tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post7102296334047901413..comments2024-02-17T03:22:53.951-05:00Comments on No Dogs or Anglophones: McGill University Medical School Decline was InevitableEditorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05699783315783642466noreply@blogger.comBlogger128125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-66092926773085814412013-08-14T01:16:07.662-04:002013-08-14T01:16:07.662-04:00I take issue with the phrase "serve the provi...I take issue with the phrase "serve the province," Doctors do not get their degrees to become vassals to a political jurisdiction. One hopes they study medicine to help the sick and injured, whoever and wherever they are; after years of effort and study, I do not begrudge a doctor who wants to practise in a region where he/she can make a comfortable living -- and where they see a viable future for their family. I'm willing to bet that most English-speaking medical graduates in Quebec feel the same as most anglophone accounting grads or technical school grads: They're not wanted here because they're anglophones, so might as well move out of Quebec and to a place where they're not disrespected.Ex-MTLer1642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-7316162286370218782013-01-24T01:06:28.309-05:002013-01-24T01:06:28.309-05:00I am french canadian and I am a M.Sc. student at M...I am french canadian and I am a M.Sc. student at McGill. You are, especially the allophones endorsing this article, a bunch of hypocrites. So it's ok for the government to pass laws helping ethnic minorities to get into medical school (and McGill in general) but not ok for McGill to help francophones get in? Or it's ok to use the taxpayers money to pay for your medical education but not serve them afterwards? Francophone physicians are more likely to stay here and serve the province; that's a very effective way to slow down the doctors' exodus. <br /><br />Btw, those rankings are strongly based on the rejection rate and student averages. What about published medical research? That should have more weight. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-42181544928518261422012-12-17T14:33:27.712-05:002012-12-17T14:33:27.712-05:00"For young francophone doctors, its more diff..."For young francophone doctors, its more difficult to leave, most are a prisoner of culture and language.<br />Most doctors on the francophone side take the fast-tracked, pre-med cegep route to medical school, where English as a second language is largely ignored. For them, moving out of Quebec is not an option and so like teachers and other unilingual professionals, they are forced to accept an incredibly steep 'home team discount' "<br /><br />First off, I must start off by saying that you got many things wrong. Pre-med is definitely not restricted to the french speaking community; In fact there are several CEGEPs (Marianopolis, Dawson, Champlain, name them) across the province that offer health science programs (which can obviously give you a change of being admitted into Pre-Med). Not only are students from anglo CEGEPS allowed to apply, but they also represent a large demographic in the pre-med program in McGill. <br /><br />Second of all, I find it important to tell you that your generalizations about francophone medical students are aberrant. You do have a point when saying that English-as-a-second-language classes in francophone CEGEPS is not as outstanding as it could be. However, many francophone students voluntarily decide to apply to McGill GIVEN that they want to pursue their education in a teaching language different from theirs. You know what, I feel like I should tell you something: I am a proud francophone, and I study Medicine in McGill. Not because it was my only option, but because I found that learning to communicate in English was essential in life. I knew that the standard English classes that I had taken throughout my education in francophone institutions would not be sufficient to allow optimal/efficient communication with my confrères/patients once I got to the hospital. <br />Despite having struggled at first, never have I regretted choosing to go to McGill. Studying in English is the BEST way to broaden your horizons, as you get to meet individuals from so many different backgrounds and cultures. The English language becomes a way for you to interact with individuals from all around the world. It becomes a communication tool, and, honestly, you start cherishing it as it gives you the opportunity to learn so much about so many different things. <br /><br />Therefore, when you say that "For them, moving out of Quebec is not an option and so like teachers and other unilingual professionals, they are forced to accept an incredibly steep 'home team discount'", you couldn't be more wrong. By deciding to open the door to francophone students, McGill has actually opened the door for more Quebecers to leave the province, as it allows "unilingual" francophone students to bilingual/Fluent-English-speaking professionals. However, despite the fact that the "door has been opened", it doesn't mean that those professionals are going to rush through the door. <br /><br />Quebecers from a francophone background might decide, despite having studied in an Anglophone institution, that they want to serve their community and stay in Quebec. Culture is a big part of the "French-Canadian" pride, and therefore some individuals prefer making the choice of staying here rather than moving to the US or to other Canadian provinces. <br />Moving IS an option. However, deciding to move is a CHOICE that not everyone decides to make.Vanessanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-15939674806501530682012-07-07T17:19:40.649-04:002012-07-07T17:19:40.649-04:00The NCR, which includes Gatineau, is bilingual at ...The NCR, which includes Gatineau, is bilingual at the federal level. The City of Ottawa has recently decided to become a bilingual city but they had no federal obligation to do so. English services ARE usually available in the Outouais region. I do agree that Gatineau should become a bilingual city, though. <br /><br />Many parts of eastern Ontario do have bilingual communities, but there's not much bilingualism south of northeastern Ontario, except for road signs, which Quebec should do with their road signs.Stevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-18043470282378586262012-07-07T11:09:39.914-04:002012-07-07T11:09:39.914-04:00You have misunderstood my point. II was referring ...You have misunderstood my point. II was referring to the political actors of the time. Like all politicians there was a difference between their public and private personas. Some of them said the exact opposite privately than what they said publicly. In that sense, reading a book rather than knowing these people personally, including having gone to school with them, means that you are deceived about them.John Krugnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-43467278761242231792012-07-06T22:06:25.542-04:002012-07-06T22:06:25.542-04:00"Ontario is not bilingual in any sense of the..."Ontario is not bilingual in any sense of the word."<br /><br />Really? I live in eastern Ontario and all of the road signs are bilingual here. There are hardly any bilingual road signs in Quebec.<br /><br />The City of Ottawa is also officially bilingual. This isn't the case in Gatineau across the Ottawa river, despite the fact that it is also a part of the National Capital Region.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-66028241227794548792012-07-06T18:34:49.755-04:002012-07-06T18:34:49.755-04:00You're wrong, Anon 3:34
Ontario is not biling...You're wrong, Anon 3:34<br /><br />Ontario is not bilingual in any sense of the word. English is the only official language and French is only required in 27 designated areas. In Quebec, there are 72 bilingual municipalities that offer bilingual services and 91 that do so even though they're not designated under 29.1 of Bill 101. These bilingual statuses cannot be revoked unless the municipalities want it, which has never happened. In this regard, Quebec is also de facto bilingual in legal terms. <br /><br />Although it must be stressed that the English hospitals in Quebec were created through community efforts, not through the generosity of the state.Stevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-25069697628285045222012-07-06T15:34:19.587-04:002012-07-06T15:34:19.587-04:00@ Steven,
"The majority in Ontario speak Eng...@ Steven,<br /><br />"The majority in Ontario speak English, therefore that's the official language."<br /><br />Ontario is de facto bilingual, despite the fact that Francophones comprise less than 4% of the population. Francophones receive protection from the French Language Services Act. There is no such legislation protecting Anglophone rights in Quebec.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-32766922013971360302012-07-06T15:09:30.487-04:002012-07-06T15:09:30.487-04:00Great, thanks.Great, thanks.JBGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-25389839610461872252012-07-06T14:47:19.978-04:002012-07-06T14:47:19.978-04:00JBG, this Wikipedia page can explain it in greater...JBG, this Wikipedia page can explain it in greater detail than I can<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociational_democracyStevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-88722529362335259592012-07-06T13:47:35.638-04:002012-07-06T13:47:35.638-04:00Yes, it does.
In a consociational democracy, co...Yes, it does. <br /><br /><i>In a consociational democracy, communities basically establish rules that pertain to their communities only and are generally autonomous and independent of another.</i><br /><br />Are Mennonite communities an example of consociational democracy? (No taxes, no conscription, generally not in public health care)jbgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-26572475367282351862012-07-06T13:05:34.538-04:002012-07-06T13:05:34.538-04:00JBG, a majoritarian democracy is a democracy in wh...JBG, a majoritarian democracy is a democracy in which rule is based on the majority rule of any given society. It's the most common form of democracy in the world, although it can lead to "tyranny of the majority" and oppress minorities. In a consociational democracy, communities basically establish rules that pertain to their communities only and are generally autonomous and independent of another. For instance, francophones and anglophones in Quebec before 1960 made rules that applied only to their respective communities and neither community influenced each other's behaviors. The two communities were virtually segregated from one another and someone could have lived in Montreal, immersed within the anglophones and completely ignore the francophone majority that surrounded them. <br /><br />I hope this answers your question, JBG.Stevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-69721209107256053362012-07-06T12:53:47.886-04:002012-07-06T12:53:47.886-04:00John, I understand that it must have been extremel...John, I understand that it must have been extremely difficult for the individual players involved, but it always happens when there's a major shift in the political landscape. Anglophones back in the day could have never imagined that Quebec would someday become a majoritarian democracy, meaning that francophones, being the majority in numbers, would become the principle actors in the decision making process. People have to realize that things will never be the way they were in the pre-Confederation days, or even before the Quite Revolution, when people could have lived in Montreal and its outlying areas while ignoring the francophone majority that surrounded them. Many people left either because their company had moved or because they no longer felt they could live as they did prior. <br /><br />The changes in Quebec society has forced anglophones to use all their resources and create parties and interest groups that speak in their interests, at both levels of government. This is how many minorities around the globe fight for their rights and I don't see why English Quebeckers should be any different in this regard. Alliance Quebec, Equality Party etc... could have succeeded if they weren't single issue parties. If people start demanding for pre-Quite Revolution consociational agreements, your cause is already lost. Th focus must be on how to ensure community survival in a majoritarian democracy and in a society that's determined to preserve the predominance of its language. <br /><br />As for people's personal experiences, it's normal for anglophones to want to live in a more "English" place and vice versa, especially given Quebec's ambition to become assert its French character. I, for one, am undecided as to whether I should leave or stay due to linguistic barriers. However, I understand why francophones think they way they do and I don't hold it against them.Stevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-85700528743380626312012-07-06T12:21:52.667-04:002012-07-06T12:21:52.667-04:00Steven,
Cool post; could you please explain more ...Steven,<br /><br />Cool post; could you please explain more about majoritarian democracy versus a consociational one?<br /><br />John Krug,<br /><br />"You have no idea what they were really like on a personal level." <br />- Yet this is exactly what francophones say about anglophone abuse. What is the difference, from your eyes?JBGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-32759369865850643992012-07-06T11:57:00.621-04:002012-07-06T11:57:00.621-04:00Hahaha Jean le Baptiste, je suis d'accord avec...Hahaha Jean le Baptiste, je suis d'accord avec vous. J'ai dit que les lois ne sont pas convenables pour la tache<br /><br />Peut-être tu m'aurais compris si j'ai dit que les lois ne peuvent pas sauver une langue.?<br /><br />Peut-etre tu pensais que j'étais quelqu'un d'autre?<br /><br />Je suis curieux en savoir.JBGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-62349560758113476112012-07-06T09:35:09.085-04:002012-07-06T09:35:09.085-04:00Après on nous dira que les immigrés n'ont aucu...Après on nous dira que les immigrés n'ont aucune chance au Québec.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-78489819161284769182012-07-06T09:07:36.798-04:002012-07-06T09:07:36.798-04:00The problem is that you have had to read about it ...The problem is that you have had to read about it rather than having lived through it. You did not personally know some of the main actors as I have. You have no idea what they were really like on a personal level.John Krugnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-28631181155813671502012-07-06T08:47:50.277-04:002012-07-06T08:47:50.277-04:00Yannick, you are too young to understand what actu...Yannick, you are too young to understand what actually the situation was like. You had to have lived through it to do so. Reading about it does not suffice. My mother applied for a job at Canada Steamship Lines and was told to her face that the company did not hire Jews. One small example among many.Jonahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-46988501916398549932012-07-06T07:48:45.474-04:002012-07-06T07:48:45.474-04:00The Reconquest of Montreal is the most interesting...The Reconquest of Montreal is the most interesting and the most fascinating book that I have read on the subject.Michel Patricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01355096630819086323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-17467437092389195982012-07-06T01:24:14.364-04:002012-07-06T01:24:14.364-04:00Many people who post sensationalist stories about ...Many people who post sensationalist stories about how they were prosecuted about Bill 101 etc.. are completely missing the picture. Bill 101, and the Quite Revolution in general, was a direct assault against English speaking economic hegemony in Montreal (and yes, there was such an hegemony which is admitted by virtually every single historian. As the state expanded, more and more francophones got govt jobs and were able to complete with the English speaking businesses. Around the 60s, companies were already starting to move their head offices to TO and so this obviously filled a void for francophones to fill in. As francophones began to use their numbers to counter this reality, it's normal that the English speaking business elite eventually dwindled and would have no effect in affecting legislation. <br /><br />The only draconian aspect of Bill 22 in my opinion was the English testing required to attend English schools. I see nothing wrong with establishing French as Quebec's official language. It's the language spoken by the majority, so why shouldn't it be? The majority in Ontario speak English, therefore that's the official language. The majority in Nova Scotia speak English, therefore that's the official language. People must remember that Quebec really had no official languages prior to 1974, but only de facto ones. The main objective of subsequent language legislation was to essentially transform Quebec to a majoritarian democracy rather than a consociational one. I agree that the English community has had many difficulties since then such as exodus, declining enrollment in schools, and limited immigration from English speaking countries. As the community shrinks, so do its institutions. We must take charge of our community and make sure that we survive and thrive in a 21st century Quebec. <br /><br />My main motive in writing this response is to respond to all those compare Quebec to a modern day Nazi Germany and such. I can understand why many anglophones view themselves as an oppressed minority, but it is my personal belief that they feel this way because they refuse to accept the fact that Quebec is a majoritarian democracy, not a consociational one. Francophones no longer view the anglophones as the majority in Canada, but as a minority in Quebec. Once anglophones stop viewing Quebec as consociational, maybe people will be more rational in describing our situation in Quebec. <br /><br />Lastly, for anyone interested on the topic from both sides of the issue, I recommend the following books:<br /><br />"The Reconquest of Montreal" by David Levine and "Community Besieged" by Garth Stevenson.Stevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-46415856539057082392012-07-06T00:53:18.091-04:002012-07-06T00:53:18.091-04:00Mississauga,
Now you are being unpleasant.Mississauga,<br /><br />Now you are being unpleasant.Troyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09960771543572680283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-52176982555649050432012-07-06T00:48:00.181-04:002012-07-06T00:48:00.181-04:00Mississauga,
Just as Yannick pointed out, I was n...Mississauga,<br /><br />Just as Yannick pointed out, I was not writing about Montreal against any place outside of Quebec. I was writing about quality and cost of life in Chibougamau compared to those in Montreal.<br /><br />I did not try to insult. I simply did not understand your train of thought.Troyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09960771543572680283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-53162910672803710092012-07-05T23:34:27.499-04:002012-07-05T23:34:27.499-04:00way to go!! anon 5:21amway to go!! anon 5:21ampressnine401https://www.blogger.com/profile/06901474333675208108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-42399033774634479552012-07-05T22:11:37.256-04:002012-07-05T22:11:37.256-04:00Sorry man. Like your response to my comment furth...Sorry man. Like your response to my comment further above, I don't get your comment of 7:25pm. Are you feeling all right?Mr. Sauga to Troynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-68840664127443463702012-07-05T22:07:33.253-04:002012-07-05T22:07:33.253-04:00What is it you don't understand?
Rents and re...What is it you don't understand?<br /><br />Rents and restaurants may be A LITTLE cheaper in Montreal vs Toronto and other places, but that's only because the taxes eat more of your disposable income. If you've been renting in one particular place for a long time, you better stay there because of the rent control.<br /><br />I find cheaper groceries and better specials in Toronto as I've gone into grocery stores since leaving Montreal on visits. Gas costs less here too!<br /><br />As mentioned above, doctors in Quebec are nickeled and dimed to death by RAMQ; furthermore, their fee structure is very low, and now McGill is becoming another also-ran university that before too long will be turning out quacks. Sad, considering huge donations have been made to McGill in the past. You can be sure that will dissipate over time.<br /><br />Get it now?Mr. Sauga to Troynoreply@blogger.com