No Dogs or Anglophones

'Time to re-evaluate the OLA and quite pouring...

2012-05-26T00:52:42.716-04:00

'Time to re-evaluate the OLA and quite pouring money down the drain'

Time for the 'national assembly' to be boarded up, for past and present members of the Bloc and PQ to be arrested and tried for sedition, for the military to 'pacify' all militia/terrorist groups in the province, and for the province to become officially bilingual and equitable. Enough is enough. Roll in the tanks Stephen!

T. Kondaks, If Quebec is a "distinct soci...

2012-05-25T22:27:31.409-04:00
T. Kondaks,

If Quebec is a "distinct society" and the quebecois are a "people who constitute a nation within Canada" as that famous resolution stated (voted in the affirmative by almost all Quebec MPs) then, you see, Quebec is not a province like all the others.

The resolution recognized Quebecois as a nation within Canada. It is silent on Quebec as a political entity. Therefore, the province of Quebec is but one of ten provinces in Canada, nothing more, nothing less.

Yannick, I am an immigrant. So I will always appl...

2012-05-25T22:16:53.038-04:00
Yannick,

I am an immigrant. So I will always applaud those who have the willingness to leave their homeland and their comfort zone behind in search of better life. So if Celine gets much more success in Nevada and in Florida than she does in Quebec, all the best for her. It is Canada's loss, really. But if Quebec / Canada can not give her what she deserves, why stay?

The problem I have is now that she is American, why when she comes back to Quebec she acts as if Quebec is still the land of milk and honey? Why she acts as if she is the defender of French-Quebec arts, culture and language? Why she shuns everything English here?

Me, for example. When I go home to my home country, I do not act as if the Western culture is evil, that English (or French) is bad, that my home country is the best in the world. Of course not. If that was the case, why did I leave? I still respect and love the land where I was born, but even there I do not get on my high horse and be self-righteous. After all, the decision to move was mine.

Les anglo-Québécois sont tout autant Québécois que...

2012-05-25T21:55:16.983-04:00
Les anglo-Québécois sont tout autant Québécois que toi.

Tiens donc...! Des étudiants ontariens veulent au...

2012-05-25T21:47:24.420-04:00
Tiens donc...!

Des étudiants ontariens veulent aussi lutter contre les droits de scolarité:

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/education/201205/25/01-4528800-des-etudiants-ontariens-veulent-aussi-lutter-contre-les-droits-de-scolarite.php

Et puis...?

2012-05-25T21:44:18.781-04:00
Et puis...?

Another thing. Checking Wikipedia, I am a bit surprised to see that Montreal is considered a major Chinese-speaking settlement while other cities I thought considered more "cosmopolitan" and "global" are not. E.g. Detroit, Frankfurt, Brussels.

Yannick, As an immigrant myself I can state that ...

2012-05-25T21:05:56.810-04:00
Yannick,

As an immigrant myself I can state that the mere fact that Hong Kong was a British dependent territory had no obvious administrative benefit for those Hong Kongers to immigrate to Canada. What made Canada accept them in such great number is simply $$$, be it HKD, USD or CAD. That is one of the reasons why the housing market in Vancouver is as crazy as it is today - average Vancouver property is 3-4 times Montreal property - because the rich Hong Kongers artificially jacked the price up.

Here's an interesting article, "Multinat...

2012-05-25T20:50:12.330-04:00
Here's an interesting article,

"Multinational companies are now mandating that employees communicate only in English."

http://www.10news.com/money/31081432/detail.html

Yet quebec, part of an English speaking country, legislates against the language. Strange.

Remember that we have many Cantonese from Hong Kon...

2012-05-25T19:39:10.240-04:00
Remember that we have many Cantonese from Hong Kong, who used to be a UK dependancy and as such benefited from advantages when immigrating to commonwealth countries. On the other hands, Mandarins have only recently been allowed to emigrate from Mainland China.

My assumptions about Mandarin were incorrect. Acc...

2012-05-25T19:37:00.816-04:00
My assumptions about Mandarin were incorrect.

According to "Mother Tongue" there are about 3 times more Cantonese speakers than Mandarin. See: Mother Tongue.

Cantonese is the language of Hong Kong; Mandarin the main language of the mainland.

Also note there are over 1,000,000 "Chinese" speakers under Mother Tongue as opposed to almost 800,000 "at home" speakers.

Here are the figures from a quick Google search: ...

2012-05-25T19:31:36.045-04:00
Here are the figures from a quick Google search:

From the 2006 Census, "Languages spoke most often at home": 796,345 Chinese Languages. See: Chinese Languages spoken in Canada.

And here is the breakdown of which languages are included in Chinese Languages.

31,241,030 was the total population of Canada in 2006, so all Chinese Languages constitute about 2.7% of all home languages spoken in Canada. Depending upon what percentage of those Chinese Languages are Mandarin would determine whether the 0.5% is accurate. I suspect it isn't because most Chinese speak Mandarin.

@adiski, While Quebec is not allowing any reflect...

2012-05-25T19:30:04.102-04:00
@adiski,

While Quebec is not allowing any reflection of Canadas' linguistic duality in the province and while I am totally against the linguistic chauvanism of the bill 101 supporters and apologists. As an English speaking allo of Quebec I am glad that Canada does have a semblance of historical linguistic duality and recognition to a certain degree of multiculturalism (dreaded by WASP cultural revivalists of the "keep Canada white" persuasion on the one side and Pur Laine francophone chauvanists on the other). The reason being that after seeing the spirit of just one year of a majority conservative government I know how it feels to have a backdoor agenda of making Canada have a WASP facade imposed on the population. IF this duality does crumble, it will hurt not only Francophones outside Quebec but allophones indirectly and in different degrees as well.

It would be in Francophone Quebecers interests to allow for more linguistic freedom inside quebec for english speakers as it would break alot of the current unifier in the ROC of WASPs and the rest of the allophone descendent population against the linguistic lightning rod of Quebec.

Yannick: I won't touch that with a ten foot po...

2012-05-25T19:25:04.943-04:00
Yannick: I won't touch that with a ten foot pole Newfoundlander's may have a blog where they gripe about joining Canada and how great it made Newfoundlander's economy afterward.

What I wrote was an absurd scenario, one of many made by people who see how absurd 101 is in an Actual use in any other province.

Cutting up the country by having the power to remove a province from Canada. After puking out these crazy country plans,

After all is said and done I think aboriginal's were in Quebec first, I support "First Nation's",

When Quebec aboriginal's have something to say and do about the matter of: A group of people who are not First leaving Canada, I would be with what the Aboriginal's want 100%.

So with that said, the notion that Quebec would ever leave Canada in a legal way will never happen.

like a dog chasing it's tail:

The french people who want Quebec to stand alone can keep on cherishing the little fantasy of leaving Canada. They use this lie as fuel whenever they have a burst of anger towards English

Your points are well taken, Yannick. If the "...

2012-05-25T19:19:51.015-04:00
Your points are well taken, Yannick.

If the "distinctiveness" of Quebec remains just an observation of a sociological fact, then I agree with you. No harm in that.

But it has been proposed at times in the past that Quebec be recognized as a "distinct society" or in other similar wording in the constitution and that this distinctiveness become an interpretive clause. As such, it which would influence all other parts of the constitution. This is the specific objection that Pierre Trudeau had to the Meech Lake Accord.

Of course, both Meech and Charlottetown did not become law, so we don't have to worry about that, as far as those proposals are concerned.

What I'd like to know is to what degree -- if any -- that the "nation" resolution of Stephen Harper's from about 5 years ago influences the Surpreme Court decisions. If so, this would give credence to my argument that Quebec is being treated differently than other provinces over and above what is allowed it in the constitution.

Nevertheless, I still believe it is legitimate in conversations about Quebec and its distinctiveness to remember that it does claim at different times to more than a province (ie, when it wants more powers from Ottawa) and at other times to be a province (when it lines up at the equalization trough). And, as I stated earlier, if it wants to emphasize its distinctiveness, then let it be distinct from other provinces and become officially bilingual without the standard of what other "mere" provinces do being imposed on the conversation.

This is a little biased towards Montreal. toronto&...

2012-05-25T18:51:17.683-04:00
This is a little biased towards Montreal. toronto's public transportation is a little hectic but its better than montreal's. plus montreal is more bike friendly but heyy the drivers here have no respect for bikers.
HOWEVER, Montreal still wins. MTL has a balance between work and life. culture in montreal is awesome. Nightlife in T.O. is either getting a beer, dancin for 15 mins and leaving, OR getting drunk and shootin people
BTW if you are racist to french, dont know french and arent willing to french, then montrealers are rude and snooty. But you dont have to be fluent. I'm an anglophone livin in montreal for 4 years (not including the time when i was in universiity). I was in McGill and learned some french but im still not fluent. BUT i have montrealer(francophone) friends, francophone girlfriend and people are friendly to me.

He's just an entitled brat who expects others ...

2012-05-25T18:23:31.874-04:00
He's just an entitled brat who expects others to pay for him.

And really to say that Charest dug up dirt on him? You're starting to sound like Amir Khadr with your conspiracy theories.

In light of that, I agree it's not quite the s...

2012-05-25T18:10:02.305-04:00
In light of that, I agree it's not quite the same. You could get away with a single set of "Chinese" written documentation, and it would make more sense to have it (if you ignore Quebec) than french documentation based on numbers alone. That may be the reason why it's actually easier to obtain chinese documentation than french documentation in western Canada. For instance, the local francos of Alberta were quite peeved at the last elections when documentation was offered in english and six other languages but not in french.

As for federal services? I still think it's a stretch to say that we should offer Chinese services but not french ones.

What a poorly researched article. It just amazes m...

2012-05-25T18:08:49.179-04:00
What a poorly researched article. It just amazes me nowadays who is allowed to write columns. He's is basically talking out of his ass.

Who is John Moore? He is not some great political thinker. He is an ex-Montrealer (it says in Wikipedia that he lives in Toronto and Montreal but I no longer see him on Montreal TV, maybe he stays here 2 weeks in the summer) who was a film critic. A film critic! lol

His article is so easy to refute. He is projecting when he says it's the older generation that is entitled. The boomers worked for what they got.

"Quebec has had low tuition rates for a half century. That means almost every living adult in the province, having already been afforded a plum goodie, is now wagging his finger at the first generation that will be asked to pay the tab. So who really is entitled here?"

Well, I'll just let the film critic know that tuition has been frozen for a while now, so tuition is going back to the historic levels of the baby boomers. The student's aren't asked to pay the tab for everyone else's tuition. They are only being asked to pay a fair amount. Meanwhile, some students want free tuition. Yep, who's entitled indeed.

"Canadians now aged 55 years and older will collect Old Age Security when they hit 65. The rest of us will have to work two more years."

Yes, I see, and Mr. wise film critic, what is the live expectancy of people of that generation compared to that of this generation? Working 2 more years still actually works out better for the younger generation because they will be collecting benefits longer.

"The employed could count on a level of job security that allowed them to take on debt to own houses, cottages and cars...It’s almost like Canadians had a “sense of entitlement,” or something."

Yes, yes Mr. film critic. While it may have been easier to keep a job back then, they still have to work, eh? So, it has nothing to do with entitlement, but more to do with earning what you got. Maybe you should try the same, John Moore, like looking up basic info or at least thinking about what you're writing about.

"When the economy tanked, it fell to money-starved governments to bail everyone out."

Do you know where the government got money. Well, it didn't just appear. It actually comes from taxpayers, many of which are baby-boomers.

You know, people can have their opinions. They should back it up with something, though, especially if they are a paid writer, which this little columnist sadly fails at.

For something that is a little more researched:

Jeffrey Simpson: In a province of sacrifice, a few pursue privilege

It shows exactly the financial shape Quebec is in, debt taxes, etc. "Quebec’s sales tax has gone up by two points. A health tax was imposed to raise $945-million when fully implemented. One cent a litre was added to the price of fuel each year from 2010 to 2013. Business taxes were raised by $800-million." There's more detail in the article.

The argument makes sense on the surface: Quebec is...

2012-05-25T17:46:23.180-04:00
The argument makes sense on the surface: Quebec is either like all the other provinces, or it isn't. Therefore, it either deserves the exact same treatment as all the other provinces (in which case we should never mention its distinctiveness) or it should be treated differently (in which case the treatment of other provinces is irrelevant). I hope you will understand the fallacy of the argument with my analogy.

Homosexuals are distinct from heterosexuals, in that they are not the same as heterosexuals. They are often the target of hate crime. In a trial, it would not be irrelevant to point out that the victim is an open homosexual, and that the accused has shown himself to be a homophobe. How then, can I turn around and claim that homosexuals deserve to have the same right to marriage as heterosexuals? Surely, homosexuals are distinct from heterosexuals, and the rights of heterosexuals have no bearing on the rights of homosexuals.

Of course this would be ridiculous - sometimes the context means that Quebec's "distinctiveness" is relevant. Sometimes it is spurious. The nature of Quebec's distinctiveness, as defined by that resolution, is both enshrining the painfully obvious as well as entirely symbolic in meaning. Not a single new right, privilege, or advantage was conferred on Quebec by it. It merely recognized that Quebec is the only French province out of all of Canada, and that makes it different.

Yannick, wait... Of course if you take in any ...

2012-05-25T17:33:28.018-04:00
Yannick, wait...

Of course if you take in any form of Chinese dialects you get about 1.5 million people (whole Canada, not ROC) - but you're talking about a family of languages unintelligible to each other.

The dialects in Chinese language refers to the way each character in the hanzi in pronounced. However, the characters themselves (tens of thousands or them) are the same. Therefore, in writing the are all the same. Chinese literature is generally interchangeable between dialects. That is why they are classified as dialects, not languages. Italian, French, Portuguese and Spanish are Romance languages, but each one of them is a language by itself.

One other point, Yannick. If Quebec is a "di...

2012-05-25T17:23:04.618-04:00
One other point, Yannick.

If Quebec is a "distinct society" and the quebecois are a "people who constitute a nation within Canada" as that famous resolution stated (voted in the affirmative by almost all Quebec MPs) then, you see, Quebec is not a province like all the others.

So why compare Quebec to any of the other nine provinces? You make a comparison of the rights that the francophones outside of Quebec have compared with the anglos of Quebec. But those other nine entities are mere "provinces"; Quebec is, according to perhaps you but certainly millions of nationalist Quebecers much, MUCH more than just a province like all the others.

You can't have it both ways. When it is convenient for Quebec, it is a "nation", a "distinct society". But when it convenient, Quebec quickly morphs into a province like all the others (e.g., equalization, or this discussion here). Make up your mind. Either Quebec is a province like all the others, or it isn't. If it isn't, please stop comparing the rights of francophones outside Quebec with the rights of anglos inside Quebec.

Fair enough, Tony. That makes sense.

2012-05-25T17:22:48.304-04:00
Fair enough, Tony. That makes sense.

Hey, they asked; I answered. Some on this forum l...

2012-05-25T17:13:04.636-04:00
Hey, they asked; I answered.

Some on this forum look upon me as dreaming impractical dreams. Well, if I'm asked, that's what I want so I'm gonna say it.

Twice the anglos have gone on record when they have been asked what we want. In the Belanger-Campeau Commission of about 1992, the Equality Party minority report stated what we wanted

Neil Cameron as an Equality MNA stated it in his Bill 199, the Charter of the English and French Languages.

I think all on this forum who aspire to advocate for full rights and freedoms for the anglos of Quebec should familiarize themselves with the language of these things so that when are asked by the powers that be what we want we can answer in the most coherent way. This stuff is important.

Quebec should be officially bilingual because that...

2012-05-25T17:04:10.918-04:00
Quebec should be officially bilingual because that is what was intended when Canada was created. Indeed, for those areas of society in which government was involved in during that epoch (1867), English in Quebec was guaranteed in the BNA Act: the provincial courts, the schools, the legislative assembly.

It is only now in the modern era in which we see such an incredible increase in the influence in government in so many walks of life that the original intentions of the BNA Act aren't adequate: health care, social services, etc. So the BNA Act was outdated once government started to play such an integral part of our lives (and such a large percentage of GDP).

As for percentages, why should that matter? When the first language legislation was implemented in Quebec back in 1969, the anglophones of Quebec had a population, numberwise, that was greater than at least 6 other provinces (maybe even 7 or 8, without looking it up). As well, the English of Montreal just prior to the creation of Canada in 1867 were part of the MAJORITY (the United Province of Upper and Lower Canada was one entity) and only became a minority with the creation of Canada and its four provinces. It was with the creation of the anglos of Quebec as a minority in 1867 that the solemn promise that our newly-created minority status would be protected was made (and that promise was never kept, I might add). Percentage has nothing to do with it.

As for the francophones of other provinces? Where numbers warrant they most certainly should have French as an official language. As it stands now, where numbers warrant has benefited New Brunswick's minority linguistic community and them only. The francophones of Moncton have far, FAR more rights than the anglophones of Blanc Sablon, Quebec.

If you truly want to help the francophones outside Quebec, throw as many rights and freedoms on the anglos of Quebec. This will rise the standard high and will bring francophones outside of Quebec UP to the highest denominator, rather than minimize the rights of anglos in Quebec, which brings the standard DOWN to the lowest denominator.

No Dogs or Anglophones

'Time to re-evaluate the OLA and quite pouring...

T. Kondaks, If Quebec is a "distinct soci...

Yannick, I am an immigrant. So I will always appl...

Les anglo-Québécois sont tout autant Québécois que...

Tiens donc...! Des étudiants ontariens veulent au...

Et puis...?

Another thing. Checking Wikipedia, I am a bit surprised to see that Montreal is considered a major Chinese-speaking settlement while other cities I thought considered more "cosmopolitan" and "global" are not. E.g. Detroit, Frankfurt, Brussels.

Yannick, As an immigrant myself I can state that ...

Here's an interesting article, "Multinat...

Remember that we have many Cantonese from Hong Kon...

My assumptions about Mandarin were incorrect. Acc...

Here are the figures from a quick Google search: ...

@adiski, While Quebec is not allowing any reflect...

Yannick: I won't touch that with a ten foot po...

Your points are well taken, Yannick. If the "...

This is a little biased towards Montreal. toronto&...

He's just an entitled brat who expects others ...

In light of that, I agree it's not quite the s...

What a poorly researched article. It just amazes m...

The argument makes sense on the surface: Quebec is...

Yannick, wait... Of course if you take in any ...

One other point, Yannick. If Quebec is a "di...

Fair enough, Tony. That makes sense.

Hey, they asked; I answered. Some on this forum l...

Quebec should be officially bilingual because that...