tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post3041788948958738400..comments2024-02-17T03:22:53.951-05:00Comments on No Dogs or Anglophones: French versus English Volume 45Editorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05699783315783642466noreply@blogger.comBlogger113125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-49561193266625824262012-01-31T12:41:53.024-05:002012-01-31T12:41:53.024-05:00Apparatchik,
I think that I have pissed you off. ...Apparatchik,<br /><br />I think that I have pissed you off. Sorry. I know that I can sound stubborned (which I am) and obnoxious (I don't mean to).<br /><br />Just two last quick comments :<br /><br />You say : "If anything pisses me off, it's people who write or talk about how they "feel" more one of those identities than another without genuinely making it a lifetime's work of appropriating and integrating the overlapping meanings of each of those identities."<br /><br />I would like to say that I don't feel more quebecker than canadian on purpose, I can't help feeling the way I feel. If I was born in Iran or in Japan, some my opinions could be different, the same if I was born two centuries ago ; same thing for you. We are in many ways products of our environment.<br /><br />I find interesting Anonymous 8:38 and 5:36 coments. If quebeckers feel different from other french canadians, it cannot be because of "neutral" factors, for instance, paticipating in two different local provicial political debates, or living in territories far apart, or participating in different cummunity activities. These neutral geopolitical factors cannot explain that different communities slowly evolve along diverging paths. No, it must be because of something bad that we are doing. (It reminds me of Sting's Russians Love Their Children Too. Old stuff, never mind.)<br /><br />Anyways, I see that I have offended you by sharing my point of view (which I did without insulting or attacking you personnaly). Thank you for explaining your point of view and your cultural background, which I find interesting.Michel Patricenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-70123440012474596322012-01-31T12:35:31.341-05:002012-01-31T12:35:31.341-05:00Encore une fois les vrais événements réellement bi...Encore une fois les vrais événements réellement bilingues se dérouleront à Sherbrooke en 2013 lors des jeux du canada.<br /><br />http://www.cyberpresse.ca/la-tribune/sports/201201/18/01-4487077-jeux-du-canada-la-moitie-des-benevoles-devront-etre-bilingues.php<br /><br />Le Québec:Seul vraie province bilingue du canayaSeppienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-88997769360374455722012-01-31T12:30:41.799-05:002012-01-31T12:30:41.799-05:00"Et moi je continuerai à vous caler dans les ..."Et moi je continuerai à vous caler dans les deux langues officielles"<br /><br />Parlez-vous de la langue officielle des jeux olympiques?Celle qu'on a glissé délibérément sous le tapis de la honte aux derniers jeux au canaya?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-91195890626779664712012-01-31T12:26:09.390-05:002012-01-31T12:26:09.390-05:00"I'm a francophone, anglophone, and allop..."I'm a francophone, anglophone, and allophone"<br /><br />? Hmmm... O_oSeppienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-7017701004563219832012-01-31T06:27:16.348-05:002012-01-31T06:27:16.348-05:00> You say OUR police nationale, OUR media and p...<b>> You say OUR police nationale, OUR media and provincial politicians. Are you a french quebecker?</b><br />I realize you're comparatively new here, so I'll repeat. I'm a mutt. Literally. I'm part French-Canadian, of part British-Isles descent, and in the last century or so, the remainder of my ethnic heritage left Europe and set up shop here. I'm a francophone, anglophone, and allophone (in no particular order -- that part's important), and none of the "national myth" crap fazes me. You'll see me at Parc Lafontaine speaking French just as naturally as you'll spot me at Fairview speaking English. Yes, I credit my background and upbringing, but I've also had to work very hard on my own. And by most accounts, I'd say I've succeeded mightily. Am I living in a bubble just like you? Quite possibly, but here's the thing: I really like my bigger "mutt bubble" a hell of a lot better than either of the three homogeneous bubbles that alone make it up. The only difference is I don't seek to burst your comfort bubble -- or mine. I want them both to coexist with millions of others out there that are no more or less legitimate than either of ours.<br /><br />I think nationalism in any country is just the collective marketing hokum and propaganda cooked up and perpetuated to keep politicians employed. Humans have been reproducing and creating new ethnic, genetic, cultural, and linguistic mixes since the beginning of time, so this ridiculous obsession with allowing Quebec to evolve only along parameters deemed acceptable by péquistes and their nationalist acolytes is about as antithetic to me as having to obtain security clearance to use a bathroom. <br /><br />I am a Montrealer, a Quebecer, and a Canadian, again, in no particular order. If anything pisses me off, it's people who write or talk about how they "feel" more one of those identities than another without genuinely making it a lifetime's work of appropriating and integrating the overlapping meanings of each of those identities.<br /><br /><b>> The attempts by French Quebeckers to differentiate themselves from other Francophones in Canada partially explains why there is a significant degree of hostility between them.</b><br />This comes back to what I said above. If French Quebecers acted more like responsible stewards of <b>Canadian</b> Francophonie and seamlessly and unapologetically wove our French-language cultural institutions into the Canadian national tapestry into which they certainly belong, I believe this would both underscore the necessity of encouraging (without necessarily coercing) French-language rights and the continued growth of a shared continental culture that is our destiny, whatever side of the political divide one happens to be on.Apparatchiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-39621307280428123932012-01-31T06:26:48.180-05:002012-01-31T06:26:48.180-05:00> I might be a flippant know-it-all teenager, b...<b>> I might be a flippant know-it-all teenager, but I think that you have been also able to see some differing pont of view between a french canadian and a quebecker.</b><br />I suppose the part I find ridiculous is that "la francophonie canadienne" doesn't see the various French-speaking groups across the country as belonging to one whole, but almost encourages a division along provincial lines. In the context of an embattled minority, this has always disturbed me as it seems ridiculously counter-productive even when taking obvious regional/provincial realities into account.<br /><br /><b>Quebecker have in some way this "prudence".</b><br />Bullshit. Separatist and nationalist French-Canadians like it just the way it is because it allows them to have their cake and eat it too. Just enough so that we can exist in a parallel universe forged by the National Assembly, but just enough so that we keep getting the benefits of being more closely connected to English Canada than we realize we would have in any Goldilocks-type "sovereignty-association" scenario that only exists in the syphilitic minds of the remaining purs et durs. If they want to sell us a separate country, sell us a separate country. Call it <b>separation</b> or <b>independence</b> and not something deliberately misleading and euphemistic like <b>sovereignty</b>, which is a technical term which delineates what one level of government is responsible for versus another. This is a 40-year long charade and I'm fed up of it. It's not prudent to be self-obsessed over a "survivance" that was more about keeping the Church in business than it ever was about the true needs of the Canadiens (why else did the church not encourage us from learning English?). Shit or get off the pot.<br /><br /><b>> Also one could think that we don't genuinly attemp to integrate culturally and politically within Canada because we feel, right or wrongfuly, that integrating to Canada is integrating an indentity built in part on the negation of what we are.</b><br />More bullshit. Our nationalist political culture has no problem "affirming" this right, that notion, this recognition, or that principle. When something doesn't go our way, we've demanded it and gotten it. The very fact that Canada was redefined from a purely British Dominion into a post-colonialist state with "two founding nations" was a good start. I think Trudeau and company, whom many commenters here dislike for reasons that are their own, was right to bring "French power" to Ottawa and define it as the first step in allowing French-Canadians to appropriate the institutions of a country they were living in but were all but cut off from in practice. My only regret is that Quebec didn't continue in that direction and instead of encouraging multilateralism and genuine bilingualism, showing itself to be the example for all the other provinces, we fell back onto a cowardly, opportunistic, and wishy-washy Bourassa mentality of "let's fuck Ottawa for as much as we can". This has blown up in our face time and again as our provincial politicians keep deliberately misrepresenting the nature of a confederation and don't incite us to genuinely integrate with our co-nationals. Instead, the opinion leaders, media, many artists, and politicians continue with the self-serving narrative of an embattled people who needs to keep looking inward to "protect" itself.<br /><br />Sorry, but I don't need that kind of help.Apparatchiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-49789553089314356282012-01-31T05:34:45.948-05:002012-01-31T05:34:45.948-05:00> Je continuerai d'écrire en français sur c...<b>> Je continuerai d'écrire en français sur ce blogue par principe.</b><br />Et moi je continuerai à vous caler dans les deux langues officielles sans faire passer mon incompétence en anglais pour un grand principe philosophique ou encore un type d'affirmation nationale qu'il faille perpétuer.<br /><br />J'aurais peut-être plus de respect envers vous si vous aviez l'honnêteté d'avouer la vérité et non pas de l'enrober dans un discours hypocrite qui ne sert qu'à vos fins partisanes.Apparatchiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-56334668203194225172012-01-30T21:25:52.293-05:002012-01-30T21:25:52.293-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.OQLFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-69514455485432061682012-01-30T20:36:43.080-05:002012-01-30T20:36:43.080-05:00An Anglophone friend of mine lived in an Acadian v...An Anglophone friend of mine lived in an Acadian village in New Brunswick for several years. He said that the Acadians were not at all fond of the Quebecois, because the latter looked down upon them. It is similar to the situation where the French in France thumb their noses at the Quebecois because they consider them to be a bunch of country bumpkins.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-49212522132039248312012-01-30T11:38:12.634-05:002012-01-30T11:38:12.634-05:00The attempts by French Quebeckers to differentiate...The attempts by French Quebeckers to differentiate themselves from other Francophones in Canada partially explains why there is a significant degree of hostility between them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-31449802324140752762012-01-30T11:33:00.435-05:002012-01-30T11:33:00.435-05:00REWRITE
I forgot. "There are plenty of worse...REWRITE<br /><br />I forgot. "There are plenty of worse things that could befall Quebecers than dropping French in one or two generations,...". Yes, I agree with you.<br /><br />(The delete function doesn't seem to work...)Michel Patricenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-27934700786381993462012-01-30T11:32:35.227-05:002012-01-30T11:32:35.227-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-89858872351885732772012-01-30T09:48:30.878-05:002012-01-30T09:48:30.878-05:00Apparatchik,
"I suppose that this is just pr...Apparatchik,<br /><br />"I suppose that this is just proof positive that most of us are partisan in nature."<br /><br />I agree, absolutely.<br /><br />You read the exchange between Canadien Français and I. I might be a flippant know-it-all teenager, but I think that you have been also able to see some differing pont of view between a french canadian and a quebecker.<br /><br />"What we've been seeing from successive waves of political leaders from Quebec is most often a gradualist approach to achieving Quebec independence,..."<br /><br />We have a british side that some of us don't like to see. The french made a revolution and chopped the head of their king. The british limited the power of their king, little by little, over generations, turning, over centuries, a all mighty king into a decorative accessory. Quebecker have in some way this "prudence".<br /><br />"Why demand to be recognized as a "nation" or as being a "distinct society" if (nationalist elements within) Quebec don't, in return, make a genuine attempt to integrate culturally and politically within Canada?"<br /><br />Some of us want to reform federalism and would like something like a recognition of Québec as a distinct society, some other want independence. Our actions may sometimes look contradictory because they are the result of the actions of different groups. (Also, reforming federalism is a fall back position for independentist, if ideêndence fails, they would like at least a reform of federalism.)<br /><br />Also one could think that we don't genuinly attemp to integrate culturally and politically within Canada because we feel, right or wrongfuly, that integrating to Canada is integrating an indentity built in part on the negation of what we are.<br /><br />"Montrealers one day mobilizing for independence from a hypothetical independent Quebec). Tell me if you disagree that such action would be described with notions such as "sedition", "treason", "national emergency", "imperiling our territorial integrity", and "corrective therapy" would not only be thrown around, but acted on rather hastily by our "Police Nationale"."<br /><br />Yes, it would. Would it be delt hastily by our "police nationale"? No, I don't think so.<br /><br />You say OUR police nationale, OUR media and provincial politicians. Are you a french quebecker?<br /><br />Michel PatriceMichel Patricenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-87356184201958146732012-01-29T22:46:24.879-05:002012-01-29T22:46:24.879-05:00I don't know French well enough to play. I ass...I don't know French well enough to play. I assume this is a parody of the "Angry Birds" game poking fun at PQ politicians?Edward J. Cunninghamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11925008506185290162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-62779258811655817492012-01-29T18:41:28.841-05:002012-01-29T18:41:28.841-05:00Yeah right,nice try Apparatchik...
Je continuerai...Yeah right,nice try Apparatchik...<br /><br />Je continuerai d'écrire en français sur ce blogue par principe.Seppienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-51293752558245354282012-01-29T17:49:02.768-05:002012-01-29T17:49:02.768-05:00...et pourtant le roi des one-liners est incapable......et pourtant le roi des one-liners est incapable d'exercer son talent dans la langue de Shakespeare, même après tout ce temps là...Apparatchiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-9199562041513086242012-01-29T17:30:27.279-05:002012-01-29T17:30:27.279-05:00L'anglais est une langue trop facile à apprend...L'anglais est une langue trop facile à apprendre.Pas besoin de cours,quelques heures d'internet et de télé américaine par semaine,suffisent amplement.Seppienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-36344210885528083532012-01-29T16:26:20.734-05:002012-01-29T16:26:20.734-05:00Whether the 6th grade or a grade earlier, or later...Whether the 6th grade or a grade earlier, or later seems like a detail that can be worked out. That it will piss of the nationalists? The question is: what won't piss the off. It seems like everything pisses them off, so why even bother with they might think. The cocktail of bogeyman rhetoric is a constant, not a variable that depends on what we do. Money could be an issue, but the matter is important enough for Charest to divert funds to it. Finding ESL teachers could be an issue, not so much because of the lack of them but their potential unwillingness to venture into institutions where they would surely encounter resentment.<br /><br />The two things I mentioned still stand. What parents think hasn't been taken into account. And the teachers are so obviously acting in their self-interest, not in the interest of the children as they try very hard to claim.adskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-1050396295254843322012-01-29T16:05:50.433-05:002012-01-29T16:05:50.433-05:00Que pensez-vous de Réjean Hébert dans Sherbrooke?Que pensez-vous de Réjean Hébert dans Sherbrooke?Seppienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-5094397417656662652012-01-29T15:52:15.052-05:002012-01-29T15:52:15.052-05:00She'll probably cause less harm then the other...She'll probably cause less harm then the others. <br />I hope she runs a secure PQ riding, although I'm not sure they exist anymore.Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05699783315783642466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-89759055896647532872012-01-29T13:26:57.353-05:002012-01-29T13:26:57.353-05:00Gee, a half-wit with no marketable skills unable t...Gee, a half-wit with no marketable skills unable to find employment for a year, sounds like perfect Parti Québécois ministerial material. I wonder how many jobs she'll be able to create or attract to Quebec?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-82776841096840848262012-01-29T13:22:08.412-05:002012-01-29T13:22:08.412-05:00Francophones donate to charities FAR LESS than oth...Francophones donate to charities FAR LESS than other Canadians do, so it's no surprise that McGill and the MUHC receive more private donations than U de M or the CHUM. Selfish or just plain cheap, you decide.JacquesParasitenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-67038201206157572482012-01-29T12:30:38.584-05:002012-01-29T12:30:38.584-05:00> [...] they should be allowed to. But I would ...<b>> [...] they should be allowed to. But I would not tell them, they would have to figure it out by themselves, I would not help them and I would actively try to keep them in Québec. Paradoxal? Yes. And your question leads to : "if a part of the part that wants to leave Québec, should it be allowed?" and this will soon get absurd.</b><br /><br />I suppose that this is just proof positive that most of us are partisan in nature. I want to see Canada's territorial integrity maintained while you would like keep Quebec undivided. Clearly, we will continue to persist in our respective dogmas until something stronger than either of us settles it for us, sooner or later.<br /><br /><b>>If you want to have a glimpse of the different paths that quebeckers and french canadians have taken, have a look at this discussion between a french canadian and I</b><br /><br />I read the entire exchange and I must admit I am in near-unanimous agreement with the positions of your interlocutor "Canadien-Français" and reading your responses to his points felt like listening to a flippant know-it-all teenager telling his old and much wiser father how the world really is. I came away from it feeling like there might certainly be many ways to see the world, and there might not be a single "right" way to look at it, and this is a good thing for humanity. However, I continue to believe that you personify the very virulent strain of self-serving, trashy, and myopic political nationalism peddled by the the Laurins and Parizeaus and that if Quebec were to continue along the path charted by that gang that there will one day be a serious reckoning - politically, ethnically, linguistically, and socially.<br /><br /><b>> Is denying the fact that quebeckers form a nation a consolation prize for having been uncapable of assimilating us?</b><br />I think it cuts both ways, but the nationalists have more to gain, even from a moral victory, than federalists do.<br /><br />What we've been seeing from successive waves of political leaders from Quebec is most often a gradualist approach to achieving Quebec independence, whether de facto or de jure. Why demand to be recognized as a "nation" or as being a "distinct society" if (nationalist elements within) Quebec don't, in return, make a genuine attempt to integrate culturally and politically within Canada? <br /><br />Our media, provincial politicians, and separatist pundits serve up a daily brainwashing diet of expressions like "des pays comme le Québec", "Capitale-Nationale", and our own provincial government likes to pretend to be a grown-up, sending diplomats abroad. Viewing all these trends collectively, I can't help but spot many a nationalist gleefully appropriating the trappings of a yet-inexistent <b>country</b> without making the slightest effort to work to build and benefit the one he already has. The reason this infuriates me is that when I consider what the situation would be like if the shoe were on the other foot (e.g. Montrealers one day mobilizing for independence from a hypothetical independent Quebec). Tell me if you disagree that such action would be described with notions such as "sedition", "treason", "national emergency", "imperiling our territorial integrity", and "corrective therapy" would not only be thrown around, but acted on rather hastily by our "Police Nationale".<br /><br />But then again, I don't subscribe to the age-old notion of "la survivance" that has defined our experience as French-Canadians for centuries. There are plenty of worse things that could befall Quebecers than dropping French in one or two generations, and this is something no public figure in Quebec has the honesty to tell us.Apparatchiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-21456417146218294152012-01-29T08:28:02.390-05:002012-01-29T08:28:02.390-05:00Troy,
"Also, I am a bit disappointed in deba...Troy,<br /><br />"Also, I am a bit disappointed in debating with you. You are a bit dishonest in presenting your argument. You see, the definition of nation in Wikipedia (the one you quoted) actually does not stop there."<br /><br />The wikipedia articles on nations are of course much longer than the part I quoted. I quoted three definitions since the definitions are multiple and often a little different from each other. I did not mean to be dishonest.<br /><br />Your not helping stating that Québec is not a nation as an instance of negating Québec identity as a part of the canadian identity was maybe a bad choice. So, do you think that the canadian identity (and/or canadian nationalism) is built, in part, on the negation of the identity of Québec and quebeckers?<br /><br />About the territory, it is said "most often (but not necessarily) settled on one territory" and "identifiée dans des limites géographiques parfois fluctuantes". How French community in northern Maine and quebeckers form the same nation when they don't share common political institutions, a common economy, and so on?<br /><br />(I am leaving for the day, I will not be back before tonight.)Michel Patricehttp://michelpatrice.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-11781065327121373942012-01-29T08:11:01.923-05:002012-01-29T08:11:01.923-05:00To Anonymous 2:25
Given my last comment three def...To Anonymous 2:25<br /><br />Given my last comment three definitions of nation, it is hard to say that quebeckers are not a nation. So, since the very idea that Québec is nation hurts your mind, you belittle it by stating that Québec is not truely a nation but only a part of a larger french canadian nation.<br /><br />You bring this negation of our identity to enternaining heights.<br /><br />If you want to have a glimpse of the different paths that quebeckers and french canadians have taken, have a look at this discussion between a french canadian and I : http://michelpatrice.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/what-would-we-do-without-equalization-payment/#comment-120<br /><br />Yes "There are many nations within the country, such as the Aboriginal nations, and these are far more ancient and much more distinct than the Francophone nation."<br /><br />That there are many nations in this country does not change who I am. I find interesting to see how your idea of many nations is quite similar to Trudeau's idea of multiculturalism : it cannot be credibly said that french canadians (and later quebekers) are not a distinct community, therefore Canada will be a community of communities and they will be just a community among others. If find it hard not to see a negation of what we are into this. <br /><br />"Widening the question, do the descendants of German, Chinese, Irish, Italian, Muslim, or Jewish immigrants to Canada, for example, form a nation?"<br /><br />Let's take german for instance. There is obviously a german nation in germany. Do germans in Québec form a nation? (I never heard anyone say something like "we, german-quebeckers, think that so and so.") I would say that to be a nation you have to have a critical mass on your territory. German in Québec do not share, for instance, a common economy, they are integrated to the larger Québec economy, they don't have their own political institutions, and so on.<br /><br />"Further still, is granting/denying autonomy to some groups and not others really not a collective consolation prize awarding failure to integrate (and not necessarily assimilate) -- whether politically, linguistically, culturally, or otherwise?"<br /><br />Is denying the fact that quebeckers form a nation a consolation prize for having been uncapable of assimilating us?Michel Patricehttp://michelpatrice.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com