Monday, September 26, 2011

Montreal Returning To its Bilingual Roots

The declining situation of the French language in Montreal can be fairly described with that familiar bromide of "between a rock and a hard place," with the need for immigrants to stem the effect of a declining birthrate, offset by their propensity to adopt English in large enough numbers to upset the linguistic apple cart.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.....

In describing the linguistic situation of French in Montreal, I much prefer the Latin expression,
(A cliff in front of you, wolves behind.)

The recent outcry against international companies trading under English trade names is just one element denoting the shifting sands under the French language, where a convergence of trends augers poorly for the future of French as the overwhelmingly dominating language of Montreal.

Last Friday the OQLF published a report indicating that by 2031 the island of Montreal would tilt  towards a majority of citizens whose mother tongue is other than French.

The reliability of this report leaves something to be desired, as pointed out by Don Macpherson of the Montreal Gazette, who tells us that the demographer making this prediction, Marc Termote,  has had a spotty record, already having made this prediction on five previous occasions, all with different conclusions.
Read the story in the Montreal Gazette. Link

No matter.
While one can dispute the 'when,' the fact that Montreal is becoming more English should escape nobody on either side of the linguistic debate.

Facts and statistics are all subject to interpretation, but let me try to keep things as simple as possible.

Montreal today has a demographic element of 25% Anglophones, 50% Francophones and 25% Allophones(whose mother tongue is neither English nor French)

We are told by the government, that eventually, half the allophones will adopt English and half will adopt French and so melding these numbers we can extrapolate that Montreal is roughly 37% English and 63% French.
Since Anglophones are no longer fleeing the province, the balance between English and French in Montreal remains stable, only if the 40,000 or so immigrants arriving to Montreal each year choose to adopt French over English by this same 63% to 37% ratio.
In fact to maintain linguistic balance province-wide, immigrants would have to adopt French at a level of about 87%.
But such is not the case and so each year, the English numbers creep up, slowly but surely.

But other factors are also at play, including the fact that while Anglos remain firmly embedded in Montreal, many francophone families have fled to the suburbs, tilting the linguistic balance on the island towards English even more.   

Also contributing to the Anglicization of Montreal is the changing face of the retail marketplace, Not only are the mastheads of the new wave of international retailers alighting in Montreal, English, but the culture and products purveyed therein are English as well.

Montreal's English institutions continue to thrive and expand, the new mega-hospital currently under construction another symbol of the permanency and strength of the community. McGill University, an international and Canadian treasure,  centers a concentrated network of institutions of higher English education that is so attractive that it pulls students from the indigenous francophone community as well as from other provinces and abroad.

The massive Bell Centre home of the 'English' Montreal Canadiens, serves up English concerts and events on most nights, with French artistes taking a decidedly backseat.
Most of the tourist attractions including the Comedy Festival, The Jazz festival and the Grand Prix are largely English affairs drawing tourists to the city that interact largely in English regardless of their mother tongue.

The decline of French in Montreal is largely paralleled with the decline of French internationally, as English has evolved into the de facto language trade, commerce, entertainment and tourism.

An so French language militants are truly behind the eight ball in trying to reverse what appears as an inexorable decline of French in Montreal and an opposing rise in English, which has all the appearances of having passed a critical tipping point.

But the reality is that while Montreal is becoming more English, it is just reverting back to its natural state, something it always was, a completely bilingual city.

Photographic evidence shows us, that whatever decade you choose to examine, (except for the last three) Montreal was one of the most bilingual cities on Earth.

St.Catherine & Stanley 1915

This 1942 photo of a deppaneur denotes the beautifully bilingual nature of the city.


Montreal in its greatest decade- The sixities. English  and French, side by side

Montreal in the Thirties. The sign says it all
The City of Montreal was officially bilingual until the late 1970's

For those of the Bill 101 generation, a bilingual-looking Montreal is but a figment of the distant past, but the truth remains that the city's history is as English as it is French.

Nothing can change the fact that Montreal was built by the Scots and the English with most of the heavy lifting done by the Irish. The street names of the downtown core reminds us of a heritage that French language militants wish us to forget.

While they argue that Anglos are taking over, the reality is, that Anglos are taking back what always belonged to them.

Bill 101 continues to artificially prop up the French appearance of the city by forcing a predominance of French signage, propagating the fiction that somehow, by pretending English doesn't exist, it will somehow  disappear.

But the sign laws are largely ineffective. If every sign in the city magically turned into French tomorrow, it wouldn't change anything.

Like the PARIS casino in Las Vegas, which tries to project an imaginary French atmosphere upon guests, the use and exclusive appearance of French in Montreal is largely illusory.

Don't expect to use French at the casino's craps table or order dinner in French at its Les Artistes Steakhouse and similarly, although the store windows in the Fairview Mall are French, most people are transacting in English.

And so it seems that the artificial world that Bill 101 foisted upon the city these last thirty years is failing.The linguistic reality can no longer be plastered over by French signs which serve only to distort the truth.

Francophone militants claim that Montreal belongs to the French. By repeating it often enough and loud enough, they believe they can make it so.  But they cannot change what is.

Montreal belongs to the English and French in friendship and partnership.

It remains home to a beautiful language duality that language bigots cannot abide.

Too bad....

128 comments:

  1. "Nothing can change the fact that Montreal was built by the Scots and the English with most of the heavy lifting done by the Irish."

    Oh really? Somehow you forgot one symbol that is on the city's flag... the fleur-de-lys. In a reversed situation, you would speak of intolerance.

    "It remains home to a beautiful language duality that language bigots cannot abide."

    You're a bigot yourself! You don't even mention any contribution of French Canadians yet you write of friendship and partnership.
    Most of the working-class was French and so are most construction workers to this day. Who worked in Anglo-owned factories that made some Anglos rich in the first place? Why was the last Anglo mayor elected more than one hundred years ago? Because most residents were Francophones as can be proven by old Canadian censuses. English signs were hiding the reality just like you claim French signs do so today... even though Anglos are still outnumbered by Francos. The Fairview mall you speak of isn't even in the city itself but in a West Island suburb. I could claim the same about eastern malls... Is French "artificial" even as far east as in Pointe-aux-Trembles which, unlike Pointe-Claire, is a borough of Montreal? How many anglos in the east again?
    You can't speak of a whole city and then include only select areas as examples of the presence of English because the same can be done in other areas where English has pretty much always been rare. The distribution is quite uneven. Let me post some stats...

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  2. Strongly agree with another excellent post, Ed.

    I particularly share the feelings expressed in the comments toward the end of your post. As you've probably already figured out, I'm neither a fan of unilingual French or English anything, and believe that diversity is best preserved when we can mutually support each other's diverse institutions.

    Nobody passed a Charter of the Catholic Religion to "protect" Catholicism, even though the clergy played a critical role in much of this province's history, and even though the Church was our sacred identity cow back then as our language is now. In fact, I'm glad to be a practicing part-French-Canadian Catholic in 2011 out of choice than out of state/community-sanctioned coercion. Despite dwindling congregations, I'm a participant out of choice, and am freer to ask and explore deeper questions about my spirituality - both as a lay Christian and as a secular humanist - than my great-grandparents ever were. (I'm also glad the Church isn't placing my "illegitimate" children in orphanages or foreclosing on my property because I've failed to tithe.)

    If any community - religious or otherwise - ever hypothetically went extinct, I'd rather it be because its members decided it (as we did as Catholics during the Quiet Revolution), and not the state. Then again, politicians in all times and places have made a career out of fearmongering - often with lucrative personal results. Fortunately, such eras have expiry dates; for what is a society if not a giant experiment in applied philosophy?

    I'm actually surprised you didn't select more pictures showing more of the exclusively French signage seen around some of the more exclusively francophone parts of town, even during our golden age.

    Nevertheless...

    I think that with a bit of maturity, tolerance, and mutual understanding, coupled with a healthy evolution of heart both by a majority of francophones and anglophones, we can, along with the allophones yet to join us, continue to build Canada's only truly bilingual metropolis.

    Hijacked by extremist-aligned French-Canadian nationalists in the 1960s and both the fruit and prey of British colonial capitalism before it, and the base for White Catholic European supremacists before that, I think our city has undergone a sufficient deluge of both wonder and lunacy in the past bit that a lasting stability rooted in equality of peoples, including both founding nations and languages, should and will become the norm before too long. That is, if we can learn from the good and bad from each period - recycling the good, and inverting the bad.

    If our destiny is to continue living together, it seems to me only right that our city genuinely represent the hard-fought and hard-won fruits of such cohabitation.

    Concordia Salus!

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  3. City (not including west island), mother tongue:
    French only 834,520
    English only 200,000
    English and French 12,055
    Other language(s) 33 547,150
    Language spoken most often at home
    French 907,495
    English 296,475
    Non-official language 315,820
    (and then some smaller numbers about other combinations such as French and other or French and English etc)

    Doesn't look like a majority English city to me... that was in 2006. Unless hundreds of thousands moved in a few years, anglos are still a minority.

    Now let's look at the whole island including anglo-suburbs (which are not totally anglo):
    French only 889,960
    English only 306,560
    English and French 15,000
    Other language(s) 612,385

    So, is that all? 306,560 out of 1,823,905? An English city/island?!?!?
    Oh, right, I forgot language spoken at home. English gets 436,260 out of 1,823,905. Not even 24%.
    Now you'll say that there are more allophones speaking English outside their home. Fine, anybody can be an anglo even when you have no connection whatsoever to the language and you speak it with a foreign accent. BUT the thing is that many allophones are not aligned with the "English" (anyone can be English but actual ethnically English people are as could be seen a minority or else why don't they declare English as their mother tongue?) and many even only know French aside from their mother tongue. In case you didn't know, the most common countries as far as immigrants in Montreal are: Algeria, France and Morocco. Then add the Haitians and all those Latino immigrants who tend to learn latin-based French instead of English, they even have francization classes. Long gone are the days where almost all Allophones were future Anglophones. Will those people start speaking English at home? They can't even send their children to English schools and they speak mostly French at work. There are hundreds of thousands of Allophones you can't claim as yours. Just ask them. Many are disappointed to find out they have to know English to work at some places.

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  4. Demographics, shmemographics! I still think Anglo Montrealers are going to leave, but perhaps not in as great numbers as in the 70s and 80s. Those who can manage the French curriculum in the English instructional and French immersion schools will have a greater propensity to stay, those who cannot, OUT!

    What, however, about the rest of Quebec? It's not as if English will return to the rest of Quebec. Those Francophones who see the importance of English, a minority of them, will learn English if it is clearly to their economic advantage to do so (i.e., entrepreneurs who seek business beyond the confines of Quebec). The rural proletariat will not learn English.

    In the near and medium-term future, I still see Quebec as a society of stumble-bums with their pro-union, anti-business mentality. Canada, as a whole, tends to over regulate business, but Quebec is by far and away the most meddlesome of the lot. The OQLF buffoons will only keep business down looking for "illegal English" and other assorted idiotic regulations.

    How about the protests finally manifesting in front of Premier John James "Goldilocks" Charest's office? As long as mafiosos and biker gangs control the streets as they do, that will keep Quebec down. Anyone over 50 years old has virtually zero chance of seeing Quebec improve to be competitive with Ontario or Alberta, and I'm even skeptical that any newborn as I write will see a similar result, even if law enforcement starts to take on and slowly defeat organized crime.

    Quebec has a lot of rebuilding to do, but as long as language is more important than quality of education, health and proper infrastructure restoration and creation, there will be no hastening improvements. As long as the language nonsense of the last 35 years continues, that will be the biggest impediment to any chance of prosperity in Quebec. Constantly crying "gimme gimme gimme" to the feds, too, is not constructive. Harper can show Quebec how, if he has any gonads, when the amendment of the equalization formula next takes place in 2014.

    Any anglos who want to stay behind will get what they deserve. I proved my point by leaving. It just wasn't worth the fight.

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  5. In case you don't believe my stats, look them up yourself here:
    http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/index.cfm?Lang=E

    As for the south shore and the north shore they both have a French majority. Even Laval is still at least 2/3 French. Too bad for the pro-partition and annexation people. You can't get ALL of Montreal or Laval, only the west and Chomedey.

    Good luck for the east of the island, where almost nobody declared English as their mother tongue. Several ridings even voted for independence back in 1995.

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  6. @ 2:33 AM
    Forget about the line Other language(s) 33 547,150
    it should read Other language(s) 547,150.
    I should re-read myself before posting since I can't delete my posts.

    Anyway, the title speaks of Montreal returning to its bilingual roots and then you say Francophone militants claim that Montreal belongs to the French.
    But Anglophone militants are worse because they are even less in numbers and their history doesn't go as far back.

    Remember that Montreal was founded in 1642. That's almost 370 years ago. 120 years as a French colony.
    So many non-French people in Montreal can't even trace their roots before the 20th century! Think of all the immigrants and the anglos from other provinces who moved in since then!
    I've even encountered intolerant pro-English people born in Ontario!
    At least intolerant Francophones have a long past behind them.

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  7. "The massive Bell Centre home of the 'English' Montreal Canadiens, serves up English concerts and events on most nights, with French artistes taking a decidedly backseat."

    But most people attending games are not Anglophones. How could they be? 70% of the greater Montreal area is French when including suburbs and certain visible minority groups are definitely underrepresented in the audience and everybody knows that hockey is very popular with Francophones so without them, there would be no Canadiens playing. They would probably move.

    "Most of the tourist attractions including the Comedy Festival, The Jazz festival and the Grand Prix are largely English affairs drawing tourists to the city that interact largely in English regardless of their mother tongue."

    Comedy Festival? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_for_Laughs
    It wasn't started by an anglo in the first place... just like the Cirque du Soleil which is also something quite entertaining that originated here but that's another story. Juste pour Rire draws huge French-speaking crowds, not just the English part... which is also attended by a certain number of Francophones as judging from crowd reaction when some jerk comedian made jokes in English about French and was heckled a lot. So you even need us to make more money with your English events. Anyway, during the comedy festival there are events in the streets, parades, etc and I've heard a lot of French spoken. No way are the majority of people attending English. Also, look at the credits of the TV show Just For Laughs Gags which also airs in English... not many English names. How convenient that's it's silent for Francophobic people watching it in English Canada. To think many probably think it's Anglo-made... Why the lack of Anglo comedians if the city is so English as you claim it is? Are all those twins during the twin parade Anglos too? No, they're not. I can provide videos if you care. I don't hear any speaking English.

    Jazz Festival? A largely English affair? Do you have statistics about the languages spoken by the spectators? It's totally possible that is has a French majority. Also, it was founded by a Francophone! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Jazz_Festival

    Grand Prix? Surely Francophones account for a big part of spectators. Again, perhaps a majority.

    "drawing tourists to the city that interact largely in English"
    Oh really? What about people from all across the province visiting the city? Do they interact in English too?

    Your writings mean nothing without statistical evidence. One thing's for sure is that many Francophones are involved and these events would make less money if they were only attended by non-Francophones.

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  8. Make Montreal a Language Law Free zone and let her thrive I say. I speak both languages but rarely use French and have little use for it in the city. The books, movies, music and pretty much everything else I consume is English. Having been born here to immigrant parents and growing up in the 70's and 80's I always found the Quebecois culture peculiar and insular and was never really drawn to it. Things are a bit better for more recent immigrants but I still sense that the draw for immigrants to English North American culture is still stronger than to the French North American culture. Montreal has some really solid institutions in both of this Country's official languages and I think we should focus on our strengths as a bi-cultural North American center rather than what has been going on since the 1970's where languages other than French have been stamped out by government policy. The momentum that was building in this city in the 1960's never really had a chance to blossom because of ethnic nationalism. I sense that has played out and Montreal is on the move back to prosperity. In this dawn of the new economy, with manufacturing jobs permanently disappearing, we really need to row in the same direction and play on our strengths. Drop the English Vs French battles and appreciate both languages. Make Montreal a Language Law Free zone and let her thrive I say. I speak both languages but rarely use French and have little use for it in the city. The books, movies, music and pretty much everything else I consume is English. Having been born here to immigrant parents and growing up in the 70's and 80's I always found the Quebecois culture peculiar and insular and was never really drawn to it. Things are a bit better for more recent immigrants but I still sense that the draw for immigrants to English North American culture is still stronger than to the French North American culture. Montreal has some really solid institutions in both of this Country's official languages and I think we should focus on our strengths as a bi-cultural North American center rather than what has been going on since the 1970's where languages other than French have been stamped out by government policy. The momentum that was building in this city in the 1960's never really had a chance to blossom because of ethnic nationalism. I sense that has played out and Montreal is on the move back to prosperity. In this dawn of the new economy, with manufacturing jobs permanently disappearing, we really need to row in the same direction and play on our strengths. Drop the English Vs French battles and appreciate both languages.

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  9. "Since Anglophones are no longer fleeing the province"

    They still are apparently but not as much:
    http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-555/table/t13-eng.cfm

    2011 census data will eventually be released and we'll find out.

    587,610 anglophones left since 1966 and so did 144,500 allophones when not counting arrivals.

    Who are all those people who were moving in while so many were moving out?
    Why stay knowing you will always be a minority?
    Whatever happens in Montreal, it will always be a part of a French province with a French government in Quebec City with French laws.
    Partition? So far, talks of partition have happened when it seemed Quebec was going to become an independent country. Can there be partition without separation? Maybe. But then why hasn't it happened yet? Why is no West Island town a part of Ontario to this day? Because the land is not contiguous? Then how come there are towns right next to the Labrador border with English majorities and they haven't joined Newfoundland and Labrador?
    Being an exclave is not an excuse. Russia has an exclave between Poland and Lithuania.
    If partition was going to happen, it would have already happened. If anything, it should be less big of a deal to partition a province while it's still in the same country. Wasn't Nova Scotia split to create New Brunswick?

    The West Island towns were willing to join Ontario back in 1995 so why are they still in this province? What's stopping them?

    Most likely in the event of independence, Anglos will do what they have been doing for decades: they will leave and that's all. Even Galganov left. Why are you still here? You're living on borrowed time should separation happen. If it doesn't, you'll be frustrated by Quebec laws all your life. Do like the Mississauga guy and leave and become happier.

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  10. Leave?? Fuck that.... that's what the Rat pukes want... I'm staying out of spite.. Demanding my rights!!!..

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  11. Great article editor, but you're going to make Pierre Curzi upset.

    The separatists and language extremists don't really want to protect french, they want to get rid of any other languages and cultures. Why do I say this? Because they have no respect for their own language, only hate towards other languages (english in particular).

    Ten years ago, I moved from the west-island, where I spent twenty years speaking mainly english, to a 99% french town. Despite all that time spent speaking english, I can still write and speak french better than most of the people here.. Unless "matante" is an actual word. But yet I'm still the "méchant anglais" who doesn't respect french...

    I'd like to see the results from french exams from 5000 integrated immigrants (or anglos)compared to 5000 "québécois de souche" from various small towns in the province.
    I'm convinced that the french people would score much lower.

    Just watch some french (Quebec) TV, and see for yourself how the french language is treated. Musique Plus is going to be 100% bilingual soon. And "Loft Story".. That's a french name right there!

    - Quebecker Of Tree Stump

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  12. "The separatists and language extremists don't really want to protect french, they want to get rid of any other languages and cultures."

    Et notre plan fonctionne bien.Attachez vos tuques car le meilleur reste à venir! ;)

    Sans l'appui inconditionnel de l'ensemble des Québécois,nous les seppies,n'aurions aucun pouvoir.

    Merci à la Nation de nous soutenir!

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  13. Sans l'appui inconditionnel de l'ensemble des Québécois,nous les seppies,n'aurions aucun pouvoir.

    Et effectivement, vous n'avez aucun pouvoir :D

    - Le PQ n'est pas au pouvoir, et selon les tendances actuelles, ne le sera pas dans un futur rapproché..
    - Le Bloc Québécois est passé de 49 sièges à 4..
    - Les souverainistes se séparent entre eux-mêmes (ah, l'ironie :D )

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  14. "According to the findings of the International Adult Literacy and Skills Survey (IALSS), 800,000 Quebecers aged 16–65, or one adult in six (16%), are on the lowest rung of the reading ability scale. "
    http://www.fondationalphabetisation.org/en/adults/illiteracy_literacy/


    but who cares? as long as defending "the language" with ... not stupid, but abnormal laws is more important than investing money in the educational system, why bother?
    apparently some of us fail big time in understanding the big problem: you will help the language by investing in it ! a better educational system worth a billion times more than a law that is preventing stores having an english/pakistani/chinese/bulgarian/ name.

    Quebec, and especially Montreal should strive to be more appealing to foreign companies no matter what their name is ...

    What culture means if we will be unable to read the signs, or the advertisements ?

    It's such a shame that the majority of pro-separation fail to see beyond today.

    NM

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  15. "At least intolerant Francophones have a long past behind them."

    Ahhh, the "we were here first so we have the right to be douchebags argument"

    How provincial.

    I left the province 3 months ago. Probably for good. I'm currently living in New York. While I find it amazing that few people here know about McGill, it does not surprise me one bit that nobody gives a shit about Quebec and its language issues.

    Move on, just because your predecessors were her 10, 20, 200, 500, 100000000 years before mine it doesn't give you the right to be an asshole.

    No English person in North America is trampling on the rights of French Canadians. I can't say the same for the English rights in Quebec.

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  16. Very interesting post as usual. Here are some stats just for people to ponder who makes up QC, even a hundred years ago:
    ...from a book called "Quebec: A Historical Geography" by Serge Courville and Richard Howard. On page 128 lays out the demographics of the 3 largest cities of the province of Quebec in 1844 and 1851. The 3 largest cities of the province of Quebec back then were Montreal, Quebec City and Trois Rivieres.

    1844 Demographics of Montreal
    French Canadian (42.78%), English Canadian (19.91%), English (7.10%), Irish (21.56%), Scots (6.09%)

    1851 Demographics of Montreal

    French Canadian (45.08%), English Canadian (21.65%), English (4.95%), Irish (20.33%), Scots (5.46%)

    1844 Demographics of Quebec City
    French Canadian (59.23%), English Canadian (16.90%), English (4.09%), Irish (16.51%), Scots (2.13%)

    1851 Demographics of Quebec City
    French Canadian (58.19%), English Canadian (18.52%), English (3.23%), Irish (17.22%), Scots (1.71%)

    1844 Demographics of Trois Rivieres
    French Canadian (86.03%), English Canadian (7.89%), English (1.18%), Irish (3.38%), Scots (0.91%)

    1851 Demographics of Trois Rivieres
    French Canadian (86.6%), English Canadian (8.65%), English (0.56%), Irish (2.17%), Scots (0.91%)

    I urge you to go and read the stats for yourself. You can buy the book called "Quebec: A Historical Geography" by Serge Courville and Richard Howard on Amazon or read the passage on page 128 on the internet. These are the best stats to have been researched about the demographics of Montreal, Quebec City and Trois Rivieres in 1844 and 1851.

    Note: I only did the most important demographic groups in Montreal, Quebec City and Trois Rivieres, bascailly the Francophone and Anglophone populations.

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  17. Its pretty simple stuff folks, or is it? You want to bring us back and along with it our money, then repeal bill 101 and give us back out equal rights in Kebec which we enjoyed for 200 years.

    If not I and many others will continue to boycott the racist, bigoted province. Not only that we tell many others in the states and elsewhere to boycott the province as well.

    We are watching and we are NOT stepping foot in the province again. You have no idea the amount of money you are losing daily, no idea. You racist language Nazis. WAKE UP!!!

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  18. English is a bigger language .10 times more words than french .

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  19. Well, let me just explain my situation living in Montreal.

    While I am an allophone, my family communicates in English. I arrived in Montreal six years ago and went to McGill to get my graduate degree, Quebec-residents fees. Then I joined the francisation program. The money was okay, it kept us afloat for a while. Then I got a job in downtown Montreal. It is a good job, the one I dreamed about before I moved.

    Now I am in this job happily. The office is almost 100% English. In fact, English is the working language. Francophones speak French to each other, but they always switch to English in more formal situation or when speaking to non-francophones.

    I live close to the West Island, but still within Montreal municipality. The neighbourhood in English. Except with the postman, I do not use French at all. In fact, I can live my life comfortably without having too much knowledge of French language.

    So here I am. An ex-immigrant living in Montreal comfortably. I make well above the 67% of the population of Montreal, Quebec, Canada, or North America. Did I mention that I live my life almost exclusively in English? When I was unemployed I took the francisation class and I got the prescription drugs coverage by the government. When he was little I sent my son to a $7/day daycare. In English, of course.

    When I got sick I went to Royal Vic and when my son got sick we went to Children's. I have no French channel on my cable except the basic channels and RDS during Habs season. I listen to The Q (whatever the name is now) and Virgin Radio. As such, I never watched TLMEP since I prefer Sunday Night Football live, and The Amazing Race on PVR. While I did go to Saguenay and La Malbaie for vacations, I also went to Orlando, New York, Toronto and Atlantic City. In addition, all my bills and government mails are in English.

    I guess I am the stereotypical "bad immigrant" the separatists keep on warning us about. So be it. I enjoy my life in this city in the language of my preference. I bother nobody and I consider the separatists as nuisance. Until they can show me that their movement is truly popular, I have good chuckles at their follies.

    And ah, oh yes. I seldom use French in my daily life.

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  20. @ Troy

    Then it makes 2 of us...same thing here.
    I rather choose to improve my life than fight stupid language wars :)

    NM

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  21. @Troy et NM

    Alors quelles sont vos raisons de vous comporter comme des angryphones...Nous sommes gentils avec vous :)

    Aucun prétexte valable pour faire du "Québec bashing" sur ce blogue.

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  22. Aucun prétexte valable pour faire du "Québec bashing" sur ce blogue.

    So when Quebec citizens have an opinion that you don't agree with, it's "Quebec Bashing"?

    You obviously failed to notice that nobody is saying anything against the province itself, but rather the language extremists and separatists who want to (in our opinion) destroy it.

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  23. @Anon 4:10
    "Alors quelles sont vos raisons de vous comporter comme des angryphones..."

    BIG MISTAKE. We just want to live in a civilized town/province/country where money are spent on infrastructure, health and education. Instead millions and maybe billions are spent by OQLF...

    Go back to Vigile, because there you'll have plenty of reasons to do Canada bashing...

    Oh, sometimes i just want so bad to see Q separated and dawning in debt and problems that this thought is scarring me...

    NM

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  24. I strongly agree with this!
    Montreal is the heart and soul of anglo-quebecers.
    This is where our community is, and always will be and hiding it will do nothing to change it!

    One thing I'd like to say, all these statistics about the majority of Montrealer's mother tongue not being French is ridiculous.
    Who cares if your mother tongue is Chinese, Russian, Italian, etc.etc.etc.
    What is important for the survival of French is that that they are able to speak and understand French..which they assure by sending all children to French schools.

    One of my close friends is Chinese and by hearing her speak you would have no doubt at all that she was a french Quebecer.
    Knowledge of French is what is needed...not fear of all that is English!

    ReplyDelete
  25. Despite all the comments from our chauvanist and seppie friends. The partition which was laughed at a few years ago, is actually raising eyebrows now.

    The focus on the allo population is quite interesting. The pur Laine chauvanists don't even realize that they are pushing allophones towards the anglos. Just by seeing some of the attitudes reflected in the chauvanist comments. Even the immigrants that come to Quebec due to having French as their primary official language, is not working out as they planned. The chauvanists will blame the anglos for "stealing" from their numbers, even though they can't fathom that its their own behaviour that makes allos join the Anglo culture of Quebec. When French speaking immigrants see that they are better off working in an anglo environment with their limited French, rather then not working at all or being reduced to 2nd class citizen employees among the pur lainers, they switch to the English side.

    The Quebecois media is now seeing a demographic threat on Montreal Island, it is of their own making. Forcing anglos and allos to stay closer together for comfort. where as the pur lainers are moving out. The next census will shock the pur lainers even more. By the way the corridor between Montreal and Ontario is not very dense. Already Anglos and allos are moving to Dorion-Vaudrauil, Hudson and St Lazare. IF that corridor happens, the chauvanists will get a rude suprise.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Living in Park Extension, I had a similar experience to Troy. I never really have to speak French in my daily life. Park Extension is almost the Centre of the city of Montreal

    ReplyDelete
  27. Francophone culture isn't very integrative and that will never change (especially in Quebec).

    ReplyDelete
  28. "...rather then not working at all or being reduced to 2nd class citizen employees among the pur lainers, they switch to the English side."

    Quand ils se rendent compte que les anglos du Québec sont des citoyens de deuxième classe,ils reviennent quêter des emplois en français ou quittent le Québec.

    "between a rock and a hard place"

    ReplyDelete
  29. Ahhh so you admit you're a racist. Pathetic little man.

    "Quand ils se rendent compte que les anglos du Québec sont des citoyens de deuxième classe."

    ReplyDelete
  30. Dorion-Vaudreuil et St-Lazare...

    J'aimerais bien entendre un chinois anglo prononcer ces noms...MDR!XD!

    ReplyDelete
  31. @Anon 6:39

    So you're glad loosing workforce you stupid prick ! If all will leave Quebec, who the frack will pay your check, you effin-social-assisted-idiot?
    The true face of a seppie !
    If only half of allos would quit their job, Montreal will freeze.
    So that is your opinion regarding prosperity of Quebec? So shameful ...

    ReplyDelete
  32. Go to hell you f%%%% racist !


    "J'aimerais bien entendre un chinois anglo prononcer ces noms...MDR!XD! "

    ReplyDelete
  33. @Phil

    Do you really think that this kind of characters could maintain a country by themselves?
    Even Congo will be better than an independent Quebec ...

    ReplyDelete
  34. Don't worry: independent Quebec = NEVER gonna happen.

    "Do you really think that this kind of characters could maintain a country by themselves?"

    ReplyDelete
  35. "Don't worry: independent Quebec = NEVER gonna happen."

    Je ne sais pas qui va en souffrir le plus:

    Les Québécois ou les canadiens,incluant ceux qui vivent à Montréal?

    ReplyDelete
  36. " Les Québécois ou les canadiens,incluant ceux qui vivent à Montréal?"

    Are not Quebecers still Canadiens..non?

    Votre francais est mort dans Montreal ouest. Sinon, il n y pas un probleme, mais, je penser que elle est mort comme le reste du Camada d'hors Quebec. Malheursment pour les "seppies" et l'autres qui avoir esperez pour cette langue.

    Independent Quebec, bonne chance avec ca...as Quebec has dug a debt hole they cannot possibly extracate themselves from. Without mother Canad and equalization payments and other freebies, Quebec will fail. The people such as Desmarais know well the truths and so does JJC, as does most of anyone with any intellect outside of the Vigile.net bunch whom are in fantasy land.

    The death will spread in the langue with years to come in spite on expensive language laws which will, in the end, have no consequence when compared to pure economics.

    Simply not economically fashionable or realistic to have two languages in a country where one is in a minority situation as the French is in Canada.

    The seppies have built their houses on the language debate which intelligent people in Quebec are increasingly become aware, is a total pharce.

    The Montreal phenomena will spread. So goes Montreal, So goes Quebec.

    Je suis tres desole pour votre langue. Mais, c'est le vie, mon petit gens aux Quebec.

    Le fin.

    ReplyDelete
  37. @ Hugo Shebbeare

    And what is the point of posting those old stats?
    All those cities were founded in New France and always had a French majority, what you posted was Anglos at their peak and then they declined. The only exception is Montreal which had a non-French majority for only a 2 or 3 decades at most but its history spans 37 decades so based on that, if one group should be the majority, it should be French Canadians.

    Anglos were always a minority in this province:
    http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/stats/anglos.htm

    See a trend on that graph? Foreigners invade, then peak, then decide to move elsewhere such as the West for economic reasons and their share of the population declines. No ethnic cleansing took place. No separatists in power before 1976. No Bill 101. You can't say they were forced to leave in a time when they acted like a dominant minority and looked down upon the majority. They left by themselves. There won't be a second invasion.

    Look at the graph. Montreal becoming more English would be going against the trend. Going against the decolonization process. You can say that independence will never happen as much as you want but one thing is for sure: should it happen, most Anglos, with their Canadian citizenship, will move to English Canada. An independent Quebec will not be bilingual. A reconquest took place and like the Moors in Spain who thought they could last in the southern part of the country, all of Spain was eventually reconquered. We are patient.

    I remember in the 1980s when the Liberals were back in power and defeated the PQ. It seemed as though independence was a thing of the past and then in 1990, surveys showed support for separation as high as 67%. When the PQ was finally back in power a few years later, it was down at 38% and the next year the referendum happened with the results we know today.
    You keep making fun of separatists for now but one day you may not find it so funny. After years of a Harper government things will be much different. Notice the sudden rise of the NDP... which will not last. Separation can quickly become popular again. The electorate is quite unstable. All they need is a good leader to guide them, like when Parizeau arrived on the scene and quickly made separation popular again.

    ReplyDelete
  38. @9:35 PM
    "The Montreal phenomena will spread. So goes Montreal, So goes Quebec."

    The exact opposite phenomenon is happening. Quebec has never been more French.
    http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/stats/anglo1.htm

    Anglos will not start moving to any area not near Montreal because there is no Anglophone community. Immigrants almost all go to Montreal and those who don't assimilate to French.

    Assimilation cannot happen without an Anglo population. Even in the West Island there are Francophones in a minority situation and they don't lose their French. Why? Because they are supported by the province, which will keep being governed from French Quebec City with virtually no English civil servants. How can people living in French regions, going to French schools, working in French start losing their French? Never going to happen. A third of New Brunswick speaks French and you think a much bigger province (Quebec) with millions of people not living around English people will become English? Keep dreaming.

    "Le fin."
    First, it's La fin.
    Second, the only thing that is ending is the Anglo presence in all regions of Quebec but one, which is doomed to stay isolated and insular... it is an island, after all.
    You will never debates in English at our National Assembly. French will always be the official language.
    There won't be millions of non-French people moving in. YOU lost. We didn't. Assimilation didn't happen with 25% of Anglos spread across the province. It won't happen with 8% concentrated on a tiny island and still leaving the province:
    http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-555/table/t13-eng.cfm
    More than half of immigrants don't end up speaking English. Anglos have always had a lower birth rate. You will never win.

    ReplyDelete
  39. @10:01 PM
    *You will never HEAR debates in English

    ReplyDelete
  40. I love how the book referenced in http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/stats/anglo1.htm
    is called The Forgotten Quebecers.
    That's right. Most people don't know about this anglo presence outside of Montreal. Many towns have English names without English people.
    They are forgotten and those left are likely to suffer the same fate. French Canadians will never be forgotten. To many outsiders, Quebec is only French Canadians. This part of the world has had a French majority for more than four hundred years and will never be anything else. Come back when you're 90 years old and you'll still find it the same. Writings in the 19th century predicted French disappearing but here we are today, with our children still speaking French and they will bring up their children in French and so on.

    ReplyDelete
  41. @Anon 10:01

    If the situation is like you presented it, why the f@#$ everybody is so against anglos? If the will perish, why bother having OQLF and such stupid laws? Huh? WHY?

    it's because graphs are made by seppies :) that's why...

    let me tell you something, just from my experience: people embrace english much faster then french, and immigrants ( not francophone ) will always embrace english faster.

    it took you 30 years to realize nothing. Montreal has fallen to third or even forth place within Canada, loosing the pole position. And this is because of you !

    Don Quixote, just die already!

    ReplyDelete
  42. "Votre francais est mort dans Montreal ouest. Sinon, il n y pas un probleme, mais, je penser que elle est mort comme le reste du Camada d'hors Quebec."

    I will answer in English because your French is awful. French is not dead in the West Island (which only accounts for 2.8% of the provincial population!), see for yourself, some people speak it even there:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Island#Language

    Now, you'll say most don't BUT that's because they are not French Canadians, not because they assimilated. Duh. There's a huge difference between an Anglo region with Francophones moving in but still being a minority and a region going from French to English. Those Anglos are descended from Anglos that's why they speak English. Again, duh.
    Now, why is the French minority there still speaking French at home? If assimilation doesn't happen at 22.9% French, how can in happen in 99% French regions?, which is what most of the province is?

    You say French is dead in English Canada yet you fail to see that people there only assimilate because they live in majority English towns. See what happens in English Canada when a town has a French majority:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmunston#Demographics
    They don't assimilate. It's all about the local demographics. If those guys in an English-majority province don't assimilate, we will definitely not. Do you not understand how language switch happens? It doesn't magically happen.

    Either you're really stupid not to see the difference or a liar trying to spread fear. It's just like those people who say that because the Bloc lost, it means Quebec will stop speaking French. For most of Quebec history, there was no separatist party. As if one had to be a separatist to want to preserve French. Most federalists in Quebec speak French. Separation is one thing, language is another. We don't need separation to preserve our language or else assimilation would have happened already.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Immigrants to Canada come for economic reasons, not to prop up an ass backward culture/language that no one 1 hour away from Montreal speaks. Troy's comments above are spot on fir most immigrants that do end up staying in Quebec. A lot of decent, hard working immigrants to Quebec pack up and move and pay taxes in Ontario after a few years because of this language non sense. an ass backward culture/language that no one 1 hour away from Montreal speaks. Troy's comments above are spot on for most immigrants that do end up staying in Quebec. A lot of decent, hard working immigrants to Quebec pack up and move and pay taxes in Ontario after a few years because of this language non sense.o prop up an ass backward culture/language that no one 1 hour away from Montreal speaks. Troy's comments above are spot on fir most immigrants that do end up staying in Quebec. A lot of decent, hard working immigrants to Quebec pack up and move and pay taxes in Ontario after a few years because of this language non sense. an ass backward culture/language that no one 1 hour away from Montreal speaks. Troy's comments above are spot on for most immigrants that do end up staying in Quebec. A lot of decent, hard working immigrants to Quebec pack up and move and pay taxes in Ontario after a few years because of this language non sense.

    ReplyDelete
  44. "it's because graphs are made by seppies :) that's why..."

    No. They are based on data from Canadian censuses and many books written by Anglos confirm this. Yes, of course, only separatists working at Statistics Canada...
    Can't have a serious discussion...

    ReplyDelete
  45. Why were all major candidates during the last Montreal election Francophones if Montreal is SO Anglo? What is stopping them from running? Again, why was the last Anglo mayor elected a century ago?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Montreal

    Run for mayor. Try to turn all street signs into English signs and stuff. Do it. What's stopping you? You should be able to if you are the majority as you claim.
    People living in West Island municipalities don't get to vote in Montreal elections, though. That's what you get for demerging. It only accounts for a small part of the population of the island anyway. It is less densely populated.

    Create a provincial party like you did:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Party_%28Quebec%29

    If you're lucky, maybe you'll send a few people (out of 125 ridings) to Quebec City and then... well, they won't be able to do anything and everything will be discussed and written in French, they will be ignored. Not even the Liberal party is against Bill 101. You can't abolish it.

    Unhappy? Then declare independence in whatever area of Montreal you like. Vote and if you are a majority, you should be able to win. If you're not allowed to, go to the United Nations or whatever.

    ReplyDelete
  46. @Anon 10:30

    Really? No serious discussion? You make me laugh ...
    If you want something serious, please explain how Quebec, as a new country will manage to keep industries here, and sustain economy? What currency it will use? How about citizenship? Please tell us about foreign relationship? NATO? NAFTA? Tell us about agreements with Canada and US if they will not recognize Quebec. How about employment? Tell us more about borders !

    Get real, you and your serious discussions !
    It matters only language and culture, but you don't spend a second visualizing the consequences...

    You and your stupid graphs and polls...reality dude, that counts !

    ReplyDelete
  47. "Le fin."
    First, it's La fin."

    C'est parfait et oui, LA fin pour votre langue.

    Why else would you elude to such a dramatic diatrabe if you were not so concerned and/or paranoid. As they say..those that protest the loudest !!!

    :)

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  48. "Then declare independence in whatever area of Montreal you like. Vote and if you are a majority, you should be able to win. If you're not allowed to, go to the United Nations or whatever. "

    that's the solution ! let's all declare independence and be citizens of our country, the house/condo we live in.
    We live in a society...it;s scary to see people thinking like that !

    ReplyDelete
  49. "Why else would you elude to such a dramatic diatrabe if you were not so concerned and/or paranoid. As they say..those that protest the loudest !!!"

    You are guilty of it too only you write of French disappearing all the time. I write of Quebec staying what it is as we speak. Only time will tell who's right.
    I just have too much time to waste and can't resist showing some facts to deluded people who think Quebec will become English, which is absurd. It's not like most Francophones think about Anglos and go on sites such as this one and write about it. Why would they? Most don't encounter Anglos often if ever.

    Look at how tiny the Montreal region is:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_Quebec
    Most regions are virtually totally English-free. I can provide census data if anyone cares but apparently that's "stupid" and only "reality counts" well it is in fact the reality! Go visit all regions and see for yourself.

    Yeah I think I'll stop writing here, only reality counts indeed and I doubt I will ever experience the reality of being a minority in Quebec and my fellow French Canadians starting speaking English and/or having Anglo-Saxon neighbors moving in.

    Funny how one can drive from Ontario to New Brunswick on highway 20 through regions where the only Anglos are... people driving through for a few hours.
    This is a Montreal issue, let's leave all of Quebec out of this.

    ReplyDelete
  50. What all of the intolerant French Canadians posting here have to understand (and which you clearly don't) is that in order to make our own country, you're going to have a take up arms, because the 20% of the province that vehemently opposes being torn out of their home and native land will refuse to recognize the authority of this rogue ruling clique posing as a "national government". How much does it really mean to you??? After all, over the course of the last 100 years the French Canadians have generally proven themselves to be the most spineless group alive, being the cowards who shot themselves in the woods rather than risk death in war. It's not in their genes to fight a true fight, whereas on the other side of the equation you have a residual population of born fighters, people who have put up with an inordinate amount of shit in order to enjoy the privilege of being discriminated against in their homeland. And all this babble concerning who was here first is getting a bit old. My (English speaking) family has been in Quebec for 235 years, so you can suck my nutsack if you think that I'm going to let a crew of skinny, in-bred, weak facial haired, acid washed jeans wearing, mullet sporting asswipes speaking a North American patois pseudo-French dispossess me the same way that they dispossessed the native population that preceded them in this land. Get this straight you asswipes, you have absolutely no greater quality of attachment to the landmass we know today as Quebec than any person whose family has been in Quebec for even 2 generations. The only difference is that unlike every other group who lives here, you are the only one that has taken proactive steps to imprison yourselves here through your refusal to learn the international language of commerce, science, popular culture, diplomacy, avionics, etc. Why should you be rewarded for your enforced ignorance?

    Mark my words you spineless rodents. If you ever try to separate, your little dream will be torn asunder just as easily as tissue paper when the Cree take the north (where all your minerals and hydro resources are), and the "faaking henglish" take the most productive parts of the Island of Montreal. As for places like Laval, Mascouche, Repetingny, Longeuil, Saint Hubert, etc. you can have it. We'll even give your asses St. Lambert cause we're in a generous mood. However, other than that, everything from the Ontario border through to the US border and all the way to New Brunswick is going to stay in Canada, either as a new province or as part of Ontario. The first law to be passed will be the dismantling of the Charter of the French language, and we'll require work permits for all of the Quebecers to enter into Canada every day to work. If there don't want to (or can't because they're card carrying members of the OQLF or the SJBS, I'm sure we'll be able to encourage massive migration of English speakers from Ontario of the Maritimes. Quebec can then be stuck with the shitty little rump state that they so richly deserve (or as Pierre Eliiot Trudeau called it, "leur republique de patate frites", where they can go so far as to ban English language schooling entirely and, for all I care, proscribe all commerce in any language but joual. We'll see how long they can persist having up to 20% of their population on Welfare/EI, or providing $7 a day daycare once Alberta and BC aren't footing the bill. Maybe while we're having fun we'll also force an early renegotiation of the Churchill Falls deal in order to further cut into French Quebec's capacity to provide for itself.

    You see, all of this relates to the lessons that French Canadian Quebecers should have bee taught in the early 60s. Had they been taught then, likely none of the bullshit of the last 40 years would have happended. Instead, they appeased the assholes, and here we are.

    I can't wait to see how the little indignant in-breds respond to this post.

    ReplyDelete
  51. "Separation can quickly become popular again. The electorate is quite unstable."

    Les politiciens anglos connaissent le phénomène et c'est pourquoi ils jouent "low profile".
    J'espère seulement qu'ils s'agiteront un peu plus dans les années à venir...Ça manque d'action!

    ReplyDelete
  52. "As for places like Laval, Mascouche, Repetingny, Longeuil, Saint Hubert, etc. you can have it."

    Well of course we'll have them, those places never had an anglo majority in the first place.

    "We'll even give your asses St. Lambert cause we're in a generous mood."

    You don't need to "give" it to us, we already took over many many decades ago. We have been living there since the 17th century anyway so it was ours in the first place, you foreign invaders.

    "Saint-Lambert had an anglophone majority population during the beginning of the 20th century, but has increasingly become the home to upper-middle class francophone families, especially after 1976."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Lambert,_Quebec#History

    http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=2458012&Geo2=PR&Code2=24&Data=Count&SearchText=saint-lambert&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=24&B1=Language&Custom=1000,8000

    ReplyDelete
  53. "everything from the Ontario border through to the US border and all the way to New Brunswick is going to stay in Canada"

    HAHAHAHAHA! You cannot go to New Brunswick without going through these regions:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaudi%C3%A8re-Appalaches
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas-Saint-Laurent

    They are almost 100% French! Read the stats and weep:
    http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=HR&Code1=2412&Geo2=PR&Code2=24&Data=Count&SearchText=Chaudiere&SearchType=Contains&SearchPR=24&B1=Language&Custom=

    http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=HR&Code1=2401&Geo2=PR&Code2=24&Data=Count&SearchText=Bas-Saint-Laurent&SearchType=Contains&SearchPR=24&B1=Language&Custom=

    Also, all other regions on the south shore including Estrie (the "Eastern Townships") have a clear French majority. Not much English is spoken today in Sherbrooke. All you have left are a few tiny towns right next to the US border that's a long way from New Brunswick.

    "I'm sure we'll be able to encourage massive migration of English speakers from Ontario of the Maritimes."
    Then how come you never did it yet? Why wait for independence to do it? You will need 2.5 million people (more than the population of all the Maritimes) to just become half the population of the south shore of the Saint Lawrence. I did the math and checked the stats.

    I am from the Chaudière-Appalaches region so I know it pretty well and neighboring regions too unlike you. This was never your land and never will be. English is a foreign language there. We will never join English Canada if Quebec becomes independent. You will never force us to leave or to do anything. Enough of your talks of war. We have been through two and half centuries of your "rule" and no such thing ever happened and now the world is more pacifist than ever.

    Canada could never get away with it and we will not let ourselves be moved without a fight. Do you see such situations happening in the West? NO. Can't happen here either. If the majority of those regions want to join an independent Quebec, they will or else you would have the United Nations against you.

    That land will never be English. No Anglo community whatsoever. The few Anglos get assimilated.

    You can keep fantasizing about conflicts that will never happen but in real life you we will continue living in French in our French-only regions and there is nothing you can do about it. Go there and see how you will stand out as a minority.

    ReplyDelete
  54. "I can't wait to see how the little indignant in-breds respond to this post."


    Me voilà.Vous semblez être en phase:

    "I am the king of the world"

    "My (English speaking) family has been in Quebec for 235 years"

    Et la mienne : 437 ans!

    Je crois que vous devriez consulter votre médecin afin qu'il ajuste votre médication.
    Montrez-lui seulement une copie de votre post.

    ReplyDelete
  55. They can't even abolish French as a co-official language in New Brunswick and it is only 2/3 English... can't even become as English as Quebec is French (80%) and they speak of becoming the majority in a province with ten times more people than NB.

    Just in Montérégie there is way more people than in much bigger in area New Brunswick.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont%C3%A9r%C3%A9gie
    Notice New Brunswick on the right:
    http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=HR&Code1=2416&Geo2=PR&Code2=13&Data=Count&SearchText=New%20Brunswick&SearchType=Contains&SearchPR=24&B1=Language&Custom=

    I am so scared...

    Too bad you won't get your "land bridge"... drive through the US and leave us alone.

    ReplyDelete
  56. "Et la mienne : 437 ans!"

    So it seems. That's why in-breeding...no wonder your only neuron is dying of loneliness.


    Please, go ahead and take Quebec already. I beg of you, just separate. LOOOOOL ....

    ReplyDelete
  57. "drive through the US and leave us alone. "

    Leave us alone to in-breed and speak only french...while in-breeding. Ohhhh, oui !

    ReplyDelete
  58. Then I guess a lot of anglos are inbred. Notice how the few Eastern Township anglos left are descended from a bunch of loyalists... it's not like they keep getting new immigrants and breed with them... same thing for the Maritimes... and so many regions all across North America... or Europe for that matter. Your precious England must be quite inbred outside of the big cities.

    ReplyDelete
  59. @Anon 11:57

    For sure, lot's of inbreeds ! Nobody is denying this. But because of this, the society must remain open ... see, it's not brain surgery.

    So, "just go away" is a bad thing my friend...

    ReplyDelete
  60. "My (English speaking) family has been in Quebec for 235 years, so you can suck my nutsack if you think that I'm going to let a crew of skinny, in-bred, weak facial haired, acid washed jeans wearing, mullet sporting asswipes speaking a North American patois pseudo-French dispossess me the same way that they dispossessed the native population that preceded them in this land. Get this straight you asswipes, you have absolutely no greater quality of attachment to the landmass we know today as Quebec than any person whose family has been in Quebec for even 2 generations."

    Then why do you mention your family's history if it doesn't matter? You think 235 years is impressive? Most of this province descends from people arrived before 250 years ago, duh, and they don't speak English. We have a "greater quality of attachment" to the land because we live on most of it except for the sparsely populated north but then again anglos don't live there either. Almost all inhabited land (cities, towns, etc) has a clear French majority and this will never change so even if you never leave, your kind will always be a minority province-wise. The whole Saint-Lawrence valley has been French-speaking for more than 400 years and will continue to be whether you like or not. I love how Quebec City went from 40% English to 1.5% and it it's not increasing.

    Again, a lot of your kind have already been dispossed:
    http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-555/table/t13-eng.cfm
    Just do like them and move.

    Claiming "you will never make me leave!" is one thing but then calling for annexation of regions where your kind has no business being there in any way is another thing.

    Hey look at me! I'm being an imperialist in my basement!
    Can't even make Canada officially unilingual even with a Conservative government let alone change anything when it comes to Quebec laws... how many anglos in the civil service again? Massive underrepresentation... I think it's zero point something percent... there was an article about this once in the Gazette.

    ReplyDelete
  61. "Only time will tell who's right."

    Vous avez bien raison avec ca, mais, je croire le temps sera bien pour le anglais, comme tous le monde.

    "Look at how tiny the Montreal region is:"

    By area or by population? Comme je disant, so goes Montreal, so goes Quebec. Montreal is the economic engine of Quebec and money always trumps ideology.

    "Yeah I think I'll stop writing here, only reality counts indeed and I doubt I will ever experience the reality of being a minority in Quebec and my fellow French Canadians starting speaking English and/or having Anglo-Saxon neighbors moving in."


    Unfortunately, you are a minority in Canada and becoming increasingly as such. As far as your fellow French Canadians, they have already started speaking English in order to survive (at least the ones with a semblance of clear vision for their future).

    "This is a Montreal issue, let's leave all of Quebec out of this."

    Une encore fois, l'avenir du Quebec est comme le chemin au Montreal. Sans Montreal, Quebec est plus rien.
    I note there are government sanctioned laws of discrimination against other languages to assist with the continuation of French. If French was as strong as you indicate, why is there any need for laws such as 101? This, BTW, has spread to all of Canada at huge cost through the failed Official Language Act.


    Face the realities, both in Quebec and the world...The French language is in decline and of waning importance or value. The laws of language discrimination such as 101 will fade away into oblivion as the people realize their best options.

    ReplyDelete
  62. "Claiming "you will never make me leave!" is one thing but then calling for annexation of regions where your kind has no business being there in any way is another thing."

    Seems to me this was decided on the Plains of Abraham. The French lost the war and were allowed to stay...and even keep their folk language. So whom has no business being here?.

    It is not your land, it belongs to the victors and they spoke english as history points out clearly. Of course, perhaps you were brought up in the revisionist world of the Quebecois who tend to distort history.

    The seppies speak of colonization.. Well, that is exactly what it is...Not a founding nation but in fact a defeated nation. I suppose one could conclude that Quebec is a colony controlled by those maudits anglais :)

    ReplyDelete
  63. "drive through the US and leave us alone."

    Much more pleasant experience. Driving through the US, that is.

    ReplyDelete
  64. "Montreal is the economic engine of Quebec and money always trumps ideology."

    Then why haven't the Flemish in Belgium assimilated to French? Brussels went from a Dutch-speaking city to a French-speaking city because French-speakers moved in but that never made Flanders French-speaking. Brussels is way more French-speaking than Montreal is English-speaking and Belgium is much smaller yet the Flemish go on speaking Dutch all around Brussels.

    No need for a whole population to abandon their language for English just for economical reasons. One can learn English as a second language and never lose his mother tongue. I did.

    There are already some Francophones working in English but speaking French at home and this has been the case for a long time. They don't assimilate and I'm talking about Montreal! Why would the majority of the provincial population need to speak English at work? And those who need it for communication with the outside world or to speak to some tourists, they learn it but they don't start raising their children in English.

    Some people don't seem to realize that you can speak more than one language. I thought this was pretty basic stuff.

    Look at Iceland. They know English quite well and yet they still speak Icelandic among themselves yet the nearest countries speak English and their population is so small compared to Quebec's. If it's possible for them to preserve their language then we certainly can too.

    The few English schools that exist in regional Quebec often have a majority of Francophone students because they are descended from parents who went to those schools before Bill 101 and guess what? They all still speak French even at the schools on the south shore and north shore which unlike the others, are right next to Montreal so imagine those far away from it.
    It's nothing new. I know several older people who went to English schools and they didn't adopt English as their language. Why would they? They live in French-speaking environment. Even if Bill 101 was abolished and everyone went to English schools, they wouldn't assimilate and would speak French in the schoolyards just like I've heard them do. Their parents would still speak French. No language switch would happen.
    In Sweden they know English quite well yet they still speak Swedish because of the lack of native English-speakers. Same thing applies for almost all of this province.

    ReplyDelete
  65. PART 2

    “I remember in the 1980s when the Liberals were back in power and defeated the PQ. It seemed as though independence was a thing of the past and then in 1990, surveys showed support for separation as high as 67%. When the PQ was finally back in power a few years later, it was down at 38% and the next year the referendum happened with the results we know today.
    You keep making fun of separatists for now but one day you may not find it so funny. After years of a Harper government things will be much different. Notice the sudden rise of the NDP... which will not last. Separation can quickly become popular again. The electorate is quite unstable. All they need is a good leader to guide them, like when Parizeau arrived on the scene and quickly made separation popular again”
    If they supported the separation, then why the hell didn’t the province separate? There must be a reason to it? I bet it’s because of “Il nous l’ont vole” as always and frankly, this statement is getting old…very old!
    and
    We’ll laugh at you(seppies) even more when you will only represent 0.0000000004% of the francophone population in a NON-SEPARATED QUEBEC that will likely be English( BTW, this one also goes to anonymous of chaudiere appalache on September 26, 2011 11:38 PM who think his region will not be affected by the English language in the long run, but he’s wrong as a matter of fact.)

    And to anonymous on September 26, 2011 2:17 AM
    The Montreal you are pointing out, is in fact the east end of Montreal, where it’s all JOUAL…come down in the downtown area and you will notice a big difference.
    No wonder why all seppies say that Montreal is all JOUAL, it’s because they live in their east-end cocoon and refuse to acknowledge that real Montreal further south, is not what they want it to be…

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  66. "Seems to me this was decided on the Plains of Abraham. The French lost the war and were allowed to stay...and even keep their folk language. So whom has no business being here?.

    It is not your land, it belongs to the victors and they spoke english as history points out clearly."

    Well you said it yourself, we were allowed to stay so yes we have business being here. Is your opinion more important than that of said victors? We have Canadian citizenship just like you and there is nothing about our citizenship that distinguishes from yours so we have the same rights and cannot be deported and will never be deported, like some illegal immigrants are.

    Right, it's not our land, except that we live on it and have been doing so before you, own property, elect our own mayors and MPs and MNAs and make the laws at the National Assembly. We also have our police force, etc. What presence do you have, for example, on the south shore of Quebec City? I wrote no business being there to the guy who wants to annex it as if it were an anglo region, as if he had anything to do with the region which he never inhabitated. I thought the whole point of partition was that only towns with an anglo majority wouldn't join a free Quebec?

    Go live in an all-French city and shout that it's your land and that we have no business being there and see how long you go without being kicked out of town.

    We may have lost a battle but YOU LOST in the end because as was pointed out earlier with data, Quebec is more French than ever and the English population is gone from the regions and will never come back. How can it be their land when they don't even live on it and never will?

    You can claim it's all your land as much as you want but in reality, it belongs to whomever lives on it. You have no authority and power if you don't even live there. You don't own anything there. We do and our property is recognized by the Quebec government (which you don't run) which in turn is recognized by the federal government so our presence is perfectly legitimate. Like I said, we are Canadian citizens before the law and you cannot change that.

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  67. "We’ll laugh at you(seppies) even more when you will only represent 0.0000000004% of the francophone population in a NON-SEPARATED QUEBEC that will likely be English( BTW, this one also goes to anonymous of chaudiere appalache on September 26, 2011 11:38 PM who think his region will not be affected by the English language in the long run, but he’s wrong as a matter of fact.)"

    OK now you are just totally crazy. There are ridings that voted for independence in that corridor in 1995 which would have prevented a link to New Brunswick and those that didn't are still French ridings. Some were like 51% No, 49% Yes, 99.99999999% French.
    Only anglos spoke of partition. Most Francophones wouldn't want to be separated from the rest of Quebec even when they are federalists so they would join it.

    There are separatists in all ridings and I doubt they would leave so you would end up with a non-independent Quebec that STILL WILL HAVE A FRENCH MAJORITY with a big proportion of separatists. In fact, most ridings voted yes in 1995 including most of those south of the Saint Lawrence.

    I'm wrong as "a matter of fact"? That's not a fact! The only fact is that the said region is almost 100% Francophone and who are you to predict the future?
    Come back when there are anglos moving there... you'll wait forever. Then it would be a fact. Until then:
    JUST FUCK OFF AND LEAVE OUR REGIONS ALONE. YOU DON'T LIVE THERE. WE DO. YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT OUR REGIONS. WE CANNOT BE FORCED TO JOIN ANYTHING OR MOVE ANYWHERE IF WE DON'T WANT TO. IT'S CALLED DEMOCRACY, YOU FASCIST.

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  68. @ 1:17 AM
    NON-SEPARATED QUEBEC that will likely be English

    How could it be? You don't have the numbers. Look at page 7:
    http://www.chssn.org/En/pdf/Vol1_2006_stats.pdf
    Regions number 1, 4, 5, 12 and 16 are the southern ones. Where is your English majority? Oh look, even number 6, Montreal, doesn't have more English people than French people. Even with assimilated allophones you would still be a minority in this non-independent Quebec.
    Want to include the region bordering the Ottawa river, Outaouais? Nope. Anglos would still be a minority. Add Laval and you end up with the same result. Adding the Laurentians (Laurentides) would only make it even more French.

    I just don't understand this obsession with a land bridge. Alaska doesn't border the rest of the USA and they don't annex British Columbia. It's not like people won't be allowed to drive through Quebec once independent. Jesus Christ. You don't need a huge land area just for a highway... we'll keep the highway too anyway, by the way.

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  69. http://www.chssn.org/En/pdf/Vol1_2006_stats.pdf
    Page 8 is quite interesting.
    In 15 years (1991-2006), the French population grew (almost 400,000) whereas the English population grew of only 190 people. LOL. And you speak of taking over Quebec? How will the future be any different?

    I guess that must hurt the people who say "just wait till the next census!" well even if there was an increase it would be minimal. So, some people from Ottawa have been buying houses on the Quebec side, some people from Montreal have moved to Laval and some have moved in the Laurentian mountains. But the Francophone population increased far more there especially the Laurentians. I don't see any non-Montreal or Ottawa related increase. Notice how Estrie/Eastern Townships is becoming less English and Anglos are not moving there because it's doesn't gravitate around Montreal.

    Montérégie which inludes both the south shore and the western part that borders Ontario and includes Vaudreuil? Only 634 in 15 years. 131,177 more French. Some suburbs are more Francophone than ever because some people myself included have moved from the regions to Montreal suburbs which makes the island surrounded by a growing Francophone population (including those who leave Montreal).

    Oh right, you'll say the data is fake even though it was made by an anglo and published by a pro-anglo group.

    So Montreal was more English in 1991 than it is now at least as far as mother tongue is concerned. It has been getting many French-speaking African and Arab immigrants so that's not really helping your cause.

    The Liberal era is coming to an end. Soon François Legault will be elected and has been talking about language. He may not be a separatist but he is not as weak as Charest when it comes to language because, unlike Charest, most anglos will not vote for him but most francos will. The decrease in anglo out-migration coincides with the Liberals taking power.

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  70. To Anonymous on September 27, 2011 1:17 AM

    "The Montreal you are pointing out, is in fact the east end of Montreal, where it’s all JOUAL"

    Ah so you admit English is rarely spoken there... Take note, people who want to whole island.

    You can't look down upon it as a French area all the time and claim it at the same time. It even voted for independence in 1995.

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  71. There is one thing that anon at 2:45 is dismissing. The demographic force that the pur lainers had on their side in the beginning of the 20th century was the result of "revenge of the cradle". Now thanks to the Quiet revolution that is not something that can be used to make Montreal Island back into an Pur laine enviromnent.

    Also bill 101 was responsible for the massive decline in the Anglophone population. The anglophone population that remains and new anglos that come are finding ways to live in Quebec despite Bill 101. There is not much more damage that can be done to the Anglo population.

    I think the pur laine chauvanists are more worried by the new allophones then anglophone community because the demographics of Allophones in Quebec will continue to grow very fast. They are losing the battle to have Allophones become cultural pur lainers.

    If the 2011 census reflects a continuing pattern to that of the 2006 census then demographic balance on the entire montreal island will be an English Friendly area. I was suprised how much places east of St Laurent boulevard like Montreal North, St Michel have alot more English presence. Even St Denis is a alot more English Friendly then it was in the 1980s and 1990s.

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  72. The link below is a reflection of how non-pur laine areas get less representation in the provincial assembly.

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Little+hope+Plan+under+represented+Montreal/5461994/story.html

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  73. @anon 2:45

    Monteregie is a huge region. While its population may have grown. Most of the Francophone growth was outside the Ontario Montreal corridor. Where as anglo growth was in Vaudrauil, St Lazare and hudson. Allo growth was in Vaudrauil and the south shore suburbs. Also the areas on in Monteregie and Eastern Townships on the US border still have a large anglophone population. Now another interesting thing is you make no mention of allos? I mean they are convenient in your arguement about Montreal being a primarily French city but not so when it is there to prove Francophone dominance.

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  74. "http://www.chssn.org/En/pdf/Vol1_2006_stats.pdf
    Page 8 is quite interesting.
    In 15 years (1991-2006), the French population grew (almost 400,000) whereas the English population grew of only 190 people. LOL. And you speak of taking over Quebec? How will the future be any different?"

    So despite bill 101 and a massive exodus, the Anglophone community has stablised and is reversing a decline. That means that at least in Montreal and vicinity anglos are here to stay.

    ReplyDelete
  75. @anon 1:56

    Why should the partition be based on Gerry mandered administrative regions of Quebec? Why not based on Borough, town and district boundaries? Just because seppies and pur laine supremicists say so?

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  76. In the west island, Francophones as % of the population is actually declining as allophone numbers grow and Anglo numbers maintain there numbers.

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  77. @ anon 9:43

    "An independent Quebec will not be bilingual. A reconquest took place and like the Moors in Spain who thought they could last in the southern part of the country, all of Spain was eventually reconquered. We are patient."

    Thats funny your looking at the Spanish reconquest and inquisition. First of all the Quebecois don't have the patience or the will to fore go hedonism to establish their goals. There ain't no baby boom on the horizon among the pur laine population and neither do they want immigrants in their midst. As mentioned earlier they make the immigrants adapt English.

    The only thing similar to Spanish inquicitionists is the pur lainers ability to destroy the economy and standard of living. Spain was alot better off under the moors.

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  78. Wow.

    I just wnat to say that the thread of the discussion confuses the hell out of me. All use 'Anonymous', so how are we suppose to know which one is which?

    Name your post, people!

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  79. @ 6:33 AM

    "Why should the partition be based on Gerry mandered administrative regions of Quebec? Why not based on Borough, town and district boundaries?"

    Because every single town in those regions has a French majority so might as well just speak of the region as a whole when it's virtually totally French. The whole area in between the Maine border and the Saint Lawrence has no significant English presence whatsoever. It should not be confused with the Eastern Townships to the south... where most towns are French anyway including the biggest cities such as Sherbrooke, Magog, etc. but that's another story since that region borders neither Ontario or New Brunswick and this is about a corridor in between provinces.

    Look, there even was an article about this on this very site:
    http://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.com/2011/02/quebec-politicans-take-immigrant.html
    Look at the map. You cannot drive to New Brunswick without going through that region and like the Editor said the percentage creeps right up towards 100%.
    Look it up yourself:
    http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-595/P2C.cfm?TPL=RETR&LANG=E&GC=24034

    And that is only one riding. There are many more ridings like it to the west and to the east.
    No gerrymandering is possible when all the area is homogeneous in the first place.

    "Just because seppies and pur laine supremicists say so?"
    The supremacists are those anglos who claim an area where they are not a majority, where they are almost totally absent just because they don't want to drive through an independent Quebec. You said it yourself: partition based on town boundaries. Do they live in those towns?

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  80. Racism has become so institutionalized in Quebec, that the French language zealots posting comments are oblivous to the garbage that they spew..

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  81. I bet there is a doctor for all this seppies ... What do you see? A butterfly? No, i see Free Quebec... LOL

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  82. @anon 9:11

    Do you just make things up as you go along? Did anyone ever talk about a corridor across Quebec to join east and western ends of Canada. That will already be accomplished by just taking back Northern Quebec that was ceded to Quebec during confederation. You simply dimiss anglo and allo majority areas as if they don't exist.

    Gerrymandered electoral representation is a fact. Rural Pur laine areas get alot more representation then their actual population.

    As mentioned before why does a partition have to be based on Quebec made administrative boundaries? Its pretty easy to have a referendum in based on district boundaries.

    The prospect of partition keeps laughing at but when you actually apply some of the concept on certain areas, it scares the pur lainers.

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  83. Despite all your personal reasons, what will dictate population movements is the economy. People will go where the jobs are, and businesses will go where it's the least expensive (and most profitable) to operate.

    In the recent decades, we've seen a tendency for corporations to move to Ontario and/or other parts of the country. This isn't just a coincidence.
    Not only do language issues increase the cost of operation, but the quebec mentality is one of the laziest in North America. We have the highest rate of unionization on the continent. They have tried to unionize convenience store clerk jobs...

    An independent Quebec would immediately be financially crippled, this fact is impossible to deny. First we'd have to do without federal equalization payments, which is a huge amount. Then there would be a ton of services we'd have to finance ourselves (think of anything federal, from infrastructures to the post office, to the army). Then we'd have a huge debt towards Canada for the purchase of their infrastructures.
    (Yes I know the separatists expect the rest of Canada to give them all this for free, dreams and fantasies are nice)
    Finally, you'd have to consider the cost of all the extra social / language programs.

    Corporations would be facing:
    - A crumbling economy
    - Massive inflation and loss of consumer purchase power
    - New nazi-like language laws
    - A low-education french workforce
    - Unions which would be an official part of the government
    - Excessive taxation and regulations to make up for the huge provincial deficit
    - The loss of their best workers and minds

    Corporations would be fleeing this province like the plague. And I'm sure we could encourage the Canadian government to give tax breaks to companies and individuals who move from quebec, they could use all the extra equalization money that they wouldn't be sending to quebec!

    After that, it's either Bienaide Social (separatists) or move out and get a job (everyone else). And then Press9 and friends would have what they want, a closed off province with only white, french, catholic people.
    They aren't racist though!

    - Quebecker of Tree Stump

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  84. @Quebecker of Tree Stump

    The best comment on this topic.

    But unfortunately, even if reality is biting him, a separatist will never understand the pure fact that Quebec as a new country will be impossible to manage.
    Everything is against this : geopolitics, world economy, even it's neighbors will be reluctant, people caught in between , etc.

    Too bad :(

    NM

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  85. "Did anyone ever talk about a corridor across Quebec to join east and western ends of Canada."

    Yes, on September 26, 2011 11:17 PM
    "everything from the Ontario border through to the US border and all the way to New Brunswick is going to stay in Canada"

    "That will already be accomplished by just taking back Northern Quebec that was ceded to Quebec during confederation."

    Well that would make for quite a long detour to reach New Brunswick... would have to take a ferry in Labrador and then Newfoundland too... I mean, look at a map.

    "You simply dimiss anglo and allo majority areas as if they don't exist."
    They do exist but not anywhere within these three regions:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/LocationCentre-du-Qu%C3%A9bec.png
    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:LocationChaudi%C3%A8re-Appalaches.png
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/LocationBas-Saint-Laurent.png

    As you can see, you would need them and even if you go through:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/LocationEstrie.png
    you cannot avoid the other two to reach New Brunswick.

    There is no single anglo town to be found there, do you want me to post all the stats for every single one of them? Reorganize those areas as you want and you'll still end up with an overall 99% French territory. Forget that they are "Quebec made administrative boundaries" you cannot even find a neighborhood with an English majority let alone a town anywhere within those boundaries. So if every single town gets to vote, you could not win any one of them.
    If you really have time to waste, you can look every single town there, check out the language section after choosing a municipality:

    http://www.recensement2006.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page_Hierarchy-Hierarchie.cfm?Lang=E&Tab=4&Geo1=HR&Code1=2404&Geo2=PR&Code2=24&Data=Count&SearchText=Drummondville&SearchType=Contains&SearchPR=24&B1=All&Custom=

    http://www.recensement2006.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page_Hierarchy-Hierarchie.cfm?Lang=E&Tab=4&Geo1=HR&Code1=2412&Geo2=PR&Code2=24&Data=Count&SearchText=Chaudiere&SearchType=Contains&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

    http://www.recensement2006.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page_Hierarchy-Hierarchie.cfm?Lang=E&Tab=4&Geo1=HR&Code1=2401&Geo2=PR&Code2=24&Data=Count&SearchText=Bas-Saint-Laurent&SearchType=Contains&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

    If you waste your time trying to find English communities in vain, don't blame me.
    Even those with English names are not English.

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  86. http://www.statman.ca/2011/09/montreal-french-language-change/

    Nice article ...

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  87. "Corporations would be facing:"

    Désolé de vous apprendre que vous n'êtes pas le premier fédéraste à brandir des épouvantails qui ne font plus peur à personne.Vos campagnes de peur sont franchement dépassées.

    Soyez un peu plus créatif s.v.p!

    Better luck next time :)

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  88. @Anon 10:45

    If we look back in history we see lot's of corporations flee Montreal due to language laws. So fleeing just because of language, imagine what a new country would feel like...
    You don't have to be very creative to understand and see reality.
    But for you guys, being creative and being a dreamer is a full time job.

    We had luck. You?

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  89. Désolé de vous apprendre que vous n'êtes pas le premier fédéraste à brandir des épouvantails qui ne font plus peur à personne.Vos campagnes de peur sont franchement dépassées.

    Je n'ai certainement pas toutes les réponses, je ne donne que mon opinion selon mes connaissances et mon expérience.

    Cependant j'attends encore qu'un séparatiste puisse m'expliquer comment la province pourrait être viable financièrement suite à la souveraineté. Et cela, sans fantaisies et rêves du genre "on va continuer à faire partie de l'économie Canadienne".
    Imaginons qu'on reçoit rien du fédéral (ils nous doivent rien, contrairement à ce que vous pensez)

    2011 - 2012 péréquation: (selon wikipedia)
    Quebec ($7.815 milliards)

    Tu pourrais rajouter des arguments à ton "non, c'est pas vrai!!!"

    - Quebecker Of Tree Stump

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  90. "imagine what a new country would feel like..."

    Sommes-nous aussi responsables de la débacle économique des ontariens?Et des américains,tant qu'à y être?Si oui,notre langue possède des pouvoirs jusqu'à maintenant insoupçonnées.

    Laissez-nous avoir des doutes sur les réelles raisons qui poussent certaines entreprises à éviter le Québec.

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  91. "Sommes-nous aussi responsables de la débacle économique des ontariens?Et des américains,tant qu'à y être?Si oui,notre langue possède des pouvoirs jusqu'à maintenant insoupçonnées.

    Laissez-nous avoir des doutes sur les réelles raisons qui poussent certaines entreprises à éviter le Québec. "

    You really don't understand anything ... you are stubborn and you fail. You fail so hard...

    The real fact is that companies are avoiding Q because of Q's laws regarding language,employment,unions...
    Like most of my predecessors i pray for Q to become independent. I really want to see all of you drowning in debt...i want so bad to see Q failing !

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  92. Anon 10:40,

    Can you not read? Or is it just that you want to respond back to what you wish I wrote, instead of what actually posted?

    Of course the northern route is a long detour. It is still a corridor. On the other Hand Quebec would loose its Northern resources, but I guess its an ok price to pay to loose all that Bob bourassa made up north in the 1980s. As for partition, it wouldn't necessarily mean that Quebec would need to seperate for it to happen. A better approach is when demographics are right to start to agitate for it even before.

    I also maintain what i said earlier. Why would partition of Anglo areas in Montreal and Western Quebec need a corridor through Quebec. Just as it effects Canada, the Canadian road network access is even more important for Quebec. One can even use to United states interstate system to drive from Ontario and partitioned parts of Western Quebec to New Brunswick.

    Canada would have to build a new railroad and highway in what was northern quebec, but it would still be alot cheaper then subsidizing ingrates in Quebec through equalization. Also all that profit from hydro electric power would help pay for alot of those infrastructure improvements. Heated High speed train corridor.

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  93. "Like most of my predecessors i pray for Q to become independent."

    J'espère que vous serez des nôtres au prochain référendum alors.Un conseil en passant:Calmez-vous un peu,il n'y a pas que l'argent dans la vie...

    Regardez ce qui arrive aux ricains lorsqu'ils cessent de rêver.

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  94. "J'espère que vous serez des nôtres au prochain référendum alors.Un conseil en passant:Calmez-vous un peu,il n'y a pas que l'argent dans la vie..."

    First of all, the next referendum will be when pigs will fly. Second, be sure that i will vote NO ( because i have judgement ) .

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  95. The International Court of Justice ruled that Kosovo's declaration of independence was not prohibited by international law.
    Kosovo hasn't been partitioned despite some towns having a Serb majority.
    Canada recognizes Kosovo as a sovereign state.
    We could argue there is a double standard. We could go to the international court.

    It doesn't matter that the north was given to Quebec. Declare independence of the province with its current boundaries and argue that partition is against international law. Do you seriously think Parizeau, with a PhD from the London School of Economics, would have wanted separation if he knew we would lose the north? We need it for hydro-electricity.

    Remember that Montreal wasn't given to Quebec and it always was a part of it from day one. So if you use that argument for the north we could do the same for Montreal or any other area in the south.

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  96. Calmez-vous un peu,il n'y a pas que l'argent dans la vie..

    Si ça ne te dérange pas de retourner à la ferme et avoir une qualité de vie qui ressemble à la révolution industrielle, c'est pour toi.

    Personnellement j'aimerais mieux conserver le niveau de vie qu'on y retrouve présentement, qui est financé en grande partie par le gouvernement fédéral (et les autres provinces).

    De plus, j'attends toujours ta réponse à mon message de 10:56.

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  97. "First of all, the next referendum will be when pigs will fly."

    Yes, just like many said in the eighties after the 1980 defeat but then 1995 (with a better result than in 1980) caught them by surprise after years of a non-separatist majority government.
    Yes, just like anyone saying that one day the NDP would dominate Quebec would have been called a lunatic just six months ago.
    Beware of a volatile electorate.
    I think years of a Conservative majority will change everything eventually.
    Trudeau and Chrétien tried and managed to convince many to vote no. Will Harper, who is quite unpopular here, be able to do the same with speeches?

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  98. Kosovo was due to NATO pounding the Serb Military. Canada is a NATO member and Quebec would not get any NATO protection to enforce boundaries. Also just because you say so doesn't mean you can stop partition. Funny how international law is only quoted when it suits quebec. I guess Parizeau likes to mix and match.

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  99. @anon 12:00

    They always ask questions in confusing language, telling Quebecois that they can have their cake and eat it too.

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  100. "Also just because you say so doesn't mean you can stop partition."

    Then do it! Why wait for independence? WHY? I never understood this. Please explain.
    Why can't Quebec be divided while it is a province of Canada? Seriously. Someone enlighten me.
    Why is it impossible now?

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  101. "Trudeau and Chrétien tried and managed to convince many to vote no. Will Harper, who is quite unpopular here, be able to do the same with speeches? "

    What are you suggesting here is that les quebecois are just a bunch of sheep that will vote driven by speeches.
    Dude, I'm sure that the electorate is quite matured to understand the true risks of becoming independent. Like someone above, I don't see many quebecois throwing their life to garbage and becoming farmers just for an ideal that for sure will become a nightmare.

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  102. In 1990 when someone in Brockville, Ontario stepped on a Quebec flag on TV, support for independence rose to 67% according to surveys of the time.

    Why didn't it happen just before the 1995 referendum :(

    So yes, the electorate isn't very mature and quite emotional.

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  103. I just don't get why Parizeau the economist wants an independent Quebec if it doesn't make sense financially.

    Are we told lies? Could it be that Canada makes money out of Quebec instead of spending money on it? Why is Harper so against it if it meant his precious Alberta wouldn't have to pay for it anymore?

    Either he's a really nice guy or he's hiding something...

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  104. "What are you suggesting here is that les quebecois are just a bunch of sheep that will vote driven by speeches."

    Je dirais plutôt que les Québécois sont des baromètres très sensibles aux pressions instables en provenance du canada anglais.

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  105. YOU FOOLS! No long term vision whatsoever.
    Montreal returning to its roots... No it's not!
    Are you blind? While you are all arguing about language, 50,000 mostly non-White immigrants arrive each year! And they have many babies! Their share of the population increases every day.
    Blacks, Muslims, Hispanics... forget about language, it's all about race and religion.

    Montreal will become a new Detroit, not a White Anglo-Saxon city. It's already falling apart...
    The author wrote of a tipping point... Yeah, when non-Whites will become the majority. I don't even think most will speak English.

    I'm glad I don't live in Montreal anymore.

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  106. Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

    "Soon François Legault will be elected."

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  107. @ PHIL

    He's been leading in the polls for months now.
    If he doesn't win, who will?
    Charest and his Liberals, with all the corruption scandals?
    Pauline? Definitely not.

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  108. Yeah, I rather vote Liberals than Pauline/Legault...

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  109. @anon 12:46

    Who said anything about a white anglo saxon city. Majority of North America does not have anglo saxon cities. Montreal was more like detroit in the 1980s and 1990s when entire parts of the city were dying. Especially in Point St Charles. Anyway you probably would be better off moving to the appalachains.

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  110. @12:05

    There is a time and place. That corridor to the ontario border isn't complete. It took the creation of the PQ after many years to achieve what it did. Eqaulity party was around 20 years ago. Was a beginning. It ain't impossible for something new.

    Whatever the case, as I mentioned before you still can't prevent partition.

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  111. @ EVERYBODY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1CwZgb_iAI

    Don't forget this !

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  112. "JUST FUCK OFF AND LEAVE OUR REGIONS ALONE. YOU DON'T LIVE THERE. WE DO. YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT OUR REGIONS. WE CANNOT BE FORCED TO JOIN ANYTHING OR MOVE ANYWHERE IF WE DON'T WANT TO. IT'S CALLED DEMOCRACY, YOU FASCIST."

    What an ironic comment coming from a Quebec nationalist fascist pig who repeatedly tells Quebec Anglophones to move out of the province, even if we were born here and lived here for our entire lives.

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  113. No, that was directed at the guy who wants to force Francophone regions that he knowns nothing about and never inhabitated to remain in Canada against their will. It wasn't an "inclusive" fuck off, it was only directed at one person.

    In French I was would have said décrisse and not décrissez if you understand what I mean. I should have worded it differently.

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  114. And I should reread myself when I rewrite a part before posting: knows, not knowns lol.

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  115. What an ironic comment coming from a Quebec nationalist fascist pig who repeatedly tells Quebec Anglophones to move out of the province, even if we were born here and lived here for our entire lives.

    You have to remember that they really believe they aren't being racist, but only protecting their "culture" and "language".
    Their politicians are racist in their public speeches and debates.. And these are people with a university education.

    You expect the farmers and Jean-Guys to act smarter??

    They are French-only extremists, being racist against anyone different is entirely normal, and part of their everyday life. It's fully acceptable, and encouraged.
    "Québécois de souche" = White, french, catholic. AND NOTHING ELSE DAMN IT, ON EN VEUT PAS!

    It's like trying to tell a white farm owner from South-Carolina in the 1800s that slavery is wrong. They just won't understand.

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    Replies
    1. Most of the things which truly made French-Canadian culture distinctive within Canada (such as the cultural influence and dominance of the Catholic Church, Quebecois farm life, etc.) were swept away during the Quiet Revolution.

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  116. "What an ironic comment coming from a Quebec nationalist fascist pig who repeatedly tells Quebec Anglophones to move out of the province, even if we were born here and lived here for our entire lives."

    All very simple really, your not pure laine and therfore are a second class citizen in Quebec. The pure laines have for the most part the highest feeling of entitlement in Canada. Their optics are entirely blinded by these feeling that they are better than the ROC and somebody must owe them something. Look at how Quebec dumps on the ROC but anything in the reverse is referred to as Quebec Bashing or bigotry, when, in fact it is the "pure laines" who are the real bigots with their language laws which favor one language by discriminating against others. This is clearly evidenced by the Macleans articl a few months ago depicting Quebec as the most corrupt province in Canada. I recall Charest denouncing this article and demanding a retraction and apology, as did many federal politicians such as Mulcair. Well, they could denounce all they wanted to at the time, but recent events has made it clear that Macleans had it right.

    Of course the pure laines blame it on the Anglos and the feds when in fact they are the majority in Quebec and are responsible for electing the government of the day. Pointing the finger at others is easy as opposed to pointing the finger at yourself and admitting your mistakes.

    I have worked with many people from Quebec and when their is controversy over something gone bad they invariably start pointing the finger at others to identify a scapegoat for their own incompetence.

    And then they call others fascists and bigots!!!

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  117. "your not pure laine and therfore are a second class citizen in Quebec. The pure laines have for the most part the highest feeling of entitlement in Canada."

    What?!? Have you not seen the comment on September 27, 2011 12:49 AM
    According to people like him (and I have read similar comments in the past, here and on other sites many times) we have no right being here despite being Canadian citizens as much as him. Notice I am not even saying anything about being here before or being the majority. I am talking about simple equality.

    The highest feeling of entitlement in Canada? Plenty of people in English Canada speak of being the only "real" Canadians all the time.

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  118. "You expect the farmers and Jean-Guys to act smarter??"

    You are racist towards both farmers and people named Jean-Guy.

    Yes because there are no anti-French Anglophones... Keep always blaming just one side.

    One only needs to compare comments on both CBC News and Radio-Canada to see which side has the most intolerant people... it's not Francophones calling for deportation of millions of people all the time and getting more thumbs up than thumbs down... Never seen anything as intolerant and approved of on the French side.

    I lived in Oshawa, Ontario for three years as a child and trust me there are plenty of intolerant people on the other side. Of course if you never go on the other side you'll never know and think it goes just one way.

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  119. "Notice I am not even saying anything about being here before or being the majority. I am talking about simple equality."

    Francophones are given equal treatment or in some cases preferential treatment in Canada (i.e. Quebec dairy farmers are guaranteed 50% of the Canadian market), but there is no equality for Anglophones in Quebec.


    "The highest feeling of entitlement in Canada? Plenty of people in English Canada speak of being the only "real" Canadians all the time."

    You can hardly blame some people in English Canada for not considering the Quebecois to be full-fledged members of the federation. All some Quebecois do is attack Canadians in the rest of Canada and blame the federal government for their problems, and they threaten separation if they don't get their way.

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  120. You might also like this article: It's called: A Xenophobic Quebec

    http://www.statman.ca/2011/09/caq-immigration-xenophobic-quebec/

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  121. @anon 4:42

    Despite some racism in parts of English Canada you still have more visible and ethnic minorities in smaller urban centres such as Oshawa then anywhere outside hull and Montreal in Quebec.

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  122. Arrêtez de nous emmerder avec votre péréquation, Terre-Neuve, l'Ontario, le Nouveau-Brunswick en obtiennent, vous ne les faites pas chier avec ça. Le Québec contribue fiscalement à la cagnotte fédérale. À partir de cette prémisse, arrêtez de nous rabattre vos conneries. La générosité sans intérêt, ça n'existe pas. Et puis tant qu'on y est vive le Québec libre et indépendant !

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  123. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  124. Sorry but when it comes to the French/English pissing contest over who "owns" Quebec or whose roots/traditions are older, shouldn't both sides admit that the NATIVE PEOPLES trump everyone? French and English arguing over something that was stolen from the Native people. Geez Louise, that takes balls.

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  125. @10:43

    stop overdosing on Poutine. Quebec is fiscal parasite.

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  126. Bilingual balance is possible. Join https://www.facebook.com/MontrealConcordiaSalus

    I have to say though, that the article, although interesting, seems to be biased towards the anglophone perspective and some images of the old 'bilingual' Montreal spell a different reality about the store owners at the time.

    Institutional and commercial bilingualism gives all the power of living in one language, if they foolishly decide to do so, to the individual. And that is real freedom, not freedom of commercial and government expression.

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