Truth be told, if the Mafia led a federalist party that promised unlimited English rights, but as a trade-off mob style corruption, we would have voted for them in droves.
Come to think of it, we did!
But the war over English language rights and Quebec sovereignty is over, both suffering an ignominious and lasting defeat, raising the question as to whether we should continue to support the aging Liberals or bolt to the CAQ.
So let's take stock of where we are.
It seems to me, that vis-a-vis Anglo rights, we have sunk as low as we can go.
No party is willing to increase those rights and none, even the PQ is looking to further erode our community. It is a question of kicking the proverbial dead horse when it's down, and where retribution against the Anglo community for real or imagined slights is no longer a driving voter issue.
In fact, gratuitously picking on the Anglo community is probably viewed by the majority of francophone voters as a bit mean-spirited and certainly uncalled for given the circumstances, and like a dominant sports team pummelling the opposition, running up the score is viewed as poor sportsmanship.
Sadly for us, Anglos no longer matter in Quebec, neutralized as a political or economic force over the last forty years that saw Anglo companies and Anglo children driven out of the province to the point where we are today, like the PQ, an irrelevant and spent political force.
If as a voter you are asking yourself which party will better represent Anglo interests, don't bother.
Even the dead-in-the-water PQ represent no further threat to English language rights and even if the party theoretically came to power, it's policy about the French language would probably target the francophone community where the last fight that the PQ can mount would be an effort to limit Francophones learning English. Just about the only idea left to the moribund PQ is perhaps extending Bill 101 to English cegeps, restricting francophone access, which honestly would just open up places for Anglophones who don't have the astronomical marks needed to gain entrance as today's heightened standards are directly related to the pressure of French enrolment.
But paradoxically, accepting the reality of our Anglo situation in Quebec, that is, that the present situation is as good as it gets, can be liberating.
We can choose to leave or choose to stay in Quebec under these conditions, but if we stay we'll be free to look at other issues when choosing between the CAQ or the Liberals.
So the following critique is sadly devoid of any discussion of the different party's position on Anglo rights because they are essentially the same.
It is hard to fault the Couillard Liberals over good government, but nonetheless, they are doomed to lose the next election.
The overriding job off the government is to manage the public purse as responsibly as possible and on this account the Liberals have done a pretty good job, in fact, better than any other provincial government, eliminating the deficit and making a dent in Quebec's massive debt.
I know it's an unpopular concept for voters who don't see the benefits of austerity, but nonetheless, those tangible benefits are real.
Balancing the budget and reducing debt has a twofold effect which we should all understand and consider.
First is that when government balances the budget, the interest on the debt over time becomes less onerous.
Let me explain by way of example.
Consider a family who twenty-five years ago bought a home for $250,000 with a $50,000 down and a mortgage of $200,000 with fixed monthly payment of say $1,3000 a month. Over the years, the mortgage payment is fixed, but the family income perhaps doubles, making the mortgage payment half as painful as when first assumed.
It is the same for government debt.
If we can just freeze the amount of debt, inflation will reduce the impact of carrying that debt over the years.
Now paying government debt is an added bonus, somewhat like making an extra payment on your mortgage which some banks allow, which has the effect of paying off the debt sooner.
In the case of governments paying off debt, one can assume that every billion dollars paid down, represents an annual interest saving of about $50 million dollars, money that can be redirected into government spending programs.
Over the last two budgets, Quebec has paid off $7 billion in debt, freeing up an additional $350 million in money that it saves on interest, money that can be spent otherwise. According to projections, the Quebec government will pay off another $14 billion in debt over the next four years, freeing up another $700 million in recovered money that would otherwise be spent on interest.
While it isn't sexy, it is what good government is about and on this account, full marks for the Liberals.
“S&P Global last week raised Quebec’s rating to AA-minus from A-plus, citing “strong budget surpluses and declining debt burden.” That put Quebec’s S&P rating above Ontario’s, which is Canada’s most populous province, for the first time since 2006.” LinkAusterity is controversial because it reduces government services across the board and so it's biggest opponents are those who are penalized, those who pay little or no tax, but receive benefits. For them, the free ride on the back of real taxpayers is a gravy train that they don't want to see pulling out of the station. Although most of the pain of austerity has been borne by middle-class public employees who have seen their contracts rolled back, it is the vocal non-payers who bellyache the loudest.
All this good news must be tempered by the fact that other Canadians are subsidizing this new found fiscal responsibility.
Good as the Liberal effort is in paying down the debt and balancing the budget, the elephant in the room remains the equalization payment made to Quebec by Ottawa on behalf of Canadian taxpayers. Out of the annual $11 billion equalization gift from Ottawa, other Canadian taxpayers pay $8.7 billion of that amount (the other part is paid by Quebec taxpayers.) This gift from other Canadians represents about 10% of the Quebec budget, something nobody in Quebec is willing to admit.
Nobody except Francois Legault, leader of the CAQ who said this;
“What I want to tell Quebecers is that a CAQ government will aim for zero equalization. A CAQ government will eliminate the wealth gap with the rest of Canada. A CAQ government will have ambition, will aim high for Quebec.”Them's fighting words!
With the language war over, it is perhaps time to get down to sound, responsible government and working towards prosperity that will provide the government with the funds needed to help those who need help the most.
A new government, unburdened by responsibility for policies created in the past can look at each problem with fresh eyes, unencumbered by history... a veritable fresh start.
There are many things that could be changed, that should be changed.
- The antiquated and failed CEGEP system.
- A bureaucratic and overburdened health care system.
- A bloated and inefficient public service, which also goes for the school board system.
- A new approach to protection and expansion of French in Quebec without placing the burden of change on the Anglophone community.
- A new approach towards entrepreneurship and business.
- Abandoning 'grand' schemes and costly white elephant programs
- A realistic approach to costly 'green' energy projects that waste billions.
Given the conservative roots of the CAQ and the abandonment of nationalist policies, I'm ready to give them their shot.
And so Canada's two largest provinces, making up more than half of Canada's population are turning towards conservative governments and it remains to be seen what they will accomplish.
But one thing I know for sure is that if I were Justin, I'd be very anxious.
"Given the conservative roots of the CAQ and the abandonment of nationalist policies, I'm ready to give them their shot. "
ReplyDeleteAnd the cat is out of the bag.... The Editor being a member of the 1% and a Conservative, of course is Touting NeoLiberal Economic policies that benefit Him, and leave the Middle Class paying the bill!!!
Trust the CAQ, he says... Trust them on Education, and Health Care and Infrastructure... areas where historically Neoliberal Conservatives always Cut so they can grant themselves the Tax Cuts they so Richly Demand... and the Editor makes NO Mention of at all!!
Trust the CAQ, that has already expressed a willingness to get rid of English School Boards, in an Austerity Measure that benefits NOT the English community... and would require a Constitutional Amendment to Boot.. Opening the very Door to a Quebec-Ottawa confrontation always used By French Nationalists to justify their need to penalize the English community.
Austerity is GOOD says the Neoliberal Conservative Editor, who is not interested that We, in Quebec, are in the process of Building a 2-tiered Health Care system... because he is in the Top Tier and does not worry about receiving Timely Health care service, while We in the Lower classes spend the longest time in the developed world, waiting for services in our provincial Emergency rooms...
Make no mistake, I am NOT advocating for voting again for the Quebec Liberal party.... anyone who knows me knows that I consider them exactly as EVIL as the PQ... But I feel the same way about the CAQ also.... and If we here in Quebec have Not learned the Lessons of Our American Cousins, regarding the effects on Life and Community of voting for Conservative Neoliberal governments, Then we deserve the Fate historically ordained by the Editors outrageous Suggestions... Vote CAQ at your Own Peril!!!
If the Editor is right, and on this I do agree with him, that the Sovereignty debate is Dead, And you want to send the Liberals a Message and reclaim any political influence our community has left, then Do NOT VOTE for the Neoliberal Liberals... Do NOT VOTE For the Neoliberal Conservative CAQ... Vote, instead, for the Democratic Socialism of Bernie Sanders and Quebec Solidaire!!! If the Fear of Sovereignty drives you, just remember that the Road to Partition, only Follows Separation....
It is time for a REAL Change in Quebec... and The CAQ, will only Leave us in the Malodorous Reality its Very Name Creates in our Minds...
I think the CAQ is the less bad of the bunch but thats not necessarily saying much. I have such a dim view of politicians that I feel in the end what you dont want is keeping the same party in power for too long. The Liberals have been in power far too long in Quebec and are totally corrupted. I will give them credit for balancing the books but when you get 11 billion per year from the rest of canada that shouldnt be too hard.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Allan in the sense that we have swung far too much to the left here in Quebec over the past 30-40 years..with social programs left centre and right that are far too generous..a bloated public service..unions that are far too powerful..and a population that is just so entitled. Its time to move towards the right and the CAQ is far from a true right wing party but its about as far to the right as Quebec will ever get. We need to continue to cut the debt..lower the heaviest tax burden in north america and cut waste..there is a ton of waste in Quebec government..a ton.
Quebec Solidaire is la-la land on steroids..free everything..tax the rich to death..in an ideal fairy tale world this might work but rich people are smart..they will either leave and take their money with them or they will use their high powered lawyers and accountants to find loopholes to avoid paying more taxes. Lets face it we need rich people to pay the taxes that fund all the socialist programs around us. If only the deadbeats and middle class are left then where does the money come to fund all these pie in the sky programs.
Guaranteed income..nice idea but another way to encourage people to do nothing..we need less of this mentality. Free university..great so students will waste even more time at univsersity trying to figure out what they want. Believe me when I was at university I worked hard because it was expensive and I didnt want to spend any more time than needed and I was focused.
Its time to get back to basics and away from this leftist idealistic la-la land crap that just doesnt work in the real world..the CAQ is the right move at this point.
However I expect the CAQ to dissappoint..notably in its treatment of anglos and also not sure in the end they will be better at balancing the books and also devoid of corruption. Corruption seems to be an inherent quality of any politician espcially in Quebec.
Mr. Sauga here: OMG! Lookee here...this blog has taken a defeatist attitude. Then again, the minorities have taken a defeatist attitude, but that goes back to the days of Bill 22 started by none other than the supposed federalist party...and Quebec keeps on dropping.
ReplyDeleteThe CAQers scoff at $11 billion easy money? When pigs could fly will they scoff at what the hell ever they can chisel from the rest of us. Slough off all that easy money. Don't make me laugh. If anyone believes that's ever going to happen, you believe in fairies, Santa Claus and even Linus's Great Pumpkin!
Based on Philip's blog and the two comments above, I hope the QS would win. HEY! Free everything, and tax the s--t out of the rich. That will send the minorities scurrying for the borders faster than the speed of Superman! Since the minorities make up 20% of the population and 40% of the tax base, what incentive would the affluent have for staying in Quebec, unless it is partitioned?
Despite the exodus of the minorities, those that are left still hold $8 of wealth for every $3 the Francophones hold, and yet you call the Anglo community defeated? It has acted defeated since Bill 22 passed into law in mid-1974, so here is the same old same old 44 years later. Too bad, but those of you who have chosen to stay deserve it. Any minorities now aged 65 or under, you have fully gotten what you deserve for your complacency. 44 years ago, you were aged 21 or under. When this whole language B.S. started, I was age 16, and my mind was made up that very summer that I'd complete my cheap Quebec post-secondary education, take what the Quebec government invested in my future the hell outta there, and I've never looked back. Even if you are aged as much as age 70, you were still in your mid-20s and just starting your careers when Bill 22 passed into law, so you were still young enough in your careers to opt to go elsewhere. You chose to remain in the loser state, you had your chances to leave the sinking ship, but you chose to stay put like sitting ducks.
Howard Galganov gave you once last hurrah to do something and at great expense to him personally, but too many of you chose to bump on a log. The fact Galganov has become a nut job wannabe American over the years is beside the point, but he personally wrote me when asked that the Americans support his blog monetarily, so he finally left Quebec disillusioned, and has gone where the better business is. At least he can go to the grave knowing he gave the minorities his best.
« the minorities make up 20% of the population and 40% of the tax base »
DeleteI heard this figure before. I have looked for a source or something but could not find anything. I am interested in knowing where this information comes from.
@michel patrice
Deleteit's a lie from beryl wasjman. he said that in a cjad interview ten years ago.
it's funny sauga repeats this thing in every single comment when all it would really show if it were true is that the proportion of french in quebec's 5% richest is not the same as in the population, i.e. roughly 80%. which only shows in my humble opinion that there was a time when "minorities" ruled, and they still do by the way, and grabbed all they could while it lasted. here's the funny bit: i think sauga "thinks" that it shows "minorities" work harder, or are less lazy than the french. twisted isn't it?
Those who follow this blog know that I am a relentless fact checker.
DeleteI have never found a scintilla of evidence that Anglos or ethnics contribute more taxes than francophones.
Facts are facts...
I know that you are a fact checker. I haven't found any evidence of this either.
DeleteStill, I am interested in knowing where this idea comes from. I have once or twice argued with people supporting this idea and I found quite interesting to see all the assumptions and theories that they came up with to support the idea. I have once asked Beryl Wasjman himself over a forum but I have unfortunately never got an answer.
I have been wondering about this also. I hear people on here all the time say that but have never seen a source for these numbers. I find it hard to believe that 40 percent of taxes are paid by non-francophone but I believe the non-francophones likely pay a significantly higher share but perhaps its 25 percent for 20 percent of the population not the 40 percent number.
DeleteI have found this : https://imgur.com/a/HHhjc
DeleteThe graph shows that non-immigrants in Québec pay around 7,000$ per year (2005) and that immigrants pay around 4,500$ par year. More recent immigrants pay 2,000$, the situation is of course more difficult for recent immigrants. Those who immigrated before 1991 do better yet still pay 6,000$, 1,000$ below the average.
These facts seem to contradict your feelings.
(There is a confusion between non-francophones and immigrants. The non-francophone category includes both immigrants and old stock anglophones who have been here for generations. Those old stock anglos could boost the tax share paid by the non-franco category, but since the mid-90s, bilingual francophones earn more than both unilingual and bilingual anglos (and unlilingual francos earn about the as unlingual anglos) (https://i2.wp.com/michelpatrice.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/revenus-vs-langue.png?ssl=1&w=450))
So it seems that immigrants pay a samller share of taxes in relation with their number.
Mr. Sauga here: You answered the question yourselves. My source was Beryl Wajsman. I watched the last election I believe it was on CTV News Channel since I live in Ontario. On the panel that night were Beryl Wajsman and Andy Newman among others. I can't remember who represented the [place retch here] péquistes, either Jean-François "Let's decapitate the minorities" Lisée or that acid-carrying woman CJAD for some completely idiotic reason hired and she bolted at the first amenable opportunity...I thankfully forget her name because she is forgettable. Wajsman clearly stated the 20/40 fact during the broadcast. Can't he be sued for libel or slander if his facts are so untrue?
DeleteSauga. You are just a broken record who repeats the same mantra over and over. Not everyone can just pack up and leave like you. I actually moved here from western canada so I am not a born and bred Quebecer. I moved her because of the nature of my work which is quite focused with little opportunities elsewhere and also for family reasons. Honestly I cant say I have suffered that much over the past 15 years other than feeling second class at times..but financially have done well..montreal is a very interesting and lively city much more fun than any other canadian city..housing was dirt cheap when I got here compared to anywhere else and still is relatively cheap..education is way cheaper..great daycare compared to any other province..and so on. So its not all bad Sauga and the Quebec economy is actually one of the strongest now and our debt situation is better than Ontario at this point..so dont be too smug Mr.Sauga.
ReplyDeleteThe reality is that we are not in the majority in terms of political power and we never will be so we have to live with bill 101. It has resulted in more trilingual people than any other place in Canada which is a pretty strong asset in my opinion.
Mr. Sauga here. OK, complicated. I don't feel anybody should be made to feel second class for a second. Since you only relocated 15 years ago, I suppose you weighed the pros and cons and made your decision there. I think that puts you in the minority (if you'll pardon the pun) because I for one, and hundreds of thousands more didn't ask for xenophobic nationalism, ergo we left.
DeleteFor those who have chosen to stay and shut up, more power to them, but what I find most abhorrent about all this is most who chose to stay, at least while Gord Sinclair was alive and kicking at CJAD were endlessly moaning and groaning about their mistreatment day after day after day after day...You used to have that lunchtime feature "Free for All" with Sinclair, Melanie King, Andrew Carter, Tommy Schnurmacher and one or two others who moaned and bitched about it practically every single day. I only heard them when I was in town, so I'd tune in about once every 2-3 months when I came into town that frequently and they'd seemingly pick up where I heard them last leave off. It's like those old soap operas where if you missed episodes for a month, you could tune in and the storyline would have barely changed! OMG!
It was the same thing with Barry Wilson's Friday commentaries on CFCF. Endless bitching about the persecution of the minorities. On and on and on and on... Like listening a little kids cries to Mommy because the neighbour's kid called the little one a baby.
How infantile! Instead of this whining is why I constantly write "don't just sit there, do something", but nobody does or has since Howard Galganov, and he wasn't well supported for his monumental efforts all those years ago.
Yes, complicated, Quebec's fiscal position for the first time in decades upon decades is doing well enough to even get a small Standard and Poor's uptick on its bond rating, but for how long?
It is very, very easy to say, "don't just sit there, do something." Motivating the masses, when no one issue turns the entirety of that populace on a dime, is the real task.
DeleteWhy don't we take a chance on an independent or two? Granted, they might be soundly trounced, but they're getting experience points. They'll get an idea how the game works, and we'll see if they truly have what it takes to deal with the big boys.
I really like the idea of voting for an independant. But good luck convincing most people especially the anglos who are married to the liberals. I am not enamoured by any political party in quebec nor in canada. My perfect party would be a blend of principles and values from all the parties. A good independant could work for the interests of his or her small region.
DeleteHey, if we're otherwise sitting ducks, there's nothing left for us to lose.
DeleteDon't just stand there, do something, Sauga says.
ReplyDeleteWho's got the moola for that?
Mr. Sauga here. Melancholic, I can't answer your question. I don't know your approximate age (are you a recent graduate from school or no, are you well established in your career area or just starting out, etc. etc. etc). I don't know if you're looking to invest in your future or much of your life is already behind you. I guess if you're a lower wage earner or simply unwilling or unable to move, I suppose you're a sitting duck.
DeleteIf the Liberal, CAQ, QS and even the PQ really want the Anglo vote, here are 2 simple thing to start with. #1 Have a real English debate in the 2018 election and have Maya Johnson or Mutsumi be the debate moderator , instead of having 30 seconds of news video or small interview of saying the Liberals take are votes for granted and to Liberal case pretending to say "We like you. We really do like you. #2 Many of us Anglophone and even allophones would love to see Bill 101 gone forever, but sadly it's never gonna happen. But if they leave it as is " no more new rules and laws ". Many Anglo and allophones would be happy for the most part. We are just tired of seeing new rules within rules within rules. Just simply leave it as is please. If the CAQ can say that and do that, I would guaranteed that CAQ would get over 50%+1 of the Anglo vote.
ReplyDeleteI would like to add this is the same party (the CAQ) that wanted to sign Bill 14 ( the new Bill 101 ) when the PQ were in power. We are not like gold fish with a memory of 3 seconds, So saying one thing in English news and media then saying the complete opposite in the French news and media. We are not stupid, we understand French. We want real proof that you want are vote. Because 90% of Anglo still do not trust the CAQ at the word.
Like the old saying " i believe it when i see it " I remember a old postscript Barry Wilson did in 2012 and 2014. When it comes to the Anglo vote it like picking the lesser evils. The Liberal pretends to like us and only care about our vote. The CAQ constantly tell us the Liberals take are votes for granted ( which they do ) but they keep saying they want to make bill 101 stronger. And the PQ well do I have to go in detail, we all know what they plan is. So the most of us the choice is easy , we rather be like for 1 month every 4 years then be hated every day.
If the liberals win the next election they have 100 days to help us, if not it the same old story.
Every day I see people write in and say I never gonna vote liberals again but when it comes Election Day and we have that piece of paper in are hands, 95% of us go back to the liberals because the alternative is worst.
If the liberals ever keep their word to us Anglo they would of done it years ago like after the 2003 election or the 2008 election or even after the 2014 election. People have moved on language politics and the whole referendum stuff. It always the same people that bring up the old fight.
Most of us made are peace, it doesn't matter how good are French is and that we will never be equal to the separatist leaders and people and even to the liberals we are not equal to their eyes. We are not true Quebecers to there eyes. Even if we do are very best to speak french and be apart of "Culture québécoise" . We will always be considered " Les autre "
So like usual most of us, if not all of us will vote for liberals again even tho we all know what they say to us Anglophone are lies.
you guys should all vote for the pq and quebec's independance in droves. so once in your lifetime, after independance, you'll get the chance to experience better democracy and vote over something else than separation or no separation. and think about it it's quite natural for a nation to long for full control on it's relations with other nations, it's money, it's laws, etc. so even though you all keep saying the debate is over well it's not. so if you are so canadian that you can't imagine youself living in another country, well you should go there. if you prefer to stay in quebec, which is your home, just let the 80% majority have a proper country. the very next day after quebec is independant, pq will disappear, explode or implode. quebec solidaire will lead a left wing coalition and caq will remain as the center-right movement. there would even be an anglo party with 15-20 ridings and the balance of power in case of minority governments. everyone would win.
DeleteMr. Sauga here. Unidentified anonymous writer, the Liberals (PLQ) stabbed the English language and the minorities way back with the assent of Bill 22 back in mid-1974 under then-premier Robert Bourassa, so forget 2003 and later years. I've mentioned many times this goes back now 44 years. Just 14½ years later, in late 1988, Bourassa buried his knife again in the middle of the minorities' collective back with Bill 178, an exercise of the 1982 Constitution's Notwithstanding clause where he overrode where the Constitution allowed English, primarily on commercial signs but in other areas as well. Between Bourassa, Daniel Johnson Jr., Jean Charest and Philippe Couillard, these are four Liberal premiers who have turned their backs constantly on the minorities. The MNAs representing the PLQ have been such cowardly quislings, yes-people and kapos that they're completely useless.
DeleteThere hasn't been a single MNA representing minority/English language constituencies since three who resigned en masse in early 1989 as opposed to voting for anti-English legislation (Bill 178) they consciously knew was against themselves and the constituents they represented (namely Richard French, Clifford Lincoln and Herbert Marx). The Mount Royal riding contained the first quisling who screwed his own constituents named John Ciaccia. He represented family members and friends of mine, and turned his back on them shamelessly and impudently.
Sadly, Ciaccia was the first and every last non-Francophone representing predominantly English speaking ridings since Ciaccia could be counted on for behaving like kapos.
Since then, that nauseatingly homely, transsexual woman with white hair (or she looks like one) who is high in the Solidarité party was given the task BY THE LIBERALS to make those so-called English ridings much bigger so minority representation was even more marginalized.
Sadly, minority votes are so marginalized, I think it's simply worth bringing back the Equality Party to ensure the Liberals don't win English default votes. They don't deserve your vote, but if the race is tight, what's the difference if the PLQ or one of the separatist splinter parties doesn't win. At least it'll give you a real party representing you a chance to win. Even if representation by Equality is small like it was in 1989, it's better to be marginally represented than not at all.
Mr. Sauga here: student, I'm on your side but for a completely different agenda. If you guys separate, the rest of us will have a festivus knowing we don't have to dish out more money to your kind than your kind puts into the federal system, and good luck! Your kind are predominantly welfare bums who don't want to work and have the government put out for you! Your desire to separate works for the rest of us! Now convince enough people to separate. Your kind has tried twice without success, and you're no closer now to succeeding than you were in 1995.
DeleteUh huh student. It sounds so simple and easy..very black and white thinking mate. First of all many of the 80 percent do not want to seperate from Canada. There is maybe a core 30-35 percent of the population thats obsessed about seperating hence why Quebec is still in Canada. And you know very well that anglos and most immigrants are never going to vote for a seperatist party so why even try.
ReplyDeleteThe reality is that its complicated..we have a majority non-francophone city Montreal within a majority francophone province within a majority anglophone country. So why does Quebec get to decide and not Montrealers or Canadians?
The reality is that 95 percent of politicians are liars and opportunists and most of us vote for the party we least dislike which is very sad but its our reality. So the next election many people will plug their noses and attempt to pick their least hated party. All 4 major parties are pretty dismal..I say the CAQ deserves a chance and has the highest likelihiodd of bringing positive change but I still have little confidence that they will deliver even half of what they promise.
@complicated
Delete"First of all many of the 80 percent do not want to seperate from Canada."
I think most french canadian, if you ask them do you want more autonomy for quebec, do you think quebec should have control over its immigration, do you think quebec should have control over its economy or do you think quebec should have control over its ties with france, china, etc, or if you ask do you think quebec should keep the queen you can imagine the way an overwhelming majority would respond. it means french quebec is nationalist. all sort of circumstances can bring these people to vote no, the most powerful one being the fear of losing what they have.
very little will tell you no all this should remain in ottawa because the neighboring nation knows better than us, and even less will tell you all this should remain in ottawa because anyway french canadians are part of the canadian nation.
all this to help you understand that the yes-no issue will remain until quebec's independance, so anglophones should just go for it, be a part of it, vote pq, vote yes and then constitute an english party to make sure their interests are taken into account, and with 15% of the vote in a proportional electoral scheme, they are sure to have a powerful stance in the republic.
"And you know very well that anglos and most immigrants are never going to vote for a seperatist party so why even try."
of course i assume that things can change. if you don't well i don't think we can have a fruitful conversation.
"I say the CAQ deserves a chance and has the highest likelihiodd of bringing positive change..."
i don't think so, their main voter base is nationalist people who don't want quebec's independance, which is a total contradiction. people who want quebec to have more autonomy, but are afraid to go all the way. unlike you i don't want contradictory wusses to rule the province.
How much more autonomy does Quebec need. I mean you already have QPP, some control over immigration, lots of control over the economy and on and on. Quebec is more than halfway there already in controlling everything. Yes a few nuisances like the queens role are there but if anything its more symobolic than anything.
DeleteIf Quebecers really were desperate to seperate then the Bloc Quebecois and the PQ would be polling a lot better than they do. Personally I find Quebecers are never happy..the economy is booming, debt is down, taxes are going lower, lowest tuition in the country, massive spending on infrastructure, cheapest day care, most generous social programs and yet Quebecers still seem unhappy.
I can guarantee even if one day Quebec did seperate there would still be as much unhappiness then as there is now nad probably more as they realize they would lose 10-20 billion per year from the rest of canada. It has something to do with the entitlement mentality..Quebecers think they are owed all these great services which they have mainly because of the massive transfers from the rest of Canada.
Student is a typical Quebec solidaire pie in the sky socialist who thinks every problem can be solved by giving everyone free eduction, free income, free day care, free everything and just tax the rich and big corporations and the middle class to death. I havelived in France and have seen this socialist plan in action..tons of people on aide sociale with no motivation or interest to work, students who change their mind every 3 months about what they want to study and who take longer to finish their programs because everything is free, chronic high unemployment because businesses are over regulated and taxed to death. Sorry but Quebec is bad enough with its extreme leftist bias. The CAQ at least will try to steer us a bit to the right but dont worry as we will still be very socialist.
Mr. Sauga here: Tsk tsk tsk! complicated, you've been a regular contributor to this blog for a long time à la moi. student is nothing but a s**t disturber. I responded to him, but I would suggest keeping your responses to him shorter, like I did.
DeleteI confess I got frustrated for a while because I'm fed up with those who have chosen to remain despite this whole nationalist shtick was created with Bill 22 44 years ago. Go further back to the St. Leonard riots and we've hit the half century mark.
I just became fed up because those who chose to stay are still moaning and groaning. I figured those who chose to stay would have fought, and it only came to a head at one time in the 90s when Howard Galganov spent energy along with money to try, got a dire lack of support, and finally left in frustration.
I'm one of hundreds of thousands that saw early on the great fight would not take place so I left the day after my university convocation. I literally stopped the car on Hwy 40/417 right before the Ontario border, had my mother drive the car over the border, and I walked out of Quebec like I said I would eight years earlier when Bill 22 was passed into law by what I thought was supposed to be a federalist ruling party.
For some, I guess leaving has become a financial impossibility, for others they see the positives outweighing the negatives, but the complaining no longer holds water, regretfully.
I hear you Mr.Sauga. I will admit that when I first moved here i WAS floored by what was going on here..I was pretty naive in thinking quebec was like any other place I lived in Canada. It is very different as you point out..I feel that up is down and down is up here.
DeleteThere just isnt enough anglos to fight a battle against the overwhelming francophone majority. There is no way to get rid of bill 101 and to bring english on an equal footing as french..will never happen. So now we just try to keep the seperatists out of power and hope with time younger francophones continue to shun the nationalist parties.
I think the economy will be the real test. We have had a strong economy for many years..but I suspect sometime in the next few years a recession may pop up which would be a trigger for a move towards seperatist parties. The seperatists would argue that they can manage the economy better and so on.
I fortunately didnt grow up here when the english were delegated to second class status so I donthave that bitterness. However after living here for many years it does get annoying to always feel guilty for speaking english.
Mr. Sauga here: Yup complicated, you're right about racism rising to the surface when the economy tanks, so inevitably the xenophobes will resurface the next time, and the time after that, and the time after that...
DeleteToo, NEVER feel guilty for speaking English...EV-VER! Because the younger Francophones didn't live through the Quiet Revolution coupled with pre-existing legislation that echos and protects the French fact, they shouldn't be bitter, and many of them want to learn English by hook or by crook. That being said though, there will always be about a third of them with parents and teachers who poison their minds with the minorities are the enemy. Sadly, there is no shortage of simpletons in the world, always have been, always will be.
Yeah you are right Mr.Sauga,,
DeleteIts always about the money int he end. Even with massive transfers of money here..over representation of quebecois in the federal and quebec public service..a law that actually places french above english even though both are official languages in canada..most generous social programs in north america..the cheapest tuition fees in north america..the best economy in 45 years..people notably les quebecois still find lots to complain about. Thats entitlement..they feel they deserve all this and more..just imagine what would happen if people had to live through a recession..mon dieu!
Cant wait to listen to the PQ stir up shit against the english again..should be coming very soon..within a month we should start hearing about how those anglos are poisoning Montreal and how Canada is ripping Quebec off and so on..
I do envy you Mr.Sauga..I really do..I would love to leave this province but I just cant because of family and work..maybe in 5 or 10 years but not now..
Unemployment is low, the economy is booming, the cranes are swinging again in downtown Montreal. Stick with the horse that wins. Vote Liberal.
ReplyDeleteMr. Sauga here: Sorry, Anonymouse (cute alias), but there is not much of a correlation between how well the economy does vs the governing party. A lot of our economy is influenced by extraneous factors beyond the scope of one jurisdictional government.
DeleteSadly, in Ontario, we have a Liberal government that has massively influenced our economy for the worst as our per capita debt has overtaken Quebec, and within only about 15 years of mandates. Our general election is on June 7th, so hopefully they will be flushed out of Queen's Park, Ontario's legislature.
Student: "very little will tell you no all this should remain in ottawa because the neighboring nation knows better than us, and even less will tell you all this should remain in ottawa because anyway french canadians are part of the canadian nation."
ReplyDeleteWhy would I base my vote on what a subset of French Canadians would say or do?
Student: "I think most french canadian, if you ask them do you want more autonomy for quebec, do you think quebec should have control over its immigration, do you think quebec should have control over its economy or do you think quebec should have control over its ties with france, china, etc, or if you ask do you think quebec should keep the queen you can imagine the way an overwhelming majority would respond. it means french quebec is nationalist. all sort of circumstances can bring these people to vote no, the most powerful one being the fear of losing what they have."
And when the same French Canadians were twice asked to secede, 40% of them said no. It is therefore those 40% who you have to approach and ask why despite wanting all of the above, they still voted No. This should be your target group given that your cause is based largely on romantic notions of that group. With non-Francophones you have a much harder task of selling it on non-romantic tangible benefits - will my standard of living improve? Will I be able to travel across borders as freely? Do my children have a better future? If you say yes to all these, can I trust you? And if you say that day-to-day conditions won't change much, why bother going through with it from the point of view of someone like me who is impervious to the romantic notions behind the idea? Just for the sake of change?
Student: "all this to help you understand that the yes-no issue will remain until quebec's independance, so anglophones should just go for it," "you guys should all vote for the pq and quebec's independance in droves. so once in your lifetime, after independance, you'll get the chance to experience better democracy and vote over something else than separation or no separation."
Why would I base my vote on just getting rid of an irritant? Especially if the irritant can be avoided by staying away from mainstream television and mainstream newspapers.
Student: "and think about it it's quite natural for a nation to long for full control on it's relations with other nations, it's money, it's laws, etc. so even though you all keep saying the debate is over well it's not."
Why would I base my vote on the wishes of other people, regardless of whether the wishes are natural or not?
And what money? Quebec would continue using the CAD, which would be a foreign currency after the separation, printed in the capitol city of a foreign nation. It would be like Panama using the USD, and not like the EU with the Euro printed in Brussels where EU member states have representation.
Mr. Sauga here. adski, re the CAD, Quebec would certainly have the right to use it, but when The Czech Republic and Slovakia amicably separated circa 25 years ago, they initially agreed to their pre-separation common currency, but that ended after 39 days.
DeleteQuebec wouldn't tolerate the CAD as their currency for long because separatists would be repulsed by the notion of a foreign government setting their monetary policy. All Quebec wants is more autonomy over all government policy, whether within or without Canada.
Yes, there are other countries that accept foreign currencies. Like Panama, Antigua accepts the USD on an equal footing to its official currency, the XCD (East Caribbean Dollar), and the Bahamas peg their dollar to the USD. Because Quebec would be a much smaller country within North America, they would likely have an official currency with a widely accepted CAD or USD (more likely the latter).
How about this?
ReplyDeleteAnglos should ask for a crumb and see who bites, with our votes going to the highest bidder.
I am talking of course of bringing section 23.1.a into effect in Quebec. Tell the CAQ: promise to implement it and you'll get our vote.
Mr. Sauga here: Oh, come Tony! Haven't you learned by now in politics lies are CALLED promises, and promises are made to be broken?
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ReplyDelete@editor
Deletethat comment at 7:35 is not from me. can you delete it please? thanks.
Voting QS asap!
ReplyDeleteI'm anglo - functionally bilingual - excluded from social integration and employment in this CAQ riding - (Beauce-Nord) not by ordinary citizens but rather by those affiliated with the CAQ ... the local CLD ... who took it upon themselves to contact my employer & complain that I was not appropriate for the position I held because I wasn't born here. I was terminated on those grounds. I have never met the politically affiliated who's objection & intervention cost me the only position I was ever able to secure in my field - BPI. I understand Mr.Legault may not be aware of such tribal bigotry but it exists, under his banner. Look for my detailed account of this and other instances soon to be published. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteMonica, Mr. Sauga here. I anxiously await your response. You may, however, want to leave a note about it in the article above that came after this article went out of date.
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