realize that the separatists are nothing
more than lethal dead weight.
The seps supported the student strike - the tax paying majority of QC did not.
They're starting to realize that it will take fundamental change to gain the same windfalls as their North American cousins.
Well obviously most people on this blog think things can change but I am having serious doubts. One of the few hopes I have is that perhaps all this corruption news will bring in new very rigid regulations that will make it very hard for future politicians to fall into the same trap. However as I noted before..its so ingrained in Quebec society that even new regulations will likely not be enough. It seems that we need to become Greece first before things will change which is very sad but likely true.
DeleteThats why the only slim hope I had in the last election was the CAQ. My hope was that they are sincere and that they would do a menage..and focus on the real issues..forgetting about language issues for at least 10 years. But there is little hope of them getting elected as the anglos only vote Liberal and there is still a large seperatist contingent elsewhere in Quebec. Hence Libs or PQ means more of the same..I dont care what leader the Liberals choose..it wont matter. It will mean more economic weakness..more debt and higher taxes..we are running out of time..we cant do this for another 5 years..the jig is up..interest rates will start going higher in 2 years..the real estate market is already on its way down..the economy will follow..we dont have any more wiggle room.
The student strike was another nail in the coffin..its absurd that this relatively small group more or less got exactly what it wants even though most Quebecers clearly supported parties who wanted a tuition fee hike!!! We have the highest debt and taxes and the only issue that mobilizes thousands of people on the streets are the students fighting for next to nothing..we live in bizarro land run by wackos..and all of us that continue to live here must enjoy being abused..seriously..
Things can change. It just takes a small spark. I for one believe that only if Quebec is split in 2. One new bilingual province with the minority dominated areas of Quebec and possibly the Francophone dominated areas of Ontario. Quebec would become one almost completely Pur Laine province that would still have more then 6 million people and be Canada's 2nd more populous province. Plus they would still keep 75 members of Parliament, despite loosing more then 1.75 of their original population. They would keep their Hydro even if they no longer had the native areas of Northern Quebec due to the James Bay Agreement. While the new province would boom being unshackled by bill 101. Of course debt transfer etc can be negotiated.
DeleteI think if local governments where such an idea was popular and started their own referendums, the movement cannot be ignored.
It seems that most people on this forum are hoping/praying that partition will happen. I think its highly unlikely and somewhat naive. If this is what is keeping this blog going then god help us..really. As I have stated before..partition is at best decades away..and in the meantime would cause an even higher escalation of tensions within this province..more restrictions against anglophones..more political uncertainty hence more economic weakeness and higher debt and eventually a Greece like default. Partition only works if the francophones agree to it..they will never agree to this idea.
DeleteIt amazes me that so many people here actually believe they can sell this idea to the francophones. Do you truly honestly believe that francophones will give up the largest city in Quebec..the economic centre..the cultural centre. The notion is astonishing..just float the idea around and see the response.
Its a wonderful fantastical idea for anglophones..we would have control and not have to move as it would encompass essentially the zone where we all live. But what happens to all the francophones within this new entity..do you really think they will want this..some will but many wont. Its a very naive foolish idea which has about zero chance of happening..if this is all you people can hope for then you might as well just leave now.
Complicated.Get off my Québécois back in your comment you said "its so ingrained in Quebec society"google http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_political_scandals.
DeleteI would like to remind you that 5,000,000(app)eligible voters,1,393,703 voted for the PQ that is 72% of Québécois did not vote for the PQ
Not allowing children (male & female) to receive an equitable education(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education) in Quebec, can one call this a version of the “Quebec Taliban”
Combien avaient voté pour charessst?
Deletewhite african - since when is a french education not equitable?? It seems that you are somewhat biased in your views..your children are getting a decent education but perhaps it not in the language of your convenience. Did you not realize this before immigranting here from Africa? There are 9 other provinces which clearly would have educated your children in english..why choose the one that doesnt? I find it somewhat bold for a white african to complain about inequality when one considers what has gone on in Africa over the past 200 years or so?
DeleteI don't know Jarry - the ROC has had enough and come next transfer payment time, the lid will probably blow off this pot. The one spark you talk about may be that they will want to kick this whole province to the curb. Everyone in the world is well aware of the depth of the corruption and socialist (communist) lifestyle of these separatists and because, to top it all off, they are totally uncooperative with the ROC, this could be our death keel. They are already very fed up and each day of the commission inquiry brings us closer to the brink of disaster. If I personally see one more comment on how "fragile" the french language is, I'm going to puke. I'm so sick of all of it and I'm sure everyone else in this country is also. And complicated, your comments are right on the mark and I too have a hard time seeing a way out of this mess. A Greece scenario in the very near future is perhaps what Quebec needs to shape up. Come-on lottery!
ReplyDeleteI think Greece is the logical outcome. I have many friends outside of Quebec..especially out west and they are just fuming at Quebec. They are fed up and many have said they would kick Quebec out..the love from the ROC is pretty much gone. They are sick and tired of sending billions into Quebec then hearing about 7 dollar a day daycare..and cheap tuition and all the chronic mismanagement of this money. I dont blame them..I really dont. There might be a movement eventually of Canadians who want to ask Quebec to leave.
DeleteWhy does Canada need Quebec..its one of the poorest province in the country..it insults Canada on a regular basis..it it totally out of sync with most Canadians on most issues. Thats why we cant expect Canada to rescue us. Quebec has proven over and over that it is totally corrupt and dishonest..incapable of managing itself..its a cesspool of many of the worst things in humanity. Its largely become this way because it has used its seperation threats for decades to extort more and more money out of Canada which it then totally wasted..we created a monster really and its out of control now. Most Quebecers just shrug their shoulders at all the corruption..where are the protests on the streets..its bloody outrageous what has been going on and you cant get 100 people on the street to protest. But the spoiled brat students can get 100,000 people to whine about paying the lowest tuition fees in Canada..as I said we live in wacko land where up is down and down is up.
And our friend SR is the typical inbred Quebecer who just sits there and laughs collecting his welfare cheque, thumbing his finger at les maudits anglias who of course are to blame for everything. Even if I stand to lose by staying here via property values I do look forward to the day when this province has to stand on its OWN two feet. We will see how wonderful a time it will be when the money is gone..
As incredibly depressing as that is, complicated, I agree almost entirely.
DeleteUne chance que ce blogue ne représente pas notre communauté anglophone : La majorité de nos anglos sont de bons anglos qui savent tenir leur rang.
ReplyDeleteSurtout depuis le 5 septembre. C'est audible. Depuis cette date les anglos se font en général plus discrets dans l'espace public. Qu'est-ce que ça sera lorsque le Québec sera un pays!?
DeleteEn attendant, il s'agit juste de continuer le travail de dressage amorcé dans les années soixante.
There will be no "country":
Deletehttp://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/national/201211/14/01-4593824-sondage-la-souverainete-nest-pas-demandee.php
Clown Resident, ce qui compte ce n'est pas l'appui conjoncturel à la souveraineté, c'est de s'identifier comme Québécois ou Canadien lorsque la question référendaire est posée suite à un débat.
DeleteEn 1980, 37% des francophones se disaient Québécois. Le reste se disaient Canadien ou Canadien français. Résultat du référendum 40% Oui, 60% Non.
En 1995, 60% des francophones se disaient Québécois. Le reste se disaient Canadien ou Canadien français. Résultat du référendum : 60% des francos ont voté Oui. Pour un résultat global de 50%.
En 2012, 69% des francophones se disent Québécois. Donc logiquement le résultat d'un référendum tenu cette année donnerait 69% des francos moins les 90% d'anglos et d'immigrants = 59%.
Ce n'est pas moi qui le dit, c'est Jean-François Lisée :
http://www2.lactualite.com/jean-francois-lisee/identite-et-estime-de-soi-piliers-d’une-future-majorite-souverainiste/3420/
Ahhhh, I see, so if Jean-François Lisée makes a statement it's the "ultimate truth".
DeleteI feel sorry for you little YL...you truly are a sad, misguided little soul to think that self-indulgent opportunists like Lisée actually give a damn what you think or feel.
So now we should be "discreet" in public! You a------- I will shout in English anywhere and everywhere I want - The day I can't speak my language in public is the day I buy a gun. You people are really, really sick and should have your heads examined. Who the hell do you think you are? Mr. Lisee bullshit - Who do you think cares what he says or thinks? You people seem to think that people from all over the world pay attention to your minute problems = Outside of his negative little office in Quebec City no one has heard of the idiot. People living outside this province have REAL problems to deal with in their lives and they do it without a thought of this province in their heads.
DeleteY.L,
DeleteIf that is the case, and if it is true, now that the PQ has the government - and Lisee is one big part of it - why do they not just go ahead with a referendum? Why the hesitation?
Depuis cette date les anglos se font en général plus discrets dans l'espace public. Qu'est-ce que ça sera lorsque le Québec sera un pays!?
Deletethis Anglo/Allo will not be sitting in the shadows, so FU.....
"I will shout in English anywhere and everywhere I want..."
DeleteEn outaouais peut-être mais faites tout de même attention si vous allez à Montréal.
Yeah, what L-o-T said !!
DeleteGuys, it's no use getting worked up about S.R and Y.L. We all know they are part of the same donkey, it's just hard to tell which is the head and which is the tail !!LOLOLOLOL
"There will be no "country""
DeleteLa Presse a déjà afirmé que le NPD ne serait jamais populaire au Québec...
En 2012, 69% des francophones se disent Québécois. Donc logiquement le résultat d'un référendum tenu cette année donnerait 69% des francos moins les 90% d'anglos et d'immigrants = 59%.
DeleteTo paraphrase Megyn Kelly...
Is this math you do as a separatist to make yourself feel better?
FROM ED BROWN
ReplyDeleteOne thing we must do is separate the French from the English. I was just researching info on the quiet revolution changes made to the education department. They all refer to the Catholic church controlling the schools. The church controlled french schools. The English Protestant school board was there before I first went to school in 1942. My grandfather sold school bonds to build new schools. Today when we speak of education we must make it clear that French educ. is in trouble not ours. We need to do this in business, social and every way to show normal thinking francophones that we don't need them or their government. We're doing just fine. For God's sake don't listen to whiners like COMPLICATED. We English are doing fine, probably as well as any Canadian in other provinces. The whiners compare us to Greece a country whose men have become to lazy to work. Most Francos have jobs and work hard at them. We must show them what they can attain by work and honesty.
In the meantime stop demeaning our Province because you are putting all of us down with it. You make people feel like they are living in a sewer. These are our homes so stop suggesting we should leave, if you want to go, GO. The bad news of the PQ is spreading north america wide. Give it until the spring when we should see a difference. We have survived the depression, two World Wars and Afganistan. We can overcome the corruption scandal which , if no one is brought to justice will at least stop the practices. We have freedom, medicare and Mulroney's parting gift the GST. Aint we
Lucky. Ed
Hey ED its 2012 not 1958..honestly you sound like you are stuck in some sort of time warp. Who is working hard in this province..not too many people. I see pathetic work ethics all over the place..I can tell you that people in general worked a hell of a lot harder out west than they do here. A large part of it is that SO many people work for the government or government entities or have powerful unions protecting them.
ReplyDeleteHow about basic mathematics ED..do you know how to add? Quebec has by FAR the worse debt situation..we owe 250 billion dollars with only 8 million people and we pay the highest taxes in North America. And this is during a period where interest rates have NEVER been this low. If you understand basic math this is a HUGE problem. If you think I am exaggerating about Greece then just look at the numbers..Quebec was ranked 5th in the world after such countries like Greece in terms of debt. We have lazy a** government workers mostly pur laine sitting on their butts all day thumbing their fingers at les anglais..old time anglos like you who still think its the 1950s and who offer no real solutions to the REAL problems other than anecdotes from the stone age..idiot life time welfare bums like SR who sit around smoking weed all day. No all is just fine in la belle province ED..no problems here..we are all working hard..
@ Ed, I agree with Complicated. Enough with the rose covered shades, pull them off please, cause it's bloody dire out here! Perhaps we rag to no end on this blog, but at least we're honest about how things are and how we all...really feel. Don't dump on that, cause it's actually valuable.
DeleteI have a very good francophone friend that told me the difference between quebecers and the ROC is that quebecers work to live and the ROC live to work. Perhaps some truth in that?
ReplyDeleteFROM ED BROWN
ReplyDeleteComplicated, Thank fully you weren't around during the WWII. They would have shot you for collaboration.
Your tirades are enough to discourage the hell out of anyone with a little courage to carry on. We all know how bad things are. Why do you keep ramming it down our throats? Are you trying to drive people to suicide? When Jane Fonda went to Vietnam and told the American soldiers they were fighting an impossible war a whole rash of suicides ensued among the troops. When people have their backs to the wall, why would you want to increase their suffering. For God's sake man have you no consideration.
By the way, enough of this 1950's bullshit. Stop using my age to try to make me look out of it.
I am in the thick of the battle, working with people trying to help people. Ed
Today on the MSNBC program Chris Matthews mentioned the "money and the ethnic vote" comment by Parizeau when making a negative comment about something Paul Ryan said. If anglos got got together and supplied the US media with the facts about the fascism in Quebec, the Apartheid mentality of the PQ and the actions and attitudes of the separatists with respect to the English language and "les autres" the separatists would become the objects of ridicule and contempt in the US.
ReplyDeleteFROM ED BROWN
ReplyDeleteJOHN, yes, I have been compiling a list of news media sources for both Canada and the U.S. I have been in contact with George Stephanoupoulous and CNN's Jack Cafferty. Both are interested in doing stories. I'm ready to post it but I'm afraid the gloom and doom sayers on this blog would just tear it apart. The idea is to get enough news stories to embarrass P.M. Harper to at least speak out. It would require some positive thinking and I don't see it happening here. Ed
George Stephanounou...George Stephanpou...George Stephanoupoupou....
ReplyDeleteHa Fu**!!!
????
DeleteSR is basically saying he is unable to pronounce the name because it's not Beaulieu or Boisvert or Chaput or Desmarais.
DeleteOoohhhh. Thanks for the translation Foremost.
DeleteLord Dorchester
ReplyDeleteExcellent Blog piece Editor, spot on. The Quebec Media deserve a big fat F- for looking the other way instead of actually doing their job and holding our elected officials and purse string holders accountable. I can only think of one journalist in Montreal that was on top of this for the last couple of years (Linda Gyulai of the Gazette) and the Tremblay administration went after her in the Courts!
To COMPLICATED , you also made some really good points on what ails us here in Quebec. I'm out West in Calgary a few times a year to visit family and friends and you're right, they are ready to cast Quebec off which is increasingly viewed as ungrateful and dare I say hostile to anything or anyone from west of the Ottawa river. We live in a bubble here in Quebec and us English speaking Canucks can see that more than anyone else because we have our feet in each of the Two Solitudes. The level of ignorance I see (on both sides) is quite amazing. You're right about the Quebec debt problem as well. We are speeding towards a brick wall here and what does the new PQ govt do? They increase spending and want to ratchet up the language laws, making it even harder for people to invest here and conduct business , all in the name of protecting the Glorious Quebecois culture. None of my francophone co-workers I speak to have any clue of how ugly things are going to get when the spending is FORCED to stop because no one will lend us any money to fund our spendthrift Quebec Inc model of government. Maybe subconsciously, they know they are doomed as a people because of low birthrates and want to go out with a BANG. Who knows? The Quiet Revolution brought a lot of Francophones out of poverty but its created a monster that, ironically, will hold us back as a society. My feeling is that the younger generation (of Francophones) that will inherit these costs on their shoulders will reject a lot of what their parents and grand parents fed them. Racking up debt as "make work" projects for francophones in Government is OVER.
I had high hopes for the CAQ in the past election, they seemed to be the only ones talking about dealing with Quebec's looming debt problem and lack of wealth creation. We'll see if they can win more seats in next year's election.
And of course, we will probably have to have an investigation into the police action against the law-breaking students during the strike (not that I'm saying we have a great police force by any means) but more money thrown out the window on these useless endeavours. We have to have more ethics taught to these public servants and laws to back them up. Whenever these people take on public service employment, something about power seems to overcome their sensibilities. Don't people see right from wrong anymore?
ReplyDeleteED - There is a time when one has to face the cold hard truth. Even during times of war there are situations where you have to retreat otherwise you get obliterated. Its called common sense. The situation is very dire right now in Quebec. The problem too is all your comments about the past are not going to help us now..its a different world and even you must see that. And one of the huge barriers I see also is the unwillingness for the anglo population to consider another political option such as the CAQ but instead continue supporting the incompetent and/or immoral Libs. Why continue to reward bad behaviour? I see one party in this province which is focused on the REAL issues..high debt, high taxes, corruption and the powerful unions - the language issues are meaninglaess at this point without solving the other issues first. Hence we need someone to come in and try and clean up the mess..the Libs and the PQs have done nothing but make things worse term after term and who do you all vote for election after election. I think thats the definition of insanity..voting the same way and expecting a different outcome. Yes the CAQ might fail and likely wont live up to all their promises like all parties but I think its high time we give someone else a chance to fix the mess we are all in. I will take an experienced businessman anyday over another damn lying lawyer. I could care less about the fact that Legault was a seperatist..he woke up to reality as did Lucien Bouchard..they know how to count..they see that it would be impossible for Quebec to seperate in the financial condition we are in. If that means they fix things up and make this province fiscally strong then they can talk about seperation all they want in 10 or 20 years. The house is burning down and most people here are talking about what colour of drapes to buy and how to rearrange the furniture..we need urgent action now not more of the same.
ReplyDeleteLord Dorchester -
I lived in Alberta for many years and other points to the west and I know exactly what you mean. There is really a strong anger there about how Quebec abuses the rest of the country on a regular basis and again cant blame them. This abuse has been going on for decades. It will end when the money supply gets cut off to the government of Quebec..either from the rest of Canada or the bond market. I see it happening within 10 years at the current rates..if interest rates rise rapidly it could happen sooner. We have had as strong economic times as one could hope for..the lowest interest rates in history and Quebec still adds to the debt. It just encourages Quebec to be wasteful. You can be darn sure that when a bond crisis starts then most Quebecers will blame the bankers and ask the government to refuse to pay..its fine to borrow the money for decades but when its payback time then they will whine like babies.
The USA is in a mess too but at least they have room to push taxes higher and they have a pretty hard working entrepreneurial population which will carry them a long ways. Quebec has a bloated lazy dishonest workforce in general who have a serious attitude problem..not a winning combination. My prediction is that when the crisis hits and many francophonoes become unemployed they will leave Quebec just like they did in the past and end up working elsewhere in Canada even if it means speaking in english. You can argue all you want about language but when you run out of money you will do anything to get it.
FROM ED BROWN
ReplyDeleteAlright Complicated you win. I give up. I am prepared to fight but I'll do it somewhere others will fight with me, not just cry about things.So you go on son telling us what we already know and doing nothing about it. In the meantime there are families in need and people to feed so until I see an opening where I can do something positive I'll keep on feeding, clothing and boosting morale where I can. I'll waste no more time with crying do nothings here. Ed
Ed - Oh please spare me the dramatizations. I have tried to knock sense into many many people here and in my day to day life. But it seems to fall on deaf ears from both the francophone and anglophone side. Most francophones dont seem to have a clue about the upcoming debt crisis..they seem to think that money will always fall from the sky..they dont see the economy gettng worse because of harsher languages laws..they typically live in la la land. On the other hand most anglophones are stuck in their ways too..continuing to blindly support the same party which time in and time out has only worsened conditions here in Quebec. The anglos are also unwilling to accept that perhaps they are also part of the problem and often wax nostalgically about the good ole days when those francophones were kept in check. Frankly both sides are pretty immature and if you want to know why I am so negative its because the only hope I see is for the anglophones to join up with the centre-right wing francophone vote and elect the CAQ but it will never happen..definitely not from the anglos who will keep on wasting their vote for a party that treats them like dirt.
ReplyDeleteYou can talk about fighting all you want ED but some battles are unwinnable even if you want to throw out more tired WW2 military cliches. The climate right now in Quebec is poisoned from both sides..both the anglos and many francos are set in their ways..there is a minority out there who are more flexible but its not enough.
And you know what ED I do applaud all your charitable efforts..we need more people like you to take care of the poor and needy and more of us should also contribute more of our time in this way. But in terms of your political views I just dont see eye to eye with you.
GO ED GO !!
DeleteWell all if you're unhappy with the situation for the anglophones and allophones here in Quebec, get off your respective butts and do something about it. That's the only way they are going to take notice of the loss of our rights as Canadian citizens - start writing letters, send names of companies that refuse to advertise in bilingual format to the Quebec Office of the English Language, tell the stores that you go to that you will not shop there any longer if they don't have English on their signs (which I did yesterday at a store in Aylmer). The Quebec Office of the English Language is planning on expanding their organization and are looking for assistance. Ask how you may help them - I did. You will gain nothing if you do not fight back against the bigotry the PQ puts on the backs of all those that are not pur laine. Stop making excuses as to why this can't be done and talking about changing our vote in the next election will make no difference whatsoever. Besides, I've seen nothing concrete yet about the Liberal party of Quebec to make me think they are any worse than having the brain dead PQ in power. Legault is still a separatist - he makes no bones about it. If you don't want Quebec to secede from Canada, what good is voting for Legault going to do expect change the time frame? A separatist is a separatist is a separatist. Start fighting back with your computer via e-mails and let everyone who will listen know that you've had enough of these people ruining our lives!
ReplyDeleteAnd another surge right past Quebec in the coming years:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1272660--saskatchewan-premier-brad-wall-releases-vision-2020-and-beyond-plan-to-lure-workers
Cutie - You prove my point..typical anglophone response..a seperatist is always a seperatist. Do you really truly believe that? There are many people who have changed their minds on important issues in their lives. I used to be a huge fan of the NDP when I was young and naive now I cant stand them..so does that mean that I still truly am an NDPer. Its this black and white way of thinking that will get us nowhere.
ReplyDeleteYou would rather elect a party that actually introduced the first language law in this province. A party that clearly was heavily involved in illegal activities over the past 8 years. A party that has done nothing to stem the massive debt issue. Basically you want more of the same incompetence and immorality???
Lets say Legault does go back to his seperatist ways in 10 years. But lets say he has actually cleaned up the fiscal mess..tackled the unions..cut taxes..reduced unemployment..made Quebec competitive again. I say well worth the price. I would rather have that then another 10 years of Liberal or PQ mismanagement that will result in us becoming Greece..because it wont matter whether or not people want to seperate because we will all be destitute!!!
Complicated, you make some great points, but I think he wants to clean up the fiscal mess SO THAT he's in a great position to have a referendum in 10yrs. I'm convinced that that's really what is on his Agenda down the road. He wants to ready the province financially in order to be in the best position possible to achieve it. I must tell you, I am not a fan. If this is in fact his plan I'd have a lot more respect for him if he would be straightforward about it. But what politician ever is?
DeleteThat's exactly the way I feel AnecTOTE.
DeleteAnectote - That may very well be true. But again I have no problem with that as long as he actually cleans up the mess we are in now financially. If he can actually bring about real change to Quebec and make it competitive with any other province in this country..cut the debt, cut taxes, business friendly environment, weaken the unions then I could care less what he does in 10 years. Alberta right now could seperate and frankly they would be better off if they did.
DeleteI would rather live in an independant Quebec which is strong financially and well run then a crippled destitute province in which corruption, powerful unions, lazy bureaucrats are the norm. I know this sounds like heresy but the bottom line is that the whole debate here about language becomes meaningless when your economy falls to pieces and nobody has jobs.
I would agree with you except for the fact that he has stated that he is a separatist - he has not converted. At least Bouchard faced the facts that Quebec can't make it on it's own and still the separatists won't face the truth, even though he was their big hero. Until they're smacked in the face with it, like what is happening in Greece and other socialist countries they will continue to live in la-la land. The only reason he is not with the PQ is because he did not agree with Pauline on many issues and I'm sure he wanted her job. What I'm trying to say is that it would do no good to have another separatist party in power - what would change for the anglophones or allophones? He says he will take on the unions - I have yet to see any party that would be elected into office by the separatists that would tackle problems with the unions or students - all these parties play right into the hands of the socialist mentality of the people in this province. I know that the Liberals are far from perfect but during their tenure we had some growth (at least in this area). Get someone into power with the guts to stand up for what's right in this place and hopefully we can turn some of this socialist mentality of the separatists around and they will have to face the truth of the deplorable circumstances we are in. I hope the Liberals pick the right man for the job - that's the only hope federalists have to regain our rights in this province. Any separatist elected to office gives a naught about our rights.
ReplyDeleteLD
DeleteHe may be a Seppie but his second banana, Jacques Duschesneau, is a member of The Order of Canada and about as Federalist as you can get. If he was serious about Separation, he'd bolt over to the PQ with a few CAQists in tow and vote to have a referendum. We shall wait and see what happens...
All the seppies are aware that they can't have a referendum right now - the numbers show it would be useless but that doesn't mean they won't jump on the bandwagon should the numbers change. Seppies are still seppies and will take advantage of any opportunity to put this province and the country into jeopardy without a second thought. That's why I will never ever vote for a separatist party unless they state they will accept partition should they vote to leave Canada. That I will vote for anytime. So seppies, you want my vote? That's how to get me on side!
DeleteCutie - Legault has said he is neutral at this point and thats good enough for me. I will take a competent neutral politician anyday over an incompetent/dishonest federalist. The Liberals had nothing to do with any growth we saw over the past 8 years..we just hitched a ride onto the coattails of Canada led by Alberta and crazy deficit spending by the conservatives.
DeleteI have yet to ever hear a Liberal say that the unions are a problem and that they would take them on..never heard it..so the CAQ I believe are the first political party in Quebec who have made this one of their main goals..thats a big deal. They also are the only party talking about cutting waste in government..I have never heard either the Liberals or PQ mention this. They dont talk about it because they dont want to scare away all their left-wing nutcase votes. The CAQ is being surprisingly honest about their intentions and it certainly cost them some seats among francophones.
There will be no saviour coming for the Liberal party..its more of the same..they have had more than their fair share of chances to clean things up..they were among the most corrupt arguably more corrupt than the PQ!!! And these are the people you want to reward with yet another term??? Why because you are so anti anybody who was or might have seperatist tendencies that you would prefer to have a criminal who treats you like dirt running this province?? Makes a lot of sense..there is absolutely no logic or reason with that way of thinking..its voting out of fear and tradition..we wont get anywhere with that attitude.
Yannick - You bring up a very good point about Greece..there are more and more people leaning towards extremist parties..this is typical when people are suffering. I see the same kind of scenario happening here in Quebec within 5-10 years. If the economy collapses the PQ will try to stir up anger among the francophones against the federal govt and convince people how much better things would be in a seperate Quebec. They will bring in even more restrictive stupid policies..it scares me really. The economy has been relatively good for many years and we still have the tensions..watch out when the economy turns south then people will really get angry. People tend not to think rationally when they are in distress...they panic..they look for a savior..Hitler came into power under these conditions after Weimar.
DeleteAchtung!!!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/groups/275962695828596/
Rassemblement de nazis ...In ontario
Who the hell cares stupid?
ReplyDeleteCutie galganov?Is it you?
DeleteWell complicated I feel there is no hope for this province in any way at all until all threats of separation are dead and buried. If we get a government in power that is willing to sign the Constitution, we may have a chance to pull out of this mess. If not there will be no growth based on immigration because they will soon realize that they do not have the freedom that they were promised when they came to Canada, thereby leaving Quebec behind as soon as they become established and with a career in mind. We won't have to worry about any housing bubble because our homes here will be worthless as people will keep leaving once they earn anything over $40,000 because the taxes will drive them out. Turn their homes back to the bank and go west young man, go west. All that will be left in this place are the bums that don't have an education, people that refuse to learn English that would allow them access to thousands of jobs elsewhere, and old timers on pension that can't afford to leave. In other words, no federalist government in power, no signature on the constitution that could lead us back to prosperity.
DeleteCutie - No government in Quebec will ever sign the constitution..it would be political suicide. What I find ironic is that you are so against seperation yet the only way partition will ever be an option is if the province votes to seperate..a catch-22. Back to my main point..the seperation and language issue needs to go on the back burner for many years as the debt, taxes,corruption, infrastructure, economy all need emergency help now.
DeleteIf you want any hope of your property being worth anything we need a government that will cut waste in the government, cut taxes, be business-friendly, fight corruption and not talk about seperation. There is only one party that offers any hope on all these fronts..the CAQ. Do I believe they can do it all..probably not..but I believe they will try and even if they only accomplish half of what they promise it will be a heck of a lot better than anything the Libs and PQ have and will offer. We need to take a gamble because there is no time left..we cant afford another 4 years of mismanagement and corruptiion.
I repeat again, I don't see the necessity of letting quebec decide on it's own when they feel it's OK to have a referendum. Is there a rule that states this somewhere that I don't know about? Why can't the population demand a referendum on partition of this place to let those areas go that want to go? Why not promote that option? It's better than letting some separatist party lead the way again on when and how they will leave the country. There are new parties coming up all the time - we just need one with the guts to put the reins in our hands for a change. When you look at the new polls, why do you feel that we could not have a government in power, for the good of everyone, that is willing to sign the constitution? There are a great number of people who would like some stability in their lives and this is the way to get it. Without this stability, the province is going down no matter who's in office in Quebec City. By the way, read what anceTOTE says above. Totally, so totally true.
Delete"Is there a rule that states this somewhere that I don't know about?"
DeletePour être honnête avec vous,je crois que vous ne connaissez absolument rien en matière de politique canayenne.Vous partez de très loin...Que diriez-vous de commencer par le début avec un cours de politique...101 ?
You seppies don't have control - you've been told you do but that BS along with everything else those who want to suck you dry, preach. Try being cooperative for a change and see how your life would change for the better. Point out to me where it says that "Quebec, without the ROC, can determine it's own destiny". You can go (which suits me fine) but the ROC will determine how and when. That's what you don't get. That's what the SUPREME COURT OF CANADA SAYS - NEGOTIATIONS WITH QUEBEC WILL ONLY BE HELD WHEN YOU MEET CERTAIN CONDITIONS - CLARITY ACT CONDITIONS - GOT IT? When you get a clear majority, when you present a clear question such as "Do you want to leave Canada?" - then and only then will the ROC even consider letting you go and the borders of a new country will be re-drawn at that time. Don't think you'll slither off with what you want birdbrain. First thing will be no Canadian dollar, next you'll take your share of the national debt (should include all those misspent transfer payments that you've robbed Canada of over the they years), no partnership, no association, no military, no equipment that belongs to Canada, no buildings or land that belong to Canada, - don't think they won't play hardball with you ass----- - you think you can ruin lives without impunity but you'll soon learn.
Delete"Do you want to leave Canada?"
DeleteIl y a mille et une façons de poser la question.
Rhétorique 101
"...no partnership, no association, no military, no equipment that belongs to Canada, no buildings or land that belong to Canada..."
DeletePlus de cutie non plus ? ... :(
@complicated - see the next thread - 83% of Quebecers say being part of Canada is to their advantage. This is the time for a government to be heard on signing the constitution. The seppies are starting to realize that going it alone is impossible and economic suicide. We need a strong Liberal leader to point out, clearly, the advantages of being part of Canada. No one ever does that - it's time to speak up! Let's get out of this stalemate and move on to bigger and better things in this country. Until then, we will be stuck in this economic stranglehold.
ReplyDeleteCutie - We need a non-Liberal/PQ leader who will fix the fiscal mess we are in, clean up the corruption, take on the unions and the students, and focus on the economy. We dont need more mismanagement and lies from the Liberals.
DeleteI will say it again..I would rather live in a strong fiscally well run independant Quebec than a decaying, corrupt, bankrupt province anyday. But Quebec would truly need to be well run..my standards are high..the deficit eliminated, taxes lowered, and a debt repayment plan that is rigourouly enforced, a much leaner government, toughest anti-corruption laws on the continent. If Mr.Legault can actually turn the financial affairs of this province around in a meaningful way over the next 10 years then I really wont care as much by then if he starts promoting seperation. Because another 10 years of the Libs or PQ and this province is toast economically..we will be literally bankrupt. The Liberals have proven that they cant manage the debt any more..the debt has increased by 50 percent over the Liberals past 8 years..horrible. Look at the facts in this article..the Liberals have been just as bad managing the debt as the PQ.. http://www.themetropolitain.ca/articles/view/1201
All separatist governments want to blame all their problems on the ROC - they will never own up to any responsibility when they can say they have no control - it's Ottawa stopping them from living up to their promises - that's what they all do. Can't see Legault being any different - he says he will be but I don't have any faith in him. Sorry. Until there is cooperation with the ROC on the many ways for investments and distribution, we will be held hostage by these seppies. They will never admit that they need what Canada has to offer and therefore we will continue on with the stagnation. They spend all their money on promoting separation, creating positions that are unnecessary and duplicated by the Federal Government and couldn't care less about anything else. They all line their pockets creating these problems and don't have to worry about their future - couldn't care less about their citizens.
ReplyDeleteThe Liberals were no different..how many times did Charest blame Canada and talk tough against Canada. Its part of the political game here..most Quebecers dont want their government being too cozy with Canada especially led by a right winger like Harper.
ReplyDeleteSo you have no faith in Legault because of the dreaded seperatist tag which means he is pure evil. However its ok to elect a government that has done nothing to stop the decline of Quebec, that increased the debt by 50 percent in 8 years, that has been rocked by all sorts of scandals, that did nothing about the outrageous corruption that was raging while they were in power, that basically ignores the anglo community, that totally mishandled the student crisis, etc. I call this insanity..you are going to continue to vote for a party that time and time again has failed in almost every category.
It really boggles my mind how many anglos are so blinded by the fear of anything related to seperation that it forces them to abandon logic and common sense completely and continue to elect the same failures over and over. And somehow you expect things to get better..how can things possibly get better with another Liberal government..how many times do they need to be in power and screw up before you get it. I really have zero sympathy for all the entrenched anglos..one has to take some risk to move things forward otherwise it will be more of the same.
I want to take a risk - I want this place kicked out of confederation and partition to take place the way it should. I want someone to cut the umbilical cord that quebec has to Canada and finally put the screws to them to get in or get out. That's what I want - the faster the better. 40 years and counting is way too long to put up with the bullshit they continue to foster on their population and the seppies still swallow it hook, line and sinker. Shake them loose and let them go on their way - that's the way, the only way, out of this dead end that we're stuck in. As long as we vote seppies into power (I don't care which one) it looks as if we're all voting for the same thing - which we're not. Imagine if all the federalists voted for the CAQ, would the ROC not see that as a positive move to separation with popular support behind it? Of course they would, they would have every reason to think that - that's when they would probably cut us loose - all of us - and that's what I want to ensure doesn't happen. These two solitudes will be here until the final blow - can't be helped because of optics. Don't you see that?
ReplyDeleteThe ROC would look favourably on it as they view the CAQ as a right wing party something that Quebec sorely needs. You know there are many federalists in the CAQ too..its not just a bunch of ex-seperatists. The problem with you is that you are completely blinded when it comes to anybody who was or is involved with seperation..you dont even want to listen. As soon as you hear the word seperatist it automatically means pure evil and danger. And on the other side if one is labelled a federalist then its all roses even if you are a corrupt immoral scumbag. There is no gray with you but only black and white.
DeleteIts like many Americans..they are either Republican or Democrat and there is no room in between. This two party system and idealogy just divides..people dont even listen to each other anymore or they only hear what they want to hear. Not all seperatists are evil demented people and not all federalists are wonderful competent honest people..surely you must know that. I honestly dont believe many anglos here believe it and thats one of the fundamental problems here. If you cant even listen to the other side without instantly demonizing everything they say then its hopeless. I still recall the interview the night of the last election..Mr.Beryl Wasjman was absolutely blasting a well spoken woman from the PQ..he was incredibly rude but so many anglos thought he was wonderful. In any other situation most people would have said he was a total obnoxious jerk but because he was the federalist and she was the seperatist well then it was ok to literally pummel her. Why because so many anglos are so angry that you cant even talk to them without them blowing a fuse.
We have got to find a way to get the anglophones and centre right francophone vote to align so that we can fix the real problems at hand. I only see this possible via the CAQ. Frankly many anglos..especially the ones who frequent this forum as just as much the problem as the Mario Beaulieus out there..both sides are constantly looking for ways to demonize the other side. We wont get anywhere like this..and the Liberals..its mind boggling to me that anglos continue to see the Liberals as the only hope even after all the corruption and mismanagement..its obviously based solely on emotion.
We will never see eye to eye on this so there is no use continuing any discussion. You are a typical fence sitter and, because of people like you, there will be no end in sight for the dilemma we are in. You and Yannink can't make up your mind which way to jump - I made up my mind a long time ago - incompetent as the Liberals may be, no one else has offered any option that involves even trying to get along with the ROC. So vote Legault come next election - I'd put money on the table to bet he changes nothing because we are finished without the ROC to take into consideration whenever we vote. Let him say that he is no longer interested in separating from Canada and I will consider him a serious candidate - not until.
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