tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post6930619478717155499..comments2024-02-17T03:22:53.951-05:00Comments on No Dogs or Anglophones: Defending Quebec Values?Editorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05699783315783642466noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-19988961489237439392011-12-21T07:02:12.562-05:002011-12-21T07:02:12.562-05:00Momo, I wasn't aware that the french had been ...Momo, I wasn't aware that the french had been trying to "systematically trying to wipe off" native culture. What exactly are you referring to? The residence schools were a federal, anglo-canadian venture, and the french themselves have been gone for 250 years. Back when the french were still here, they had friendly relations with the natives.<br /><br />Nowadays there are native-language schools protected by provincial law; it's not something every province provides. Look up the law here : http://www.canlii.org/en/qc/laws/stat/rsq-c-i-14/latest/rsq-c-i-14.html<br /><br />So what exactly do you mean? Can you point to specific things? I'm eager to learn.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-90709851353530191812011-12-19T15:24:40.991-05:002011-12-19T15:24:40.991-05:00Everything in Quebec should be in Native languages...Everything in Quebec should be in Native languages. It is the French and the English together who brutally wiped out the peoples and their languages which are actually in danger of being lost. It doesn't matter if one, ten or five hundred people speak native languages or how much money it would cost or how much time it would take to learn. Any Francophone who thinks everyone should speak French due to "respecting those who were here first" should really bite his tongue and bite it hard. Let the French hypocrites have to live according to their beliefs of "respect" for the "culture" here in Quebec. The culture that the French themselves have been systematically trying to wipe off the face of the earth for hundreds of years. Hypocrites. Karma is a bitch.Momonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-15286429742192736482011-12-18T04:32:45.934-05:002011-12-18T04:32:45.934-05:00If you're trying to get me to say that plaster...If you're trying to get me to say that plastering a unilingual english town with unilingual french signs isn't douchey, you're going to be disapointed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-41344341168623439672011-12-17T10:31:50.921-05:002011-12-17T10:31:50.921-05:00Pointe Claire is a borough in west island. Hardly ...Pointe Claire is a borough in west island. Hardly anyone uses French there or in the near vicinity, as Pointe Claire sits in the middle of the non-French half of Montreal west of St Laurent blvd. Yet the borough was pressed into an expensive renaming campaign back in the day (back when people neither used nor even <i>spoke</i> French there). Amongst other things, the government required adding a hyphen between Pointe and Claire on signs that had "Pointe Claire" on them since Pointe Claire without the hyphen was deemed insufficiently French.<br /><br />But you say "it must make sense", yet from that point of view, francizing signage in Pointe Claire made as much <i>sense</i> as plastering Cree all over Quebec City.<br /><br />So why was it done in one place and not the other? Clearly, making sense is not all there is to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-66072680344497651222011-12-17T04:29:49.657-05:002011-12-17T04:29:49.657-05:00Well sure, but only where it makes sense, such as ...Well sure, but only where it makes sense, such as in or close to the actual concentrations of cree/algonquin/mohawk and others. Esperanto is dying or dead too, but no one is proposing to plaster signs in Toronto in it. You're being very disingenuous by proposing language on signs in areas where no one can read them. <br /><br />What is Pointe Claire, by the way?<br /><br />Also you totally missed the point about my aside about dead/living cultures. It wasn't related to the current discussion at all; I was mentionning it because we were discussing aboriginal culture. Ever since natives have been allowed to practice their culture again, there's been resurgence of old traditions; it's good that they were able to do this before the older generations died and the culture was lost forever. But realistically, there needs to be more than just repeating old traditions if the culture is to remain a living one. But this has nothing at all to do with signs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-39813668340406303082011-12-16T17:36:25.030-05:002011-12-16T17:36:25.030-05:00"But what would be the point to have Cree in ..."But what would be the point to have Cree in Quebec City? No one speaks cree there"<br /><br />What is the point of having French, double in size of all things, in Pointe Claire? Or in Parc Ex? Or in parts of Ottawa? Hardly anyone uses French there.<br /><br />The point of having Cree in Quebec City is the following: Quebec stands for promotion of "linguistic diversity", and one of the means of "promoting" of one "endangered" language known as "French" is a sign law. Thus logically, the sign law should be expanded to include other languages, some of which are REALLY endangered.<br /><br />"I think the efforts to preserve culture should be aimed at retaining a living culture, and not a dead one. "<br /><br />And let me take a wild guess - the French culture across the RoC is a "live" one. While all the non-French cultures in Quebec are "dead" ones. So cleanse Quebec of all non-French stuff, and promote French to death in the RoC. <br /><br />The problem with this is: who will make a call as to the "viability" or "morbidity" of a culture? Let me take another wild guess - it will be you, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-17466465829007450722011-12-16T17:10:51.048-05:002011-12-16T17:10:51.048-05:00Well no, I think that we should encourage natives ...Well no, I think that we should encourage natives to learn their ancestral languages and retain their cultural links. In my opinion, the residence schools were a horrible injustice visited upon them.<br /><br />But what would be the point to have Cree in Quebec City? No one speaks cree there. It'd be an empty facade. Same as french in Vancouver. <br /><br />English is special as it is the language of tourists, media and big companies : there's nowhere where it's useless. <br /><br />A bit off topic : I think the efforts to preserve culture should be aimed at retaining a living culture, and not a dead one. There are francophones in Nova Scotia who do the tap-dancing and singing of their grandfathers, it's all very quaint and rural.. and it has some value, but in the end the culture has to grow and adapt to modern times as well if it is to survive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-53785751869996297992011-12-16T15:45:33.817-05:002011-12-16T15:45:33.817-05:00Meant to say it would be fitting for Quebec City a...Meant to say it would be fitting for Quebec City and NOT for Vancouver to display signage in Cree (or in any non-official language)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-81013520805488231782011-12-16T15:43:56.289-05:002011-12-16T15:43:56.289-05:00"it makes as much sense in Quebec City as fre..."it makes as much sense in Quebec City as french does in Vancouver. "<br /><br />Why? If your mission, your raison d'etre, your politics, your proclamations and declarations are all about saving languages and cultures, it would make sense to promote other ones as well. Saying you're about "cultural diversity" while you're promoting French ONLY smacks of hypocrisy and dishonesty.<br /><br />Quebec is all about protection of "endangered" languages, BC isn't. Thus, it would be fitting for Quebec City and for Vancouver to display signage in Cree.<br /><br />But I know what you're going to say next. You're going to say: but Cree is not an "official" language. But as soon as you say that, you are no longer protecting the weak, you are protecting the official, i.e. those who have enough political power to offcialize themselves. In which case they are not so weak, are they? To become official one must be strong enough in terms of political power. Which means that the entire argument of "endangered language" on which Quebec language policy rests is one big fat lie.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-92094117089489133352011-12-16T15:03:31.546-05:002011-12-16T15:03:31.546-05:00Well, I don't live there, but I was under the ...Well, I don't live there, but I was under the impression that Quebec offered education in some native languages. Is that not true?<br /><br />As for Cree and Algonquin on signs, it makes as much sense in Quebec City as french does in Vancouver.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-29944246781137769862011-12-16T13:37:11.199-05:002011-12-16T13:37:11.199-05:00Anon December 15, 2011 11:56 AM: "In this glo...Anon December 15, 2011 11:56 AM: "In this globalization world where everything is slowly becomming corporate and homogenized, I think it's worth preserving different cultures before they become extinct."<br /><br />Ok, prove that you mean it. Organize your people to apply pressure on L'Assemblée nationale to adopt a motion requiring Cree and Algonquin wording on all signs in Quebec.<br /><br />Once this happens, I'll believe you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-77887110889821520152011-12-16T13:25:35.224-05:002011-12-16T13:25:35.224-05:00"In this globalization world where everything..."In this globalization world where everything is slowly becomming corporate and homogenized, I think it's worth preserving different cultures before they become extinct."<br /><br />The Quebecois couldn't care less about preserving other cultures. Most of them would be very happy if the English-speaking community of Quebec disappeared. They are also doing absolutely nothing to help preserve or protect aboriginal languages and cultures within their borders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-58637889244860890152011-12-15T21:02:38.975-05:002011-12-15T21:02:38.975-05:00And yet, it is the Quebeckers that are intolerant ...And yet, it is the Quebeckers that are intolerant and racist, and their paranoia is misplaced.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-52723038619274165922011-12-15T16:12:17.958-05:002011-12-15T16:12:17.958-05:00if the Quebec culture goes extinct and that's ...if the Quebec culture goes extinct and that's a very big IF!! then it's no great loss... To me Quebec culture boils down to the right to be STUPID!!! Any culture that promotes rabid hatred of les Autres deserves to die..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-57530342894563958112011-12-15T11:56:07.285-05:002011-12-15T11:56:07.285-05:00I think the rationale is that there is already lit...I think the rationale is that there is already little incentive to learn French if you live in Quebec ; like others have said before, it opens up only a few countries where one could probably make himself understood in english anyway. So why bother?<br /><br />The only incentive is that it facilitates dealing with the locals. The "problem" with rising billingualism is that it removes this incentive. If all the francophones know how to speak english, then unilingual anglophones will no longer need to bother to learn french. In the long term, it will force francophones to live in english outside of their homes in order to accomodate anglophone coworkers/customers.<br /><br />Inevitably, it will lead to the disparition of a distinctiveness in the world. In this globalization world where everything is slowly becomming corporate and homogenized, I think it's worth preserving different cultures before they become extinct.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-3578844319206772842011-12-15T11:33:30.481-05:002011-12-15T11:33:30.481-05:00> si vous vivez à Vienne,la valse prendra le pa...> si vous vivez à Vienne,la valse prendra le pas sur le tango. <br /><br />Encore une fois, ça change quoi? Moi je saurai comment faire dans un lieu comme dans l'autre. Pourquoi pas tout le monde? Pourquoi s'en tenir à un tel attachement nativiste? La liberté pour les uns n'est pas liberté pour les autres. Pour certains, la liberté consiste à faire ce que je veux faire là où je veux (et d'en être capable). Pour d'autres, c'est la possibilité de faire comme bon leur semble chez eux. Je ne comprends toujours pas comment un environnement compatible avec ces deux notions de liberté constitue un grand mal. "Tout en français pour faire plaisir à grand-maman" ça va finir un jour. J'aimerais mieux que ce soit remplacé par un environnement où l'on s'efforce (comme moi même j'ai fait) à apprendre et la valse et le tango. <br /><br />Désolé mais je ne comprends toujours pas l'importance de se ranger derrière des symboles.. L'érable, la couronne, et même la fleur de lys, ce sont, comme sur Facebook, des applis virtuelles faites par d'autres qui s'attendent à ce que je me les approprie pour exprimer mon individualisme (et pour les enrichir eux... pas moi). Quelle boutade, leur dis-je. S'il faut absolument jouer au jeu nationaliste, mieux vaut s'exprimer couramment dans autant de langues possibles afin de pouvoir sacrer son camp quand ça ne fait plus mon affaire.Apparatchiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-42982247849586929222011-12-15T07:48:10.600-05:002011-12-15T07:48:10.600-05:00"Il me semble que sur une piste de danse nous..."Il me semble que sur une piste de danse nous serions vachement plus avantagés à connaitre deux danses plutôt qu'une seule..."<br /><br />Sauf que si vous vivez à Vienne,la valse prendra le pas sur le tango.Jason Gendronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-82205414078294248622011-12-15T00:28:15.735-05:002011-12-15T00:28:15.735-05:00Completely agree with you adski. But I've alwa...Completely agree with you adski. But I've always found Orwell more sardonic than de Tocqueville...<br /><br />Your last paragraph actually brought back a memory I thought was gone forever. My grandfather (French-Canadian side) once told me how horrified he was on election night in 1976 to hear his own employees and fellow compatriots engage in lustful self-congratulation (which he says was not without a tinge of lunacy) upon learning the results. I think it's fairly easy to deduce who they'd voted for.<br /><br />"Finally, those TMR and Westmount mansions will be ours!" they all gleefully roared. Clearly someone had taken a snippet out of the FLQ manifesto from a few years earlier.<br /><br />That was 35 years ago. <br /><br />As municipalities, TMR and Westmount don't even have the square footage to accommodate the millions of French-Canadians who in 1976 believed it was their right to have a palatial home in an exclusive neighborhood. As it stands, most of the guys working Grand'pa's shop floor in 1976 have either died or are in a nursing home. I wonder how many of them got their wish.<br /><br />Granted, I deplore the historical discrimination against French-Canadians by English-Canadians. I say this both as a French-Canadian and an English-Canadian... and even as a spectator-immigrant-Canadian.<br /><br />We've certainly made some genuine progress, but I'm not so sure it couldn't have come about more harmoniously. <br /><br />My French-Canadian relatives were always distrustful of the nationalists who they believed were peddling nothing more than snake oil to a ragtag population that the politicians secretly held in contempt<br /><br />My family didn't suffer culturally because of a longstanding attitude that put a premium on rigorous multilingualism and cultural integration... for which I am most grateful to be the product and beneficiary.<br /><br />Today I can't help but roll my eyes at the bigots who say "it's not personal bilingualism we're against, it's institutional bilingualism we need to fight in order to preserve our culture". I can't stand them because I know it's possible to grow up at least perfectly bilingual and bi-cultural in this city, and what they want is to take it away. And if you think about it, what that really means is that they're promoting "sovereignty" rather than genuine cultural protectionism. And it infuriates them when I remind them that I succeeded so they can too. Ad hominem attacks speak louder than the words they use.<br />Oink.<br /><br />@ Jason Gendron<br />Ça change quoi dans le fond? Faut-il être orgueilleux au point de s'opposer farouchement au rigodon qu'on essaie de nous faire avaler? Souvent nos chers amis seppies invoquent "la diversité" comme leitmotiv. Pourquoi ne pas faire valse et tango? Il me semble que sur une piste de danse nous serions vachement plus avantagés à connaitre deux danses plutôt qu'une seule...Apparatchiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-36992827095931128502011-12-14T23:12:41.202-05:002011-12-14T23:12:41.202-05:00@Adski
Bonne observation.Je dirais que vous avez ...@Adski<br /><br />Bonne observation.Je dirais que vous avez une vision assez juste de l'état actuel de notre société.Sauf que nous ne détestons pas les danseurs professionnels pour leur talent mais bien parce qu'ils veulent nous faire valser tandis que nous voulons du tango.Jason Gendronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-26239105655972588732011-12-14T22:50:30.445-05:002011-12-14T22:50:30.445-05:00Calgary Anon: "They went from Union Nationale...Calgary Anon: "They went from Union Nationale in the 40's, to Liberals in the 60's, to PQ in the 70's, To Liberals again, to almost ADQ recently, and right now it seems like the CAQ might steal the show on both the Liberals and the PQ."<br /><br />Yawn...<br /><br />Albertans might have not changed, but neither have the Quebeckers. The quiet revolution hasn't removed a trace of the attitudes inculcated and cultivated in the Quebec population by the Catholic church and the ultra-conservative elites prior to the 1960's. If anything, the quiet revolution gave an outlet to these sentiments and made them worse by putting the power of a modern state behind them.<br /><br />The Union Nationale, the PLQ, the PQ, the ADQ, and now the CAQ - it's all a continuum and a repository of the same values and attitudes. A fancier and more shiny packaging maybe, by inside it's the same stuff.<br /><br />Consumerism and materialism might have displaced the Catholic dogma, but the underlying anglophobia (fear of English <i>speakers</i>) mixed with a contradictory infatuation and obsession with the English <i>language</i> (an almost schizophrenic attitude comparable to loving to dance but hating professional dancers, or accepting them as long as they dance in Boston, New York, or Toronto, but not in Montreal, where the only ones allowed to <i>improvise</i> dancing under controlled conditions are our elites); cultural grandiosity, superiority, and arrogance mixed with the contradictory cultural insecurity and inferiority; the besieged fortress mentality; and the cynical Outremont elite manipulating it all... it's all alive and well. Very well, in fact.<br /><br />The pigs might chased out the abusive farmer in the 1960's, but once in the manor, they had nothing to offer but more of the same shit (they did put golden finishings on the walls in the newly taken over CN offices, in the purest display of vanity and the "now it's our turn" attitude of Orwellian pigs). De Tocqueville was puzzled how much the newly emerged "elites" in the post-revolutionary France took after the Ancient Regime. Well, he shouldn't have. Orwell understood it much better, as he penned the Animal Farm. <br /><br />Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose...Au Quebec, et partout ailleurs...adskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-84777808391956579162011-12-14T21:18:49.280-05:002011-12-14T21:18:49.280-05:00Quebec is a *little* different from other province...Quebec is a *little* different from other provinces. <br /><br />Take Alberta, so stuck in its ways that it's been voting the conservatives in for 30 years with no interruption. Before that, Alberta voted in Social Credit with no interruption for another 30 years. Soc. Credit and Conservatives both being right-wing parties, you see that Alberta people don't exactly show a lot of open mindedness.<br /><br />In Quebec, it's the exact opposite. They went from Union Nationale in the 40's, to Liberals in the 60's, to PQ in the 70's, To Liberals again, to almost ADQ recently, and right now it seems like the CAQ might steal the show on both the Liberals and the PQ.<br /><br />Alberta and Quebec are exact polar opposites of each other; it might be why there is so much anti-francophone sentiment emanating from this province.<br /><br />I haven't lived in Quebec, but if I compare to Ontario the lifestyle is very different as well. Alberta is the very definition of the urban sprawl and suburban lifestyle; downtown is absolutely dead after 5 PM on weekdays to the point where Starbucks isn't even open downtown in the weekend or after 5. The downtown is where people work, but afterwards they go back to their suburbs and that's where they get their entertainment as well as do their shopping. There isn't even major movie theatres in the downtown area, and the major malls are all located a fair distance from the downtown.<br /><br />In comparison other metropolitans like Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton and Montreal (which I've visited, though I haven't lived there) have an entirely different dynamic ; people actually do go downtown and do things there.<br /><br />But then, it might actually be Alberta that is the "Société Distincte" rather than Quebec. Thoughts?Calgary Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-22008692795045962742011-12-14T19:57:18.665-05:002011-12-14T19:57:18.665-05:00@ Anonymous 2:35
Correct on both points.
@ Anonym...@ Anonymous 2:35<br />Correct on both points.<br /><br />@ Anonymous 4:32<br />The "we're so different" arrow is the only one left in the seppie quiver and its days are numbered. I agree that we have more in common than our self-appointed intelligentsia would have us believe. We all have to eat, drink, sleep, and poop. And while some francophones still buy the garbage, many more are realizing just how much our nationalist elites have been screwing us over all this time.Apparatchiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-2472342591271454752011-12-14T16:32:05.925-05:002011-12-14T16:32:05.925-05:00A common trend among Quebec politicians is to reve...A common trend among Quebec politicians is to revert to Quebec society being so different than from the rest of Canada and different from English society. It's nothing but a political tool they use to get elected and or get re-elected. It's really starting to mess with everyone's mind. <br /><br />As I work in charter bus tourism industry, I have the opportunity to travel in Canada and I can say without a doubt, Quebec is no different from the rest of Canada, besides speaking French. Politicians hungry for more powers and separatists looking to make Quebec it's own country have been lying to Quebecers about them being different from the rest of Canada. <br /><br />As soon as they don't get their own way, they stamp their feet and put the 'Separation' issue front and center. Something must be done to finally put this to rest !!! Thankfully, even francophones are tired of listening to all this garbage now !!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-52695523382936520362011-12-14T14:35:05.947-05:002011-12-14T14:35:05.947-05:00Bullying
Would that be if we don't get our wa...Bullying<br /><br />Would that be if we don't get our way we are going to leave?<br /><br />"battered person syndrome<br /><br />Would that be, we need laws such as 101 in order to preserve our threatened language and culture or we need more transfer payments due to the "fiscal imbalance" created through our own overly generous social programs?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7963035472241877292.post-43348797232190597622011-12-14T13:13:31.135-05:002011-12-14T13:13:31.135-05:00> As I said the differences are irreconciable. ...> As I said the differences are irreconciable. Quebec has utilized both political weight and issues such as language and culture to achieve their ends. (threats of separation being the most utilized) This is thought as contemptible in much of the rest of Canada. Further, this attitude seems to be one or entitelment by Quebec.<br /><br />The only thing that is irreconcilable is pushing around one's political weight and when that fails playing political theater to get one's way, rather than appealing to reason. Bullying, and conversely battered person syndrome, both have their roots in short-circuiting reason.<br /><br />There's more to the supposed issue than meets the eye.Apparatchiknoreply@blogger.com