Wednesday, February 1, 2012

Forced English Immersion in Grade 6 a Bad Idea

When I was a wee boy of six, my mother decided it would be grand if I took some piano lessons, for reasons that I still can't fathom.

I think it's a great idea for parents to expose children to all sorts of skills at an early age, be it sports like golf, an instrument like piano or learning experiences in science or literature. Who knows what hidden talent might be exposed, like a buried treasure waiting to be discovered.

I could have been revealed as possessing a hidden talent, a budding child prodigy like Tiger Woods who started playing golf at two years old and who broke eighty at age eight. I might have been a Mozart who composed and gave concerts from the age of five or a Bobby Fisher, who became a chess grandmaster at 13. (oooh--let's forget that  last one!)

Alas, I was none of the above and loathed the piano lessons, realizing almost immediately that I had zero talent or love for the avocation.
After two years of intensive study my mother gave up, liberating me from the heavy burden of attempting to master a skill, that I did not want to acquire.

It took me less than a year to forget everything I learned and today, I couldn't tell you where Middle C lies on the keyboard.

WHICH brings me to Premier Charest who announced that Francophone students in Grade Six are to be exposed to an entire semester taught in English.  Parents are largely supportive, expressing an overwhelming desire to see their children become bilingual.

But I'm doubtful the project will have a lasting effect, and just like me and my piano lessons, it's likely a colossal waste of time, effort and money.
For the vast majority of students who will be forced into a traumatic social experiment, it is the equivalent of throwing a non-swimmer into the pool without any thought, in the misguided belief that they will learn to swim.

Of course the usual suspects are against the idea of intensive English in Grade six, especially the teachers who dislike the idea for a variety of reasons, claiming among other things, that for many students, the project is above their abilities.
I'm not sure I disagree.

What I find troubling is that the project seems to have been embarked upon without much thought or study, as if the Premier and eduction Minister cooked up the idea all by themselves, because it seemed like a good idea, one that would be popular with the voters.

But why Grade six?

Many of we Anglos have sent our kids to French daycare, preschool or kindergarten in an attempt to get them on the road to bilingualism sooner than later.

Young children, exposed to a second language do remarkably well and learn much faster than older kids or adults.
Studies have indicated this very fact.

"The critical period hypothosis  was first proposed by Montreal neurologist Wilder Penfield and co-author Lamar Roberts in a 1959 paper Speech and Brain Mechanisms, and was popularized by Eric Lenneberg in 1967 with Biological Foundations of Language."

According to the theory, the earlier a child is exposed to a second language, the faster they learn. After puberty the ability to acquire a second language nosedives. Hmm....

The choice of Grade six for this grand social experiment is explained by the fear that francophone children who learn English too successfully when young, are in danger of  hurting their French and so the teaching of English intensely is delayed to grade six, when the benefits are diminished.

Those of us who are bilingual, truly bilingual, can testify that learning a second language is not as easy as one intensive semester.
It takes years of study and practice, there is no easy way around it.

I'm all for learning English (or French for Anglophones) but this plan has almost zero chance of success, the idea that the moribund education department could pull off the project logistically,  especially the problem of finding the hundreds of qualified English teachers necessary, is beyond credulity.
The school boards will have to line up buses at the Fairview Shopping Mall and kidnap Anglos, shipping them off the Saguenay and parts beyond.  

The reality is that for two-thirds to three-quarters of Francophone Quebecers, English plays no role in their lives. They remain as disconnectd to English, as British Columbians are to French.

For most of these children who are to be exposed to an English-only curriculum in Grade six, they may as well be teaching Chinese or Klingon. The program has the same dubious chance of success as forcing everyone to take a semester of piano lessons.
Without a piano at home and a desire to continue to practice and learn over the many succeeding years, the chance of success is nil.

The truth that parents don't want to face is that in order for children to become proficient in the language of Shakespeare, they themselves must get involved.

There is no magic bullet or short cut, even if parents and the government dream that there is.

Parents shouldn't depend on the schools to do the work for them, they can provide a steady diet of English and they can start at a much earlier age than grade six.
More francophone children have learned English through video games and a few hours of English television than through all the efforts by educators in elementary schools.

Those parents who are not interested should remain free to make their own decisions, just as British Columbians can choose a second language for their children, or not.

I hate to say it and I know I'll be attacked for this, but for many Quebecers who spend their whole lives in a French environment, learning elementary English is all that's necessary, so that when they travel, they can survive.

How about some state-sponsored high school courses in GLOBISH.
For many, it is the imperfect, but reasonable answer.



135 comments:

  1. I started watching the beginning of the Daily Show with Jon Steward, a show on American Political Satire. They were featuring the Republican Florida primaries for the next candidate to run agsinst Obummer in November. At showtime, the winner was not yet determined. Finally, it was Romney who whipped Gingrich's philandering ass.

    Actually, the Daily Show featured a clip from a speech Gingrich made in 2007. Gingrich felt Hispanics should all be put into English immerson and move from speaking the "language of the ghetto" (i.e., Spanish) to the "language of prosperity", i.e., English).

    Gee, on the surface, you'd think that's racist, but look at the difference in social status between Hispanics who have poor mastry of English vs those who have fluency in English (or near fluency).

    Is Gingrich wrong? Many's the time this very blog described Sagueneens as ignormauses, not to mention those from Lac-St-Jean and the other outreaches of Quebec where English has little or no bearing.

    Hérouxville opened a $5 million can of worms where two well-overpaid buddies of Premier John James Charest, namely Messrs. Bouchard, Lucien's brother, snd some McGill intellect named Charles Taylor went around Quebec with their well-overpaid minions listening to one rabidly vitriolic racist anti-English rant after another after another from one hicktown after another after another.

    I guess they just don't want to become prosperous. Even Robert Campeau (yes, he was a Franco Ontarian as was Paul Desmarais) learned English because he wanted to become a big shot corporate raider, not on Bay St., but on Wall St. As we know, Robert Campeau was thrown off the board of the company he founded, and in complete disgrace left for Austria with his tail between his legs never to be heard from again. He had three children who sued their father at least one time each, sometimes more.

    Yup, Robert Campeau was another Francophone flop, but he realized he couldn't address Wall St., or even Bay St. for that matter, en la langue officiel du Québec. It never would have flied, and he never would have even had the brief sniff he had at business fame.

    Whether you like him, or you despise him, Newt Gingrich isn't wrong. C'est dommage, Francophonie, mais c'est la vie. What is the Francophonie made up of anyway? Two G7 nations, Canada and France, and then dozens of African dictatorships, Middle Eastern dictatorships, economies with limited opportunity like Mauritius (a nice little country from what I've seen of it) and train wrecks like Haiti.

    How many English-speaking nations are dictatorships? Australia? New Zealand? America? Canada? Bermuda? England? Scotland? The Isle of Man? Need I go on| I can only think of one--Zimbabwe, were their hundred trillion dollar bill isn't worth one square of Charmin ass wipe paper! A model British democracy turned into worthless raw sewage by an African dictator.

    Personally, I think Gnewt Gingrich is a philandering weasel, but when the man is right, he's right.

    Oh, yes, today's topic? John James Charest, your fearless premier, is pulling another of his half-assed stunts to on the one hand expose Francophone children to English, but for about the maximum length of time as a total solar eclipse (about 7 minutes). You're right, Editor, this scheme of Charest's doesn't have a snowball's chance in South Beach, but who's noticing?

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    1. Actually, here is the portal link to what the weasel said:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rF694NzjPU

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    2. You're right, Mr. Sauga. All these fools who cling to their third world languages are lunatics.

      If can't beat them, join 'em, uh ? Learn the language of your masters, and they shall reward you. Just like your ancestors did, n'est-ce pas mon cher Monsieur ?

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    3. It has been studied an discovered worldwide that, prior to the age of about ten, children can learn as many as seven languages without being mixed up. The world has adopted measures to afford children the right of multilingual learning. Even the worst tyrannical regimes have allowed this, yet the only place that has banned its people to officially learn two or more languages, especially before the age of 10, is the Canadian PROVINCE of Quebec!!!

      This disgusting practice is part of the game plan to stop opposing views of a population because the separatists know that the French Media in this province is almost all separatist or separatist leaning. How else can we explain that more than 98% of those who voted yes to separation were unilingual French and those who voted no spoke more than one language? In this province, if you speak French and want to verify the news, you need a second language. Any second language!

      In Quebec, if you were born French, you have no right of a multilingual education. Only those of other nationalities that had prior English education have the right to English bilingual schooling and they must proof such right with a document provided to them by the provincial government! Can you recall another society that tattooed its undesirable citizens?

      Note that the children of the separatist leaders are multilingual yet those same leaders prevent the rest of Quebecers access to other languages! The PQ , BQ, ADQ, and now the CAQ are considered by many to be part of a hateful treasonous racist cult that has stained the world’s best country for far too long! It’s so sad to see that John James Charest is being marinated in the separatists’ Kool-Aid.

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    4. @ Damien,

      "You're right, Mr. Sauga. All these fools who cling to their third world languages are lunatics."

      You misquote Mr. Sauga. He was referring to the many Third World countries where French is spoken.

      "If can't beat them, join 'em, uh ? Learn the language of your masters, and they shall reward you."

      In those Third World countries, French WAS the language of the masters.

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    5. Vive la Province Canadienne de Montréal !!

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  2. Off topic guys...found a good joke about Marine Le Pen ( there are some among us who like her :) )

    "Quelle différence y a-t-il entre Marine Le Pen est un yaourt ? Au bout d'un certain temps, le yaourt développe une forme de culture."

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    1. Hahahahhaha!HooooHo!.....Hahhahahha!...please stop!!!..Hahahahohohoho!OMG LMAO x 1000

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  3. As much as I agree that starting to teach children English only in Grade 6 will diminish their chances of actually learning or maintaining it, I for one am at least pleased that the effort is being made in the first place. Who knows where it will go from there? The Gov't could then say that children can start in grade 5 and then 4 and then who knows. To slam the effort is 100% wrong !!!

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    1. Pauline La Pas Fine wants to point out something: No, actually they should start as early as grade 1 or 2, that way, the chances of having poor English speaking skills when they hit adulthood, will be diminished by a long shot.

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    2. FACTS:

      1- ESL classes do not begin in grade 6 in Québec. When I was a kid, it started in grade 4, and I believe it now starts in grade 1.

      2- Grade 6 English immersion has been around for a long time, and it is a fairly popular option among francophones. The point here is to make grade 6 English immersion mandatory.

      3- Those who go through grade 6 immersion are no better at English than those who don't. All I had were regular ESL classes from grade 4 to Cégep, and I beat most of my fellow francophones with my English skills.

      4- No amount of language classes or immersion will ever make someone fluent in a second or third language. It's an effort and time investment thing. As Editor said, you'll become bilingual if you watch TV in the second language, read books in that language, and most importantly, actively seek opportunities to communicate with native speakers (exactly what I'm doing here, notice ?).

      Most people will never be bilingual because most do not have the patience or the determination to invest the necessary effort. People want easy solutions like grade 6 immersion. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

      Mandatory English immersion in grade 6 is costly, hardly feasible, and USELESS. That's why I'm againt it.

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  4. http://www.lesaffaires.com/secteurs-d-activite/general/pendant-que-metro-refuse-quebecor-songe-a-franciser-son-nom/540348

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    1. You know... it amazes me how much free time people actually have. They have it soooo good and just want to pi** it all away.

      Delete
  5. It has been studied an discovered worldwide that, prior to the age of about ten, children can learn as many as seven languages without being mixed up. The world has adopted measures to afford children the right of multilingual learning. Even the worst tyrannical regimes have allowed this, yet the only place that has banned its people to officially learn two or more languages, especially before the age of 10, is the Canadian PROVINCE of Quebec!!!

    This disgusting practice is part of the game plan to stop opposing views of a population because the separatists know that the French Media in this province is almost all separatist or separatist leaning. How else can we explain that more than 98% of those who voted yes to separation were unilingual French and those who voted no spoke more than one language? In this province, if you speak French and want to verify the news, you need a second language. Any second language!

    In Quebec, if you were born French, you have no right to a multilingual education. Only those of other nationalities that had prior English education have the right to English bilingual schooling and they must proof such right with a document provided to them by the provincial government! Can you recall another society that tattooed its undesirable citizens?

    Note that the children of the separatist leaders are multilingual yet those same leaders prevent the rest of Quebecers access to other languages! The PQ , BQ, ADQ, and now the CAQ are considered by many to be part of a hateful treasonous racist cult that has stained the world’s best country for far too long! It’s so sad to see that John James Charest is being marinated in the separatists’ Kool-Aid.

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    1. Vive la Province Canadienne de Montréal !!

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  6. C'est quoi la langue seconde des canayens?Pas besoin de banir le français au canada car l'évitement se fait naturellement.

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    1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    2. The only place in Canada (and one of the few places in the world) where other languages are banned is in Quebec.

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    3. "The only place in Canada..."

      C'est pourquoi on dit de nous que nos sommes une société distincte.Nous n'avons jamais affirmer que les anglophones étaient inférieurs,au contraire,nous sommes différents,point à la ligne.

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    4. "C'est pourquoi on dit de nous que nos sommes une société distincte.Nous n'avons jamais affirmer que les anglophones étaient inférieurs,au contraire,nous sommes différents,point à la ligne."

      yeah but the way you have shown your so called "distinction" so far doesn't convince me in any way that you guys consider anglophones as "equal ones". Not to mention, you have used everything in your power to wipe out every single trace of British presence in this province just for your own selfish benefits and also, for the purpose of dressing it as a pure-blooded french poodle...now having said that, I do agree that you people might be different from the rest of us but that doesn't entitle you whatsoever to plot any form of ethnical cleansing and act upon it. it's wrong and evil.

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    5. But Quebec is not a distinct society. Face it: French people think you speak with an American accent, suburban Montreal is no different from suburban Houston and suburban Quebec City is no different from suburban Boston. Your national dish is the English fish and chips with some cheese thrown in just to make it look different, you still have McDonald's and KFC serving the same shit as in the US, even if you changed the name of some signs and some meals (and definitely not the salads and the 36 different varieties of coffee you get in McDonald's France), you have the same trash TV as the Yanks south of the border with your very own Rush Limbaugh, only yours speaks French (badly). You're just as likely to go on a witch-hunt as your cousins in Alabama, and you're run by an old-boys network just like all of the English speaking world. You don't even have French cars on your roads: even if Renault, Peugeot and Citroen make about five million of them every year. Your most famous natives are Celine Dion, William Shatner, Conrad Black and Jacques Villeneuve, and they can all speak English (when they are not anglos themselves) - hell, Villeneuve even speaks fluent Italian on top of that! Language is all you've got to tell yourselves apart from your hated anglos. A bit like the Welsh, but at least they have the intelligence of learning to speak English and only revert to Welsh when some Englishman's around... Some of them even learn French!

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    6. Vive la Province Canadienne de Montréal !!

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  7. "In Quebec, if you were born French, you have no right to a multilingual education."

    Vous pouvez apprendre 100 langues si vous voulez mais pas avec l'argent des contribuables.

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    1. You do know that, even in the tax-averse United States, public schools teach foreign languages, do you? And you're arguing against the teaching of one of your NATIONAL languages in your schools? What are you going to argue next? That teaching maths is a luxury? Pathetic.

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  8. Editor: “For the vast majority of students who will be forced into a traumatic social experiment, it is the equivalent of throwing a non-swimmer into the pool without any thought, in the misguided belief that they will learn to swim.”

    Children in Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, and a few other countries go through an excellent English immersion program and grow up to be perfectly fluent in English without suffering any trauma. In fact, the index of happiness is the highest in the Scandinavian countries. And here, we’re talking about countries that don’t even border any English-speaking nations. They just recognize the value of the language and aim to churn out citizens that will be true world citizens, comfortable and at easy anywhere in the world. I am happy that my country of origin (Poland) is now following the Swedish model of English education.

    And here we are in Quebec, surrounded by a sea of English, where half the population is unable to carry a conversation in English and many more speak it at a basic level. For me, this is an indictment of this educational system, which does its people tremendous harm.

    --

    Editor: “The reality is that for two-thirds to three-quarters of Francophone Quebecers, English plays no role in their lives. They remain as disconnectd to English, as British Columbians are to French.”

    Sorry Editor, but this is false. Quebeckers in the most remote areas are aware that not knowing English is considered a handicap (while not knowing French in BC, for example, is a non-issue and doesn't bother anyone). So even if these people don’t need English in their daily lives, they do suffer inside (notice all the pro-French militant groups springing up in the north). These people are a bit like the poor in the US who get their noses rubbed in everyday just by watching American television that showcases rich and successful people and promotes that lifestyle, while stigmatizing and critiquing the poor. Along the same lines, Francos who don’t speak English carry a trauma (they won't admit it, but it's obvious)), and that’s what Charest wants to correct. This might be a sign that Quebec ruling elites finally realized that they gain nothing by ruling over a stigmatized population. So this is a step in the right direction. Every Quebecois should be fluent in English, given the times and especially the place. Otherwise, this will be the society of malcontents for many more years.

    Another thing is practicality. More and more companies located up north actually require people to speak English these days, especially in the managerial positions. So knowing English is not just a way to correct a social stigma. Lately, it’s also a way to get people to work.

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    1. Halifax dit: Effectivement pour les pays scandinaves et la Hollande. Vous remarquerez en y allant que la vie de tous les jours et le travail (grande majorité) s'effectue dans la langue nationale et la langue commune du territoire: pas en anglais !! La langue commune au Québec, c'est le français. Il y a 8 provinces où vous pouvez vivre et travailler uniquement en anglais (pas le Nouveau-Brunswick, désolé ! :(), alors lâchez-nous la grappe avec l'imposition de l'anglais dans la vie quotidienne. Personne n'est contre l'apprentissage de l'anglais mais faut pas virer idiot. Vous êtes mieux de vous instruire et d'apprendre l'anglais sur le tas, qu'être un illettré parlant anglais. Pour vivre au Canada anglais, il y a des gens peu instruits et un peu cons comme dans toutes les sociétés. L'anglais n'est pas un passeport contre la pauvreté et l'inculture... :)

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    2. and you halifax, should just stop imposing french on the English and allo communities for the relief of your own ongoing insecurity and delusional paranoia.

      and besides, no we are not going to leave this province. We here to stay and thus,we'll even grow in an even bigger number just to piss cancerous seppies like you off so you can finally step down and give up your lost cause.

      keep in mind your days are numbered

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    3. L'anglais n'est pas un passeport contre la pauvreté et l'inculture... :)

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    4. well, in some cases your maybe right, but if you are looking forward to thrive in north america(even in Quebec), learning the English language will definitely be an MUST, thus increasing your chances to succeed in life by a long stretch compared to only being a mindless uni-lingual serparatist francophone like you, that will likely suffer the consequences of getting 98% of career-opportunities shut right in his/her face, then be forced to work at a gas station at a wage of 10,00$ an hour in a remote rural area in Quebec like chibougamou or matane, or even Montreal-Est.

      if this is what you are aiming, then go ahead and feel free to do so. I don't care, it will just leave more room for us to succeed, that's all... e

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    5. "...then be forced to work at a gas station at a wage of 10,00$"

      Ça prend des immigrants pour combler ces postes sinon qui va vous vendre votre essence,café,bière,lottos et cigarettes?

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  9. "Children in Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland"

    Dommage qu'ils n'aient pas 350 000 000 d'anglophones comme voisins.

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    1. See Seppie, this is where we differ 100%. For you, the fact that we're drowning in a sea of English is a reason to limit English. For me, it's the opposite - it's a reason to make sure everyone, without a single exception, speaks it. So one of us got it backwards and we both know that it's you.

      You logic is a result of the twisted propaganda that your elites have been throwing at you for decades now, and while they were preaching from the pulpit, they themselves were getting their degrees in English universities, and sending their kids to English schools (they never practiced what they preached). They were living it up en anglais, while you were moping around begrudging les maudites Anglais.

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    3. By the same logics, anglophones in Quebec shouldn't bother learning French as they are surrounded by people speaking French. Don't think, feeeeeeeeeel!

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    4. They should. And those who are really surrounded by French do (these days, most anglos and most allos). Have you ever seen a mob of anglos or allos shouting: "En anglais, en anglais"? I've seen one that was shouting "en francais, en francais". So those who could shout "en anglais, en anglais" don't. They either learn French or move out. But those who could shout "en francais, en francais" do just that. So they don't learn English to fit in the environment in which they obviously feel uncomfortable. They prefer to spend their lives trying to shape the environment to conform to them.

      The point is to adapt to reality, not to try to change it. This goes for everyone, but especially the Quebecois. At this point in time, the Quebecois should do more of adapting and less of social engineering. The 60's are over.

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    5. adski,

      I was actually agreeing with you...

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    6. How racist are you if you renounce your French nationality to create the Québécois race?

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    7. "The point is to adapt to reality, not to try to change it"

      La loi 101 est une réalité.Adaptez-vous!

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    8. Bill 101 is a fascist law that should be eliminated.

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    9. Suppose the Germans asked you to respect the Nuremberg Laws back in 1935. After all, these laws were a reality, even though they classified people according to race and favored ethnic Germans economically and politically. What about the absolutely real Apartheid laws in South Africa, widely accepted by their beneficiaries – the Afrikaans, but not so much by others? (The beautiful thing about such laws is that history eventually sorts them out.)

      I reject 101, but I would also reject any law that disadvantaged the francophones. It’s just the way I am. I look down on entitlement, that of others, and that of mine. You on the other hand would reject the laws that disadvantage you, but you’re fine with laws that help you out at the expense of others. As a beneficiary of an affirmative action scheme, you want it to be endless. I don’t want it to be endless because this particular scheme (or should I say “scam”) does not work in my interest. But more importantly, I would also be reluctant to accept any scheme that favors me, because then I would feel like a parasite. I certainly wouldn’t defend it tooth and nail if my scheme lasted for over 3 decades. I would be embarrassed by the fact that it infantilized my interest group for so long.

      But ok. If from my opposition to the language laws of Quebec you want to make the following argument: he opposes the reality of this, then I reserve the right to fight the reality of that, then ok. We can cut a deal. We will accept the things the other does not accept. But who will complain about the lack of "social cohesion"? Your politicians, be it B.Landry, L.Harel, P.Marois, or L.Beudoin, or P.Curzi (I heard them all talking about it). I won’t complain about it, because under the present order, social cohesion is simply impossible.

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    10. 101 ou 401

      "The point is to adapt to reality, not to try to change it"

      La loi 101 est une réalité.Adaptez-vous!

      La Constitution Canadienne est une réalité.Adaptez-vous!
      (Not bad for a foreigner who does not speak French, eh?)

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    11. Halifax dit: Oui, et la Constitution canadienne est un pacte entre les provinces et non une imposition forcée comme c'est le cas en ce moment !

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    12. Halifax, a pact written in law is a law, and the thing with laws is that they are legally binding. It must be a pleasure doing business with you... well, it would be if I were your lawyer!

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    13. Vive la Province Canadienne de Montréal !!

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    14. The Quebec Partition: La liberté des peuples n'est pas soumise à la loi. C'est au-dessus de ça. Regardez les libertés individuelles consenties par la Charte québécoise des droits et libertés ou la Charte canadienne des droits et libertés, ces instruments juridiques sont au-dessus des lois. Justement, j'ai étudié en droit... :) Un contrat signé sous la contrainte n'est pas valable. Vous imaginez lorsqu'on a pas signé... illégitime..

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    15. La liberté des peuples n'est pas soumise à la loi.

      So you agree with the United Nations Charter of Human Rights, since there has to be a document somewhere that states this inanity (when the reality is that no one is born with any rights, but they are acquired and passed on by agreement to follow a common code of conduct)... so why are you ignoring their finding of Quebec being in violation of Human Rights? Or alternatively, why do you back out of your responsibility to meet your commitment to a Constitution you undersigned?

      Un contrat signé sous la contrainte n'est pas valable.

      And who forced you? And if it's not valid, why are you not already independent from Canada? Surely if the Constitution doesn't apply to you you already are independent. What? There is a majority against it? A majority of Quebeckers that voted democratically to remain Canadian and honour their obligations? Maybe a majority that's also in favour of the Constitution? Surely such a majority means that that Consitution is not "sous la contrainte", but agreed by the only entity that matters: the People.

      You're a lawyer alright: ambulance chaser or divorce?

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  10. Vous savez quoi adski,je suis de plus en plus en faveur d'une anglicisation radicale du Québec et de la disparition de ma culture mais qu'on le fasse rapidement,d'un coup sec!Je déteste les longues agonies à la façon Néo-Brunswickoise.

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    1. C'est assez colon merci comme réflexion...

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  11. I am for taking your culture off the never-ending life support, I'm for throwing it in the pool to see if it can swim. If it can, great (I have a feeling it would). If it can't, too bad. If it's the case that it can't, then maybe in a couple of generations your grandchildren will be joking about Joual the way Scots joke about Gaelic today ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFubsxHTApw ...fast forward to 4:29, and pay attention to what he says at 4:35-4:38)

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    1. Nous connaissons votre agenda maintenant.

      Comme on dit en français: The cat jump out the bag :)

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    2. Adski,

      What do you think of the Canadian Content Act?

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    3. Je ne croyais pas attendre une chose pareille de mon vivant.Un mépris total et sans aucune retenue pour notre culture...C'est quelque chose.Espérons maintenant que adski n'élève pas ces enfants dans un tel climat de haine envers les Québécois.

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    4. Je crois que le conflit Francos-anglo va dégénéré un de ces jours.

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    5. well with the way it has been conducted for over the last 40 years, you cannot really blame others for looking down upon your culture.

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    6. "What do you think of the Canadian Content Act?"

      Protectionist laws like this cannot be good if they have no expiry date, or become sacred cows not to be criticized. I'm not familiar with the Content Act but if it's like bill 101 in nature (no end date, and no criticism allowed), then I'm against it.

      In general, I don't mind protectionist/affirmative action schemes for as long as there is a clear expiry date on them. A never-ending protectionist policy is just just a privilege-extracting ploy of one interest group over another (in this case, Canadian artists who can't compete with foreign artists).

      I can speak more affirmatively on bill 101. 34 years. No end in sight. A sacred cow if there ever was one. End of story.

      Delete
  12. "Je ne croyais pas attendre une chose pareille de mon vivant.Un mépris total et sans aucune retenue pour notre culture...C'est quelque chose.Espérons maintenant que adski n'élève pas ces enfants dans un tel climat de haine envers les Québécois."

    A very typical response... Did you miss the part where he said: "I have a feeling it (french culture) would (survive)"?
    Where is the disrespect for anyone's culture in anything he said? He's saying he thinks the Québécois culture and language is strong enough to survive on its own, and personally I agree. You don't?

    "Nous n'avons jamais affirmer que les anglophones étaient inférieurs,au contraire,nous sommes différents,point à la ligne."

    Am I the only one who thinks this comment just sounds racist?


    As for more english in french schools, no matter how it's done, I'm all for it. The current system might not be the best, but it's a good start, especially in this backwards province. Editor, I really think you underestimate the internet generation, who are in contact with people from everywhere around the world on a daily basis, and this from a very young age. I think they are very aware of the need for a common language for communication, much more than any generation before them, and more english in schools will go along well with that.

    It's funny that they want to do it in the 6th grade, and the teachers are complaining that the rest of the curriculum will be neglected. Doing it earlier helps solve that problem, but I guess nobody's thought of that yet.

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  13. I suppose my own view isn't too far off from being a blend of Editor and adski's. I don't think one single half-year exercise is the most fruitful way to impart a lasting functional ability in any language, just as I don't believe that eating one gigantic meal once a month is a worthy attempt at good nutrition.

    That francophone parents who are clamoring for genuine teaching of English in French schools - in sixth, or in any grade -- is indeed encouraging, but I still think the better thing to do is expose children to better second-language teaching all year round and throughout the entire curriculum. The wider argument here really ought to be about the quality of the teaching being dispensed and actual learning done. Based on my own circle of friends and acquaintances, I would say that in its current form, the quality is about as variable as a school's postal code -- at least around Montreal -- and regardless of whether a French or English school. Some schools (French as well as English, and both public and private) are doing an excellent job, while many others (unfortunately) do a lamentable job. I've visited, attended, or assessed the results firsthand.

    I suppose the purpose of this project is either to further alienate francophone kids from English by thoroughly traumatizing everyone involved, or by leaving the parents dissatisfied with the pilot project that they demand improvements on better educating their children in a second language.

    And then there's the argument in favor of this thing called "Globish", a linguistic bonsai which I find as intriguing as I do appalling. It remains to be seen whether English's supposedly legendary ability to absorb vocabulary can be matched by its ability to shed it, and whether the resulting creature would eventually evolve into a rich and full language of its own (much as English did), or whether future generations can prove that a Korean and a Somali can really have a heart-to-heart with only 1500 words between them.

    My guess is Globish would need enriching as its speakers would begin to variously demand, expect, or require more from it as an interchange language. The more things change...

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    1. > I suppose my own view isn't too far off from being a blend of Editor and adski's.
      Add Stumpy to that list too.

      On a not-so-partisan level, I have many pure laine acquaintances whose baby boomer parents were/are complete separatists but who themselves are much less so, if at all. These boomers' children are very often aware of their own need to develop and hone their English skills, and increased exposure to such media tools is supposedly helping them somewhat.

      And just like me, they haven't "forgotten" or "dropped" French. They proudly remain francophone -- as well we should -- without being threatened or feeling disrespected by apostrophes and English brand names.

      Delete
    2. To Apparatchik;
      A very excellent contribution to the debate....

      Delete
  14. Did you miss the part where he said:

    "If it's the case that it can't, then maybe in a couple of generations your grandchildren will be joking about Joual the way Scots joke about Gaelic today..."

    Dixit adski

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  15. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  16. Seriously, what is Quebecois culture? Is it just speaking French? I have a friend named John and one named Jean and they are pretty much the same except one speaks English and the other French.

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    Replies
    1. No Mr. Marco, Québec is a national litterature, a traditionnal music, many painters, a traditionnal dish. Lisez, écoutez, contemplez et goûtez au lieu de faire la démonstration de votre ignorance...

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    2. Ouch!Est-ce que ça fait mal monsieur Marco?

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  17. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  18. As an Allophone born here in Quebec who's mother younger is neither of the official languages I basically learned how to speak English and French by watching TV Ontario and French cartoons on TV in the 1970's between the ages of 3-5. I don't have any language hang ups and have done quite well. Those ages are optimal ages for soaking in new languages as far as I'm concerned.

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    1. Err, mother tounge (damn you autocorrect).

      Delete
    2. Vous avez dit propagande canayenne?

      http://blogues.cyberpresse.ca/lagace/2012/02/02/quel-est-le-mot-deja-ah-oui-%C2%AB-propagande-%C2%BB/

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    3. Vous savez ce que vous êtes un Canadien?

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    4. "Vous savez ce que vous êtes un Cana****?"

      Cher Éditeur.

      Je croyais que les insultes et les coups bas étaient dorénavant interdits sur ce blogue.

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    5. Stating the facts is neither an insult nor a low blow. I'm sure you have a passport or a driving license to prove it. Whether you want to become something else is a different matter. But then, again, the majority of les Quebequois doesn't seem too bothered about being Canadian, judging by the outcome of the various referendums, so maybe there should be a Quebec Partition where Levis and Saguenay say ta-ra to Canada to live their monoglottal dream and the sensible people can finally get on with their lives in the bilingual, Canadian rest of Quebec.

      Bring it on!

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    6. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    7. So he misspelled Quebecois...big deal.

      If you travel anywhere in the world and refer to yourself as a Canadian, or even a French-Canadian, most people will know what you mean. If you refer to yourself as a Quebecois, most foreigners will just look at you with a blank stare. The majority of people elsewhere don't know what the hell Quebec is.

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    8. "The majority of people elsewhere don't know what the hell Quebec is."

      Très relatif à vos destinations.Pour ceux qui ne savent pas c'est quoi le Québec,ils ont un sérieux problème.Notre territoire contient 6 x la France.De plus,je vous ferai remarquer que ce sont les Québécois qui ont été les véritables premiers canadiens...De là,le nom de notre équipe de hockey Nationale.Voilà!Vous allez vous coucher moins idiots ce soir :)

      Delete
    9. "So he misspelled Quebecois...big deal"

      Désolé de vous dire que c'est très évocateur...Incroyable!

      Delete
    10. Lord Dorchester, Can you please retake renee leveswue blvd and put it back in your name, the way it was once.

      Delete
    11. I have a better spelling in Swedish and a better pronunciation in French, but they are neck and neck as my third language, therefore I apologise (yes, spelled with an "s", the proper way!) profusely for misspelling a word in a language I barely speak and have spent even less time writing (indeed, no time at all writing until now). I expect that my French spelling will improve over time, with practice and more correspondence with my ex-roommates in Quimper and Marseille.
      As I pointed out in the past: I haven't got a bone with the language (much as I need improving on that front: three languages are better than two), it's the politics that's rotten, as those who got incensed at my error highlighted. How about, next time, just saying "Voulez-vous dire Québécois?" or something to that effect? I'll take your point and make amends, without challenging you to pronounce "Loughborough", "Leicester" and "Norwich" just for my own amusement...

      By the way, the territory of Quebec is just under 3 times the size of France, and the population about two thirds of the population of Belgium (which has a larger Francophone population...). Just thought I'd say it.

      Delete
    12. Vive la Province Canadienne de Montréal !!

      Delete
    13. @ The Quebec PartitionFeb 3, 2012 01:33 AM

      "the population about two thirds of the population of Belgium (which has a larger Francophone population...)."

      Wrong.
      Québec = 8 million
      Belgium = 11 million
      But Belgium is only 40% French-speaking (Brussels and Wallonia, Québec is more populous than those combined), the majority speaks Dutch and other languages whereas Québec is more than 82% French.
      So Québec has a much larger Francophone population than Belgium, in both numbers (millions more people) and percentage (again, Francophones are a minority in Belgium).
      Perhaps you got it confused with Canada as a whole vs Belgium (25% French vs 40%)?
      25% of 34 million (Canada) is still more than 40% of 11 million.

      Delete
    14. Belgian French: 6.3 million

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French

      French mother-tongue Quebeckers: 5.877 million

      http://www.city-data.com/canada/Quebec-language.html

      (Nobody talked about percentages)

      Delete
    15. "Belgian French: 6.3 million"

      That's because it includes second-language speakers, such as immigrants and Flemish people who learned it. If that were only native speakers, it would mean that Belgium is a majority French country which of course it's not, it has a Flemish (Dutch) majority.

      Consider this:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish
      Native speakers 6.1 million

      6.3 + 6.1 = 12.4 million people in Belgium? And that's not even counting all the allophones (plenty of immigrants in that country) yet according to Wikipedia there are only 11 million people in Belgium.

      French in Belgium is pretty much spoken natively only in Brussels and the Wallonia region. Together, they only account for 4.5 million people and again, that includes many immigrants with other mother tongues.
      And you can find similar stats in plenty of sources, not just Wikipedia, including books.

      city-data.com? I checked www.statcan.gc.ca (government site) and it says that in Québec 6 027 735 speak French + 52 325 speak both French and English natively. 6 892 230 native French speakers in Canada when including other provinces.

      So I was right, Belgium doesn't have a larger French-speaking population. If you're going to count everybody that knows the French language as a "French population" then Québec still wins because when including anglophones and allophones that can speak it, it's higher than Belgium's 6.3 million.
      In fact there are more native Québec French speakers than all the native French speakers in Europe outside of France combined, such as Belgium, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Monaco.

      Delete
    16. I just bothered checking the source for Wikipedia's Belgian French article that says "Native speakers total speakers
      6.3 million (Belgium)"
      So which is it, native speakers or total speakers? Not exactly the same thing.
      Anyway, it links to this file:
      http://20mars.francophonie.org/IMG/pdf/FICHE_03_Nombre_de_francophones.pdf
      find the line that says:

      Belgique 10 500 000 4 300 000 41,0%

      That's total population then the French population. Only 4.3 million.

      Delete
    17. What's wrong with this blog? I wrote a longer post just before the one above this and it doesn't appear anymore.
      Anyway, I was saying that you can't compare the total number of people who can speak French in Belgium (including Flemish people who learned it and immigrants) as a "French population" VS Québec's native French speakers and then say Belgium has a larger Francophone population because it clearly doesn't. Wikipedia also says there are 6.1 million native Dutch/Flemish speakers there so that would mean Belgium has a French majority (and 12.4 million people in the country without even counting allophones, but it has only about 11 million people it seems). Belgium doesn't have a French-speaking majority.

      Québec wins when comparing its native speakers to the number of native French speakers in Belgium and wins again when comparing the total number of French speakers: it's higher than 6.3 million when including all non-Francophones who can speak the language. If bilingual Flemish people can be counted as French-speakers then so can bilingual Anglophones.

      city-data.com? I checked www.statcan.gc.ca (government site) and I got this: 6 027 735 speak French at home + 52 325 speak both French and English natively. In fact, you can combine people who speak French as their first language in Belgium + Switzerland + Luxembourg + Monaco and there are still more Francophones here than in Europe outside of France.

      Delete
    18. What's wrong with this blog? I had another post before the one above and it doesn't appear anymore. Too long, I guess.

      Anyway, I was saying that you can't compare the total number of people who can speak French in Belgium (including Flemish people who learned it and immigrants) as a "French population" VS Québec's native French speakers and then say Belgium has a larger Francophone population because it clearly doesn't. Wikipedia also says there are 6.1 million native Dutch/Flemish speakers there so that would mean Belgium has a French majority (and 12.4 million people in the country without even counting allophones, but it has only about 11 million people it seems). Belgium doesn't have a French-speaking majority.

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    19. (continued)

      Québec wins when comparing its native speakers to the number of native French speakers in Belgium and wins again when comparing the total number of French speakers: it's higher than 6.3 million when including all non-Francophones who can speak the language. If bilingual Flemish people can be counted as French-speakers then so can bilingual Anglophones.

      city-data.com? I checked www.statcan.gc.ca (government site) and I got this: 6 027 735 speak French at home + 52 325 speak both French and English natively. In fact, you can combine people who speak French as their first language in Belgium + Switzerland + Luxembourg + Monaco and there are still more Francophones here than in Europe outside of France.
      OK, I'm done writing about Belgium now.

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    20. I hold my hand up on that: in the rush for a rebuttal I took the "Belgian French" reference to mean the population, and not the language. I can't argue with the facts.

      City-data.com is a statistics website like citystats.ca, just a bit more detailed. I wouldn't be surprised if the source is Statscan itself, just updated to a different year: the numbers are not that far apart.

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    21. Oh great, now all other attempts at posting are finally visible.
      Maybe long posts have to be approved by the administrator before appearing? After posting them and refreshing the page, they weren't visible anymore but the shorter posts were still there. Then the next day everything is online.
      This looks stupid. You can delete those posts if you want, admin. Sorry.

      Delete
  19. Is the Canadian Content Act responsible for the fact that I hear Nickelback 10 times a day on the radio? Because if that's the case, then I'd like to change my plea from mildly against it, to very against it.

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    1. I'm sure you can turn channel and listen to Avril instead... :-)

      Delete
    2. Speaking of CCA - a few posts ago, in one of the comments, someone suggested that there is a proposal (???) to have a provincial equivalent of CCA. This provincial act would restrict the English TV (Canadian and US) by following the European broadcasting settings (if I don't make any sense, my apologies, I am too tired to go back and check), which are not used in the North America. Does anyone know anything about this?

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  20. "Is the Canadian Content Act responsible for the fact that I hear Nickelback 10 times a day on the radio?"

    Non.Ça c'est de la mise en marché,adski et c'est relié aux moyens de production et de diffusion.

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    1. Must be because you can't play the whole Celine Dion back catalogue without stumbling in some english song...

      Delete
  21. Que dire de l'appui à l'indépendance écossaise ? J'espère que les angryphones de ce blogue sont contre. Sinon, pourquoi ça serait bon pour les Écossais mais pas pour les Québécois ?

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    1. it would not be good for Scotland if they separated...just look at how the republic of Ireland has been ever since it separated from the united-kingdom. it's now a big mess.

      Delete
    2. What an ill-informed comment! Ireland's problems have nothing to do with the separation from the Untied Kingdom and everything to do with rampant housing and banking speculation, government over-borrowing, the credit crash of 2008 and the Euro. And, head to head, it's still a better and more prosperous place to be than Scotland is as we speak! (Life expectancy in East Glasgow: 54 years!)

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    3. Vous avez tout à fait raison TQP de remettre les pendules à l'heure,pratiquement aucun pays d'Europe n'est épargné par la crise de l'Euro.Les plus faibles (économiquement) entraînent les plus solides vers le bas.La France,l'allemagne et l'Angleterre soutiennent presqu'à eux seuls l'économie de l'europe en entier.

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    4. Here's an interesting discussion of Scottish independence between Michael Coren and Peter Hitchens:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GFdXaf9Y0E

      Coren's first question, 0:50-1:08, where he touches on the issue of Quebec, is spot on.

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    5. George Galloway, the former British MP representing a Glasgow district, also weighed in:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ99ArqHI0s

      Galloway brings up interesting points. First is that Scotland's Alex Salmond was clear that the vote will be held only once, unlike the PQ which has in its statue a statement that it won't necessarily accept the result, essentially meaning that they will not abide by any No decision and keep going until no end. He also predicts that Salmond will initiate a series of fake confrontations with London in order to create a conflict, something that Marois promises explicitly vis-a-vis Ottawa. He also raises an issue of currency, and says that if Scotland chooses the pound, it will not really be independent. If it chooses Euro, it will be at the mercy of Brussels. If it picks its own currency, the currency will be worth nothing. Essentially like with Quebec.

      Here G.Galloway takes on a couple of Scottish separatist callers:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L05yhSBVByQ

      Very interesting.

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  22. hey, did you hear on yesterday news that some moron filed a complaint to the OQLF just because there was no accentuation on the letter E in the word metro???I could not believe my ears when I heard that!!!the person who did so, must really not have any life and he or she has got to be a plain radical loser of the worst kind that everyone rejects

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    1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    2. It was Yves Michaud that raised the complaint about the Metro grocery stores.. The same anti semetic bastard that was denounced by Lucien Bouchard.

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    3. Vous n'êtes pas au fait. L'affaire Michaud a fait en sorte que plusieurs députés de l'époque se sont excusés de cette motion qui s'attaquait à un citoyen...

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  23. Vive la Province Canadienne de Montréal !!

    The time has come to prove to the most institutionally racist part of North America that we no longer need or want the hate.

    We have more French, English, and Other CANADIANS in a few of our buildings in Montréal than PEI has population, so it would WORK perfectly fine!

    VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTREAL !!

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    1. That's exactly the point of my "The Quebec Partition" moniker. It seems to me that there's a large number of Montrealers (and their neighbours) who are happy to be Canadian and haven't got a problem whichever language anyone chooses to speak, whereas the near totality of Quebecois to the North and to the East haven't got any need or inclination to have English in their lives. Clearly one size doesn't fit all and it's high time they went their separate ways, whether the Francophonists decide to stay in Canada or not. Also, this mirrors the fact that in the Ottawa region of Ontario bilingualism is just as accepted as it is in Montreal, hence my idea of a Canadian Capital Territory or, for the less bureaucratically minded, Province de Canada, where true bilingualism can be implemented and where neither language would have the status of majority or minority, but being only a matter of personal choice and, if called for, courtesy towards a struggling interlocutor. It would also soften the blow for the people of Gatineau and surrounding areas, as they are dependent on Ottawa's government for a lot of jobs: separation of the whole of Quebec as it is now would be a raw deal for them, separation of Quebec North of Terrebonne and East of Brossard (excluded) would not affect Gatineau and would leave a near-exclusively Francophone independent Quebec, without too many captive anglos, bilinguals and allos. Everybody wins (in their own particular ways). OK, we can throw East Montreal in the deal as it's mostly Francophone (apart from my relatives in RDP, of whom only my uncle does most of his business in French, all the others being tri-lingual and mostly speaking English out of choice...)

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    2. Let us throw a referendum.

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    3. @ The Quebec Partition Feb 4, 2012 02:39 AM

      "North of Terrebonne and East of Brossard (excluded)"
      Are you including Terrebonne? The same Terrebonne that is 96% French-speaking according to Statistics Canada?

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    4. to Anonymous 07:49

      The Bloc hasn't got a monopoly on referendums, so: why not? Even better: do it Council by Council.

      to Anonymous 10:10
      Read carefully:

      "separation of Quebec North of Terrebonne and East of Brossard (excluded)"

      Brossard is excluded because it is NOT majority Francophone, hence the areas North of Terrebonne and East of Brossard (excluded) would be part (and I quote myself again, since you didn't seem to have got to that point in reading) of the:

      "near-exclusively Francophone independent Quebec"

      So, yes: I am including Terrebonne because it is 96% French-speaking and would fit right in with the other (and let me repeat myself)

      "near-exclusively Francophone independent Quebec"

      I can repeat it more slowly if you still struggle to understand.

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    5. But if it can make everyone happy I'll add that I don't particularly give a damn about this or that hamlet that has 365% anglo or franco speakers. A line must be drawn, and so long as people on either side of the line are comfortable with their neighbours and like the sound of them and have a legislation that fits their needs, rather than the needs of a stroppy MINORITY (at least according to the outcome of every referendum ever held on the subject) I'm fine with it. Because, here is the rub: there seem to be enough Francophones who don't want to leave Canada and, especially in Montreal, a hell of a lot who are not bothered by their neighbours speaking English: they even speak it themselves if called for. And I find it really hard to believe that they'd choose to become the Nordiques, when they can be the Canadiens.

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    6. À lire tous ces fantasmes de séparation et de partition du territoire Québécois,il faut croire que les anglouilles sont vraiment désespérés.Un niveau de désespoir sans précédent.Je me demande bien quelle sera leur prochaine lubie.Ils sont fous ces anglouilles!Continuez,vous êtes très divertissants :D

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    7. 101 ou 401

      Those fantasies,are not more your delusional than yours. they are probably and very much more realistic

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    8. 101 ou 401

      As I pointed out, I've got as little time for unilingual anglos as I have for unilingual francos. I'm on the side of sanity and of all those who just want to get along with their neighbour and live in a tolerant and thriving society. As you've noted, whenever called upon, the majority of Quebeckers voted against the separation of Quebec from Canada. As you point out repeatedly, Francophones are the overwhelming majority of the population: it follows that a lot of Francophones don't share your views, enough to tip the balance. But I'm also sure that they are not evenly spread across the territory of Quebec, so here is your chance to put your money where your mouth is: if you want to create your own little State of your dreams, have the part of Quebec that will happily follow you and leave the rest alone: everybody wins (surely a new, intoxicating sensation for the Nordiques...). Or you can continue with what some call soft ethnic cleansing, and I call naked land grab, only to find out that by the time you get the people you don't like out, there goes their money, the jobs they provide, the bridge to do business with the rest of the world, half the jobs in Gatineau, most of the funding for your schools, all the equalisation payments, and you're stuck with a white elephant (a bit like the Olympic legacy of 1976...).

      You'd get to keep all the welfare kings and queens though. Bargain!

      P.S. For the record, the English want Scotland out of the Union more than the Scots want to leave...

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    9. @ The Quebec Partition Feb 4, 2012 04:49 PM

      "I can repeat it more slowly if you still struggle to understand."

      Then don't say north of it because that would mean it's not included, I only asked to make sure you weren't crazy or something.
      Speaking of an independent country north of Terrebonne means it starts beyond Terrebonne. You should have said north of Laval then. Laval is over 71% French, by the way, so all you partitionists who want the whole island fail to realize that there is more to it than some multiethnic neighborhood.
      And Brossard does have a French majority, by the way.
      Almost 54% declared speaking French at home according to www.statcan.gc.ca

      If an Italian can rant about the partition of another country then I guess I can do the same about Italy and I'm not just talking about the northern half becoming independent: South Tyrol should be Austrian and the Aosta Valley should be French.

      Delete
    10. Or conversely, the Savoy region in France should be Italian, given that that's where the kingdom that eventually became Italy came from. But the situation there is settled: the Aosta Valley is a special statute Bilingual Region where both French and Italian is taught at school and receives shedloads of cash from the Italian government. Nobody (and I mean nobody among the locals) ever even considered splitting up.
      The South Tyrol is a different matter: they did their bombing at the time the Nordiques did it, but the Italian Government stuffed them with so much money and special rights (again, bilingual province, German and Italian on all road signs and taught at school - alongside English hehehehe! - lots of money, even a pension for housewives ffs!) that they got eventually pacified... hell, even Austria doesn't want them anymore now: they cost too much! Although there are some pure-laine Italians (who speak nothing but Italian) that would rather be German, but that's another story. Maybe you could learn something from Italy about how to treat minorities... (there's a bit of Slovenia that used to belong to us, though, but we're not making that much fuss about it...)

      As per Brossard, according to this:

      http://citystats.ca/city/Quebec/Brossard.html#demographics

      Only 24.2% of the population speaks only French. As the referendum votes (and de-amalgamation votes - Brossard de-amalgamated from Longueuil) show, it's almost exclusively UNILINGUAL francos that like the current state of affairs so you may be right on the language issue, but not on the related politics, which is the only thing that matters. As I said in some post or other in the last few days, I get the feeling that Laval would go franco, unfortunately for my cousin who moved there from RDP. I won't waste anymore time countering point by point, as my knowledge of the local geography is by necessity sketchy, but I invite you to read my 5.10PM post on this thread and the Feb 5, 2012 09:14 AM post further down. Then you can take me on the point of principle but remember: the bulk of the votes against separation in the various referendums came from bilingual francos as Mr. Province Canadienne de Montreal points out often enough.

      Delete
    11. Anyway, for the sake of a civilised discussion: my apologies for being rather shitty with my Feb 4, 2012 04:49 PM post.

      Delete
    12. "as Mr. Province Canadienne de Montreal points out often enough."

      He is full of crap, no stats to back it up whatsoever.
      I just went on http://www.electionsquebec.qc.ca and looked up linguistic profiles of some ridings and compared with the results of the 1995 referendum and found many ridings with much higher percentages of unilingual people than No voters yet that guy claims No voters are a bilingual bunch. A big proportion of them know only French. I can post all the links and stats if you don't believe me. I rather trust the Chief Electoral Officer than some guy on this blog.

      Some virtually 100% French-speaking ridings (with a unilingual majority according to the stats) voted No (such as the Beauce that is now Conservative at the federal level) and the Yes won in many ridings with a higher percentage of bilingual Francophones AND Anglophone and Allophone minorities. Just goes to show it doesn't work that way. Francophones in the Greater Montreal Area (including Laval, the South Shore and the North Shore) are more bilingual according to the census than those in other regions yet they seem to be more for independence than others. The separatist movement started in Montreal, after all. Quebec City is even considered a federalist stronghold but unlike Montreal it is almost totally French. Why? Because it is a more conservative city politically and the PQ's left-wing ideology isn't as popular there it seems.

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    13. (continued)

      Another example: Terrebonne voted Yes (about 68%) more than Trois-Rivières (about 56%) northeast of it despite Francophones being more bilingual in Terrebonne and Trois-Rivières is even more French than Terrebonne. How else do you explain this other than the fact that plenty of Yes voters are bilingual contrary to what you believe?

      It's hard to find stats about the percentages of bilingual Yes voters and bilingual No voters but everything indicates that it's far more complex than that and plenty of people for independence are bilingual, myself included. It's not all black and white, usually people have other reasons than "I'm unilingual" or "I'm bilingual" for voting Yes or No.

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    14. (continued)

      Bilingual Francophones are still Francophones therefore have French as their mother tongue (aside from a small minority who speak both natively) so good luck finding a lot of support for partition among them. Even for a federalist, it's more appealing to live in an independent country with people who speak the same language than staying in a bilingual province.
      Polls show that almost all Montréal Francophones (including bilingual ones) are worried about the status of French in the city so your bilingual province is pretty much only attractive to non-Francophones because they want to stay in a mostly English country. In 1995, pretty much only Anglophones spoke of partition.

      That's all I had to say.

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    15. So how come you lost? How come you always lose? Who keeps voting for staying in Canada when the anglophones are only 10% of the total population of Quebec and allophones are mnore or less the same? Cherrypicked statitics do not make up for refusal to stare facts in the face: you lost, you lost again and you keep losing because you keep making the wrong assumptions, and yet you can't bring yourself to embrace the only option that has a remote chance of making your pipe dream come true...

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  24. "Those fantasies,are not more your delusional than yours. they are probably and very much more realistic"

    Quel sera le nom du prochain parti politique qui représentera la minorité anglo de Montréal?

    Division Montréal?........Hahahahahhahahahahhahaha!!!

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    1. People like adski or apparatchik (just to name those who chose a consistent moniker) are bilingual francos that don't share your view: there's enough of them to make you lose any vote (as history shows). Way to go to win their favour by insulting and ridiculing them...

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  25. Mr. Little Brother of room 101,

    The 401 will bring CANADIANS of all backgrounds into our beloved province, which is under siege by your hateful treasonous racist cult. These CANADIANS of all backgrounds will overrun your hate and bring mutual respect to our land. If you think this is about language, I can’t blame you. I attended French Separatist School too and I was fed the same BS as you were, but by the grace of god, I saw the Grand Canyon sized difference between the War Of 1812 Victorious Maple Leaf and the pre-Revolutionary Cross Dressing Lois 14th Monarch Banner.
    Look into why France purged that pre-Revolutionary Cross Dresser’s symbol in place of Le Bleu Blanc Rouge. Then tell us what “people” you think you are.
    Do you think that we all have yielded our French Heritage to your cult of HATE?

    VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTREAL !!

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    1. Mr. Little Brother of room 101,

      The 401 will bring CANADIANS of all backgrounds into our beloved province, which is under siege by your hateful treasonous racist cult. These CANADIANS of all backgrounds will overrun your hate and bring mutual respect to our land. If you think this is about language, I can’t blame you. I attended French Separatist School too and I was fed the same BS as you were, but by the grace of god, I saw the Grand Canyon sized difference between the War Of 1812 Victorious Maple Leaf and the pre-Revolutionary Cross Dressing Louis the 14th Monarch Banner.
      Look into why France purged that pre-Revolutionary Cross Dresser’s symbol in place of Le Bleu Blanc Rouge. Then tell us what “people” you think you are.
      Do you think that we all have yielded our French Heritage to your cult of HATE?

      VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTREAL !!!!

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  26. VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTREAL!

    This is not about partition or separation! It is about proving to the rest of Quebec that the separatists are a special interest group plastered in a xenophobe lie.
    I am originally Francophone. I went to French separatist school and was subjected to their cryptic, sinister social engineering. The only thing that rescued me from the hate that I was taught, was that my parents found a way to have me escape the single bannered (no Canadian Flag) dump of a Hate Speech School early enough for me to learn another language.
    Children learn other languages if they are exposed to them before the age of about 10. The separatists know this, and that is why bilingual education is banned here. . The PROVINCIAL government needs to suppress an unsuspecting population by keeping them unilingual French since they almost totally control the QC French media. The important thing was that I was not ever going to be subject to the hateful lies the Quebec Separatist French media spews because through any other language I could hear L'autre côté de la médaille.

    Thus I learned that My Country is much bigger and better than the Seps tell us. I also learned that there are more French Canadians in this province who are willing to defend Our Canada than the entire population of some of our other provinces. This is important because it proves how few separatists there really are in Quebec.

    So don’t buy into this propaganda. Almost 95% of Francophones who speak a second language voted NON to that vile divisive 1995 referendum and more than 98% of those who voted OUI spoke only French. Of those yes voters more than 30% did not know they were voting to separate from their Country. The BS about 50.6% vs 49.2% result was another lie. Merci Mr. Dion for the Clarity Act!

    This brings me to LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTREAL. Seps can visualize the deep black hole that is left in Quebec with Montréal as The 11th Province and perhaps some empathy can set in. They’ve been black mailing Canada with the same since the 60’s. With all that disgusting propaganda and all that social engineering and their trick referendum questions, they still have not been able to convince us to break up this Amazing Country. We don’t want to ask;

    Do you agree that Montréal should become a Province of Canada after having made a formal offer to Quebec for an economic and political partnership within the scope of the will defending the future of Montréal and the agreement of July 1, 1996? ,

    but we know we can do this more easily than the Seps because, unlike the cult of the PQ, BQ, ADQ and the CAQ want to do, it is not treason. It is asking for recognition and affirmation from Canada that Montréal remain Canadian.
    For those who argue that we should divide it on racial/linguistic lines. We say this is a territorial project.

    Hum.. Wonder where we’ve heard this kind of rhetoric!

    VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTREAL!!

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    1. To Mr. VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTREAL!!

      I don't think we are making different points. My idea of Partition is about letting the unilingual francophones set the agenda in the place where they live, and let the bilinguals, anglos and allos set their own agenda in the place where THEY live (capital for emphasis only). Moreover, I think that bilinguals in West Montreal, Brossard, Aylmer and other truly bilingual areas of South Western Quebec have more in common with their correspectives in Eastern Ontario (Ottawa and surrounding area) than with the unilingual majorities of the rest of their respective provinces in terms of background, history and aspirations, and I believe that all three communities (anglo in Ontario, franco in Quebec and bilinguals in both provinces) would be better served by such a re-organisation.
      It's not about punishing the Nordiques (I think I'll stick with this nick to refer to the Francophone Hegemonists) as, at the beginning of the history of their movement their aspirations and demand were justified, the means less so. They wanted (and deserved) justice, now it looks like they just want to be another cheek of the same arse, justice having been achieved a long time ago but with the cult of victimisation so ingrained that they cannot see the harm that they are doing.
      Then, if after the re-organisation, the Nordiques want to go their own way and leave Canada, it will be up to them: they'll have the numbers if they wish to do so, and they won't have many captive fellow travellers who disagree, which can only be good for both parties involved.

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    2. Who are the Nordiques? As an American, they were just the name of a hockey team in Quebec City, now the Colorado Rockies. I assumed that "Nordiques" meant "northerners" and meant the team was distinguishing themselves from southern Quebecois in Montréal. Now I see that according to Google, "nordiques" means Nordic. Who are the Nordiques in Quebec?

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    3. Yes, it refers to the hockey team or, rather, the assumption (that may be true or not, but sounds too good to pass on) that those who'd have supported the Quebec Nordiques over the Montreal Canadiens would probably be on the side of the Francophone Hegemonists in political and language matters.

      It is by pure coincidence that Montreal and the more Anglophone part of Quebec is also more to the South.

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    4. If the word "Nordiques" really means "northerners", then I don't think it's merely a coincidence that Montréal is in the south.

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  27. Saviez-vous que pouviez écrire en français sur ce blogue (canadien).L'époque du "speak white" est parait-il révolue.

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    1. La langue de mon enfance?
      Taken over by separatists who use terms like "speak white" to justify the apartheid the have imposed on us all.
      You are the "speak white" here!
      The hateful lies the Quebec Separatist French media spews can be checked if i keep any other language. This way, I can hear L'autre côté de la médaille.

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    2. So: from Speak White to Parlez Blanc... as I said: two cheeks of the same arse!

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  28. "La langue de mon enfance?"

    L'assimilation va bon train à ce que je vois :)

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    1. Seppie, you call having a choice assimilation?
      Pauvre toi!
      Try freedom on for size, you Louis XIV wanna be.

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    2. Seppie, you call having a choice, assimilation?
      Pauvre toi!
      Try freedom on for size, you Louis XIV wannabe.

      VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE MONTREAL!!

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    3. VIVE LA PROVINCE CANADIENNE DE LAVAL! :)

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