Wednesday, October 10, 2012

Heightened Language Hostility ...Is this the New Normal?

 
 Watching the rising tide of of language conflict ever since the provincial election on September fourth, I cannot help but thinking of a high school food fight, or an out of control bench-clearing hockey brawl, where once ignited the bedlam cannot be stopped until it has run its destructive course.

There is no doubt that the PQ's controversial election platform and its subsequent ascension to power, has set the stage for something we never really saw in Quebec, real confrontation on the street between the English minority and the French majority.
That is because Pauline is viewed by the Anglo community as the most hostile and aggressive of all the PQ Premiers, someone who makes no bones about her plan to govern for the 80% francophone population, while disdaining the rest.
The aggressive language policy which the PQ enunciated during the election campaign pandered to language militants boosting their expectations and emboldening them into action now that the PQ is elected.

Unfortunately the stars seem to have aligned in a particularly bad way, with the hurtful PQ election campaign followed by the attempt on Marois' life and the death of an innocent by a deranged Anglo, followed by several well-publicized language incidents.

Some Anglos are now saying that they fear speaking English in public, lest they be accosted, while some francophones are saying they are intimidated to ask for service in French in the West Island or even in downtown Montreal.

It's getting weird...
Where the heck did all this come from? I've never seen this in my lifetime and I go way back.

Perhaps it is the age of social media that brings all these conflicts to our immediate attention and perhaps it was always there but unseen or unheard, but somehow I think not.

An idiot standing on a soapbox on the corner of Peel and Ste-Catherine St. in downtown Montreal, hurling insults at either the English or the French passersby will be roundly ignored, but if he put those same insults on a Facebook page, it would likely end up being a very big deal.

One thing francophone militants are right about is the attitude change in the English, who seem to believe that with no one in government interested in protecting their rights, it is up to them to stand up for themselves.
This new and brash attitude has shocked the French militant community, who for so long were accustomed to Anglos rolling over.

This aggressive attitude is typified by the now infamous Facebook quote by a Cineplex Odeon employee who answered a complainer (who has asked for an explanation as to why the newest and most technologically advanced screening rooms in a Laval movie complex showed only English movies) with the insultingly dismissive phrase, "If you don't like it, go to Guzzo :)" Link

Anglos thought the incident hilarious, francophones, not so much.

The tables were turned when a Montreal metro ticket agent  put up a home-made sign on the window of his booth, warning commuters that in Quebec, everything is supposed to happen in French, intimating that he wasn't going to speak English to customers, no matter what. While the Anglo media raged at the affront, francophones thought the Anglos were making a mountain out of a molehill.

Now in any fight between the English and the French there isn't much doubt as to who has the advantage of numbers and the weight of authority behind them.

But just as the students taught us, it doesn't take a lot of effort to bring organized society to its knees and let's face it, the students were actually taking it easy on us and could have done a lot more damage.

It is safe to say that reasonable people, which make up the vast majority of Quebecers are not at all pleased at the confrontational direction we are going towards.

The real problem is, that whatever language equilibrium that existed before with the Quebec Liberals, is gone with the election of the PQ and there now exists a real danger that things can degenerate into an unstoppable language food fight.

Now before readers go off on me and say that the English suffered under the Liberal government as well, the truth is that our community largely accepted limits placed upon English up to then, a grudgingly acceptable compromise and while most of us didn't like these language laws, the restrictions weren't so onerous that it drove us into the street.
For those who are going to jump on me for the statement, I'll have to remind them that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, in other words the very lack of English resistance and push back during the Charest regime, serves as proof that the Anglos had largely accepted the language compromise.

So what is to come?

Well  it seems that Anglos have drawn a line in the sand.
If harsh new language laws are put in place, there will be push back by Anglos and how dangerous things will become is anyone's guess.
The government can triple the force of the OQLF officers but if they think they will have the cooperation of those into whose life they intrude, I will remind you of the Shawville experience where in 1999, a posse of militant Shawville English-speakers chased a provincial “language police” inspector out of town during a showdown over French on business signs.
 
As we can see in today's climate, it doesn't take much to set off a language incident and it might not  be long before these new OQLF inspectors (which are supposed to be hired,) find an unwelcome reception, forcing them to work in groups or accompanied by armed guards or police. We really may be approaching this.

As for compliance with these OQLF directives demanding English signs be submissive or that descriptors be added to English store names, legal contestations by thousands of stores and business could gum up the legal system to a point where the resolution of a file could take over three years, after which the merchant just before final adjudication, could just remove the sign and replace it with another equally 'offensive' sign.
This game of judicial terrorism, was proposed by separatist journalist Josée Legault who advised the government to play this cat and mouse game of legal rope-a-dope when faced with unfavourable Supreme Court language decisions.

The realIty is that our society functions only as long as each group respects not only the law but the spirit of the law as well.
This is the lesson that students taught us recently, that when a government passes legislation that offends or in fact outrages a significant portion of its citizens, it risks dangerous blowback and civil disobedience which can rock the very foundations of democracy.

So far Anglos may be comforted in seeing the PQ  trip over themselves, making one gaffe after another, looking more like high school Parliamentarians then those capable of running a province.

Taking one step forward and two steps back, the finance minister has already admitted that he has to go back to the drawing board in relation to his plan to tax the rich retroactively, after being told by opposition parties that they will not support the minority government over the tax issue.

There remains a very real fear in the PQ that if the government is brought down, the Liberals and the Coalition Avenir Quebec will form a coalition government, thus bypassing a new election.

So all legislation will have to be a compromise, or else Pauline could turn into a sad sack like Joe Clark, who's minority Conservative government was swept out of power after just seven months. I believe she is cagey enough to understand this and will never let it happen.
For Pauline, even her supporters will admit that power has always been her ultimate goal with dogmatic language and sovereignty policies, clearly subservient.

But even though Pauline won't risk her government on separatist or extreme language principles, there is one thing that the PQ can and will do that should have Anglos worrying.

Pauline can successfully legislate on language, because none of the opposition parties can survive bringing down the government defending the English. It would be the proverbial kiss of death.

And so it will be inevitable that Pauline moves to strengthen Bill 101, perhaps sacrificing the controversial proposal to apply Bill 101 to cegeps.
I honestly don't think that most in the caucus are really for the proposal, which was only made to satisfy the radical element.
I'm sure Pauline can include the provision in the bill, using it as a bargaining chip, to be offered up to the opposition in order to have all sides coming up smelling like roses.
Pauline will claim that she had to compromise and the opposition will tell us how they effectively diluted the Bill.
Everyone is a winner!!

Er....not everyone....

Part of these 'non-controversial' aspects to the beefed up Bill 101 will see business' of between 11 and 50 employees now fall under the francization rules of the law, forcing them to operate in French, even if every single employee is English.
I cannot think of a more disastrous law, one that is guaranteed to drive small business' to Ontario and points beyond.

Imagine a family business in the West Island where all eleven employees, bosses and workers are English, being forced to operate in French.
Every internal document would have to be translated, new French software would have to be purchased, despite the fact that nobody would use it and meetings would have to be held in French.
It is Orwellian.

And it is coming.....

While Mr. Beaulieu and his minions are rubbing their hands in glee at the thought of finally sticking it to the Anglos, they might consider what demons and devils lie within the Pandora's box they are opening.

237 comments:

  1. Honestly the best way for the wimpy anglos to pushback is via tax revolt. Hit them where it hurts and hit them fucking hard.

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    1. What are you proposing? Just stop paying our taxes?

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    2. If we did that, would our property not be seized legally? I agree with the principal but am afraid that it would be futile.

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    3. What are you proposing? Just stop paying our taxes?

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    4. A tax revolt is not possible. Since most anglophones work for companies, they would need their employer's permission to stop sending taxes to the Gov't. Employers are not able to do so as it will cause them more problems with all the Gov't forms and payments or reimbursements they have to do. Such as Employment insurance payments, CSST payments, Pensions etc etc. Although you think with holding taxes will do something, it will only cause us more problems than benefits. If employers withhold taxes, the Gov't will withhold GST/PST refunds, withhold pension payments, refuse to pay out CSST claims, and or Unemployment payments. It would be a disaster for us.

      In order to bring about change, we have to stop being a bunch of wimps and start standing up and voicing ourselves and demanding changes. Start demanding Federal intervention or provincial representation for the English community elected by the English community.

      Even without the PQ making even more language restrictions, the English community is DEAD here in Quebec unless drastic changes happen. We've lost over half of student enrollment in our schools. Without students, who become the future of English Quebecers, our schools will slowly close one after another and our community will slowly die.

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    5. If you really want to hit them where it hurts and bring this all to the attention of all Canadians, shut down the island. Daily morning rush hour tailgate parties on the met and the Decarie. Bring coffee and park your cars from 7am to noon. Every day until our rights as citzens of this country are respected. Their house of cards will crumble within a few months. Marois, 101 and their supporters will become the footnote of a book nobody cares to read anymore.

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    6. There is no real support for 101 in the province, even from a large part of the Francophone population. When jobs and cash flow come under threat nobody but SR and Rheale types will still line up in support. They represent the fringe, extremists even to their own. It's all a paper castle with loudmouthed public figures. All anyone really cares about is getting on with their lives, stability and an end to this. So lets bring it down. Shut down the island and no provincial government will survive without bringing an adequate solution to the table. No federal politician will be able to turn away and pretend we dont exist. Forty years of repression can be brought down with a few hundred cars in a few months.

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    7. The Oka tried that. Look how well that went. Plus, they had guns, so people took 'em seriously.

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    8. I dont see the parallel Foremost. An English community parking thousands of vehicles on the roads they pay for in defiance seeking equality within their province is not an armed threat. It's a civil revolution to a repressive and fascist status quo.
      Oka turned out brilliantly. I dont see any Franco - first nuts hammering down their door to enforce linguistic legislation or any more golf courses on their territory. It will work just as well for us. Are they going to arrest and tow thousands of us daily? So be it. We pay more in taxes to support the OLF with comfortable salaries than the court and towing fees will cost us from such an action.
      Shut down the met and the decarie and you have Canada's attention and the province by the balls.

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    9. "When jobs and cash flow come under threat nobody but SR and Rheale types will still line"

      Nous sommes les gardiens et les protecteurs,les yeux et les oreilles des Québécois.
      Nous vous surveillons de près,vous,les ennemis de la Nation.

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    10. You watch too many movies SR. You're nothing. Your militia was disbanded for the real fear that the RCMP and CSIS would put you all where you belong. You're a dildo without batteries, a limp voice with no viagra.
      You buy used Canadian army uniforms and play soldier in your get togethers but you're completely incapable of being a threat to anyone but yourselves. The island, even after 40 years of your bullshit, is still ours brick to brick and road to road.

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    11. Your movement is as dead and rotted as the racist puke that founded Vigile. A bloated carcass of noxious gasses that expanded to nothing but a derelict economy, a corrupt political and judicial system, and thousands of fed up citizens that will face you if the situation continues and will cause the breakup of your beloved Quebec. You'll be on the north end of the Lachapelle looking over at Ontario.

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    12. Yes - the SRs, Josee Legault's and Pauline Marois' can go suck rocks = who gives a shit how they feel about anything. If I lived in Montreal I think ethic has a great idea. Close the damn place down until things change. People would realize that we're sick of all these crazy spending habits that the Quebec governments continue to put on Quebec citizens = Just hearing that the PQ government will not stop the health tax - surprise, surprise, they need the money!

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    13. @ethnic - Dude the tailgate party idea on decarie and the met is hilarious!!!!

      Such a crazy idea that it might just work!

      Lol

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    14. @ethnic - Dude the tailgate party idea on decarie and the met is hilarious!!!!

      Such a crazy idea that it might just work!

      Lol

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    15. L'important est de renforcir notre merveilleuse loi 101.Cette loi vaut un million de fusils et a l'avantage d'être moins bruyante.Avez-vous remarqué la vitesse avec laquelle les écoles anglos ferment leurs portes...Ahurissant.

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    16. "Just hearing that the PQ government will not stop the health tax"

      Nous ne voulons que votre bien cutie et nous l'aurons :)

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    17. @Ethnic - I don't even need to say anything, you said it perfectly.

      The SRs and Rheales truly are completely worthless and when I hear SR sputtering shit like "Nous sommes les gardiens et les protecteurs,les yeux et les oreilles des Québécois.
      Nous vous surveillons de près,vous,les ennemis de la Nation."

      Gotta love it when the people with the absolutely least going on in life talk like they're all that.

      BTW, if you do that tailgate party, be sure to call in the natives. That should turn the province upside down for a while.

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    18. Ho quel menu!

      Entre la mafia menaçante et un gouvernement klepocrate et "éthique alla péquista" mon cœur vacille.

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    19. Spencer the Spineless PorcupineWednesday, October 10, 2012 at 9:21:00 PM EDT

      I must admit, I really do love Ethnic's idea of locking down the city with parked cars. If we couple that with a mass letter campaign to anyone who is willing to listen, and post protest signs all over the city. Then all of a sudden the minority few will have a voice louder than the majority.

      Get a strong partition movement going, even if it doesn't actually amount to partition having it all happen at once would shake the foundations.

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    20. Parlez-en à Gogo Shebbeare,il dépense une énergie folle rien que pour réunir 12 beignets sur un coin de rue...Quel éclat!

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    21. Hiding inside your car and disturbing traffic in your own area is hardly a smart protest tactic. I would suggest downtown, with banners, real people.

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    23. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    24. The economic arteries of the province are the the met and the decarie. If you want people to listen then you squeeze. Lame sit ins in closed down schools and hugo's 12 people that show up for anti 101 rallies are a waste of time. Squeeze them where it hurts - their pockets! Shut down these roads daily and a solution to 101, one way or the other, will be on everyones to do list, from the federal and provincial slimeball politicians, to the big business moguls that own downtown and pay for political campaigns to keep their work smooth. There's no other way than to go for the jugular in my opinion.

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    25. Actually Ethnic,

      Blocking the Decairie would effect the minorities more and the Pur Laine nationalists might not even get inconvenienced. But if the bridges from Repentigny and or the 25 from laval and south shore. That will get all kinds of media attention very fast.

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    26. Ethnic, oh yeah, it is the French that are the big business moguls traffic jams on Decarie will hurt the most. LOL

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    27. No they're not Natalia. It's the Anglophone big business that keep their mouths shut to get along and keep raking in the dough. It's a federal system that will roll over as long as it still maintains some fluidity in its daily dealings through Montreal. It's banks and corporations that put up with institutionalized racism as long as they can maintain their business quota. It's the so called responsible members of our society that should be at the forefront of an equitable society instead of looking out for their bottom line exclusively. It's the port of Montreal that is essential to transport throughout our province and others. Montreal is the heart of the region.
      I don't care how many people get inconvenienced on their way to work where they accept their cheque in return for their compliance with their second class citizenship and complete lack of political representation. They'll get taxed on that cheque to feed the mouths of OLF agents that will brow beat them and penalize them for speaking that 'other' language.
      Shut down Montreal and kill 101. Nothing else will do. They'll all drag their feet for the sake of political expediency while you lose more of your rights, schools, members of your community, and while your children are indoctrinated in public institutions to hate themselves. And this is in fact, exactly what's been happening for the past 40 years. Cowardly let's get along in futility attempts at resistance, decade long court cases that amount to nothing and ever increasing measures against us. I for one, am done with being policed over what language I chose to speak, being fined for it, and having a vote that doesn't mean jack shit.

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    28. Seeking a more 'civilized' non - confrontational solution is just an indicator at the level of indoctrination. There will be no solution unless we make it happen. Quebec will not roll over while they have the upper hand unless their position to maintain control in a bigotted and racial manner is undermined. We will not have a federal saviour unless it's profitable to them. Even Harper threw the 'nation' bone in exchange for a few votes. Nobody will give you rights you've lost unless you fight for them.
      If you think this is extreme, consider that you live in a democrstic country where you have no democratic rights since there isn't a single political representative that truly represents your interests and your community. You are less than your Francophone neighbour by virtue of your last name and the language you speak. You are a Kurd in Canada, where Turkish style linguistic legislation seeks to forcibly erase you from the place you live. Wars are fought on less, bloody revolutions have happened for a vote that counts.
      Don't be sheep for wolves like Marois that make a sacrificial lamb out of our community on our money so she can gain her demagogues pulpit. Fight back! If it's been tried over the past 40 years and it failed, then tear it up and be bold with something new.

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    29. The few can have a loud voice on three lanes of road that will paralyze business in Quebec and beyond. So loud a voice that it will be heard from Halifax to Vancouver despite the media whitewash we've had to endure for decades.

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    30. We will have to agree to disagree. I am against hiding in cars and provoking road rage and children being stuck in daycares waiting for their parents they see for two hours a day. There are MANY tactics at our disposal.

      What you are proposing would be the best way to discredit my reconciliation and understanding efforts, so I would be the first to denounce this tactic. It would put people against us, even those in our own camp.

      What we need to do now, preemptively, before the new 101 hits us on the forehead, is to organize and agree on tactics that would have popular support and resonate with French Quebecers as well, at least those that live here, that are our real neighbors. Hence why I support bilingualism extending across the country. I wish English-speakers would learn more from the student strike, but it was painted in black by the English media, so I am not surprised they didn't.

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    31. S.R. c'est quoi notre bien, au juste, que vous voulez tant? Parce que quand je lis vos commentaires, je ne y vois rien qui m'attire.

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    32. I dont know about you Natalia, but 101's been smacking down my head my whole life. I don't feel like waiting another lifetime to be extended my natural rights as a Canadian. I've paid enough fines for speaking or writing in English. I've seen enough swastikas, enough beatings, attempted bombings and the rest of the bs that goes on here. If my Francophone neighbours really cared they would've spoken up in the years that members of our families picked up and left their homes; they would've spoken up when terrorists were allowed to go free after planting bombs in our cafes; they would've supported a party that represents our own interests as well their own; they wouldn't be holding accomodation talks about us as if we're visitors instead of citizens of this country that belong as much as anyone else.
      I don't care about pushing bilingualism across the country. Screw appeasing the Quebecois at the expense of our own democratic right to a political voice and representation. How about having some bilingualism here, now?

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    33. Ethnic, well said. Perhaps Michel Patrice will read your comment and realize that his non francophone brother in law whom he professes to love like a brother is the victim of the prejudices supported by Patrice.

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  2. FROM ED BROWN
    We can do it inside or from outside, Mr.Sauga has given a good idea in emailing news sources. If we all do it we can get the problem out in the open and challenge Harper to act. Ed

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    1. I still say that the Federal government has a legal and moral obligation to protect the rights of Canadian citizens, no matter where they reside, but especially within its' own borders. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

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    2. The problem isn't whether or not.
      It's to what extent.

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  3. The Editor writes:

    And so it will be inevitable that Pauline moves to strengthen Bill 101, perhaps sacrificing the controversial proposal to apply Bill 101 to cegeps.

    It will be interesting to see how she plans to circumvent human rights legislation if she does ever consider extending Bill 101 to CEGEPs. She very well may have to invoke the "notwithstanding" clause of the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms to do so. Section 23 on Minority Language of Education of the Canadian Charter only applies, as I understand it, to grade schools and high schools but not CEGEPs or universities. And because there is "no hierarchy of rights" in the Charter, the anti-discrimination clause of either the Canadian or Quebec charters of rights couldn't be used against Bill 101's language of education provisions as they are tailored to adhere to section 23.

    Not the case for CEGEPs. So it will be interesting to see if any such bill invokes the "notwithstanding" clause in order to keep francophones and allophones out of CEGEPs. I don't know how else she can do it.

    And even if, as the Editor suggests, there isn't enough support in her caucus for it, perhaps an enterprising radical PQ backbencher will introduce a bill implementing it anyway...and we can get an idea of how they will go about doing it.

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    1. T. Kondaks,

      Rather than the legality of the proposed rules, my concern is more towards the affected subjects, namely CEGEP students. On their second year, those students are 18 years old. Meaning that they are on the age of majority. They have their voting rights. Now, the government tries to tell them, ADULTS, where they can and can not study? I have a feeling that it may not go well with a portion of them who aspire to go to English universities in or out of Quebec.

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    2. If it's wrong to tell 18+ year olds where they should go to school, it should be just as wrong to tell their tax-paying tutors/legal guardians where they should send their charges to school for the entire decade and a half (or so) before that.

      I don't know that I like your line of reasoning, Troy. It isn't the age of majority that should make or break the argument because that's not where the issue lies.

      The problem isn't just that mommy and daddy might disagree with the nanny state; it's that the nanny state has given itself the power to interfere with a speecific aspect of development of a specific subset of children. THAT's the important factor that will eventually lead to the repeal of the current form our language legislation.

      It used to be considered wrong to read the Bible in a language most people understood -- once upon a time.

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    3. I think she will remove the most unpopular clause on CEGEPsin bill 101 and rather go with modifications to CEGEP funding, which could exterminate them.

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    4. Apparatchik,

      I did not write that the education restriction on the current Bill 101 is not wrong. It is wrong and it is evil. What I mean is that while there is resistance from the subjects of current Bill 101 (parents of primary and secondary school students), the resistance would be multiple times bigger with CEGEP students since the persons responsible for the subjects are they themselves, not their parents.

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  4. Everyone should e-mail their provincial and federal representatives, as I have done, and demand that the NOTWITHSTANDING CLAUSE BE REMOVED FROM THE CONSTITUTION so Quebec is not allowed to use this to push us around any more than it already has. The Quebec Office of the English Language also has a petition for this purpose. Go to their site and sign the petition. We must stop QUEBEC FROM HAVING ANY MORE POWER IN THIS COUNTRY. We have to partition it and let those go that want to go.

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    1. My provincial rep is a Pequiste. What good would that do?

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    2. Yuck - Glad I don't have that problem - Guess you're stuck with going to your Federal Rep and the press - anyone who'll listen. We must not sit back and do nothing anymore or this is going to get worse because they think they have us against a wall. The editor is right - the election campaign was very hateful towards anglos and allos and there are far too many separatists that think we will not fight back against their continuous attacks on us. I myself find that I don't speak to strangers anymore when I'm out walking just in case they want confrontation. I'm going to buy a tin of bear spray and be ready if someone becomes pushy about the fact that I'm not going to speak french to them. I don't know what else I can do except to protect myself and let everyone I can think of know if I run into problems with the separatists.

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    3. "demand that the NOTWITHSTANDING CLAUSE BE REMOVED FROM THE CONSTITUTION"
      Good idea in theory, but do you realy think people want to try to re-open constitutional negotiations? I'd be surprised if that happens in my lifetime (and I'm not that old).

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    4. If enough pressure is put on the Feds and the premiers, why can this not be done without a major problem? Again, if we partition, the new province would sign the constitution as written and we would not have a problem. The ones that vote to stay in a new quebec can write their own stupid, bigoted, citizen restrictive constitution and then live in poverty with it. Out with the seppies!

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    5. Cutie, you forget what a huge thing it was to include that unfortunate clause in the first place. There would have no Charter without it.

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    6. My MP now is supposedly Mike Sullivan (NDP) instead of Stephane Dion (Lib). What good does it make?

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  5. Just figured I'd point out that the Notwithstanding clause doesn't apply to section 23 of the Constitution Act, 1982. It applies only to section 2 and sections 7 through 15.

    I can't believe how many people (lay, politicians, and media) don't actually get this. And yet, there it is -- laid out in section 33 for all to read.

    If you actually read Sections 2 and 7 through 15, you'll realize none of them have to do with language. They deal with perhaps even more fundamental citizen's rights with respect to the legal system (arrest, seizure, proceedings, etc.) and not with language of education. Initially terrifying, but not that much, considering how the provinces often have overlapping human rights-related legislation that amply covers such themes as are covered by the Notwithstanding clause anyway.

    By the way, Cutie, the Notwithstanding clause isn't in there at Quebec's pleasure or insistence alone. Trudeau would have never gotten a majority of the premiers on board back in 1981 with the idea to patriate the Constitution without one in the first place. A federation -- irrespective of the language antics we see in Canada -- will always have turf wars between the two levels of government that constitute it.

    the truth is that our community largely accepted limits placed upon English up to then, a grudgingly acceptable compromise and while most of us didn't like these language laws, the restrictions weren't so onerous that it drove us into the street.
    "Grudgingly acceptable" to "our" community only because an important part of it is made up of pompously gutless (how's that for an oxymoron?) people feeling the linguistic equivalent of White Guilt.

    In addition to the Anglophone community seeing its economic dominance and corresponding political might utterly pulverized and unceremoniously trampled in this province by French-Canadian emancipation, the "conventional wisdom" has been that both sides have accepted a terrible ambiguity about such emancipation whereby the "coming up" of one community must imply the "bringing down" of the other.

    Quebec Anglophones -- then as now -- are just as much to blame as the most strident separatists for having tolerated if not endorsed this cancerous "logic"; the latter actively, and the former tacitly.

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    1. The Anglos and Ethnics bought the story that the situation will be only temporary, and just for a limited period of time sacrifices will have to be made so that the "majority" can regain its confidence, self-respect, its "rightful" place. So many people gritted their teeth and proceeded to wait things out.

      The last election pretty much dispelled any illusions of transience. We're in 2012, and the rhetoric is still the same if not worse, 101 is to be reinforced not rolled back, etc...At this point, I think most people realize that there is only permanence, solidification, crystallization. And the only thing that can change things is a major cultural shift in the majority (impossible in short term, not likely in medium term, possible only in very long term, not in our lifetimes). Only a major political event can speed up a cultural change. In my opinion, that political change can only be QC's separation from Canada accompanied by some economic crisis. For as long as QC is in Canada and is economically helped along the way and occasionally even bailed out (essentially, the price the RoC pays for its territorial continuity), nothing will change any time soon.

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    2. "(impossible in short term, not likely in medium term, possible only in very long term, not in our lifetimes)."

      Notre assimilation s'étendra donc sur période plus longue que prévue...Ouf!Merci adski.

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    3. A cultural change will come about if the ROC decides they've paid enough to this province and have gained not one damn thing except more abuse by the separatists. Time for them to kick us out and then we will have a valid reason to partition this place and let those SRs go to their own area of the woods with their maple syrup and poutine. Bring on another referendum either from Quebec or the ROC - I personally don't care who does it anymore but this will bring things to a head and we can get rid of those that don't want to live in harmony and prosperity along with us. BRING IT ON SEPPIES - WE WANT NO MORE TO DO WITH YOUR ABUSE AND POWER TRIPPING!

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    4. Thank you Apparatchik - As I've said before, I'm no lawyer nor politician, just a Canadian that wants us out of this mess that the separatists have created in this province. I realize the the Notwithstanding Clause is there for the provinces to use WHEN NECESSARY but the only province that abuses it is Quebec so I want it gone or re-written in such a way that the provinces can not use it to take away rights of Canadian citizens. If that takes at least 3 premiers to change, then so be it - perhaps we should start sending some of the information to the premiers as well as the press and our provincial/federal politicians. Let's start e-mailing all our correspondence to them as well - we have to start somewhere. NO MORE POWER TO QUEBEC AND IN FACT RETRACTION OF BILL 101 WOULD BE GREAT ALSO!

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    5. "if the ROC decides they've paid enough to this province"

      Canada doesn't pay because it wants to, it pays because it has to. And it will have to for as long as the country exists in its current shape and form. Only one thing could solve this issue.


      "we will have a valid reason to partition"

      What would you do after this partition? Join the Harper/Mulcair/Justin land? Create a Province of Montreal? Why obscure the process with distractions like partition? Why not just get on with it. The talk of partition is only slowing things down, it steers the debate into yet another direction. The most important thing is to change QC's culture, and that can only be achieved by getting them to grow up and stop goofing off. That can only happen if they Canada and QC seize to be intertwined in politcal arrangements. No amount of negotiations, bilateral talks, constitutional amendments, official bilingualism, or transfer payments will change QC's mentality. Worse, these will only reinforce the mentality, since the behavior essentially gets rewarded (the more assholic the conduct, the more money the feds transfer, the more (illusory) "bilingualism" they introduce, the more money gets wasted in "negotiations" that lead to nowhere)


      "perhaps we should start sending some of the information to the premiers as well as the press and our provincial/federal politicians"

      This would be a total waste of time. It would produce no reaction whatsoever.

      Time to get real.

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    6. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture

      You're talking about definition 1 - arts, language, folklore, literature, etc...
      I'm talking about definition 5 - the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group.

      Assimilation in language is not the point. By cultural change, I don't mean the change of language, I mean the change in behavior and mentality. And I'm not talking about any assimilation, I wouldn't want Quebeckers to become French-speaking clones of Canadians or Americans (which they currently are, despite their belief to the contrary). How about becoming something truly unique, instead of cheap imitations of the Anglos?

      To me, the problem with QC is not with culture as per definition 1 (I couldn't care less what language they speak, write, watch movies in, go about your daily life in). The major problem is with culture as per definition 5. The attitudes inculcated into this population leave a lot to be desired, with anti-social behavior often rewarded and encouraged.

      By being in Canada, this culture only solidifies. Canada provides a. financial cover (so there is no need to grow up), and b. a potent object of hate. Ending this "relationship" would take out the safety net as well as the irritant. The culture could then transform into something better (or worse, you never know how things will go, but at this time I'd be willing to give it a chance).

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    7. "How about becoming something truly unique"

      Comme un canado-polonais Québécois-Montréalais américanophile-bicéphale?

      Non merci!

      Que diriez-vous de changer votre mentalité au lieu de notre société?

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    8. Finally a separatist, adski? Can I suppose that you will be voting Québec Solidaire or Option Nationale at the next election?

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    9. Well adski - I guess you just want us to sit around and suck our thumbs and swallow anything that the PQ throw at us without saying a word like we did when they passed Bill 101 in the first place and I don't agree - I want something done to change the whole political landscape of Quebec and it has to start somewhere. Why wouldn't the premiers of the other provinces be interested and why do you say that? Do you know this and, if so, how? If we do not start some kind of protest movement and/or partition movement, this harassment of anglos and allos will NEVER end. I know Canada doesn't want to pay this money to Quebec and let's support that stance. LET EVERYONE KNOW THAT NOT ALL OF QUEBEC ARE BUMS - IT'S TIME TO STOP FREELOADING OFF THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AND WE SHOULD BE PROUD TO TAKE THAT STANCE. I don't want to assimilate the french separatists, I WANT THEM OUT OF CANADA ON THE LITTLE PIECE OF LAND THAT VOTES TO GO IT ON THEIR OWN. HOW WE GET THERE, I DON'T CARE ANYMORE - I WANT TO BE ABLE TO HOLD MY HEAD UP AGAIN AS AN ANGLO IN THIS COUNTRY. OUT WITH THE SEPPIES AND PEOPLE LIKE JOSEE LEGAULT!

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    10. "Why wouldn't the premiers of the other provinces be interested"

      Before I explain why, note that they have not shown much interest so far, even though they surely are informed about QC (in other words, your letters would not tell them anything they don't know.)

      They would not be interested because a. your problems do not affect them directly (they know about them but don't relate to them, they can't feel them), and b. the attempting to solve your problems is against the interests of the power elites of QC who caused you the problems and thus against the interests of these premiers whose "jobs" depend on QC staying in Canada. Any such attempts of standing up to QC could jeopardize the status and rank of these premiers. By alienating QC, there is a risk of this country falling into pieces and being absorbed by the US. The ruling elites of Canada (including the said premiers) are paralyzed with fear by the prospect of Canada's breakup. For a province of Canada to be absorbed by the US practically means that a new administration is sent over from Washington DC and the old elite falls by the way side. So these premiers are not going to risk their position in order to solve your problems, even though solving your problems would be an ethical thing to do. But ethics is a distant second to power. So counting on these premiers is the last thing you should be doing. Your problems are not on the list of their concerns. Sorry.

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    11. Ah but they would be interested in keeping Canada together if we get a partition party and the borders of our new province include a corridor from NB through Ontario. A partition party would save Canada - just lose some of the back areas of Quebec and perhaps a few Federal districts along the way. I keep reiterating that, when push comes to shove, most francophones know that their livelihood and their way of life depend on a strong Canada with the separatists keeping some areas of Quebec and the Indians keeping their land in Canada along with us. "Your problems are not on the list of their concerns" = baloney - their list of concerns, as you have stated, is in keeping Canada as a unit and a partition party would accomplish this with Quebec in the downward financial spiral as it is currently. They are also tired of the blackmail, threats and pressures continuously put on this country by these separatists and it's well past time to let them go their own way.

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    12. C'est comme une espèce d'attaque de lucidité.

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    13. "Que diriez-vous de changer votre mentalité au lieu de notre société?"

      We need to change YOUR society because you've clearly demonstrated you don't have what it takes to run it competently. You've had your turn and you fucked up.

      Now stop whining...and fall in line.

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    14. "We need to change YOUR society because you've clearly demonstrated you don't have what it takes to run it competently. You've had your turn and you fucked up.

      Now stop whining...and fall in line."

      I'm sorry to say that you are totally wrong when you write about our incompetency. An important fact is that Québec is one of the few "nations" (here, I emphasize the word "nations" because that is what we are...ask Harper) that demonstrated economic growth since 2009 World Crisis. Would you change place with Spain, Portugal or Greece. I believe we can run our nation perfectly, with or without the other provinces.

      And by the way, I don't any see anyone but Anglos "whining" on this blog. The truth is that you're afraid we would be better out of this country. Moreover, I'm sure Anglos in a sovereign Québec would have it easier than they have it right now. You would become a "minoroté visible" and here in Québec we take care of minority groups...ask any ethnic comunity member with all the "accomodements raisonnables"...

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    15. The Oracle

      Une note parfaite et un pouce vers le haut en bonus.

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    16. Sure, Oracle, if by "better off" you mean "completely destitute", yeah, you'd be right. Regardless, you'll never know, because Quebec isn't going to separate.

      Ever.

      And a lot of people are having trouble coming to terms with this, therefore redirect their supposedly righteous anger towards anglos and minorities.

      Prove me wrong, why don't you? That's something I'm really not worried about at all, nor am I "afraid" of it, so please don't make me laugh. It's hard enough as it is to take you even remotely seriously... sovereign nation, my arse.

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    17. Also, I really find it adorable how franco-racist-xenophobes bitch about reasonable accommodation. In Canadian multiculturalism, the Supreme Court decides what is and isn't reasonable in its accommodations, such as honour killings, which are the most extreme example.

      However, in Quebec, we don't have true multiculturalism. Instead, we have "le pluralisme" which puts emphasis on Quebec's culture and "official language" above all others. Any of these reasonable accommodations of which you complain are entirely due to the Quebec government, which is, as you've do doubt noticed, now Pequiste.

      But I digress, technically putting up with your francosupremacist idiocy is reasonable accommodation on behalf of your country, which is Canada, so I suppose we're even.

      'Night!

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    18. "An important fact is that Québec is one of the few "nations" (here, I emphasize the word "nations" because that is what we are...ask Harper) that demonstrated economic growth since 2009 World Crisis."

      No need for a replique to that one - when you figure out what the hell you're talking about, we'll talk. Until then...t'est ben plus beau quand tu parle pas.

      Just say no to Gooney-goo-goo economics...

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    19. ...nation...ask Harper

      It`s interesting (a joke) how the Seppies all hate Harper for the evil conservative he is. Oh how they just despise him. We have heard it many times.

      BUT, when it comes to quoting him about being Quebec being a nation (when in fact it is the Quebecois, not Quebec), oh how Harper is loved and admired for his wisdom and vision!

      It`s just the same old hypocrisy, as usual.

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    20. Darn, I wish I could correct that above.

      BUT, when it comes to quoting him about Quebec being a nation...

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    21. Un peu de repos vous fera le plus grand bien...Hop!Au lit et gros dodo....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

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    22. I go away for a couple of days and the thread gets long enough to strangle a gaggle of geese! Good one, BTW, Resident Evil. I've written time and time again what App wrote here: The minority let it happen, i.e., Bill 1-turned-Bill 101 was not fought. Actually, it should have been fought with all possible resistance when Bill 22 was tabled and passed into law. BTW, this government doesn't simply want to reinforce the Great Charter of Charters, they want to fortify it. They want to go back to the original Bill 1. Goebbels Laurin acquiesced Bill 1 for Bill 101 because the opposition would have likely filibustered the stricter law, and Laurin and his fascist minions especially wanted the law passed before the school year to ensure the number of children attending English schools was butchered ASAP.

      Before my life partner moved in with me and was still living in Laval, there were times store clerks would not deal with her in English (when I was present), she'd get pissed off, and I'd tell her time and time again The [fascist language] laws protect [the Francophones], they DO NOT protect [the minorities], i.e., "The laws protect THEM, they do not protect YOU!" I believe the times I was with her the clerks simply didn't speak English, and of course they're not obliged to; however, one of them was at a store in Decarie Square, a heavily populated area of English speakers.

      Now we're going to go back the the 80s and 90s where hostile customer servants deliberately speak French even if they are capable of speaking English.

      On a slightly different note, I left Quebec coming on 28 years ago because I figured the ability to speak French fluently would come into play...sooner or later. To use adski's colorful term, the overt rhetoric of the PQ going back to 1976 has inculcated the Francophone majority. This inculcation has manifested into the pomposity of the current government and those who have chosen to internalize their doctrine.

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    23. Laurie, I'm not sure the seppies revere Harper for affirming that Quebec is a nation. I think they simply view it in a "It took Nixon to go to China" way : that is that Harper is as un-seppy as people are, and even he agreed that Quebec was a Nation.

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    24. “Nation” is a very fluid term that basically means whatever you want it to mean.

      There are between 3000-5000 nations in the world today (depending on how one chooses to define the term) whereas there are only about 200 nation-states, sovereign states or countries in the world.

      For example, the Cree in Quebec are most definitely a nation. Basically, most anybody can be a nation. However, just imagine the chaos that would ensue if every nation in the world were to become a state!

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    26. Yannick,

      Stephen Harper and his government NEVER say or affirm that Quebec is a nation. It is a misconception usually propagated by separatist groups. What happened was a recognition of Quebecois forming a nation within Canada.

      Quebec, as a political, jurisdictional and territorial entity, is but a province of Canada, no more and no less than the other nine.

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    27. Same difference. Quebec is a territorial entity, inhabited by Québecois. Saying Québecois form a nation without Quebec forming a nation is as silly as insisting that only the French are a nation, not France.

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    28. Not sure I completely buy that one, Yannick.

      Jews were kicked out of Palestine about 2000 years ago and spent the better part of the intervening time period yearning to go back. My general dislike of Zionism aside, I can't gloss over how in the meantime, the descendents of those same "expatriated" Jews formed vibrant diaspora communities (expulsion after expulsion, in many cases) that I don't think anybody in their right mind would dare call "silly".

      ... and they managed to do so before about a third of them "returned" to the Land of Israel.

      The issue is twofold: that the words "Québécois" and "nation" can mean just about anything you want them to mean. Mais que voulez-vous? Ambiguity has and will continue to be the name of this childish game until one side (or some external force) has prevailed.

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  6. As mentioned earlier, the only thing that will make lives for minorities easier is if there is an active movement for them to get the areas they are a majority in out of Quebec. Even a small spark starting the movement will cause it to rise rapidly. The reaction of PQ and all the other Quebec "nationalists" will be extreme but impotent anger. They won't believe that their own sovereignty type movement will be used against them.

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    1. Yes Jarry - we have to get a partition movement party going and, as I've stated before, many francophones will be more than willing to join us and create a new bilingual province whereby their language will be protected but english rights will be a part of our new land. Imagine, we could all live in harmony and not the hate that these separatists have created within their own people. We join the Canada that now exists without the bigotry and we would also have the financial stability that comes along with that. What a step forward! Bring ON A PARTITION PARTY.

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    2. "Many francophones will be more than willing to join us and create a new bilingual province"

      With all due respect, I'll believe it when I see it.

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    3. Yannick, you'd be surprised. Don't forget that 2/3 of Quebecers voted against sovereignist parties. And I know for a fact that some of the people who voted for the PQ were federalists who simply were tired of the Liberals, others voted PQ because they wanted Quebec to have its first female premier, and many other reasons as well...

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    4. Partition is not a viable solution, as it only serves to further segregate the non-francophones within Quebec from the frencophones and the francophones from the rest of North America. I am a Montrealer first, a Quebecoise second and a Canadian third. I can't think about something like that without my heart aching I truly believe that Quebec should become bilingual (since it already is) with concrete non-discriminatory French programs and increased bilingualism efforts across Canada, and within a generation the new bilingualism will expand people's minds and soften their attitudes. That is the only way to keep Canada united. I don't even want to think about what will happen, if the partition politics join the separation politics and language radicals in our politics.

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    5. The ROC has zero interest in becoming bilingual. Come back down to earth.

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  9. I think it's the job of the media to keep running stories on how expanding 101 to 11-50 employee companies would be both a great injustice and an economic suicide.

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    1. You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.

      Just like Trudeau said, the sovereignty movement in Quebec is driven by emotion, not reason. Sovereignty at all costs, whatever the cost. If sovereigntists would stop their mutual mental masturbation for a second in order to look around, they'd see it really isn't bad for them at all.

      They're getting the cushy life via equalisation payments, which are a federal initiative in order to maintain a common standard of living across the country. Quebec gets the biggest cut because they're the (proportionately) poorest province if we compare GDP to population. They're willing to forgo an excellent standard of living (no thanks to themselves) in order to obtain this idea of "freedom". That's not remotely reasonable, that's "WHOOO VIVE LE QUEBEC LIBRE YEAH" purely emotional. And how in the fuck are we not "free"? We're free to discriminate against minorities and shove French down everyone's throats. What more do you want?

      Unfortunately they live in this fantasy dreamland where culture is stagnant and doesn't react to external stimuli at all. Culture changes. Language changes. That's the very nature of culture, and so it is of language.

      Look at English during the 12th century Norman invasions. French words and vocabulary (hell, even names!) were incorporated into the common English the then-subjugated English used because their Norman conquerors preferred to speak French. Despite decades of intermarriage and cultural assimilation, (and a few hundred years later) English is still English, and French is still French.

      Sometimes I wonder if the seppies wouldn't just rather strip naked and go run around in the forest in order to sell furs to France. Wait no, France is too "anglicized". Sell 'em to Algeria, maybe. What the language militants fail to understand is that the British and today the Federals have no desire to "kill off" French. If they had, or did, French would be gone, and we'd all be speaking English. They have this romantic notion that the Patriotes were fighting for language rights or something stupid like that (they weren't, and were actually composed of and led by mixed anglos and francos, and were fighting for better political representation).

      The only reason French still exists in Quebec is because the British did not care a whit what language we spoke here. Three years after the Conquest, then that idea was passed into law. It would have been all to easy to extinguish French, much as it was done in Louisiana. This idea that Anglos are actively trying to eliminate French from Quebec are sadly mistaken. If anyone cared enough to want that, it would be done already.

      Anywho, I wish the last of the die-hard seps would hurry up and die off so that the newer generations of passive-softcore seps can take over and sit on their thumbs for the rest of eternity.

      I do take a certain amount of pleasure in knowing that each time an elderly separatist dies (of natural causes or whatever), they'll die never knowing a Quebec "libre". Think about that for a second, and be vindicated.

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    2. "Anywho, I wish the last of the die-hard seps would hurry up and die off so that the newer generations of passive-softcore seps can take over and sit on their thumbs for the rest of eternity."

      With people like S.R and the angry STM ticketman, I don't think we have much to fear.

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    3. L'agent de la STM a simplement affiché l'essentiel de la loi 101 et on lui tombe dessus comme si c'était un monstre.

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    4. FROM ED BROWN
      The reason French exists in Quebec is because the English did care. The Roman catholic Archbishop here implored Disraeli to help them keep their religion. Disraeli spoke to Queen Victoria who decided they could keep their language and religion. She had to, it was only fair.
      How could she know they would be so treacherous a to turn against the hand that fed them. Even a mad dog knows better than to bite the hand that feeds it, but the seps don't. Ed

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    5. Foremost,

      Great post. Just one comment regarding the 'newer generations of passive-softcore seps'. I live about 40 km from Montreal, and I testify that the next generations are being taught to dislike English, and/or not taught the language at all. For many years I have had children/teenagers coming to my door selling chocolate/asking for cans for refunds etc. I try my best to accomodate but find that when they realize that French is not my forte they freeze, literally. Only 1 child actually switched to English perfectly, perhaps a coincidence that she was also the only ethnic child to come.

      This added to numerous times when at the park or at the daycare I'm being asked by kids why I speak English to my children. Unfortunately most of them not in a curious manner but with a disgusted face, some coming from as young as a 4 year old! One child approached me at the park and told me that she attended an English school, she expressed that my child was cute, but that she did not like English (!!). All this then translated to her friend, they were 9 years old. When I asked her why not, that she was great at it, she had to think hard and concluded that she did not know, but that she did not like it.

      I have found that when I use my mother tongue instead of English the demeanor is quite different. Most of the times no questions, and when I've been asked it has been with 'clean' curiosity, and when enlightened to the fact of where I come, usually I get a smile...

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    6. "L'agent de la STM a simplement affiché l'essentiel de la loi 101 et on lui tombe dessus comme si c'était un monstre."

      No, I came down on him for being a socially-inept, culturally-retarded mouth-breather who'd have NOTHING without his precious little union job.

      Hope he gets fired and lives the rest of his useless days surviving on beans and crackers.

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    7. "Hope he gets fired and lives the rest of his useless days surviving on beans and crackers."

      Vous vous demandez ensuite pourquoi cet honnête homme refuse de vous parler.

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    8. Great post, Foremost. This “Québec Libre” nonsense is maddening because Quebec is already one of the most free places on face of the Earth. Quebec joined Confederation through its own free will and twice has rejected sovereignty in democratic referenda. How many other countries in the world would bend over backwards to placate Quebec the way Canada has?

      For comparison, do you think Corsica or Brittany could even dream of having the opportunity for a referendum on sovereignty from France? Not a chance! Article 1 of the Constitution of France states that “France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic.”

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    9. @True Montrealer : Pretty much. France is a terrible example of inclusion, tolerance, and fair treatment. The less we can be like them, the better.

      @Silent Reader : I'm kind of sad to hear that you speak English to your children rather than your native tongue, myself.

      @Ed Brown : You forget Murray, who was military commander of Quebec after the conquest, who did his best to protect the Canadiens from the depreciation of the newcoming New Englanders. He did it out of pity for them. Not that you would see this in a Québecois history book.

      Eventually the Quebec Act of 1774 enshrined the right of Canadiens to their religion, customs, laws, and culture. Hardly an act of oppression. The Quebecers got the good end of the deal of the Conquest, compared to other inhabitants of New France.

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    10. @Yannick: Fair enough, but do you deny that Quebec is already among the most free places on Earth?

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    11. Don't be sad Yannick,

      I speak my mostly in mother tongue and also in English to them, They also learn French at school, so they are/will be trilingual, and if it is in my power I'll add more languages to their education.

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    12. @Silent Reader : Glad to hear it :) I often hear stories of immigrants not passing on their language to their children and that always gives me a sense of loss. I'm glad that this is not the case.

      @True Montrealer : I thought it was rather apparent that I was agreeing with you. Quebec is one of the free-est places on earth, 101 excluded, and also one of the richest, even if Canada is responsible for it more than anything Quebec did.

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    13. Thumbs up to the whole thread (barring the usual agent provocateur)

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    14. "I'll add more languages to their education."

      N'oubliez surtout pas de leu apprendre le respect (parmi les 12 langues).

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    15. Shame you skipped class when they were teaching it at your school...

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    16. Le respect s'apprend à la maison,à l'école,on le pratique.

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    17. "Just like Trudeau said, the sovereignty movement in Quebec is driven by emotion, not reason. Sovereignty at all costs, whatever the cost. If sovereigntists would stop their mutual mental masturbation for a second in order to look around, they'd see it really isn't bad for them at all."

      Just because it's driven by emotion is irrelevant. All mass movements are driven by emotion. What's relevant is how an "irrational" movement is used by rational people.

      Based on recent history of this country, it appears that the pattern is the following: people are whipped into frenzy over the concept of "independence" ("independence" is a potent slogan as it is easy to assume that administrative independence translates into individual liberty), the prospect of a breakup causes anxiety throughout the country, those who lead QC capitalize on that anxiety without making the final push "independence" which they claim to advocate. So they keep their own people as well as the rest of the country in a limbo, making their own position (that of QC's elite) stronger. In the meantime, the RoC suffers to a certain degree, as well as the "independetistes" who are chasing the carrot that they can never catch. The Roc is chasing the carrot of its own: which is that mystical point at which QC will finally be happy, but at the last minute a new demand ends up popping up. We all remember the moment when Harper finally recognized QC as a nation, and on the very same day Duceppe was on tv saying that now that QC is recognized as a nation, we must be consistent and extend bill 101 to federal institutions in QC...after this, it would be federal institutions in Ottawa, then in ON, then in the RoC... and then something else...

      I think that the main problem is not with the "separatists" or "independentistes" (there is a minor problem with them: as in their xenophobia and intellectual stiffness, but that also applies to many other people). The major problem is with NON-separatists who make use of separation to push for more powers of QC inside the RoC (i.e. making QC the center of the federation, a unique province to which all other provinces cater). The scare of separation is very useful, it can be used to push a language on the rest of the country for example. It's fine to know extra languages, but it's not fine to push one on an entire population. Knowing an extra language should be an individual choice, not a collective effort, bilingualism or tri-ligualism or multilingualism should be a personal goal, not a sacred cow we all pray to (also, those who worship bilingualism forget that language is also an instrument of power.)

      There are 2 solutions to this. One long term: wait for the culture in QC to change so that "independence" ceases to be part of the collective psyche (this isn't coming for at least a couple of generations)...or a political solution (shorter term): give an outlet to the fictitious dream by making it real. When it's real, it won't be possible to use it as a tool for romanticizing the population. "Independence" will go from a beautiful mystical dream to a hard cold reality of the everyday grind. The thing will be over, the euphoria will die down, the passion will dissipate (to be replaced by disillusionment and disappointment), new scapegoats will have to be found (maybe the population will then finally look at the real culprits, who are much closer to home than Ottawa) and the rest of Canada will be able to move on to face all the other problems that have so far been put on the back burner.

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    18. adski +1

      One aspect you missed though - is that Quebec's mystical strive for independence is really misdirected. In reality, the problem is with the Queen and all the symbolism surrounding England, not really Canada.

      And currently, Quebecers are even less interested in a referendum than ever before. Even 30% of those who voted for PQ are against it, needless to talk about the rest. So perhaps, the culture is and has been changing, but the anglophones are too concentrated on tomato sandwich stories to notice it (or, rather, their media chooses for them what they shall concentrate on).

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    19. What is the big deal with "The Queen" - she's strictly a figurehead and everyone with a brain realizes this. What has "The Queen" ever done to Quebec? Good grief - this is such a stale argument. Does Canada want a president rather than a Queen? If so, what good would this do? Become more like America? Why?

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    20. The image based culture is replacing the print based culture, thus making the job of propagandists that much easier. In every population 90% of the population relies on mass media for information. (so you get soundbite over nuance, selective news, irrelevance over significance, quantity over quality). The complexities are made simple, but the simplicity is never neutral.

      In QC though, the francophones constitute the majority and thus the propaganda that acts on them sets the policy. So La Presse or Radio Canada are much more relevant here than The Gazette or the Suburban (these are completely inconsequential despite having an agenda). The propaganda on behalf of the fleur de lis is much more important in QC than the propaganda on behalf the maple leaf or the union jack.

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    21. @True Montrealer - Our Canadian Constitution should have the same clause as France and had it been instituted when the Constitution was initially brought home, we would not be in the same problems as we are today - Quebec still wouldn't have signed the thing but so what? They never did anyway. The rest of the country would be more stable now if that had been part of it.

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    22. "And currently, Quebecers are even less interested in a referendum than ever before. Even 30% of those who voted for PQ are against it, needless to talk about the rest."

      I'd rather they be for the referendum and for the Oui, than against the referendum but for more of bill 101.


      "What has "The Queen" ever done to Quebec?"

      I suppose Harper's push for closer links with the UK is somehow causing tensions with QC.

      This goes to my point. QC's interests and desires are incompatible with the desires and interests of the rest of the country. The outlook on life is too divergent between the QC and Canada.

      Delete
  10. Also, I'd like to take a moment to share this amusing image, in light of last night's tremor;

    http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/c0.0.403.403/p403x403/523314_479271972103992_230084736_n.jpg

    ReplyDelete
  11. FROM ED BROWN
    Folks, I still like Mr.Sauga's idea. Embarrass Harper into action. I have written jack Cafferty who is a large part of the CNN news team. I've asked for time to appear on the show. He is interested because he believes in freedom and hates oppressers. He says after the election he would have time to do something.
    I have sent an email to George Stroumboulopolis in Toronto. george thrives on confrontation. I have asked him to arrange a show with a rep from our group. Myself if no one else is willing and Lisee as Language pitbull from Quebec and the Canadian Minister of languages. Ed Brown

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    Replies
    1. Spencer the Spineless PorcupineWednesday, October 10, 2012 at 9:08:00 PM EDT

      ED,

      If your plans go through you keep us updated. I would like to see either of those segments in the future.

      Delete
    2. FROM ED BROWN
      Spence, I will push these things and a few others I have in mind. The Cafferty crew will most likely call on people who have deep involvement and experience Like Howard Galganov or Jean Charest. They go to the top. I am going after Anderson Cooper who seems less caught up in election fervour. If I have to do Toronto I will but I would prefer someone else as I don't look forward to dragging my ageing aching body to Toronto. Some one like Mr.Sauga who obviously has the intelligence needed to debate them on live TV. As troubled as our Montreal is I would still rather be here than Toronto. Ed

      Delete
    3. Oh, Ed Brown... why would we get Mr Harper involved, if he speaks French like Marois speaks English. He never won and Quebec, doesn't represent Quebec They are truly the peak of the mountain, as far as escalation on this goes. So now, we go towards reconciliation, another exodus or an acute language conflict.

      At the root of these problems is always a system that doesn't represent us and leaders that serve the few. The language divide is largely the system's fault. Harper gets 60% of parlement, 100% of power with 30% of Canadian vote. Marois gets 32% of Quebec vote, and would have been in majority with 33%. Do you see the problem?

      We need proportional mixed representation system to have a balance in gov. Then, the leaders will stop bickering and start cooperating.
      http://www.fairvote.ca/en/fair-voting-systems

      Delete
    4. Here we go again - speaking french is never good enough - it has to be perfect french. It's funny how, when I listen to my french Canadian friends speaking english, I don't care if they have an accent or can't pronounce words perfectly, they are trying their best to communicate and I love them for it. What is the matter with people speaking french with an accent and/or mispronouncing some words? For heaven's sake, I don't get it!

      Delete
    5. A terrible French kind of shows a lack of commitment to learning it, and therefore a lack of importance being put on my voice.

      Harper has an accent and speaks French like a robot, but it is a good French nonetheless. At our last provincial elections, most of the Party leaders were unable to speak French coherently, and one really had to pity the poor Green party leader who was soldiering it on with only the most minimal skills in French.

      Delete
    6. I don't agree - some people are just not as good as others in learning a second language and the separatists do not allow for this in their arguments. Everyone is not the same but this is never appreciated by the powers that be in quebec.

      Delete
    7. Ed - if you're fortunate enough to get some air time by any TV station and/or radio show, please keep us informed as I want to make sure I don't miss any of it. Thanks

      Delete
    8. nataliawalsh,

      What are you writing about? Stephen Harper speaks French many times better than Pauline Marois speaks English.

      Delete
  12. As a responsible citizen, I followed the election and the parties’ platforms quite closely. And there was squabbling, posturing, and threatening, about language, sovereignty, but my understanding was – It was a battle for my city, Montreal. It was all about “divide and conquer”. Most people were making their minds up on one or two key agenda points, or voting “strategically” against another party. Discussion on real issues, like healthcare, debt, education reform became impossible. And all of a sudden people I knew no longer seemed to like each other, in fact they seemed to fearful or angry at the “other”. It made me feel sick. I felt like, personally, I had to do something about politics of division, that if I just tolerated this situation without saying anything I would never forgive myself. This time, I hope people don’t flee the province, I hope they fight for their rights and those of their children. I understand that there are deep scars left by history on both sides, but I think the time has come for reconciliation. People in Montreal lived happily together, until they were reminded by media and politicians that they should not.

    So, we must stop obeying. Both sides need to control it's radical elements and ideologies. It takes two to tango.

    We live in a bilingual city. Montreal's whole identity and economy relies on it's multiculturalism.
    Public transportation needs to be bilingual. All services dealing with clientele as well. Schools, radio and TV stations need to be allowed bilingualism. And only then people will start communicating directly and understanding each other, understanding how the French needs to be promoted, without discriminating or oppressing. Not only will there be no tensions, there will be such harmony, that it will inspire the rest of Canada to be TRULY bilingual.

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  13. “ And it is inevitable that Pauline moves to strengthen Bill 101, perhaps sacrificing the controversial proposal to apply Bill 101 to cegeps.”

    Here, I could not agree more. It is where we must concentrate our efforts. And in preventing the new one, we will need to demand the revision of the old one, the one that has grown on, as you said. The focus should be promoting and encouraging French, not imposing it, especially not in homes and private businesses. But in order to be heard and taken seriously, the Anglophones will need to demonstrate their knowledge, understanding and respect of “les enjeux francophones”.

    Just want to add a few criticisms to the article itself, although I found it highly well written, it is also highly biased.

    The PLQ is not better than PQ, it is only better for the English community. Overall, PLQ and Harper only exacerbate the situation by constantly adding oil into the fire and keep people divided.

    Civil disobedience is not a threat to democracy. It is the reason democracy exists. And voting once each 4 years for parties that juggle power from one to another is HARDLY a democracy. The situation we live in is a consequence of the system we live by.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm surprised no one has commented yet. Your argument is very astute and intelligent, Natalia. I believe that this may be a better approach than Partition, which I believe to be a futile venture.

      Delete
    2. Sorry, nataliawalsh, but you're living in the land of Polyanna, and we're WAAAAAYYYY past your ideal vision! I fully agree with you that civil disobedience is not a threat to democracy and it is indeed the reason democracy exists; however, all this civil disobedience should have taken place in the mid-1970s, and it barely did.

      I've written this before, so for some of our readers, this WILL be déjà vu all over again! The older generations TALKED a good fight. There were strong opinions on radio, a few spirited editorials, especially from the late Sophie Wallock of the Suburban, and that fizzled out rather quickly. In the meantime, a good ¼ million or more Anglophones left Quebec, yours truly included.

      Over a decade after I left, and about two decades too late, Howard Galganov spent a fortune of personal time, energy and money fighting. He occasionally rallied the troops at shopping centres on the West Island demanding bilingual signs when the law finally made allowances (Bill 86 in the mid-90s). He's still fighting today, but so far the battle has not gone well. He lost in the Ontario provincial court and the appellate court. He has applied to be heard at the Supreme Court. His fight is over Section 2b of the Constitution, and if the notwithstanding clause applies to Section 2 as has been suggested above, it will be money down a black hole.

      In addition, his radio career was constantly confronted not only by the French media, but by the English media as well. What good has that accomplished? Between my parents' generations lack of will to fight prior to my departure and then English speaking detractors going against Galganov, my decision to leave Quebec was strongly fortified. I predicted the Francophone population would not be happy with mediocre French and their societal majority would turn against the minorities. I admit it took longer to manifest than I thought it would, and a few years ago I thought there was potential for some sort of détente, but that has now gone out with the tide. The next question is will the tide get stronger, or will it ebb again?

      Delete
    3. FROM ED BROWN
      Natalia, Your vision of the situation is very nice but rather naive. We all know what should be.
      What are the radical elements we must control on the English side? -How do you see the Liberals not being better than the Parti Quebecois? The PQ started all this trouble. The PLQ brought in language bills to try to please them but it was never enough. Jean Charest walked aa fine line trying to keep the french happy. If he did anything to support English there would have been trouble. The PLQ kept the economy in check, the PQ is going crazy economicaly. This is better.
      How do you see Harper adding oil to the fire, we can't get the man to open his mouth. Ed

      Delete
    4. Yannick, thank you.

      Mr. Sauga - the English did not fight. They run - twice. All it did is further remove legitimacy from the English language and negatively affect those, who stayed. The Suburban is a rag. So is The Metropolitain and most of The Gazette. The English media does not help, it serves to further radicalize the English community. Wake up, so to speak :) I will soon blog about my experiences with those medias, stay tuned.

      Could you explain to me how this clause works? I struggled to understand, how the charter of rights can be just broken like that, but there was just too much legal lingo...

      Ed Brown
      Thanks, but perhaps it is a young and ambitious fully trilingual allophone that it takes to fix this old squabble ;). For you - troubles started with PQ and their language laws. For them - it started with forced acquisition of their land. And they still don't feel Canadian, mostly due to the symbolic crown, in fact. It seems like both sides are so deeply divided, that they fail to see the Other Sides.

      This conflict cannot be resolved by fighting and violence. It can only be resolved by understanding and reconciliation. But there might be some fighting on the way, granted, but it should never be blind rage.

      Delete
    5. natalia: Which clause do you want to know about? Is any English media in Quebec not a rag to you? The Gazette is a humongous disappointment, I'll grant you that, but c'mon! The Suburban is a community paper and I never heard of the Metropolitan.

      What the hell is this "forced acquisition of their land"? Whose land? Forced upon whom by whom? You tend to jump around in your writing. Please slow down and be more explicit.

      Delete
    6. It seems that she is refering to the Conquest.

      Ironically, the Canadiens had much more freedom and self-rule under British rule than under French rule, which was very authoritarian. Friction was clearly on the rise between Canadiens and French when the Conquest happened. I wonder how long it would have taken for a liberation war against France to happen had it not been for it.

      Delete
    7. Bourassa was a Liberal, let's not forget that. Bill 22 and all that crap.

      Delete
  14. FROM ED BROWN
    I think it's just as well that frenck kids don't go to english college and universities. We've seen how the french support their schools. Editor has given us the rates of endowment funds for Mc Gill and U. of M. Who needs them? Ed

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  15. Canadian francophones outside Quebec have lower unemployment rates, higher salaries and generated $130 billion in economic activity in 2006, a new Conference Board of Canada report says.

    “It breaks a myth that I’ve heard for 20 years that francophones outside Quebec are struggling in the labour market,” said Mario Lefebvre, Director of the Centre for Municipal Studies at the Conference Board of Canada.

    The success of francophones is largely due to the fact they are a scarce resource in other provinces, he said. “In communities with a limited number of French speakers you’re a scarce resource. If you’re a limited resource, you will be welcome wherever you go.”

    Francophones doing better than average Canadians


    Poor, poor, mistreated and downtrodden francophones…

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It depends on the field. I can't say that it's any advantage in sciences.

      Delete
    2. I hope you're not implying that you're worse off than the average Canadian... or treated more poorly somehow...

      Delete
    3. You seem quite willing to take any omission of mine as an admission of the contrary, True Montrealer.

      Allow me to expand. In the sciences, one must publish or perish. And all the important journals are in English. Therefore skills in any other language than English are entirely superfluous. I cannot for the life of me think of any use for them, except for Japanese and Chinese whose scientific contributions have been skyrocketing in the past few years.

      That is not to say that French, or any other language, is a detriment in the sciences. Other than that a native French speaker will have a harder time acquiring the writing skills in English than an English speaker would, but I doubt it has an effect on the salaries or hireability of francophones as a whole in the long run.

      Delete
    4. I'm glad to hear it, Yannick... so, in other words, it boils down once again to francophones having centuries-old grievances that we can do nothing about...

      Delete
    5. What does that have to do with the article?!

      Delete
    6. Some deluded people like S.R (in 2012!!!), continue to harp about (excuse the expression) francophones being the White Niggers of America

      Delete
    7. I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that there was a wage gap between francophones and anglophones in today's Canada.

      Delete
    8. So what the freakin' frack is the problem???

      Delete
    9. That you're implying that someone is saying that. You're fighting a strawman.

      Delete
    10. OK so there's no wage gap.

      Delete
    11. Grievances like South Stormont in Ontario soon get settled respectfully and yet seppies continue to argue how awful it is to be part of Canada. It's baffling.

      Delete
    12. Do you agree that anyone in his right mind today can think of himself as being a "White Nigger of America"?

      Delete
    13. Personally, that's what I find baffling about his argument.

      Delete
    14. Wage gaps, blah blah blah...! Francophones outside Quebec can very often get good jobs in government or where communication across Canada is required. Finding proficiently bilingual people outside Quebec, New Brunswick and Eastern Ontario is a challenge. Fluency is that much tougher.

      The notation of research papers being in English is correct. I read in the distant past that 80% of research papers coming from France are written in English. It's either do that or risk a lot of unread research reports. Maybe someday another language will dominate, but right now, it's English. Live with it, Quebec!

      Nobody is trying to take French out of Quebec, or anywhere else for that matter. If communities, families or political jurisdictions want to speak French, it will not wither and die.

      Do bear in mind that Hebrew was an unspoken language for 2000 years, and now Israel has resurrected it. The spoken language has had to be modernized after 2000 years of dormancy, a strictly written scriptural language, but lo and behold, it's not dead! Hebrew is back because THE SOCIETY wanted it that way. This is the exact reason French will not go away because the vast majority of Quebec society WANTS it that way. Israel never got rid of other languages, but they did make Hebrew the official language. Still lots of Arabic, English and French spoken there. Shalom!

      Delete
    15. Ugh. Bilingual people have higher employment rates and earn more. There are many openings for them across Canada. Do-oh! -.-

      Please people, stop taking a piece of perfectly logical data and presenting under the angle that serves to increase negativity towards the French. Thank you

      Delete
    16. Mr. Sauga,

      I find the history of the resurection of hebrew fascinating. (I think that I first read about it in Nadeau and Barlow LA Grande Aventure de la Langue Française...)

      Indeed, hebrew is back because the society wanted it. And what did society do? They used their government to turn their will into action.

      How did the state of Israël achieve its goal? Did they legislate on language when everybody knows that you can't legislate language (or culture, etc)? Did they engage themselves in a crazy and vain socio-engineering adventure? Did they not have other "vraies affaires" to take care of, defense for instance?

      I know, I know, they did it without depriving people of their basic human right to speak whatever language they wish, they did it without closing themselves to other languages, bla, bla, bla. But I can't help seeing similarities in both situations and I can't help thinking that what you find horrible in one situation you find quite fine in the other. Just pointing out what you would call a double standard I guess.

      Delete
    17. That is not to say that French, or any other language, is a detriment in the sciences. Other than that a native French speaker will have a harder time acquiring the writing skills in English than an English speaker would, but I doubt it has an effect on the salaries or hireability of francophones as a whole in the long run.

      I have to pick you up on that one, Yannick. Most of the scientific papers in the world are written by people who haven't got English as a first language. Heck, most British and American Universities have got more foreign researchers than native ones! And by foreign I mean from non-anglophone countries. The Dynamics department at my Alma Mater in England was staffed entirely by Russians (with a rather thick accent to boot), my Thermofluids lecturers were one Dutch and the other Sri-Lankan, and I personally worked in a research group where, out of 12 researchers, 6 were English, 4 Italians, one Malaysian and one Palestinian. And then there are the universities all over the world that are not based in anglophone countries where all the staff in non-anglophone. English is used because it has become a Lingua Franca, but being a native English speaker is no more an advantage in scientific research than being able to flare your nostrils, for example.

      Delete
    18. In fact, in my experience, most English mother-tongue researchers are piss-poor at writing in English.

      Delete
    19. The QP, :)))

      While it is true, what you are saying, there are still advantages of being a native English speaker. Yes, the employees are non-native, but look to whom most of the wealth belongs. It is not a coincidence.

      Delete
    20. TQP : All I can say is that some people who come into the field will have an additional hurdle than would a native English speaker, I was quick to point out that it would make no difference in the end.

      Delete
    21. M. Patrice,

      "I know, I know, they did it without depriving people of their basic human right to speak whatever language they wish, they did it without closing themselves to other languages, bla, bla, bla. But I can't help seeing similarities in both situations and I can't help thinking that what you find horrible in one situation you find quite fine in the other."

      I'm not surprised at your sarcasm and that you would minimize and downplay the removal of the linguistic freedoms of minorities within Quebec

      There is a critical difference between Israel and Quebec. Israel made Hebrew its official language but didn't legally restrict or ban any other languages. If the Israelis were petty like the Quebecois they would restrict the Arabic spoken by the Palestinians and Arab-Israelis living within their borders. After all, they are surrounded by a sea of Arabs.

      Delete
    22. Here is what I was able to read about the revival of Hebrew in Israel :

      In 1909, the first Hebrew city, Tel Aviv, was established. In its streets and in cafes, Hebrew was already widely spoken. The entire administration of the city was carried out in Hebrew, and new olim or those not yet speaking Hebrew were forced to speak in Hebrew. Street signs and public announcements were written in Hebrew. Such was the prominence of Hebrew in Tel Aviv that in 1913 one writer announced that "Yiddish is more treif than pork. To speak it a person needs great courage."
      [...]
      The pinnacle of Hebrew's development in this period came in 1913, when the so-called "War of the Languages" (מלחמת השפות) occurred: At that time, the Company for Aiding German Jews wished to establish an institution of higher education for engineering and insisted it should be instructed in German. The whole of the Yishuv rose up against this standpoint and forced the group to admit defeat, leading to the founding of Israel's foremost institute of technology, the Technion. This incident is seen as a watershed marking the transformation of Hebrew into the official language of the Yishuv.


      Full freedom to Arabic spoken by Palestinians huh? I'm sure the Palestinians living within Israel (and not in the illegally occupied territories) have full access to education, governmental services, hospitals, universities, etc... in Arabic, right?

      I can talk a little bit about governmental services. Apparently a series of supreme court decisions has been forcing the Israeli government to provide services and translations in Arabic ever since the 1990's (!) even though Arabs form a staggering 20% of Israel's population (excluding Palestine & the Gaza Strip).

      The more I read about it, the more the situation seems comparable to Quebec's or the ROC's, except that there is actual active discrimination against Arabs in Israel, though there is no equivalent of 101 and road signeage is trilingual Hebrew/Arabic/English nowadays.

      Delete
    23. What? Israel & Quebec? wow... O.o

      To the French people, that think that French is on the way to extinction - please name another language this happened to, I am really curious, as well as the statistics you are basing your opinion on.

      Et écoutez ceci, je l'ai trouvé super :)
      http://www.radioego.com/ego/listen/11854

      Delete
    24. Yannick,

      So you're saying there's no active discrimination against Anglos in Quebec? It's like you've been reading this blog for months wearing a blindfold.

      Arabic is an official language in Israel, which is more than can be said for English in Quebec. Six percent of Israeli civil servants are Arabs, which is too low but certainly higher than the number of Anglos (and Allos) working in the Quebec civil service.

      Delete
    25. I think you're both kind of missing the point.

      In 1909, [...] Hebrew was already widely spoken [...] new olim or those not yet speaking Hebrew were forced to speak in Hebrew. Street signs and public announcements were written in Hebrew. Such was the prominence of Hebrew in Tel Aviv that in 1913 one writer announced that "Yiddish is more treif than pork. To speak it a person needs great courage."

      Phony nation building in the form of aggressive cultural, linguistic, and behavioral repression. Israel is still suffering from the echoes of this sort of thinking over a century after the first (let's call them) "settlers" returned.

      Delete
  16. I agree that we are well past the point of making any part of quebec bilingual because the separatists will not accept that - it's their way or no way - fully french and no other language is wanted or appreciated. We have to accept that the only way out of this is to partition the province and let them go their own way. Let's get on with a partition party and end this misery for all concerned. There is no reasoning with these people and their hate shines each time you hear one of them speak. That is our only hope of getting on with any kind of normal life in Canada. It will save us all money and possible an all out civil war before very long.

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    Replies
    1. I do not know why anglophones can't grasp the difference between a separatist/independent and a franco-supremascist. Perhaps they don't have francophone friends... A person can very well be against the crown, wanting it's own country AND wanting bilingual schools ect.

      Partition is an aggressive and silly tactic. First, you have to wait until they actually go for a referendum (which they wont). And then you have to have a real war for land. It's very 1800's of you to push forward that idea.

      There is PLENTY of reasoning with "these" people. Have you actually tried, outside of the WEB, that is? And how is your French, Cutie?

      Delete
    2. Care to expand on why you think partition is "aggressive"? Why would there be a war for land? I originally proposed Partition as a means to either keep like-minded people together (bilingual-federalists on one side, unilingual francophone-independentists on the other) and, failing that, as a means to stall the naked land-grab being practiced by the dictatorship of the majority. (Also as a way to demonstrate that if they can play that game, so can everyone else). I still maintain that, if I was a francophone, I'd rather have Hydro-Quebec than the whole or part of Montreal. Even as an allophone I like Quebec city a damn sight more than Montreal, its people maybe a bit less. So, tell me, where's the war? Is it because someone has to give up the pacifier? I don't envisage Partition to entail anything more than a few changed roadsigns and a small legislative assembly: what do you envisage? The air-lifting of the whole island of Montreal? Oh, and, by the way, the new partitioned province would have to be Bi-lingual, not anglophone.

      It seems to me that a lot of people who disparage the idea of partitioning Montreal/West Quebec (draw your boundaries as you see fit) as a waste of time from their own pet project, fail to see that there is no negotiation without muscle, and if things with anti-english legislation in Quebec have got so extreme to start getting out of hand it's because there is nothing to negotiate against, no muscle, no threat, no consequences. I'd rather see a political movement demanding partition than street-battles and lone gunmen providing that muscle. And, no, appeals to the good nature of the Franco-supremacists won't work as they face no coercion. By the same token I find it perfectly acceptable that no services are offered in English in, say, Levis as I find it acceptable that no services are offered in French in Calgary. The roles are reversed, but the realities are very similar. On the other hand, Montreal has been bilingual for over two centuries, certain parts of it overwhelmingly so: it's a different reality from Calgary or Levis, and it's a reality that should be acknowledged and embraced rather than suppressed and fought.

      But, again: why is this violent?

      Delete
    3. I certainly do understand the difference between francophone Canadians and separatists. When I talk about "these" people, I am referring to the separatists not our francophone friends and I have plenty of francophone friends. If you had been following this blog for awhile, you would see that I am proposing that there are 75 federal electoral districts, we hold referendums in each of these with a clear question, clear majority, following the supreme court decision and let those areas go that want to go. If this is democratic, why would there be civil war? This would be legal and democratic and a way out of this mess for those of us that want to move forward with our lives inside Canada. I do not know one separatist who wants out of Canada and is willing to have bilingual schools, etc. What would be the point of leaving Canada? NB is bilingual and I'm proposing that our new province be bilingual. And, no, I do not know how to speak french but that does not make me any less of a person who has the same rights as anyone else in this country. My children are bilingual and wasn't that the goal of accepting Bill 101 without protest, in the first place? And why do we have to wait for the separatists to hold a referendum? What if the rest of Canada has a referendum and decides to vote us out? They are pretty fed up with our socialist lifestyle and giving nothing back but grief and continual complaints. I'm also fed up with the highest taxes in North America and never having one cent to bank at the end of the fiscal year. I'm tired of paying for $7.00 a day daycare for people earning $100,000 a year and others claiming to have a nervous breakdown because they don't want to work anymore - and I know at least 3 that are doing this. And "these" people (separatists) are not the least interested in having anything to do with any one they consider not pure-laine francophone so, no, there is not PLENTY of reasoning with them. Tell me the name of one separatist that is the least bit interested in a bilingual country. If they are out there, how come they don't have a party representing this position?

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    4. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    5. And the prize for the most irrelevant comment goes to... S.R.

      tadah!

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    6. Editor, since you've removed S.R.'s comment, I'm quite happy for you to remove my reply.

      Delete
    7. Natalia walsh,

      IT doesn't matter what the difference between the independentistes and franco supremecists is because at the moment they are allied together and both support bill 101. Partition may seem aggressive but so is sovereignty and bill 101. Partition is about getting the minorities out of the tyranny of the majority groups you mentioned above. Why should Cutie have to learn french to communicate those who support bill 101? She lives in the Pontiac which is an anglo majority area, does that mean that the francophones there should be in the same manner be forced to know english? Your full of hypocritical and delusional statements. Problem like most pro bill 101 and independistes types you don't even realize the hypocrisy and delusion. Therefore it does make sense for the minorities to ask for partition to create a new province. The minorities aren't asking for a bill 101 type law in inverse after the partition but the Quebec nationalistes always want to increase restrictions on the use of English and other languages. Like I mentioned before a partition should make the Quebec nationalistes happy, they would get a province that is as French as Ontario is English. There would be no significant minority populations as well.

      Delete
    8. "...is about getting the minorities out of the tyranny of the majority groups you mentioned above."

      Vous voyez?Nous ne sommes pas si différents après tout.

      Delete
  17. Please join my Facebook page to try to find a solution that would finally bring back harmony to my beloved city. Thank you
    https://www.facebook.com/MontrealConcordiaSalus

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    Replies
    1. FROM ED BROWN
      How do we find your facebook page when we don't even know who you are? Your link goes to a google page with many names. Ed

      Delete
  18. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    Replies
    1. The question is not taboo, it's irrelevant when there are two million Montrealers who can and do speak English, as a first or second language. It's even less relevant considering that the likes of you will display hostility towards anyone speaking French with the wrong accent, and that includes, apparently, Acadian and Parisian-French accent. It may well be that it’s a defensive attitude given that the grief one gets for speaking the wrong kind of French is the same as one gets for speaking English. In for a penny, in for a pound, I think it’s called, and with a lot less effort.

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    2. Je me demandais simplement si madame caps lock discutait parfois "in French" avec ses amis "canadiens-français".

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    3. I'm sure, if they are really friends, they'll discuss in a language in which they can all be comfortable. Normally it's the more knowledgeable person that makes the greater accommodation, you know, like civil people do.

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    4. "it's the more knowledgeable person that makes the greater accommodation"

      Accomodation (compromis) dans le sens de "partition du territoire"?

      Delete
    5. If you want to discuss Partition, post on the relevant thread. Here, I am just highlighting how a conversation is carried out among people with different language abilities, if there is no hidden agenda.

      Delete
  19. Marie Malavoy: moins d'anglais, plus d'histoire

    http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/actualites/education/201210/10/01-4582115-marie-malavoy-moins-danglais-plus-dhistoire.php

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    1. "(Québec) Le gouvernement Marois veut revoir l'enseignement de l'anglais au primaire en mettant un frein sur l'implantation du programme intensif en sixième année d'ici 2015 et en abolissant les cours obligatoires dès la première année. C'est du moins les deux souhaits formulés hier par la nouvelle ministre de l'Éducation, Marie Malavoy, qui a également plaidé pour la révision du programme d'histoire au secondaire afin que la question nationale y occupe une place de choix."

      Ils veulent enseigner la question Nationale en période d'histoire?! N'est-ce pas là une question de politique dont les écoles devraient s'abstenir de prendre côté?

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    2. De façon intéressante, presque tous les tweets sont négatifs envers cette nouvelle, qu'ils proviennent d'anglophones ou de francophones.

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    3. OMG - Here we go with the bullshit from these damn PQs. Let's change history to brainwash the children in school to learn to hate everyone from Grade one on that is not french. Damn - we have to get out of this province to have even a half a chance to teach our children proper history and to raise them normally. PARTITION PARTY AND LET'S GET OUT OF THIS PLACE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. THESE PEOPLE ARE SICK AND IT'S GETTING WORSE EACH TIME THEY OPEN THEIR MOUTHS.

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    4. I find it hilariously ignorant/hypocritical of Malavoy and the PQ that they are "...très critique par rapport à l'idée d'introduire une langue étrangère alors que l'on commence à maîtriser les concepts, la grammaire, la syntaxe et le vocabulaire de sa langue maternelle" given that every single child in Quebec Anglophone schools (and probably a million more Anglophone children outside Quebec enrolled in French immersion) have been learning French starting in Grade 1 or earlier for at least the past 30 years. Somehow they don't seem to have experienced any problems mastering English. Given that even the PQ grudgingly acknowledge that a knowledge of English is probably necessary, I'd like to know when they think it should be acquired, since it clearly isn't early in education, or at the end of primary school/early in high school or in CEGEP/university. I also love her dismissal of English as a "langue étrangère," given that there's been a substantial Anglophone presence in Quebec for over two centuries now. I hope someone takes Lisée to task for how this attitude from his party flies in the face of their official "Anglos are a valued part of the fabric of Quebec b.s."

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    5. Yannick,

      Back in high school in 1990s there was already politics in the geography and history books we had and I was in English school. Specifically mentioned that bill 101 was needed to prevent Montreal from becoming anglophone by the year 2000.

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    6. FROM ED BROWN
      People who say the English never tried to learn French are liars. When I was in High School from 1948 to 1952 we had a full lesson of French every day of the week. It was the only subject that we had every day. The English school board felt the importance of french. If people that went to English schools cannot talk French today it has to be because they were not paying attention. I worked in English all my life the only French I have is from High school and it serves me admirably. Ed

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    7. Spencer the Spineless PorcupineThursday, October 11, 2012 at 5:58:00 PM EDT

      I don't know if things have changed now but my experience with high school was completely different. They barely taught us any French and most of the teachers were English who would say things like "I'm learning this with you guys." I knew some others in different schools who had similar issues. But the majority who graduated from my high school had to teach themselves French once they got into the would since our high school program was a complete joke. Although this might have just been my school which was utterly horrible.

      Unfortunately since I don't know the cases of other school I can't speak to them directly but this is one reason why I've always thought elementary and high school should be bilingual despite the school board. Why not have all kids graduate fully bilingual?

      I'm curious though as to what areas these places are that are graduating unilingual francophones? I recall my time at Dawson and I met many Francophones who spoke perfect English.

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    8. I am actively talking up Partition to whomever I meet. Reactions? Surprisingly POSITIVE. Even among 100% franco-francos.

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    9. Spencer, I had the opposite experience, where my English was terrible by the time I finished high school... I had to immerse in Dawson. I think everyone would benefit for bilingual school options.

      But some seem to prefer further segregation :(

      Malavoy needs to go back to school, read up on bilingual cognitive development -.-
      http://www.infobebes.com/Bebe/Eveil/Stades-du-developpement/Le-langage-de-Bebe/L-eveil-au-langage/Bebe-bilingue#

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    10. I'm all for teaching English earlier, more frequently, etc... but if by bilingual school you mean throwing everyone in the same place, I'm not sure it's a good idea... for the exact same reason that Ed's grandson was removed from his "French Immersion" kindergarden and placed into an English-only school, where he still managed to learn good French and English.

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  20. FROM ED BROWN
    Natalia sounds like a little girl with a dream or as Mr.Sauga puts it, a Pollyanist. Natalia, don't make statements that are onviously not true. There is NO reasoning with these people, we have tried for fourty years. Also separatists and supremists are none and the same. Pauline Marois is an example of both. Cutie is right. Ed

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    1. ED, I beg to differ. I have separatist friends, and I understand them very well, even when I do not agree.
      I guess you can only hope, that me and my youthful idealism accomplish what your generation failed to fight for.

      Separatists and French-supremacists are not the same. Many of you seem to not see that and simply keep insulting half of this province and then wonder - hey, how come they are not listening, these snob a-holes! *double facepalm*

      But the truth is, wanting your own country, even if simply emotionally, or perhaps because one does not wish to pledge allegiance to Her Majesty - is a very understandable feeling for me. On the other hand, when someone behaves or passes into law ideology, that serves to show superiority of his language and his ethnic kind over other - wel, then... then you can't call it anything else than discrimination and racism.

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  21. Editor - somethings wrong - no exchange for pages and pages = thank you for checking this out

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    1. Sorry Ed - my school did not teach us anything much in french and what we did learn was not enough to ever converse with a francophone. I wish I had been that fortunate but it just wasn't there in my school.

      To everyone out there: Tomorrow morning I'm sending an e-mail to everyone that I can think of to object to the new school history teachings and I'm going to strongly object to it. PM Harper, Pauline Marois, Graham Fraser, and any news media that I can think of. PLEASE, ALL OF YOU DO THE SAME - THE MORE WE OBJECT TO THIS TYPE OF THING, THE MORE THE SEPARATISTS WILL REALIZE THAT WE'VE HAD ENOUGH! If anyone wishes me to publish what I write on the blog, I will provide it.

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    2. Cutie003Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:17:00 PM EDT

      Editor - somethings wrong - no exchange for pages and pages = thank you for checking this out


      what are you talking about?

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    3. Editor,

      Apparently on his last post Ed Brown hit the "Enter" button one too many times, leaving a wide gap between his post and the one after.

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    4. I believe she is referring t the fact that after Mr Brown's post from 5:28, there is a lot of 'empty' space.

      "Anonymous Thursday, October 11, 2012 5:28:00 PM EDT
      FROM ED BROWN
      iN 1991 my four year old grandson went to french immersion Pre K. He returned the folowing year for Kindergarten and by Christmas the school had decided he was retarded because he had learned nothing in two years. We found out that the French were puttng their children in to learn English. The whole class was french so the teacher forged ahead in french only. The following year we enrolled him in regular English class. Thr kid the others were calling anglais stupid outdistanced all of them. All the way through high school and cegep he never got a mark under 90. Today he is a Social Worker with
      Batshaw dealing with problem English kids. His french is impeccable. Ed"

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    5. Sorry, I read the comments through an editor module and not as you do. I did not see the wide gap.
      Now That TS has reposted the original comment, I've removed the long post.

      ED, what the heck?
      Did you spill coffee on the RETURN key?

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  22. I thought worth sharing:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/more-quebec-history-less-foreign-language/article4607918/

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